Classic & Vintage - Is this bike anything? Supposed to be deluxe French bike in it's day.

Hello all,
I just had a guy give me this older road bike. It was supposed to be a top of the line French "Gene" or something from probably the late 1970's. Looks like it was a beetle green color once, now painted over blue. Most of the components look French. It's got 27" wheels, 1.25" tires. The bike was supposed to once belong to a biker in the early 80's moving "Breaking Away" - I think that's the name. This guy got it from that biker's brother in law. I've got the biker's name at work, can't remember it now. It's a lugged steel frame, but much, much lighter than another 1970's bike I've got. The fork is chrome, and just ahead of the rear wheel is chrome. Under the top tube there are two "devil tail" things that look like maybe a pump or something used to lock into them? You can see one in the stem photo.

The componets are:
- Frame is stamped "Juy Simplex" where the rear wheel mounts on each side. Has a rack lug.
- Mafac "Racer" center-pull brakes
- Derailluers are Simplex
- Rigida rear rim (French)
- Shurmann Super front rim (German)
- has a "72" stamped in the steering head

Is this bike worth of fixing up? I thought it might make a nice road bike to complement my Glove 7 commuter. Or... should it pitch it?

Thanks,
Pat

The 'devil tail' things are for holding a frame pump.

I would do some basic maintenance on it and then evaluate it for working condition. It doesn't look too bad in the photos. I saw a bit of surface rust in the rear, but nothing awful. Certainly looked like it needed new housings and some TLC.

That bike is possibly a "Motobecane" or a "Peugeot", although
the frame stamped name is strange and unusual. The headbadge
on the Motobecane or Peugeot are pretty easy to identify.

It could be some common "French" bike using what would have
been low to mid range parts at that time. I am sure one of the
members will nail it down for you.

I'd say late 60's or early 70's. Maybe the '72' stamped in the headset is the mfg. date. Those cottered cranks look '69-'72 to me, and that matches the date on those Simplex derailleurs and Mafac brakes. The components look like the mid-line used on typical mass marketed French Peugeot touring bikes of the late 60's and early 70's; the frame looks like a typical steel frame of that time with average quality braze-ons. It's probably a good lugged frame, but I'd upgrade the components or convert it to a fixie. Are the original rims steel or alloy? If they're steel you should replace them...and good luck finding cones and other mechanical parts for an older French bike...a labor of love, to say the least! :)

The rear gear is a simplex delrin model which was about 1978? (francophiles chime
right in) from what I can see of the Front it also is a Delrin model. Plastic body
with some metal bits.
The stem looks like a cheap Phillipe model, the chainrings look like a Stronglight steel
cottered crankset.
Could the bike be a "Gitane"? I don't remember seeing any french bikes in
Breaking Away, the main character had a Masi (there were actually 2 bikes) and
both of those have been accounted for (and it is known where they are).

Marty

Actually, this bike itself was never in the movie. I found the name of the previous owner: Johnny Vandeveld. He was probably a biker in the race scenes or something. Bike has no stickers or emblems to help ID.

Marty, I think you are right on the age. The derailleurs look like they are about shot. Age has damaged the plastic materials. The cables too. Everything works right now, but I don't really trust 'em.

I've got some like-new Shimano (sp) parts from my mint 1976 Coast King (picked up a Goodwill) that I may put on this thing. I still wonder if it's worth putting time into. The best thing this bike has so far over the Coast King 10spd is it's light weight, narrow 27" wheels, and the brakes.

Thanks for all the replies so far....
Pat

1.25" wheels ain't narrow.

Pat,

The previous owner, John Van De Velde struck a familiar chord. As well it should
his son rides for USPS Christian Van de Velde. John was in Breaking away he was
one of the Cinzano team riders.
Interesting factoid there (ain't the internet wunnerful?).

I'd date the bike a bit earlier than lotek, mostly because:
1) I've had two low-end, 1976 peugeots pass thru my hands, and the simplex rear derailleurs on them were made of metal, not the notorious delrin. I don't know for sure, however, exactly when simplex shifted over to alloy; I know for certain by 1979 almost everything they made was alloy, however.

2) The cottered crank.

