Southern California - Ticketing in Hermosa Beach

Just a PSA: I saw a group of cyclists being written up today, apparently for running a stop sign on Hermosa Ave. You can't say they didn't have a warning, as there was one of those portable electric message boards flashing a message about cyclists obeying stop signs and yielding to pedestrians about two blocks away. Still, something to watch out for if you ride through there.

I saw hermosa cops on motorcycles this morning swarming the area and ticketing lots of people. i guess they choose to ignore the open and blatant marijuana usage at the pier area to ticket bicyclists

yeah every once in a while the HBPD gets some wild hair up their arse and starts ticketing cyclists en masse. the 'didn't put one foot down at stop sign to indicate a complete stop' is one of their favorites.

the 'didn't put one foot down at stop sign to indicate a complete stop' is one of their favorites.

Fortunately, putting your foot on the ground is not a requirement for being completely stopped.

When you drive a car and you stop at the stop sign do you open your door and put your foot on the pavement?

argue this point with the police officer before he gives you a ticket, but if necessary then fight it in court.

Many thanks for the heads up...I haven't heard of this happening in Hermosa, only Redondo.

This is a shameless revenue generating effort, regardless of any other excuse offered by Hermosa Beach, Redondo Beach, or any other local city hall. I was tagged just a few months ago in Redondo...my stop was not unsafe in any manner and there were no pedestrians in sight. Unfortunately (or, fortunately, depending on how you look at it), it just wasn't economical for me to devote several hours of my time to fight the ridiculous charge. Indeed, it's likely that any local judge will be equally aware of any local budget shortfall, and would have ruled against me anyway.

With the economy slowing and property tax revenues reversing, cities will increasingly rely on ticketing cyclists for this petty offense. I imagine the cops are under intense pressure to generate their quota...though I still wish great misfortune upon them for their particpation. I'll bet Hermosa City Hall increased spending on fixed expenses under the assumption the real estate boom would continue forever. If you know otherwise, please correct me. Until then, I'll assume this is the rigged game we must live with until the budget problems get so severe, the cities finally give in and cut their bloated budgets properly, rather than "plug the gap" with $175 bicycle tickets.

Thanks for the heads-up.

When you get a ticket cycling, does it go on your driving record just as getting ticketed while driving a car?

I know someone who years back had gotten a ticket for exceeding the posted 8 mph speed limit on the strand in Hermosa. Before his court date he met another cyclist who got cited for the same thing. This other cyclist did some homework and found that it was against state law for a municipality to post a speed limit below 15 mph. The guy I know later got a notice from the city of Hermosa that his case had been dropped. The strand still has the 8 mph signs, but apparently they can't cite you for exceeding the 8 mph, assuming that law is still on the books.

When you get a ticket cycling, does it go on your driving record just as getting ticketed while driving a car?

It's not supposed to - although it may take some phone calls to the court clerk just to be sure.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d02/vc1803.htm


1803 (b) The following violations are not required to be reported under subdivision (a):
...
(6) Violations for which a person was cited as a pedestrian or while operating a bicycle or a motorized scooter.

Fortunately, putting your foot on the ground is not a requirement for being completely stopped.

When you drive a car and you stop at the stop sign do you open your door and put your foot on the pavement?

argue this point with the police officer before he gives you a ticket, but if necessary then fight it in court.
Correct, and bring your bike in to court if you can track stand to prove the point.


It's not supposed to - although it may take some phone calls to the court clerk just to be sure.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d02/vc1803.htm
A good reason to carry a state ID instead of driver's license.

I heard a story from a triathlon guy at our school about how he got ticketed for not putting his foot down even though he did completely stop. So he went to court, with his bike and did a track stand for a full minute in front of the judge and won his case, haha.

Many thanks for the heads up...I haven't heard of this happening in Hermosa, only Redondo.

This is a shameless revenue generating effort, regardless of any other excuse offered by Hermosa Beach, Redondo Beach, or any other local city hall. I was tagged just a few months ago in Redondo...my stop was not unsafe in any manner and there were no pedestrians in sight. Unfortunately (or, fortunately, depending on how you look at it), it just wasn't economical for me to devote several hours of my time to fight the ridiculous charge. Indeed, it's likely that any local judge will be equally aware of any local budget shortfall, and would have ruled against me anyway.

