Living Car Free - Belt Drive...

I notice that Trek has some bikes with belt instead of chain drive like Harley-Davidson motorcycles do. If any car-free have one of these I'd like to read how they perform in the snow and dirt conditions of transportation cycling. Also is there potential for home-brew substitute belts in case they cease to be manufactured in future years.

I notice that Trek has some bikes with belt instead of chain drive like Harley-Davidson motorcycles do. If any car-free have one of these I'd like to read how they perform in the snow and dirt conditions of transportation cycling. Also is there potential for home-brew substitute belts in case they cease to be manufactured in future years.

I doubt that there are a single worry about performance in ANY kind of weather or in any place.

Remember , the toothed belt has been used on both gas & diesel engines for decades so the
technology is well proven in all commercial markets as well as all industrial markets.

Bicycle applications were just waiting on the makers to catch up so cyclist ,too, could enjoy
the benefits of the toothed belt. :thumb:

It looks Trek is marketing it for utility riders and snowy/muddy conditions. Also for people who are too "busy" to lube and change chains? ;)

One issue with the belt is that you would have to break the frame to replace the belt... although belts might last as long as 50000 kms.

http://www.velonews.com/files/images/EccentricDropTBbike.Thumbnail2.JPG

The other problem is that you can use a derailleur with them, so I think you are stuck with single speeds.

The other problem is that you can use a derailleur with them, so I think you are stuck with single speeds.

I think there's a typo--you probably meant cannot use a dreailleur.

Internal gear hubs would be an alternative to SS.

Spot makes a 3 speed geared version using a internal hub.

http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/urban/district/district/

Look closely at the rear of the frame. It appears to be bolted together to allow one to change the belt.

I really like the idea of belt drive. Unfortunately for me I already have a couple of good bikes that work OK. I want to get another recumbent. It will probably be years before all companies adopt belt drives. I think the concept will take off once belts are available on $300.00 models.

Y'all are missing their biggest disadvantage: you can't change your gearing without finding a belt that exactly fits. The size of the frame and the gearing change the length of belt that you need. Now, this is fine for Trek, but bad for you and I.

Y'all are missing their biggest disadvantage: you can't change your gearing without finding a belt that exactly fits. The size of the frame and the gearing change the length of belt that you need. Now, this is fine for Trek, but bad for you and I.

Well, No. Anybody ever hear of, or see, a belt idler/tensioner pully? :innocent:

The Soho with an 8 speed internal hub looks like a good idea. But where I live, having only 8 speeds would be awfully limiting.

The Soho with an 8 speed internal hub looks like a good idea. But where I live, having only 8 speeds would be awfully limiting.

Rohloff makes a 14 speed internal hub. It indexes in the hub itself and not on the shifter which makes it always shift perfect regardless of any "cable stretch."

It also runs in an oil bath and supposedly one has never failed as far as the company knows. They are over designed and are the single greatest thing in the world if you ask me! : )

They are expensive though but a good answer if you depend upon your bike to work the way that you do if you are in this forum.

Bicycle applications were just waiting on the makers to catch up so cyclist ,too, could enjoy the benefits of the toothed belt. :thumb:


Well, No. Anybody ever hear of, or see, a belt idler/tensioner pully? :innocent:

Tell me again; what are the benefits of the toothed belt over a $5 chain on a standard bicycle?

Tell me again; what are the benefits of the toothed belt over a $5 chain on a standard bicycle?

Lubrication

Rust

Stretch

Chain ring wear

Cog wear

I have read your posts long enough to know that you only enjoy mocking everything on here so I dont expect this to change your mind. I think it would be a huge improvement though.

Tell me again; what are the benefits of the toothed belt over a $5 chain on a standard bicycle?

Real simple.......Less to no vibration with increased life and zero maintaince.

Then there is the fact that $5 doesn't buy much quality in anything anymore...even bike chains.

The last cheap chain I bought cost $8.

The last cheap chain I bought cost $8.


I was going to say something about that. multispeed Walmart chains are 8 dollars and some change but I thought maybe he knew of a single speed chain that was cheaper.

Real simple.......Less to no vibration with increased life and zero maintaince.