You might flip the bike over and look at the bottom of the bottom bracket shell. That's where Peugeot stuck their serial numbers. However, the lugwork isn't familiar to me, so I don't think it's a Peugeot. Most of this, and what I've stated prior to this, is guesswork, tho; I could be completely wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

The bike looks like a low to middle end French bike from sometime in the seventies to me. Personally, I'd go with the fixie option, like Randya. As I recall, you're in madison, and that town would be great for a fixie. This I'm sure of, because when I visited there last fall, the bike I took was my fixed gear.

In order to shift your bike over to shimano, you'll need a new derailleur claw; simplex and shimano dropouts are not compatible. Check first and see if the claw is threaded where the derailleur inserts into the claw; if it's not, you likely need a new dropout claw. Probably the one off the "coast king" would do (just guessing it doesn't have an integral dropout derailleur hanger).

I wasn't dating the bike, just the delrin derailleurs.
I agree bike looks like early 70's bike boom to me.

Marty

"I wasn't dating the bike, just the delrin derailleurs."

Oops my error. I knew I'd make another one soon.

Thanks for the ideas guys, and the info on Van de Velde.

I was looking last night, and the whole bike was once chrome. Then painted funky green, then blue. No serial number on the crank shell, it's on the rear bracket beside where it says "Juy Simplex". I think this thing is some type of mid to low level bike built by Simplex (is that possible?). Looking at the shifting mechanism, it looks like a nightmare. Finding the right cables, making stuff work, etc, I just don't have time for that. Probably going fixie would be the best option. I could scrap all the derailluer stuff and just focus on the essential (which I guess it the draw to the fixie lifestyle).

What the simpliest way to convert to fixie? I would guess it would be to ride the bike and figure out a good gear ratio, then scrap all the shifting mechanism and cut the chain to fit that sprocket combo? Or, do I need to look for some other type of rear hub or something? I guess I would want to use the front outer (big) sprocket if possible, then scrap the inner. Can a fixie still freewheel, or do you have to be "hard core" and go "direct drive" w/o freewheel?

Thanks again for everyones guesses and info!
Pat

Delrin was an evil eighties development, I think- when the industry was experimenting with other cost cutting 'innovations' like removing the bearings from kids' bikes and just using plastic sleeves.......

-might be a later addition to the frame, however.

The reference to Simplex- that's probably a use of their fork ends and drop outs.

Delrin was an idea some geniuses at simplex had to lessen the weight on derailleurs by making them from plastic. They're notorious for breakage (I've never had one go, knock on wood). It was not one of Simplex's better ideas (the retrofriction shifter comes to mind as a better one). Delrin dates from the sixties and seventies; both my 1967 PX10 and my 1972 PX10 have derailleurs made of this material (I believe; I'm no expert). By 1979 (I think), it was gone; my 1979 PKN10E has all alloy simplex.

The best way to make a fixie is to get a new rear wheel/hub, plus a track cog and lockring. Ditch the cottered crank for a cotterless, and remove one ring (this may require new chainring bolts). Strip all the shifters, derailluers, and rear brake.

The guys over on the singlespeed forum can give you more info; they're religiously devoted to the fixie. Or you can try www.sheldonbrown.com , he's got better info than I on the subtelties of the fixie. I like riding them, but I'm a sucker for most any bike.

By looking at your pics, the cranks could be either Nervar, Atax, Solida, or a lower end Stronglight model, all were pretty much clones of one another.
The derailleurs are Simplex Prestige, which were used from the '60's into the mid to later 70's. I tried to compare your frame to some of the various pics I have here, but I couldn't find an exact match. The main ques to ID your frame will be in the style of lugs, the position and type of pump pegs, and the way the seat stays attach to the seat tube and the rear dropouts.
The 72 you see stamped on the headtube, may be the angle of the lugs? Is it on the headtube or on the lug itself?
Is the fork crown cast or is just a stamped steel one with a chrome cap?
It looks like the lugs were originally painted black? Is there any chips in the black on the lugs that may show that they were another color?
What make and style are the rims? Are they Rigida steel rims with serated sides? Any name on the hubs?
My guess by the pics is that it's most likely early to mid 70's, but more info or better pics are needed to be able to better identify this.

Here's some more info and photos...

