Road Cycling - Campi vs Shimano design strategy

To summarize the debate, on one hand Campi is taking its old technology adding a few sprockets and simply using new materials (ex: carbon) on the other hand Shimano is using more conventional materials and modifying its approach (ex: press-fit axles) .. Now the kicker is when I see Campi using carbon for the front derailleur .. I don't know about having a chain rubbing against it ..

It seems both company have a quasi monopoly, keeping prices outrageously high and not putting a lot of excitement.. competitors like Sachs, Mavic, Modolo.. etc .. have almost disappeared from the planet ..


Any thoughts about where this is going ..

what's this? another campy vs. shimano thread? in the ROAD forum? most unexpected thing....ever. :rolleyes:

No not really one vs the other .. I don't really care which one is best, I personaly beleive its a matter of taste .. but rather where are designs and trends going ?

Cheers

meh...i have to say i'm a little surprised that shimano hasn't done anything with carbon so far. maybe they feel like other companies are already doing a good enough job of it (FSA..uh...who else besides campy?). it it alomost seems like they have a "why mess with what works?" mentality about it, which is odd for them...but then again, right now it IS only campy or shimano, and people who like the STI shifting still have to buy pretty much the whole group even if they do want crabon cranks. i don't think shimano is losing out on any money because they aren't making carbon cranks. it's hard to predict what shimano is going to do, because they've done some pretty unexpected things in the past (dura ace AX, the dura ace 10 track group), those things lead to better things down the road. more Ti. maybe some carbon eventually, but probably not for a few more years. the new DA crank design will probably trickle into ultegra for 2006, and then 105 after that (i'm going on what they did with the MTB line with XTR and XT). that might actually bring out more companies to compete, because when that happens, people looking for high-end cranks will be forced to go with FSA, or ritchey or some other company, or switch to campy. so i think when that happens, there will be a surge in BB and crank R&D and sales. it's going to happen eventually, and when it does, it'll either turn people off, or it won't. the next few years are going to be interesting for shimano and their customers. interesting to watch what they do and what happens...

campy...it's interesting to see the new chorus group. they have a carbon crank (which basically looks like last year's record carbon), and they moved the chainring arms around to look exactly like the record arms on their aluminum cranks. right now, i think there isn't any difference between the record and chorus alum. cranks...maybe finish? the rings look the same, the shape of the arms...everything. i'm not sure what it means...i was just surprised, because that's how i always recognized record parts from a distance....i think they'll get to a point where both record and chorus will have the same amount of carbon...maybe chorus will just be phased out eventually. campy will just start incorporating more and more carbon and Ti into their parts, and trickling technology down to other groups.

it's hard to say where the industry is going. i don't really feel like it's driven by consumers anymore though, just because there are only two companies making complete parts groups now. and i think that's unfortunate, because us, the consumers are really the ones who "suffer" because of it. i think shimano's impending trickle-down of the DA crank design might change that though. it'll be interesting to watch mavic, FSA, cane creek, SRAM, and maybe even ritchey over the next few years to see what they do.

what's wrong with the other companies stuff? is it good? bad?

what other companies?

wow what a surprise.

capitalism creates monopolies.

someone hold the front page.

fsnl
sparky

2005 ultegra will be 10 speed

Campy's been working on an electronic group for a while haven't they? I've heard a few people that were fans of the old Mavic one show interest in the prospect of a new electronic group.

Actually the electronic group was design many years ago ( I would guess 6-8) by Mavic and they even used it on a few stages at the TDF to test it.. but suddenly stoped all the dev when they decided to stop to be a player in the groupo arena. From what I have read the system is driven by a solenoid actuator and was initially placed in the rear derailler. I saw a prototype once on the web ( I think it was a Campi one) that even incorporated the system in the front derailler. The problem appears to be the energy required in front (in the back it does not seem to be a problem) and the placement of the energy source ie: batteries. Another issue appears when you loose the power source .. well you basically stay stuck in your current gear ... Lets face it, the lack of players is killing the developement .. when I see a manufacturer using a different material but replicating the same component I would hardly call this, design improvement .. anyone can do this ..