Vibration? What the heck are you talking about? Maintenance? Spray once a month, replace once a year. 15 minutes total time. Yearly cost cost? $8-$12 for chain and a can of spray silicone. Good for at least 5000 miles.


Then there is the fact that $5 doesn't buy much quality in anything anymore...even bike chains.
Really? What's the difference between an xmart 1/8" chain for IGH and the same size chain sold at your favorite LBS, other than the brand name on the package and the price?

I guess $8 vice $5 is the deal breaker and encourages some wizards to seek an esoteric drive system of who knows what cost, so be it.:roflmao2:

Vibration? What the heck are you talking about? Maintenance? Spray once a month, replace once a year. 15 minutes total time. Yearly cost cost? $8-$12 for chain and a can of spray silicone. Good for at least 5000 miles.


Really? What's the difference between an xmart 1/8" chain for IGH and the same size chain sold at your favorite LBS, other than the brand name on the package and the price?


Beveled edges might be the #1 thing. THe walmart chains work...I used them for about 10,000 miles but they do not work as well.

I dont know of any differences for a single speed set up.

I guess $8 vice $5 is the deal breaker and encourages some wizards to seek an esoteric drive system of who knows what cost, so be it.:roflmao2:

I'm riding a bike with only a 7-speed cog right now so the cheap chain is fine. But the last cheapie I bought cost $8, not $5 when I bought it at a discount hardware store (ACO).

When I've had bikes with 8 or 9 cogs, chains cost more. I remember paying $21 one time. That does seem like a rip-off. Those chains are made with less metal, so they should be cheaper, right?

I'm riding a bike with only a 7-speed cog right now so the cheap chain is fine. But the last cheapie I bought cost $8, not $5 when I bought it at a discount hardware store (ACO).

When I've had bikes with 8 or 9 cogs, chains cost more. I remember paying $21 one time. That does seem like a rip-off. Those chains are made with less metal, so they should be cheaper, right?

Gee... I've been paying $15 - 20 at my LBS for 7 and 9 speed. The Nashbar 7/8 speed chain is now on sale for $11.99 but is normally $19.99.

Vibration? What the heck are you talking about? Maintenance? Spray once a month, replace once a year. 15 minutes total time. Yearly cost cost? $8-$12 for chain and a can of spray silicone. Good for at least 5000 miles.


Really? What's the difference between an xmart 1/8" chain for IGH and the same size chain sold at your favorite LBS, other than the brand name on the package and the price?


I guess $8 vice $5 is the deal breaker and encourages some wizards to seek an esoteric drive system of who knows what cost, so be it.:roflmao2:

If you want the hassel of buying chain oil , doing the work of oiling, all the mess of oiling etc.
then have at it. If I get a chance to avoid those expenses of both time & money then I'm
all for it.

As to vibration..... yes, there is vibration. One of the last projects I worked on was converting
camshaft chain drives in engines to toothed belt drive. The data on low amplitude vibration
was simply amazing and accounted for many early hour cam failures we were trying to avoid.
So the vibration is there on a bicycle but you can't "feel" it but it is nibbling the mating parts
to nothing in time.

Belt drives on bicycles have been around a long time. The Japanese went through that fad about ten or fifteen years ago. Considering that most of their bicycles are single or three-speed, I am not sure why the trend faded.

There is certainly no concern about the performance of a drive belt. I have seen drive belts transmit power of 150 hp at 12 rpm on a 24 hour basis.

For internal geared hubs or single speeds, it seems like an ideal drive transmittion.

I guess $8 vice $5 is the deal breaker and encourages some wizards to seek an esoteric drive system of who knows what cost, so be it.:roflmao2:

translates into "oh god something new. kill it! kill it!"

Tell me again; what are the benefits of the toothed belt over a $5 chain on a standard bicycle?

Without question, the number one advantage of a belt drive over a chain drive is that it is clean.

For your average Joe commuter who walks out of his house in his work clothes, hops on his bicycle and rides to work or the station, this is a huge advantage.

Maintanance is another factor, of course, but most of the world's commuter bikes probably never see an oil can or a chain replacement.

The biggest practical advantage of a belt drive over a chain is the lack of necessary maintenance. And, let's face it, the vast majority of bicycle owners (that's the majority of ALL bike owners, not just the ones who are seriously into bike ownership and being on bike forums) aren't exactly great when it comes to maintenance. Need proof? Just go looking for another second-hand bike to refurbish for daily use.