Front lugs: Were originally black, with a gold-colored outline. The "gold" appears to be copper or brass, as it soft. There is steel under that. Were steel lugs dipped in copper then brazed on? No other lugs are like this. The number "72" is on the lug itself. The paint flakes easily off this area, and you can see one side's original colors well. Photos attached.

Rear lugs/brackets: Chrome, and brazed on it appears. Not that the LH frame tubing that slides over the bracket is cracked/split. I thought this was big trouble, but it appears to have been that way since new. I say this be cause there is chrome inside the crack, so it was there when that area was dipped. Also the chrome on the tubing would be cracked or buckled if this was stress related, and it isn't. On the bottom where you can see the brazing of the bracket to the stay tube, no poof of movement of the bracket can be seen (cracked chrome, rust, etc). Therefore, I think there is no structural problem. Photo attached.

Forks: Have a lug cap. Everything is chrome. Nothing looks cast. Photo attached.

Seat: Says "Grand Prix" on sides, and Made In Italy on the underside. Is hard black plastic. No photo.

Rear Rim: Rigida w/ dimples in brake contact area. No photo.

Cranks: Solida (sp?). No photo.

And I included another photo of the complete bike. Sorry, when I drop the resolution to post these I'm afraid such a shot doesn't show much. So far I can verify that the bike had chrome forks, chrome rear stays, and a black front lugs trimmed in gold.

In going fixie, I think I prefer Single Speed instead. I can see that I can easily remove the unused front chainring and I understand how to use only one cog on the rear w/ spacers (I've been reading the SS forum!).

Thanks again guys/gals for all your help.
Pat

Hmm, back in about '76, I bought a closeout bike from JCPenney. I have a vague memory that someone once told me it had been built by Jeunet. It had a steel frame that looked a lot like this one. Similar lug work, but no pump peg, and not as tight a rear triange. Weinmann center pull brakes. Simplex delrin rear derailleur like this puppy. Astonishingly similar crankset (cottered, three bolts between the chainrings. Sounds like your bike has steel rims, if the braking surfaces are dimpled. My bike had similar rims. No recollection of what the hubs were like. Stem looked a lot like yours. Hard plastic seat; yeah, I think it said "Grand Prix". No idea what it'd be worth these days, but your bike appears to be a slight "upgrade" of mine from circa '75.

Looks like the fork on your bike is a replacement, though. Mid '80s replacement forks were commonly all chrome.

Oh, the downtube shifters -- are they kinda plastic-y too? On a band, rather than a braze-on? Is there no braze-on to keep the band from sliding down the frame? That's what kept happening to mine; the band would slide down the frame rather than the cable pulling the cage. When I rebuilt the bike my brother brazed a little chuck of metal to the downtube to keep the band from sliding downward.

Madpaque, I believe you hit it on the head. Check out his restored Jeunet I found: http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/stevelloyd.htm

I printed off a photo and walked downstairs and compared:

- Frame geometry - perfect match. ALL tubes are in the same orientation.
- Chrome Simplex dropouts - match.
- Headset lugs - almost perfect match. Like mine, they are a different color with an outline around them. I figure maybe this could be a unique "trademark" type of paint scheme to Jeunet? My lugs have a slightly different shape (more points in the "crown" design on mine) but same basic deal. Probably a diffferent year bike so different design. Of course this guy painted his bike, but I believe he followed the original paint scheme.
- Lug where the rear uprights meet the seatpost/top tube - exact match to everything in that area.
- Fork - almost perfect match - Shape is exactly the same, but top crown a little different.
- Front hub - match. Both have that "big hub" deal with the slots.
- Dimple in lower stay for chain clearance - match
- Brakes - Match.

Well, I think I have a Jeunet! Orginally it would have been a bright beetle-green with black front lugs. Jeunet would pronounce the same as "Gene" that the previous owner said he thought it was. What do you guys think?

Oh yeah, the rear hub is a Shimano 333, so maybe that will be easy to convert to SS?

Thanks again to everyone for their help. If anyone has any more ideas, I'd appreciate them.
Pat

Wow, according to that fixie page, the frame is 531 DB. I'm sure the frame on my JCP bike was plain-old steel. So yours must be a significant upgrade. And yes, I vaguely recall high-flange hubs.