With the economy slowing and property tax revenues reversing, cities will increasingly rely on ticketing cyclists for this petty offense. I imagine the cops are under intense pressure to generate their quota...though I still wish great misfortune upon them for their particpation. I'll bet Hermosa City Hall increased spending on fixed expenses under the assumption the real estate boom would continue forever. If you know otherwise, please correct me. Until then, I'll assume this is the rigged game we must live with until the budget problems get so severe, the cities finally give in and cut their bloated budgets properly, rather than "plug the gap" with $175 bicycle tickets.


Here we go again. :rolleyes:

I have no idea how these local .gov's are doing, but I doubt they're making or breaking their budgets on the backs of a bunch of roadies who runstop signs. Check it out here, if you really want to know: http://www.hermosabch.org/departments/finance/docs/2008-09_Adopted_Budget-For_WEB.pdf


It sucks, but it's just one of the costs of using the public roadways, IMO. :twitchy:

"NYC On Ticket Blitz; 200 Traffic Agents Added
Better Be On Your Best Behavior With Your Car Because Cash-Strapped City Is Out To Raise $66 Million
Manhattan To Get 100 Agents; Staten Island Spared ... For Now
NEW YORK (CBS) November 26, 2008 ― You may have begun to notice more traffic tickets being written. And you may have guessed -- correctly -- that it has to do with getting New York City more money. Well, brace yourselves, the city is putting 200 more ticket-writing traffic agents to work.

The city's latest move to close the budget gap is annoying New Yorkers to no end. Soon, you may not be able to avoid the police no matter what you do. Approximately 100 of the agents will be in Manhattan; the other 100 will be spread out across the other boroughs..."

*************************************************

And regarding that Hermosa Beach budget...I breezed through it quickly (thanks for the post) and "Fines and Forfeitures" are indeed projected to account for an increasing dollar amount and an increasing percent of next year's revenues. Now, I'm assuming that's the category in which H.B. classifies these revenues. Again, if you know otherwise, please post to correct me.

Here we go again. :rolleyes:

I have no idea how these local .gov's are doing, but I doubt they're making or breaking their budgets on the backs of a bunch of roadies who runstop signs. Check it out here, if you really want to know: http://www.hermosabch.org/departments/finance/docs/2008-09_Adopted_Budget-For_WEB.pdf


It sucks, but it's just one of the costs of using the public roadways, IMO. :twitchy:

Yup. I just wish cops would focus more energy on violent crime, instead of ticketing cyclists.

What's with the 8mph signs on the MUP along Hermosa? I understand that this one segment of the path is MUP, as opposed to being posted "Bikes Only", but please, 8mph? I'm more of a danger at 8 miles per hour than I am at 15.

The path is wide enough in that area they could easily designate a bike lane, and pedestrian lane, similar to the San Fernando Valley Orange Line bike path.

It's not that I have a great desire to go screaming along the path at top speed, but getting through that segment really adds a seeming eternity to the ride from Pacific Palasades to Palos Verdes and back.

What's with the 8mph signs on the MUP along Hermosa? I understand that this one segment of the path is MUP, as opposed to being posted "Bikes Only", but please, 8mph? I'm more of a danger at 8 miles per hour than I am at 15.

The path is wide enough in that area they could easily designate a bike lane, and pedestrian lane, similar to the San Fernando Valley Orange Line bike path.

It's not that I have a great desire to go screaming along the path at top speed, but getting through that segment really adds a seeming eternity to the ride from Pacific Palasades to Palos Verdes and back.

At that point I jump off the path and onto the street.

Hell, I break 8mph doing a 5 mile run... ticket a pedestrian for speeding!

At that point I jump off the path and onto the street.
Agreed coming from manhattan beach the bike path takes you onto the side of the street, to get onto the path you've actually got to make a right turn. Coming from Redondo Beach you're already on the street and again you've got to make a left. The 8mph speed limit is way to slow imho, I've had runners pass me which imho is more dangerous. The times I have rode on the Hermosa section I usually keep about 12mph and slower when necessary and I'm always ready to brake.