There's a rebirth of what I've always called the 'working bike' going on. A bike used for the day to day grind by people who aren't necessarily in to the wonderfulness of the bicycle. A pedal equivalent of the Corolla and Camry - unexciting, simple, reliable, built to do the transportation job day in day out with little care on the part of the owner. 35 years ago, this described the 3-speed English roadster. Now we're looking at something that technology allows to be a bit more sporting in performance, not that the buyer is going to be looking for sporting (if he wants that, he can get a derailleur bike), while still being stone cold reliable and boring. I can see a toothed belt taking over this market completely.

Low to non-existant maintenance. Should your trouser leg get caught in the chainwheel, you're not going to necessarily tear the fabric, nor are you going to ruin it with oil stains. Can't change gear ratios easily? Non-existant problem. Probably 99% of the 3-speed roadster riders never varied from the factory gear ratios. It didn't enter into their consciousness.

Yeah, I can see where a modern roadster with belt drive and a 3-8 speed internal hub could really be a plus in getting people to commute by bike.

Yeah, I can see where a modern roadster with belt drive and a 3-8 speed internal hub could really be a plus in getting people to commute by bike.

THIS is where it will be , and needs to be, for the Joe Average's of America to ride bikes enmass. :thumb:

The line to buy one forms behind me!!

Well, No. Anybody ever hear of, or see, a belt idler/tensioner pully? :innocent:

I have never seen one on a stock bicycle (or motorcycle) that came with a belt drive. I have also never seen an after market one meant for a bicycle that would let you backpedal with a coaster brake or a fixed gear.

I have never seen one on a stock bicycle (or motorcycle) that came with a belt drive.

Buell Motorcycles have tensioners for their belt drives. The optimum tension helps the suspension and drivetrain run smoothly.

I have never seen one on a stock bicycle (or motorcycle) that came with a belt drive. I have also never seen an after market one meant for a bicycle that would let you backpedal with a coaster brake or a fixed gear.

Don't know why one couldn't be used. I have never seen a coaster brake bike with a chain tensioner either...

I think there is definitely a place for belt drive as skyerocker has pointed out. They would be cleaner and possibly cheaper than the current 100+ year old technology we are using:p

Aaron:)

The Soho with an 8 speed internal hub looks like a good idea. But where I live, having only 8 speeds would be awfully limiting.

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/news/newsDetail/2055.html
"Trek Bicycle is introducing two new single speed urban bikes in January that will feature carbon composite belt drives instead of chains.

"We took a hard look at our urban line," said Eric Bjorling, Trek's lifestyle brand manager. "These bikes provide a lower barrier to entry with simple, low maintenance."

The 2009 Soho will retail for $990, while the District will retail for $930."

The District is a single speed! But it will save $5 or $10 year on chain costs and 10 minutes of maintenance a year and be oh so high tech!:roflmao2:

Don't know why one couldn't be used. I have never seen a coaster brake bike with a chain tensioner either...
For good reason. What possible reason would anyone equip a coaster brake bike with such a useless appendage? It certainly wouldn't make them simpler or easier to maintain.

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/news/newsDetail/2055.html
"Trek Bicycle is introducing two new single speed urban bikes in January that will feature carbon composite belt drives instead of chains.

"We took a hard look at our urban line," said Eric Bjorling, Trek's lifestyle brand manager. "These bikes provide a lower barrier to entry with simple, low maintenance."

The 2009 Soho will retail for $990, while the District will retail for $930."

The District is a single speed! But it will save $5 or $10 year on chain costs and 10 minutes of maintenance a year and be oh so high tech!:roflmao2:


The fact that you think they are worthless only makes me want one more. They must be pretty good.

The fact that you think they are worthless only makes me want one more. They must be pretty good.
Nonsense. The described bike makes perfect sense for someone like you. Enjoy your "freedom" from maintenance and telling me off by your unique thought process for making buying decisions.:roflmao2:

Don't forget to let us know what it costs to retrofit it to your "maintenance free" Rohloff, and what it costs in time and money to replace the belt after the predicted 3 year life span.

