Training & Nutrition - Running for Cyclists....secret method

It is a secret, because I just discovered this today at lunch.

I got really fit this year and rode 7000 miles or so, but have not ran in 9 months. I've tried running one day a week, but it makes my legs hurt a lot, and I'm so slow yet fit from riding, my pulse stays at about 100 BPM.

Secret Method: Use a treadmill, adjust the speed so that your running cadence is the same as your cycling cadence, and vary the effort by adjusting the incline on the treadmill. That way you can take those tiny little strides (resulting from big, but short cycling quads) and still get your pulse up to an reasonable range. I used 10 minutes/mile and 5% to 10% grade. Ran for 45 minutes....with wattage between 200 and 350W.

Warm up and don't overdo the grade, as it puts extra stress on your Archiles tendon and calf muscles.

I find that cycling can give you a pretty big engine for running but that there is an adjustment period. Once it started getting cold & dark, I decided to go for a 30 minute run one day and promptly ended up with a mild stress fracture in one foot. After taking about 6 weeks to heal, I gradually ramped it up from 10 minutes to 15 to 30 and now can do about 45 minutes, the most that I'd want to do anyway. The "big engine" aspect of it comes in because I can do a 6 minute mile without too much work and I'm not even a real runner. I wonder if runners who take up cycling can carry fitness over in the same way.

Try triathlons...

I find that cycling can give you a pretty big engine for running but that there is an adjustment period. Once it started getting cold & dark, I decided to go for a 30 minute run one day and promptly ended up with a mild stress fracture in one foot. After taking about 6 weeks to heal, I gradually ramped it up from 10 minutes to 15 to 30 and now can do about 45 minutes, the most that I'd want to do anyway. The "big engine" aspect of it comes in because I can do a 6 minute mile without too much work and I'm not even a real runner. I wonder if runners who take up cycling can carry fitness over in the same way.

Runners switching to cycling find it as too easy and have a hard time keeping HR up. I did long distance running races (10 miles up to marathons) and couldn't get my HR past 150 no matter how hard I tried.

Fit Runners don't have cycling muscles that allow them excercise hard enough to get their pulse up when cycling. Fit Cyclists don't have running muscles that allow them excercise hard enough to get their pulse up when running, so running uphill helps use the muscles we do have...Cycling will help your hill running, and allow to get lots of hours of training without running overuse injuries.

IMHO running will make you.....wish you were cycling

Fit Runners don't have cycling muscles that allow them excercise hard enough to get their pulse up when cycling. Fit Cyclists don't have running muscles that allow them excercise hard enough to get their pulse up when running, so running uphill helps use the muscles we do have...Cycling will help your hill running, and allow to get lots of hours of training without running overuse injuries.

IMHO running will make you.....wish you were cycling

I've experienced this exact thing. I think that cycling stresses particular quad muscles more than the run, so for runners, the limitations in those particular muscle fibers will cap their cycling ability. Running however, utilizes more muscles of the leg, so cyclists will get tremendously sore in those underutilized muscles if they just go out at run fast or long. While they do tend to complement each other to some degree, they definitely need to be separately trained to achieve good results. On the bright side, the cardio overlaps completely, so with my strong run background, I find that I've improved on the bike much, much faster than a typical new cyclist.

What's interesting is Lance Armstrong running several marathons in respectable times, all under 3 hours.

Runners who become cyclists can do both. But I find cyclist with no running background have no interest in running.

Warm up and don't overdo the grade, as it puts extra stress on your Archiles tendon and calf musclesWell, there's a variety of muscle recruited in each type of exercise. And because of this lack of balanced development, cyclists are much more likely to hurt themselves running that runners hurting themselves cycling.

However, you seem to imply that heart rate, and fitness for each task somehow track each other or carry over.
and I'm so slow yet fit from riding, my pulse stays at about 100 BPM.
I disagree. I'm not sure what or where you think your pulse should of or could have been, but whatever your relative cardiovascular efficiency for riding, I can assure you, you will have to train at running to see similar results while running. Your HR was low, because you were running slow.

Try triathlons...

Yep!

Runners switching to cycling find it as too easy and have a hard time keeping HR up. I did long distance running races (10 miles up to marathons) and couldn't get my HR past 150 no matter how hard I tried.

Find a hillier route.

