Living Car Free - Five Malls Stop Bus Sevice!

A lot of the handicapped who use buses to shop are elderly people who might be frail, easily fatigued, have poor coordination, or stumble easily. People with limited vision--like my dad--have problems in parking lots. They might not see cars, might not even see where the mall door is from the edge of the parking lot. Others might not be able to tolerate heat or cold due to disease or old age. Do you dispute anything in this paragraph?

Now we come to the question of what, if anything, we as a society should do for the elderly and handicapped. Mabe we should put them on an iceberg. Maybe we should give them a few handicap parking spaces. Maybe we should make it possible for them to live independently as long as possible. What do you think we should do?

Finally we come down to specifics. How much should we spend, and on what? How much would it cost to run the buses near the mall entrance? Would that be useful to some passengers? Would it harm anyone in any way?


For God Sakes that paragraph MOVED me.

We owe it to them to hire young people to carry them, bathe them and feed them. I say no less than 2 able bodied 20 somethings for every person over the age of 65. Note- I chose 65 knowing that the AARP would soon get it lowered to 60. I set the bar too low on purpose.

You can always play that sympathy card until pretty soon we have a bankrupt nation. Oh wait....that is already happening.

ust as subways and els do, buses already do as much as they can to help the walking-disabled. If that doesn't suffice, hire a para-transit.

Or take a cab. Or ride with friend or relative.

Or take a cab. Or ride with friend or relative.



Your mean. we as a society OWE it to do better than that.

You also better be sure that no one makes anymore money than anyone else too? That has got to stop.

A lot of the handicapped who use buses to shop are elderly people who might be frail, easily fatigued, have poor coordination, or stumble easily. People with limited vision--like my dad--have problems in parking lots. They might not see cars, might not even see where the mall door is from the edge of the parking lot. Others might not be able to tolerate heat or cold due to disease or old age. Do you dispute anything in this paragraph?

Now we come to the question of what, if anything, we as a society should do for the elderly and handicapped. Mabe we should put them on an iceberg. Maybe we should give them a few handicap parking spaces. Maybe we should make it possible for them to live independently as long as possible. What do you think we should do?

Finally we come down to specifics. How much should we spend, and on what? How much would it cost to run the buses near the mall entrance? Would that be useful to some passengers? Would it harm anyone in any way?

I do not dispute what you said in the first statement. We already give them a way to get around -- public transit. If they have more specific needs most counties have para-transit lines. Since you seem to be ignoring that, they are usually mini buses or vans with rather caring drivers who are under no time constraints. They are usually subsidiaries of public transit companies, or they are community companies that get funding another way. Unlike a cab, they charge a nominal fee ($3-$6 a trip).

Why run the buses to mall entrances when we have a good system already? The fees are low enough, the service decent enough, and the small vehicles don't cause a problem for others.

This is raising another question -- how do the disabled *get* to the bus stop? Perhaps they can't see well enough to find the sign, or read a timetable, or even be able to cross the street!

We are applying a general problem (disabled living) to a specific instance (removing buses from mall parking lots). The solution for the percentage of people who are adversely affected by the few hundred yards of additional movement is para-transit.

In my town they have a bus called "paratransit"

I get the feeling ( I admit I do not know) that this bus will pick you up at your house and drop you off at the door of pretty much anywhere you need to go.

I'm sure many other towns have that as well.

As I said before, paratransit is more expensive to operate than fixed route service. It's also more limiting for the passenger. Well-run bus companies want to encourage and enable more use of fixed route buses by the elderly and handicapped.

I've said many times before that nobody is asking for door to door service on fixed route buses. But in some cases, service is more convenient and accessible when a close approach is made to an especially popular destination. Often this can be done with very little inconvenience or expense to individuals, the bus company, or area businesses.

As I said before, paratransit is more expensive to operate than fixed route service. It's also more limiting for the passenger. Well-run bus companies want to encourage and enable more use of fixed route buses by the elderly and handicapped.

I've said many times before that nobody is asking for door to door service on fixed route buses. But in some cases, service is more convenient and accessible when a close approach is made to an especially popular destination. Often this can be done with very little inconvenience or expense to individuals, the bus company, or area businesses.


Lets have the bus route go through the mall. The entire notion of a mall is against handicapped people. You are supposed to walk from store to store. Hell, you might have to walk for 10 minutes to go from one end to the other.

A bus that runs down the hallways would really be better. I'm going to push for that law. What is nancy pelosi's phone number?

As I said before, paratransit is more expensive to operate than fixed route service. It's also more limiting for the passenger. Well-run bus companies want to encourage and enable more use of fixed route buses by the elderly and handicapped.

I've said many times before that nobody is asking for door to door service on fixed route buses. But in some cases, service is more convenient and accessible when a close approach is made to an especially popular destination. Often this can be done with very little inconvenience or expense to individuals, the bus company, or area businesses.

OK OK, agreed. The King of Prussia Mall (biggest mall in this area) has its SEPTA center right outside the door.

The problem is in this thread we are not told why the buses are being moved, or if it's even a problem in the U.S. Living in Delco for my entire life, I have seen the MacDade mall go from a respectable hangout to a bleak hallway over 10 years. It is likely that SEPTA moved the routes because not even seniors go there. IF anything, they go to the Burger King of McDs that are closer to the new stop location.