It reads like no one has ridden one yet. I have to admit on my bike with a fully enclosed chain case and 8 speed hub I rarely do chain maintenance. I have a look at it at each tire change. There is also no dirt getting on my clothes. The chain picks up a layer of dust that seeps in through the cracks and edges of the chain case. I wipe it off with a rag and put some automotive wheel bearing grease and its good till the next tire change. I haven't replaced the chain. Chains last several years for me. I don't replace them until I get cog skipping or chain suck. I'll be anxious to hear how the belt drives work in the car-free world of snow and dirt. It looks to me like the teeth on a chain ring pop mud and gunk out of the chain but the slots on a toothed belt drive might retain gunk until the belt starts to slip.

Nonsense. The described bike makes perfect sense for someone like you. Enjoy your "freedom" from maintenance and telling me off by your unique thought process for making buying decisions.:roflmao2:

Don't forget to let us know what it costs to retrofit it to your "maintenance free" Rohloff, and what it costs in time and money to replace the belt after the predicted 3 year life span.

I-Like-To-Bike's maintenence-free and chain-free bicycle:

http://www.pedalinghistory.com/Images/highwhel.gif

"We took a hard look at our urban line," said Eric Bjorling, Trek's lifestyle brand manager. [U]"These bikes provide a lower barrier to entry with simple, low maintenance."





Don't forget to let us know what it costs to retrofit it to your "maintenance free" Rohloff, and what it costs in time and money to replace the belt after the predicted 3 year life span.

The "lower barrier" statement means "market resistance to change" that some always have. :notamused:


You know.......the folk's getting drug outta their horse & buggy...whip still in hand.:roflmao2:

I can see a toothed belt taking over this ((commuter)) market completely.

:D You know which market of bikes needs belt drive the most? The $100 x-mart bikes. People rarely spend a dime to maintain them and I see these things being ridden around the streets with rusty chains quite often.

with coaster brake and belt drive, you'd have a bike that even the walmart-bike market wouldn't mess up too badly.

:D You know which market of bikes needs belt drive the most? The $100 x-mart bikes. People rarely spend a dime to maintain them and I see these things being ridden around the streets with rusty chains quite often.

with coaster brake and belt drive, you'd have a bike that even the walmart-bike market wouldn't mess up too badly.

Actually, that's a pretty good point.

Face it, ILTB, you're a luddite.

-Kurt

I-Like-To-Bike's maintenence-free and chain-free bicycle:

The chain on my bike and just about everybody else's is virtually maintenance free now. Only the gadget freaks and obsessive-compulsive types seem to be excited about a pricey solution to a virtual non-existent problem. It is up to Trek now to see if they can create a demand for the gimmicky bike they wish to supply in the absence of any public demand for this latest greatest device.

I've been riding a single-speed, kevlar belt-drive bike for a year now and am enamored with the performance. If you haven't ridden a belt drive you don't know what you're missing (or dissing in ILTB's case - some people resist change, so be it). I am very intrigued with Trek's offerings and will be checking them out soon at the LBS. I like the simplicity of a single-speed but an 8-speed hub would be handy for longer rides over varying terrain. May have to change my handle to beltstrainer.

The biggest practical advantage of a belt drive over a chain is the lack of necessary maintenance.

I guess that makes sense. I have never thought of chain maintenance as any sort of a burden, but when I ride past people with squeaky rusty chains it is clear that this is too much for some people.

Why is this in LCF, anyways? This is "Living Car Free", not "Living Chain Free" :roflmao2:.

I've been riding a single-speed, kevlar belt-drive bike for a year now and am enamored with the performance. If you haven't ridden a belt drive you don't know what you're missing (or dissing in ILTB's case - some people resist change, so be it). I am very intrigued with Trek's offerings and will be checking them out soon at the LBS. I like the simplicity of a single-speed but an 8-speed hub would be handy for longer rides over varying terrain. May have to change my handle to beltstrainer.
Actual experience. I noticed a folding bike with belt drive. I think people who use bikes for transportation might be more interested in the lack of chain grease on their nice work pants than the minimal reduction in maintenance time.