Hello all,
I just had a guy give me this older road bike....
Is this bike worth of fixing up? I thought it might make a nice road bike to complement my Glove 7 commuter. Or... should it pitch it?


Sure, fix it up. Just clean it up, lube or replace the cables and put 700c wheels on it. Most of the low to middle-range French bikes imported in the 60s and 70s had the 700C sewup wheels swapped for the more common (in the US) 27" wheels, so converting back is easy. You should still be able to find 5-speed or 6-speed wheels that will fit.

Those brakes are definitely an unusual design.

Everyone hold on because I've almost got this baby back in shape! I've converted it to single speed (sorry fixie fans) and just put on some fresh paint. I've removed all the shifting mechanism, unnessary lugs, bracketry, and cogs and it looks much better. This past week has been nothing but pulling the bike down each night and getting it rebuilt. I've cleaned/inspected/repacked every bearing in this thing, and there are a lot! Down to the pedal bearings. From what I could see, the bike didn't have that many miles on it. As I had never taken a bike like this 100% apart, it was very interesting. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how much I've learned can be applied to "regular" bikes as this Jeunet has some things like nothing I've seen on the 'net. The Atom freewheel is one, and the cassette that I had to figure out how to break down is another. You unthread the cogs, which is cool for a single speed as you can just thread on the one you want. No spacers needed, like Shimano.

They are weird brakes to me to LBM, but apparently common on French bikes. According to Sheldon Brown.com, Mafac Racer brakes are good brakes, and I think they will work fine. It's amazing how much better things move/roll/turn when you remove 20-yr old dried grease and gunk! I'm going to fabricate some new cables as well.

Anyway, I should get it totally together in the next few days and I'll post a photo here and on the SS forum.

Pat

They are weird brakes to me to LBM, but apparently common on French bikes. According to Sheldon Brown.com, Mafac Racer brakes are good brakes, and I think they will work fine.
Pat, I didn't say they were "weird," I said they were, "unusual." I recently bought an old French-made bike
with exactly those style Mafac brakes.

As I examined my bike to see what to do with it (what to replace,) I discovered that these brakes were a really neat design. You have to see the real thing to appreciate the thought that went into them.

On the downside, I had to replace them with standard center-pull brakes (from another bike) because the brake shoes were worn out and I had no way to get replacements (as far as I know, '70's French brake pads are in short supply--at least I didn't have any. ;) )

Some have said to "beware weird French threading," something that might bite me later. But the frame was reasonably light and my size, so I figured I had nothing to lose at $15.00.

After seeing this unusual brake design, I figured it might have been the French's way of keeping their cusomers loyal. Once they bought a French bike, they had to keep buying French parts. Oh, well....

;)

Trust me, there are ways around nearly every weird french issue; don't get too worried, folks. You can find the Mafac pads still; I bought about 20 NOS ones a while back at a swap meet in Maryland for ten bucks.

I had what appears to be the same components on a Puch ride back in the late 60's. The derailleurs were made of plastic with some metal bits but this was just an attempt by the French to make an otherwise very cheap system lighter than the competitions cheap steel stuff. The brakes are also low end aluminum components what were use to be called center pull brakes. Mafac did make some highend sidepull brakes but those obviously are not them. Also the crank and ring gears are all stamped steel another indication of lower end stuff, most of the mid to highend stuff back in those days did use alumunium cranks even if they were the old style cotter pin system, they just used a steel cotterpin so it could take a hammering. Also the pedals are a steel rat pedal that is another indication of a lower quality. And the Rigida rims were on most if not all bikes that came out of France; also cannot tell by the pics if the rims (especially the Rigida) is steel or AL, if steel that's a big indication that the bike is a lower end unit.

The Puch I had was the same color and same chrome usage except the cables were internally routed on mine, which was an attemp to airstream, but all it really did was chew the cable. The Simplex system was the crappiest derailleurs I ever used.

I can't tell you who made the bike but I can tell you it isn't worth fixing up unless you want something unusual.

You also have to keep in mind that steel rims were the norm back then. If you take a look at the early 70's Peugeot line up, they used the steel Rigida rims right up to the PX-10 which was the flagship of the line. I know that there were other models between the steel wheeled UO-8 and the PX-10, but they were not available to all areas.