Try triathlons...


Yep!

Double Yep...:thumb:

Ive got a 13 mile in me on my wifes treadmill.

Put that in ya pipe and smoke it. ;)

When I tried jogging (albeit non-seriously), my HR went up to 160 and stood there. I wasn't going that fast either.

When I'm on the treadmill, I did notice that I can hold a 10 or 15 minute session a lot easier now, even with a moderate speed (8 mph).

I've been trying to add running into my regimen for a couple of years now. At first, each time I tried I'd do well for a week or two and then BAM - injury. Usually a pulled muscle in my calf (gastrocnemius) that kept me off the track for a couple of weeks. Finally I realized that I had to take it really, really easy since what seemed like an easy workout was still really hard on my untrained muscles. So I switched to a treadmill.

I've been using a treadmill now for three months, and have suffered no problems yet. By carefully monitoring the treadmill pace, I can force myself not to go to hard. I'm still going very, very slowly, but I've increased my time well beyond what I was doing before.

I'm hoping someday to do a triathlon, but for now I've just got to be patient.

i tried running cross country in 9th grade. i was almost the slowest on the team (26 minute 5k was my best. the best on the team was 15:XX)

when the team rode bikes to a new running spot, i smoked them all on bikes. the fastest people on the team couldn't keep up with me all the way to the trail. it was awesome. that, and i was doing wheelies past people that were trying to figure out how to shift gears lol.

my point is, that there are body types, like mine, that excel a bit at biking (i'm certainly not competition material), but find their legs to heavy to be great at running. running kills me cause my legs are too heavy. my joints hurt and i always have a slow turn over when running.

this may be a little off topic, i just always thought it was an interesting observation that somewhat pertains to this thread.

I agree that body types, especially large bodied and larged-legged have more of a disadvantage on the run than the bike. Hence all those skinny Kenyan marathoners. (Their thin legs have been studied and are thought by sport scientists to be part of their dominance.)

Still, as a budding triathlete, I've noticed that competitors who are strong on the run are generally quite strong on the bike. You can always see the pure runner in the trifield who's ripping 15min5ks after a sloooow swim, but their bike time is usually in the top group unless they're on a mtnbike. I haven't come across many top AG run finishers who finish in the bottom 1/3rd of the bike - they're almost always in the top 25%, if not top 10%. On the other hand, there are definitely more cyclists who are strong on the bike yet fall flat on the run. Like top 10% bike, bottom 30% run.

I did my first tri with minimal bike training, and was 3rd/60 AG on the run (I'm a runner), and 7th/60 on the bike with a nonmaximal effort, beating a lot of bike specialists on some fancy hardware.

Cycling can be hard as heck, but I do find that for me, long hard run workouts are MUCH tougher on my body than cycling. I just rode with mod-hi intensity for 4 hrs miles in all steep mountain climbing territory this wknd, and I would have to say it was equivalent to perhaps the beat-down of an 8 mile moderate paced run (1hr 8mins), which is a daily type workout for me. I think the pounding of the run plus no downhill cruising gives a pretty no-compromise workout on the run that actually translates fairly well to the bike.

But it's true that to be truly strong, you have to do the discipline. In the cyclist racing group that I ride with sometimes on the weekends, where almost everyone besides me is a pure cyclist, I have a really hard time even hanging with the rear pack, and the front guys are totally out of my league.

Swimming is a whole different story - it's all over the map, with little/no correlation for people dominant in one discipline.

I use a treadmill to keep in shape when I’m working offshore, and typically run 60 minutes two/three times a week @ 11 to 15 kph (intervals). When I go running (not on a treadmill) I find my HR is 20% to 30% higher for the same distance / speed on a treadmill. I also find that running really puts the hurt on my body compared to cycling, and I generally have a much higher HR when running. I was never a runner, and have been into cycling for the last 20 years.

I ran in high school and in college my freshmen year. I switched over to cycling pretty easily.. I think the switch to running from cycling is a lot harder.

The amount of pounding that your body takes when putting in the 1000-1200 miles between the track and cross country seasons doesn't compare to anything in cycling.

*Another example of how hard the switch from cycling to running is: Lance Armstrong's sub-3 hour marathons are nothing special. Especially when you consider the size of that engine. I would run that pace for my 20 milers when I was 17.