I've been riding a single-speed, kevlar belt-drive bike for a year now and am enamored with the performance. If you haven't ridden a belt drive you don't know what you're missing (or dissing in ILTB's case - some people resist change, so be it).
What exactly am I missing? Performance in what sense? Speed, reliability or what? I am allegedly "dissing" a questionable gimmicky, costly "solution/fix" to an insignificant or non existent problem.

How much did the "benefit" of replacing a standard chain with a belt driven system cost you? Any pictures of what I assume is a custom built "simple" single speed bike featuring this simple feature.

Am I doing something wrong? I'm reading on this thread of getting five to ten thousand miles on an eight to twelve dollar chain. The last inexpensive chain I bought lasted only a few hundred miles before it was toast. I might get, with regular maintenance, a two or three thousand miles on a really good chain, and that's my summer bike, even less on the winter bike.

ILTB, i'm glad you have a clean city to cycle in.

At our shop, our members are often cleaning their drivetrains as often as 2 weeks, due to the level of road grime during seasonal cycles. Proper chain cleaning requires about 10 minutes (chain cleaner and degreaser, allowing the chain to dry, applying lubricant, removing exceess). I presume you only need to do yours once a year based on your report, or that you don't care to take it that far.

Overall, its easy to spend several hours over the course of a year maintaining a chain depending on your riding habits, as well as replacing a chain and cassette everytime there's a good winter season. I think there's a definite market for something like this, to people whom ride in varying conditions with high maintenance potential.

On the flip side, there's also the halfway solution a bicycle manufacturer could make of simply using a full chainguard.

As for changing ratios, I would presume that some adjustment could be made with an eccentric bottom bracket, and by sizing the two belt sprockets in tandem with each other. Size one down, size one up. You know. Bit of a pain in the ass, I suppose.

In the photos, it also looks to me like the dropout itself is designed to have some adjustment.

Personally, I would just rather have the full chainguard were I looking for a bike like this at the moment, there's not a lot of word on pricing for replacing the belt drives and components and what difficulty, if any will arise from trying to obtain different sized pulleys for the crank and hub.

ILTB, i'm glad you have a clean city to cycle in.

At our shop, our members are often cleaning their drivetrains as often as 2 weeks, due to the level of road grime during seasonal cycles. Proper chain cleaning requires about 10 minutes (chain cleaner and degreaser, allowing the chain to dry, applying lubricant, removing exceess). I presume you only need to do yours once a year based on your report, or that you don't care to take it that far.
No, I ride on the road to include at least 3 months of icy salty roads. And No, I don't have a heated shop in which to play, Mr. Clean nor the benefit of warm winters for outside bike cleaning either.

I don't doubt that some fastidious "members" of your shop spend lots of time cleaning their drivetrains. I am skeptical of the value of spending so much time and energy on the routine described on a $5-$10 part.

In addition, where does all this cleaning and degreasing take place in the winter time for those who are not "members" with access to a heated shop? Do BF people really bring frozen bikes dripping with winter slop inside their home to defrost all over the place in order to clean/degrease this $5 chain? And then return the bike to the frozen outside and keep repeating the freeze/defrost process, all for the benefit of a "proper cleaning?" Or do they work on the chain outside and freeze their hands as well as everything else, for this "proper" cleaning of a chain that works just fine without a lick of cleaning.


My chain and IGH drive train works fine for 5000 miles (one year of all weather condition commuting) with no cleaning whatsoever and only minimum application of spray lubrication every now and then. I'm now on the seventh winter (over 30,000 miles) of commuting on the current bike; drive train maintenance, outside of a yearly chain replacement, has been replacing the rear sprocket twice (a five minute job after taking the rear wheel off), and the front sprocket once. But then I do not maintain an obsessive compulsion for "proper" maintenance IAW the Shop Manual.

ILTB, can we see a picture of your chain? If I go even 2 months without cleaning my chain, road dirt and debris are going to start to sling grease mud everywhere.

ILTB, can we see a picture of your chain? If I go even 2 months without cleaning my chain, road dirt and debris are going to start to sling grease mud everywhere.
On my bike without a full chain guard, I have taken to using this wax lube. I just put a little on a rag and wipe it down every few rides. More if I go in weather. But my rough weather bike has the fully enclosed chain guard, I only look at the chain at tire changing time. My real beater that I use to lock up for long periods in sketchy neighborhoods has a rusty chain that I occasionally lube.