As far as pads for the older Mafac calipers, they use a stud mount pad, and I've been able to use Dia-Compe and equivelent cantilever pads in a pinch. They work just fine if not better than the originals.

French threading isn't weird, it's simply true metric threads vs. standard British threading. I would say if anything the Italian bikes were the odd one out with there own sizes.

The Mafac center pull calipers worked fine, they were just prone to squealing, mostly I think due to the loose tolerances and the fact that they were often coupled with serated sided rims.

Steel cottered cranks were also quite common on most all bikes up until the mid 70's, only the top models got alloy cranks, for example, the Raleigh Super Course, Gitane Interclub, and many others retained the use of steel cottered cranks. I'm sure this was simply to keep costs down at the beginning of the bike boom, and most all eventually went to cotterless alloy cranks, but only after the Japanese started to produce less expensive versions. The Super Course went to cottered alloy cranks but they were made by SR and scripted with "Raleigh" the same with Motobecane and many others.

I have always sort of considered a bikes worth or quality by how it was equipped, and it's fit and finish or workmanship. I would say that "High End would be any bike that came through with either Campy or Dura-Ace, (or even Huret Jubile' or Suntour Cyclone, depending on the model), along with most likely a Reynolds 531 frameset.

Myself, at 6'3" tall and pushing 250 lbs, I personally aviod these bikes simply due to the fact that the 531 double butted tubeset is realy only rated for a 150 lb. rider and the weight savings was only at best a pound over the lesser tubing, and less vs. other chromoly frames. I ride mostly 63cm frames, which would compound the weaknesses of a thinner wall tubeset.

The one part I would keep an eye on or even replace for saftey is French made stems from this era, mainly those made by AVA, I've seen several failures of these.
Most French steertubes are 22mm ID but a 22.2 mm stem can be sanded to fit quite easily. SR did make 22mm stems and some bike shops may still have a few still on the shelf.

That's interesting, my 68 Pugh had Rigida aluminum rims stock from the Pugh and this bike was lower end with the plastic crappy Simplex derailleurs, and came with aluminum Mafac center pull brakes and steel cranks.

Maybe Peugeot was doing something weird? I knew guys that rode on late 60's and early 70's Italin highend bikes and theirs all came with aluminum rims. One thing though, the French always seemed to be following the beat of a different drummer even when it came to their cars and the French invented the first car!

OK, here we go. The new and improved (depends on interpretation) "Green Meenie". Today I easily grafted on a pair of Wal-Mart Bell brake pads made for cantalever brakes. No problem at all.

I've been through this bike totally, and no cracks, weak spots, or wear was found anywhere so I feel like it will be OK for what I'll use it for. I just wanted a lighter "racing bike" to complement my Globe commuter. Sometimes on the weekends I might want to branch out and cover some ground at speed.

The coolest thing is that I've got probably $25 in this bike. That includes two new tires and tubes! The local hardware store is well stocked with all the cheap will-fit bike parts. Cables, $2.00. Tires, $7.00. And so on. Why put a lot of money in when I'm not sure how this thing is really going to handle, fit, etc?

Anyway, I've got basically a brand new bike here. It's simple, relatively light, and different. If I grow to really like the bike, I can watch ebay for cheap aluminum cranks, rims, etc over time. Anyway, I'm pretty happy with the outcome.

Thanks to all for your thoughts and comments. I really appreciate them and I've become a more avid biker due to all of this.

Pat

Another shot, of the the rear SS setup. Basically, I just threaded off the unused cogs and ground off the big round plastic thing that kept the chain out of the spokes. You might also be able see where I ground off the derailleur cable bracket on the lower stay. All the chrome was cleaned up with 0000 steel wool and clearcoated to prevent rust.

My Dremel tool was invaluable for this job....

Pat

OK, last one. The Jeunet "Green Meenie" and my Specialized Globe 7....
Pat

You also have to keep in mind that steel rims were the norm back then. If you take a look at the early 70's Peugeot line up, they used the steel Rigida rims right up to the PX-10 which was the flagship of the line. I know that there were other models between the steel wheeled UO-8 and the PX-10, but they were not available to all areas.