I just stay on the street most of the time...riding on that path even where it's Bikes Only is like a MUP.

Redondo Beach, too many people even though there is a seperate walkway and the path says Bikes only. Plus having to dismount and walk the bike at the pier is stupid, and I've seen the police ticket a few people for not.

Hermosa...well we already discussed Hermosa.

Manhattan Beach, isn't as bad but people still tend to walk on the bike path when there is a walkway right next to it.

El Segundo Beach, there's usually few people and it's a straight shot so you can usually ride quick without worrying about hitting anyone.

Dockweiler, about the same as Manhattan Beach.

The Marina there is very few people walking.

Venice, probably worse than Hermosa Beach imho...way too many people and too many blind corners.

Santa Monica, about the same as Manhattan Beach.

Pacific Palisades about the same as Santa Monica.

When I head up north to Malibu I usually avoid the bike path except for Dock Whiler and Marina...the rest of the way is on the streets.

And regarding that Hermosa Beach budget...I breezed through it quickly (thanks for the post) and "Fines and Forfeitures" are indeed projected to account for an increasing dollar amount and an increasing percent of next year's revenues. Now, I'm assuming that's the category in which H.B. classifies these revenues. Again, if you know otherwise, please post to correct me.

Even if there is a projection of increased revenues for that item (which is where ticket revenue goes in the budget), it in no way proves some conspiracy to increase city revenues by increasing ticketing efforts. FWIW, local cities typically get (at most) about 15% of any fines from these tickets.

Modern PD's have no ticket "quotas" per se, but instead have measures of "job performance" that take into account all their job duties. When traffic accidents, complaints, or other incidents increase, that's when more attention is brought to bear on traffic safety people.

It's much more likely that increased ticketing is due to this increased focus on traffic safety, not revenue generation. Further, the increasing attention to cyclists comes from the behavior of cyclists themselves, IMO. I ride through there all the time, and see cyclists running stops, lights, riding to block traffic lanes and so on. I've done all those things at different times, too, but I also recognize that people get pissed off and complain.

October 13th, 2006
Traffic Ticket Abuse by Cities - No Longer a Public Safety Issue
Science & Technology News

A Federal Reserve Bank of Saint Louis working paper concludes that cities abuse their use of traffic tickets to make up for declining local tax revenues.

Economist Thomas A. Garrett and University of Arkansas at Little Rock Professor Gary A. Wagner explain that although there is ample anecdotal evidence to show that this is the case, no empirical studies have ever examined the question in detail.

Using county-level data from North Carolina between 1989 and 2003, the working paper analysis takes into account demographic factors such as population and traffic growth that could influence the number of tickets written for offenses such as speeding, failure to yield and following too closely. Some counties issued as many as one ticket for every resident, while the average was closer to one ticket for every ten residents.

Garrett and Wagner found that for each one-percent drop in local government revenue there followed a .38 percent increase in the number of tickets written, each worth between $5 and $250. When local revenue increased, however, there was no corresponding decrease in the number of citations issued.

"The fact that local governments increase traffic tickets during periods of revenue decreases but do not decrease traffic tickets in response to revenue increases reveals some degree of revenue maximization on the part of local governments," the authors concluded.

October 13th, 2006
Traffic Ticket Abuse by Cities - No Longer a Public Safety Issue
Science & Technology News

A Federal Reserve Bank of Saint Louis working paper concludes that cities abuse their use of traffic tickets to make up for declining local tax revenues.

Economist Thomas A. Garrett and University of Arkansas at Little Rock Professor Gary A. Wagner explain that although there is ample anecdotal evidence to show that this is the case, no empirical studies have ever examined the question in detail.

Using county-level data from North Carolina between 1989 and 2003, the working paper analysis takes into account demographic factors such as population and traffic growth that could influence the number of tickets written for offenses such as speeding, failure to yield and following too closely. Some counties issued as many as one ticket for every resident, while the average was closer to one ticket for every ten residents.