I ran in high school and in college my freshmen year. I switched over to cycling pretty easily.. I think the switch to running from cycling is a lot harder.

The amount of pounding that your body takes when putting in the 1000-1200 miles between the track and cross country seasons doesn't compare to anything in cycling.

*Another example of how hard the switch from cycling to running is: Lance Armstrong's sub-3 hour marathons are nothing special. Especially when you consider the size of that engine. I would run that pace for my 20 milers when I was 17.


i totally disagree. a sub 3 hour marathon at his age is special. especially considering he grossly undertrained for the first one in NY. lets not confuse or mix his effort with the elites. he is not an elite runner. a sub 3 hour marathon for any amature is impressive and something to be proud of. later.

Also, a 20 mile run is different than a 26 mile run. That last 6 miles makes a big difference. Young 17 year olds don't normally do marathons. I would say that coaches look to the more mature athlete, mentally and physically to do the longer distances.

I neither run like a pro or bike like a pro, but I do both. I'm 44 and overweight because I let emotions control what I eat. Both good and bad. It's a weakness. Anyway the secret method is to exercise and eat right. Check out the Abs Diet. It stresses eating 6 or so mini meals instead 3 big ones. Good book, good read and informative too.

Like I said, I do neither all the time, but I find running easier because I have a treadmill and it is not effected by weather. I bike on the weekends (alone) and do a couple of circuits around my house. I cannot do them during rush hours or when it is dark. However, I can definately tell that running is more of a workout for me. I suppose because of the hills and valleys in my bike route. However, I love to conquer this long uphill that is on my route on my bike. Since I ride only on the weekends, it is amazing the difference from one week to another. I feel this trememdous burn in my quads when I conqure this hill that I do not feel in my runs. So, to me there is a big difference between the two and each has it's advantages over the other.

I ride between 4000-5000 miles a year and have just started back running (plan is to run the Chicago Marathon with 2 of my kids who finished it this past October). I used to run a lot 15 years ago but cycling is so much more rewarding for me that I gave up the running. Anyway, what I have found as the only way to be able to maintain the running is a few things, first is what a lot of you said, starting out easy and keeping a reasonable pace that doesn't pound the legs, second, I'm doing a lot more stretching and third have been taking a joint booster that seems to be helping keep the knees behaving. Having said all this am only up to 10 miles a week. Personally, in both cycling and running, I need to be outdoors.

I been cycling for around 4 years now, and decided I'd try running yesterday with a guy from work.. Made the 2 miles I had set out to do in less than 20 minutes. I am very sore today.. didn't seem to take too much effort while running though.

last time I tried running I got bad shin pain.. I bought some heavily cushioned shoes and I worked on my form a little this time and no shin pain. Never knew I had to learn how to run. Now my upper legs are sore. Hopefully it'll go away tomorrow.

anyway you can't just jump into another endurance sport or any sport that matter that your not used to. Last round of Golf I played I had some weird sore muscles.

how long does the sorness last for everyone else???? Usually I can be sore for 2 days. Not from bikin,g I can do that every day, but any other physical stuff I'm not used to.

last time I tried running I got bad shin pain.. I bought some heavily cushioned shoes and I worked on my form a little this time and no shin pain. Never knew I had to learn how to run. Now my upper legs are sore. Hopefully it'll go away tomorrow.


That may have actually been a problem. What you need to do is go a a specialized running store (not Foot Locker/Sports Authority/etc...) and have one of the salespeople evaluate your run style, see where your pains are, and recommend a shoe for you. It's almost like a bike fitting, and just as important. It doesn't cost any extra, and all you are buying is a pair of shoes (around $100 or so). Well worth it, possibly even more so than a bike fitting.

I'm a runner who bikes. Running definitely makes cycling easier, though I'm not sure about the other way around. I would guess it helps though. There are different muscles involved though, so I have trouble keeping up the same level of cardiovascular intensity on my bike as I do when running. A big difference is that cycling doesn't have the same pounding on your body that running does, so you're able to exercise for longer while cycling than running.