To summarize the debate, on one hand Campi is taking its old technology adding a few sprockets and simply using new materials (ex: carbon) on the other hand Shimano is using more conventional materials and modifying its approach (ex: press-fit axles) .. Now the kicker is when I see Campi using carbon for the front derailleur .. I don't know about having a chain rubbing against it ..

It seems both company have a quasi monopoly, keeping prices outrageously high and not putting a lot of excitement.. competitors like Sachs, Mavic, Modolo.. etc .. have almost disappeared from the planet ..


Any thoughts about where this is going ..

actually - that is not true. Many people try to imagine Campy factories as some sort of old traditional factory where their components are loving made by some old craftsmen that speaks in old italian and think bicycles are more art than machines. Others try to imagine Shimano as some robotic factory, modern lab with white walls and dust-free rooms where employees wear vacuum suits and work under tight scientific controls.

The truth is closer to the middle ground - both just develop with what they are comfortable with. Shimano has experimented with carbon, but they were not satisfied with the performance benefits to justify the massive change. Remember, Shimano also manufacturs carbonfibre rods - so they aren't totally against carbon.

Obviously both have different approaches - but basically the objective user would just let the shape of hids hands decide if he rides campy or shimano (given that both cost the same to him (issues like avaliability, etc)).

the different philosophy of the product design also reflects different cultural influences.

Look at all japanese appliances; well designed, functional, employing high tech manufacturing and design in understated packages.

Italian design flair is something else entirely; there seems to be a soft curve in everything they do.

one is organic, the other industrial..

Both are functionally fit for purpose and exibit deliberate differences in feel to create appeal for different people.

AS for Campy's extensive use of Carbon, this IMO is merely to create attention around their technological excellence. Carbon for a fron mech cage is not difficult component to design to last. All that is needed is a tough resin which has a low Coeffiecient of friction. Not difficult t achieve if you use Ferrari Engineering to design a process to mould such a component and select the correct resin.
It's not needed but it does create the correct impact.

Shimano on the othe hand use materials in a much more subtle manner. They use different grades of aluminium, titatnium and steel to maximise the performance of their components. they feel that for bicycle components Carbon fibre is not the answer. it's a philosophy which i respect as an engineer. Far greater benefit can be achieved through careful design and clever materials selection for the application. Carbon is not needed and in 9/10 cases there is no benefit;

eg FSA carbon cranks have an aluminium internal structure and that is covered in PU foam and carbon fibre. What is carrying the load? the internal structure of course. The carbon is purely cosmetic.
On the campy components this is also the case but the execution of it carries the message of their technological know how.
For Shimano this is the same except their execution is different.

Well If you are talking about cultural design phylosophy this is another story. Yes I will be stating major stereotypes which are not always true but quite accurate sometimes ( I apologize in advance) . Japanees design are usally driven by a reverse eng. appraoch ie: they purchase existing components from competitors, analyse them and replicate them .. not very strong on the inovation but masters at building them faster and with higher quality std.. Italians are mostly know for the looks and not always on the practicality of designs.. Take for instance injection molding press, its the same story, they load them with numerous sensors that are most of the time damaged and not always required, I would definately go for a German design.. more reliable and stable in terms of production. The quesion is not the image we make of the plant (although its nice to imagine this very traditional image for Campi.. in the middle of Italy, with a loving employee polishing this crank arm) but more about the product itself. The competition we have with frame designers is no where to be found in groupo world. They play with materials, wall thickness, angles, welding or adhesives, shapes, profiles, etc... groupo ..nada.. I don't think better components makes me better a cyclist, training does .. but I just see 2 companies being lazzy and controling prices ..

I had just taken a first look at the new Record group (on a Tallerico) and it didn't really impress me that much ... it looked kinda flimsy imo. It's true the brake blades are carbon, but the shifter blades are just plastic with faux carbon tape on em.

Maybe its' me, but I prefer metal parts to plastic parts ... esp. in rapid-wearing components, such as derailleurs. I'm just sorry that they did away with the all-metal Chorus group.

I guess it's just a matter of taste.