Garrett and Wagner found that for each one-percent drop in local government revenue there followed a .38 percent increase in the number of tickets written, each worth between $5 and $250. When local revenue increased, however, there was no corresponding decrease in the number of citations issued.

"The fact that local governments increase traffic tickets during periods of revenue decreases but do not decrease traffic tickets in response to revenue increases reveals some degree of revenue maximization on the part of local governments," the authors concluded.



Pop quiz: "Correlation is not causation." True or False?


FWIW, the few places that quote that study are like this one, TIxNix.com:


TixNix.com provides traffic ticket fighting services to professional drivers and private motorists from coast to coast. TixNix.com attorneys are currently available in 39 states, including Texas, California, New York, Colorado, Iowa, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Louisiana and Florida.

http://www.impactlab.com/2006/10/13/traffic-ticket-abuse-by-cities-no-longer-a-public-safety-issue/


Other motivations exist, too:


Abstract:
Traffic accidents are one of the leading causes of injury and death in the U.S. The role of traffic law enforcement in the reduction of accidents has been studied by relatively few papers and with mixed results that may be due to a simultaneity problem. Traffic law enforcement may reduce accidents, but police are also likely to be stricter in accident-prone areas. We use municipal budgetary shortfalls as an instrumental variable to identify the effect of traffic citations on traffic safety and show that budgetary shortfalls lead to more frequent issuance of tickets to drivers. Using a panel of municipalities in Massachusetts, we show that increases in the number of tickets written reduce motor vehicle accidents and accident related injuries, and that tickets issued to younger drivers have a larger effect in reducing accidents. The findings show that failure to control for endogeneity results in a significant underestimation of the positive impact of law enforcement on traffic safety.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1232373




Economist slap fights are fun! ;)

In the end, I believe that public institutions are most concerned with preserving the status quo (i.e., maintaining or increasing public employment headcounts) than providing taxpayers with value for their dollars. Of course, they'll never admit that and will always maintain they're "protecting the public interest". If you don't agree with that assertion, I must assume you are employed in the public sector. Unfortunately, I've been around the block too many times in my life to believe otherwise. Again, if you read my prior post, you'll see I was tagged with a $175 ticket in Redondo Beach…my actions were not unsafe in any manner. In fact, I ride virtually vintage cycles, so I'm always more careful that most riders simply due to my equipment. We'll have to agree to disagree on this subject.

Nevertheless, to end on a positive note, I'll observe we both likely share a common bond in our love for cycling. So, if an old guy on a fancy old bike cycling nervously through the South Bay passes you like you're standing still, feel free to say "hi"!:thumb:

Bicyclists, particularly those riding in groups, regularly blow though lights and stop signs all over the South Bay. This type of behavior really pisses off the non-riding citizens and police. The cops writting tickets is a result of this behavior. It has nothing to do with generating revenue and all the other silliness suggested in this thread.

You guys need to take off your blinders and recognize this recent ticket writing action for what it is.

Nevertheless, to end on a positive note, I'll observe we both likely share a common bond in our love for cycling. So, if an old guy on a fancy old bike cycling nervously through the South Bay passes you like you're standing still, feel free to say "hi"!:thumb:

Will do!

I'll be the semi-blinged out roadie ripping along at 15mph. :)

The police in most cities don't cite cyclists for running stop signs. The police in Hermosa don't need to either. There's far more danger posed to the public by errant motorists.

Because of this crackdown I will be avoiding Hermosa Beach -- not only on my bike, but when I'm in my car. That means I won't be patronizing HB merchants. Maybe I should send a message to the HB Chamber of Commerce advising them of that. If enough of us did that, I'm sure the chamber might exert some influence on city hall.

The police in most cities don't cite cyclists for running stop signs. The police in Hermosa don't need to either. There's far more danger posed to the public by errant motorists.

Because of this crackdown I will be avoiding Hermosa Beach -- not only on my bike, but when I'm in my car. That means I won't be patronizing HB merchants. Maybe I should send a message to the HB Chamber of Commerce advising them of that. If enough of us did that, I'm sure the chamber might exert some influence on city hall.

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:That's nicer than what I was going to say.

That's nicer than what I was going to say.

Then allow me to jump in....