The two intermediate models, the PA-10 and PR-10, were tubular-tyred entry-level racers. The PKN-10, which replaced the PR-10 in the mid-to-late 1970s, had aluminum clinchers.


As far as pads for the older Mafac calipers, they use a stud mount pad, and I've been able to use Dia-Compe and equivelent cantilever pads in a pinch. They work just fine if not better than the originals.

Standard stud-mount KoolStops work alot better than the original Mafac pads.


French threading isn't weird, it's simply true metric threads vs. standard British threading. I would say if anything the Italian bikes were the odd one out with there own sizes.

Spot-on! In a metric world, I find it ironic that British threading and diameters won out for ISO bicycle standards. The most sensible (metric and self-tightening) BB threading is also the rarest: Swiss.


The Mafac center pull calipers worked fine, they were just prone to squealing, mostly I think due to the loose tolerances and the fact that they were often coupled with serated sided rims.

They also work better if you shorten the straddle cable a bit, to boost leverage.


Steel cottered cranks were also quite common on most all bikes up until the mid 70's, only the top models got alloy cranks, for example, the Raleigh Super Course, Gitane Interclub, and many others retained the use of steel cottered cranks.

I bought an American Eagle (Nishiki) Semi-Pro (Competition) in March 1971, because at $150 it was the least expensive bike with a db CrMo frame and aluminum (Sugino Mighty Compe) crankset. The paint went very quickly, the frame broke at 40K miles/65K km, and the crank snapped (on a different frame) shortly thereafter.


I have always sort of considered a bikes worth or quality by how it was equipped, and it's fit and finish or workmanship. I would say that "High End" would be any bike that came through with either Campy or Dura-Ace, (or even Huret Jubile' or Suntour Cyclone, depending on the model), along with most likely a Reynolds 531 frameset.

That is a reasonable definition, although one has to be sensitive to production date, as you noted in your cottered crank discussion. Fancy forged dropouts did not become universal on high-end bikes until the late 1960s.


The one part I would keep an eye on or even replace for saftey is French made stems from this era, mainly those made by AVA, I've seen several failures of these.
Most French steertubes are 22mm ID but a 22.2 mm stem can be sanded to fit quite easily. SR did make 22mm stems and some bike shops may still have a few still on the shelf.

Yup!

[QUOTE=PatLuc]Madpaque, I believe you hit it on the head. Check out his restored Jeunet I found: http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/stevelloyd.htm

go to http://www.classicrendezvous.com to the section on french bikes and and you will see a jeunet bike which is the same year as mine which is the one fixed gear gallery

thanks
steve

Thanks Steve. That bike of yours is really awesome. It made me want to fix up this one. I actually sent you an email about it, but maybe you never got it. I forget what I asked, but I think I asked some general questions to see if we could positively I.D. mine as a Jeunet, which I have now.

That green Jeunet in the link you sent is original color my bike was. That funky green was pretty cool.

Anyway, thanks for the link and setting such a good example with your bike.

Pat

Thanks Steve. That bike of yours is really awesome. It made me want to fix up this one. I actually sent you an email about it, but maybe you never got it. I forget what I asked, but I think I asked some general questions to see if we could positively I.D. mine as a Jeunet, which I have now.

That green Jeunet in the link you sent is original color my bike was. That funky green was pretty cool.

Anyway, thanks for the link and setting such a good example with your bike.

Pat
email was changed to slloyss@comcast.net
steve

Thanks Steve. That bike of yours is really awesome. It made me want to fix up this one. I actually sent you an email about it, but maybe you never got it. I forget what I asked, but I think I asked some general questions to see if we could positively I.D. mine as a Jeunet, which I have now.

That green Jeunet in the link you sent is original color my bike was. That funky green was pretty cool.

Anyway, thanks for the link and setting such a good example with your bike.

Pat
i have changed the bike a little, there are pictures on ss and fixie site under pictures , added fenders, brooks pro, and changed brake lever and ran cables through handlebars

Hi: The bike has cottered cranks (steel?) to it's not high end. The simplex plastic changers were common early 70s along with huret. I think moderate bikes used the simplex while lower end used huret although there was quite a bit of overlap. I would clean it up and use it but not put a lot of money into it.

Bob Skillman Ellicott City MD

does anyone know the company Legge?

Don't they make pantyhose?