DirtPedaler, as far as soreness, some of that can be eliminated by buying the correct shoes. Believe it or not, oftentimes shin pain is caused by overpronation, which is corrected by buying stability or motion control shoes...not cushioned shoes. That may be what's causing your upper leg soreness too. Go to a running specific store and ask them to analyze your stride...they'll probably have a treadmill and video camera set up...basically the running version of the Serotta cycle. You'd be very surprised how much of a difference the correct shoe makes. It's seriously the difference between someone going into a bike shop and buying whatever frame they can straddle comfortably versus actually getting fit.

F.W.I.W....

I used to be an avid runner...would put in 30-35 miles a week (over the course of 5 days) until my doctor told me it was killing my knees. So I started cycling, and fell in love with it.

When I first started cycling it was a bit difficult, your right...I had aches and pains where I was not used to. My neck and shoulders hurt (because of the way your neck and shoulders arch when in the drops on a road bike), and my glutes and hamstrings ached alot. I also found it very difficult to get my heart rate going. I can be going 20-22 mph on the bike with a cadence around 90-95 rpm and have found my heart rate to be in the 60's. Only when I drop a gear, get my cadence up to around 110-120 do I notice an increase in my heart rate.

What I found was that it was much easier to transition to cycling from running.

When you run...if you stop pumping your legs...you stop in your tracks. If you want to get home, you need to keep pushing. I also found it easier to get in my "zone". Because I was not concerned with cars, etc...I could focus on running. I could also push harder and hit my heart rate zone easier, could stay there longer, and found it easier to get better HR training this way.

When you ride...if you stop pumping your legs...you still can coast, and that seems like a big crutch for cyclists. I also found that I need to be more aware of my surroundings now because, I have to watch out for cars, when a light is changing, etc... Its more difficult to get into my "zone"....

Maybe its mental...knowing that you can take a break and still get closer to home.

Now that I am training for a Tri, when I get off the bike to run....my legs feel heavy the first quarter mile and I have to actually think about my running form until I get my legs underneath me.

Interesting thread - I starting biking heavily (at least by my standards - 70-80 miles per week) two years ago, but I don't enjoy winter cycling and abhor gyms so in November this year I took up running 2-3 times per week. I'd been averaging 10 minute miles, and am up to about 10 miles per week, all outdoors. This morning I ran a scored race for the first time ever, a 4-miler, and my miles averaged 9:20. I feel like I've made really good progress in running over the past two months.

(By the way, my first day running, the tendons around my knees were sore for two days. I haven't had any serious pain since.)

So, today in New York was warmer than it's been since early December, so this afternoon I took the bike out for the first time in '09. I was completely dead to the world after 10 miles - my thighs and calves both felt like bricks. Some of that is just because of fatigue from the morning run, certainly. But damn, getting back on the bike was a hell of a lot harder than I ever thought. I definitely feel like I worked more during the 40 minutes on the bike than I did in the 40 minutes' running.

I agree that body types, especially large bodied and larged-legged have more of a disadvantage on the run than the bike. Hence all those skinny Kenyan marathoners. (Their thin legs have been studied and are thought by sport scientists to be part of their dominance.)



I read in an article the other day that Kenyan running success is probably due to the high-cadence pace, as the OP suggests. It has been studied because it shouldn't work, according to biomechanics, but it seems to work for the same reasons that the 90+ cadence works in cycling: it puts more of the effort on the more resilient cardiovascular system and less on the slower recovering muscles.

I don't run myself, but if I did I would certainly try the high-cadence method, which I have also heard called the Kenyan method.

FYI, Lance started as a swimmer, switched to Tri's at 16 and then cycling. At 16 he was a lot faster triathlete than I was, but at least I could kick his ass on runs/track workouts (my 10k PR is 32:30).

+1 for getting your running shoes fit properly. I like Fleet Feet's approach, it is consistent and works.

What's interesting is Lance Armstrong running several marathons in respectable times, all under 3 hours.

Runners who become cyclists can do both. But I find cyclist with no running background have no interest in running.

Try 2:45, big diff there ;)

Anyone who is thinking of adding running to their workouts should try 4&2's. I do them for my distance workout for track (I'm definitely not a distance person, I'm a pole vaulter) and they are great. 4 minutes of fast jogging followed by 2 minutes of walking, kind of like intervals. You can work out for much longer, and you don't feel like you're dying the whole time, plus the two minutes is hardly enough time to drop your heart rate out of the aerobic zone unless your in great running shape, in which case you should have graduated to real distance running.