The 'laws' on which polite society is based are not merely self serving financial instruments meant to provide a source of funding for city coffers... These 'laws' contain some blindingly insightful concepts which the common man should obey; simply to protect their own health and safety.

If all members of the 'polite society' would accept the small restraints on their personal freedom, then the incendiary and reactionary stance by law enforcement would be mitigated and personal injury would be reduced resulting in lowered governmental costs for individuals and businesses.

If governmental costs are lowered, and people are safer, then logic would dictate you would be performing more consumer activities in that city simply for economic reasons. However, one would also have the psychological benefit of supporting a government which acknowledges personal responsibility alongside personal freedom.


However, based on your response... you sound like the type of cyclist who does not acknowledge stop signs and you are the exactly what Hermosa Beach is trying to eliminate from their city streets. Since you volunteered to stay out of Hermosa Beach, I think I will start a local effort to have cyclists ticketed because I don't want cyclists like that in my town either...

Go Extort! How's your flu?

The 'laws' on which polite society is based are not merely self serving financial instruments meant to provide a source of funding for city coffers... These 'laws' contain some blindingly insightful concepts which the common man should obey; simply to protect their own health and safety....

Or, to put it another way:

http://robertfulghum.com/photos/kindylogo.jpg


:thumb:

Wall Street Journal, March 27, 2009:

"A study in last month's Journal of Law and Economics concluded that, as many motorists have long suspected, "governments use traffic tickets as a means of generating revenue." The authors, Thomas Garrett of the St. Louis Fed and Gary Wagner of the University of Arkansas at Little Rock, studied 14 years of traffic-ticket data from 96 counties in North Carolina. They found that when local-government revenue declines, police issue more tickets in the following year. Officials at the North Carolina Association of Chiefs of Police didn't respond to requests for comment."

Of course, in the next sentence, a city official is quoted as saying, with regard to a particular automated traffic camera "it wasn't about the revenue...no one will believe that, but it wasn't."

Nothing new here. Same authors milking the same dataset and selling the same conclusions on the limited data as discussed before. Garrett and Wagner's kids gotta eat, too, I guess.

Yeah, can you imagine that they keep fudging the data like that, I mean, all the cops and the city employees insist that ticketing doesn't increase to meet budget shortfalls. The muckrakers should be investigated!

Yeah, can you imagine that they keep fudging the data like that, I mean, all the cops and the city employees insist that ticketing doesn't increase to meet budget shortfalls. The muckrakers should be investigated! Call the city clerk and ask for HBPD stats and budget for the last 10 years under the FOIA. You should be able to calculate trends from that.

So, let me get this right. The police, whose job is to uphold the law, are ticketing people who are breaking the law. One would think that would be a good thing right? There is a real easy way to not get a ticket, especially one for failing to stop at a stop sign, its called STOPPING! Real simple. If you think this is in error, please read CVC 21200.

My daily commute takes me through both Hermosa and Redondo. During summer months, the MUP in Hermosa is filled with people. When the red lights flash you have to walk your bike (I wish the inline skaters and skateboarders did the same). I stay on the street in the afternoon. The cars are more predictable than the peds.

In Redondo at the pier, there is a blind curve.
Last summer, a cyclists took out a baby carriage (luckily the child was not in it). Of course, this was in a discussion with the cop that thanked me for walking my bike as his partner was writing up a cyclist for not doing so. (it looks like Manhattan Pier may start doing the same thing). I think the fine for running a stop sign in Redondo is over $160

South of the Redondo Pier, peds just don't pay attention to the bikes only signs painted on the path. There's no law saying they can't use it. So I just deal with it and slow down.

I bike this route from Redondo Beach (where I live) going north via Hermosa Beach a few times a week. As usual, this morning I was on Hermosa Ave. I didn't completely stop at each stop sign (but did unclip and have my foot ready to go down as I slowed to a virtual stop).

As always though, I did see many other cyclists pretty much just run the stop signs and even some briefly slowing down and then running the red lights. I didn't see any cops but my guess is that they're still going to be on the prowl around here.

The streets are much safer than the bike path at the beach during the day but before 8am the bike path is not too bad (even on weekends).