OK OK, agreed. The King of Prussia Mall (biggest mall in this area) has its SEPTA center right outside the door.

The problem is in this thread we are not told why the buses are being moved, or if it's even a problem in the U.S. Living in Delco for my entire life, I have seen the MacDade mall go from a respectable hangout to a bleak hallway over 10 years. It is likely that SEPTA moved the routes because not even seniors go there. IF anything, they go to the Burger King of McDs that are closer to the new stop location.

Yet another point that I already made. Malls are dying out anyway, so in a few years this will be a moot point.

But the larger issue will remain. Should public destinations be made more accessible toeople who don't drive cars? And that, IMO, includes both the able-bodied and the handicapped.

This is raising another question -- how do the disabled *get* to the bus stop? Perhaps they can't see well enough to find the sign, or read a timetable, or even be able to cross the street!

That is exactly the point the service I already made that Roody et al. are demanding about door to door delivery being required to be humane and compassionate IAW Roody's scheme of bus service. What good is a dropping the disabled at the mall entrance if these individuals don't have the physical/mental means to transport themselves any distance (according to Roody) at the other end from the bus stop to their residence?


OK OK, agreed. The King of Prussia Mall (biggest mall in this area) has its SEPTA center right outside the door.
Presumably to satisfy Roody, the bus should stop at every door, since as you pointed out King of Prussia IS a BIG mall. How discriminatory if they don't stop in front of the specific door of the store that some disadvantaged person might like to window shop, or end up at after a day of wandering/shopping.

Yet another point that I already made. Malls are dying out anyway, so in a few years this will be a moot point.

Your source for this fascinating observation?

Malls are dying out anyway, so in a few years this will be a moot point.

Are yours really? Our malls seem to be doing well enough - the closest to me is completing its second expansion in 5 years, which they credit in part to being attached to a major transit hub.

Are yours really? Our malls seem to be doing well enough - the closest to me is completing its second expansion in 5 years, which they credit in part to being attached to a major transit hub.



I imagine he is a "peak oil" follower.

I have heard that from them many times.

OK OK, agreed. The King of Prussia Mall (biggest mall in this area) has its SEPTA center right outside the door.

True, but the King of Prussia Plaza is an actual mall, whereas the MacDade Mall and the Eddystone center are both essentially strip centers. Even with a bus stop near the mall entrance, I think that the King of Prussia Plaza probably cause substantially more difficulties for people with mobility impairments simply by virtue of its size. The distance from one end of the King of Prussia Mall to the other is approximately nine times the distance from the new bus stop at the MacDade Mall to the mall entrance. As I noted earlier in the thread, the parking lot alone of the King of Prussia Plaza is bigger than the entire MacDade Mall. Like I said earlier, people walk twice as far to get from their cars to the mall entrance at King of Prussia than bus riders walk to get from the new bus stop at the MacDade Mall to the mall entrance.


The problem is in this thread we are not told why the buses are being moved, or if it's even a problem in the U.S.

SEPTA's website indicates that the bus stops were moved at the specific request of the mall management company. I have heard that the reason the management company did this was because neither the management company nor SEPTA would agree to cover the extra insurance charges associated with having the bus stop on the shopping centers property. I do not know if this is true.

Presumably to satisfy Roody, the bus should stop at every door, since as you pointed out King of Prussia IS a BIG mall. How discriminatory if they don't stop in front of the specific door of the store that some disadvantaged person might like to window shop, or end up at after a day of wandering/shopping.

Actually, at least during the holidays, the King of Prussia Plaza runs a courtesy shuttle, which does stop at each mall entrance. Of course, this is run by the mall itself, and is not part of the public transit system:

http://www.kingofprussiamall.com/images/aerialview.gif

In any event, I think that it is this type of mall that most people in this thread are imagining. But the reality is that the Delaware County properties that are the subject of the article in the OP are much smaller than the typical mall, which is why the three of us who are actually familiar with those properties are not outraged by this change.

This is an interesting 2007 article from The Economist magazine.


...Invented by a European socialist who hated cars and came to deride his own creation, it has a murky future. While malls continue to multiply outside America, they are gradually dying in the country that pioneered them.

Rise & fall of the shopping mall (http://www.economist.com/world/unitedstates/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10278717)

I imagine he is a "peak oil" follower.

I have heard that from them many times.

Like I said, you know nothing about me.

Your source for this fascinating observation?

It isn't exactly a secret. I've read a number of articles in the last 20 years or so--newspapers, news magazines, retail trade publications, etc. More malls are closing than opening. Many that are not closing are being converted to outdoor shopping centers by removing the enclosed corridors. New shopping centers are usually built in a faux "Main Street" style.

There are a number of reasons for this. One reason is that able-bodied motorists resent having to walk from store to store in a mall. They prefer to park right outside the store they're visiting, like they do at strip malls. :rolleyes:

It isn't exactly a secret. I've read a number of articles in the last 20 years or so--newspapers, news magazines, retail trade publications, etc. More malls are closing than opening. Many that are not closing are being converted to outdoor shopping centers by removing the enclosed corridors. New shopping centers are usually built in a faux "Main Street" style.

There are a number of reasons for this. One reason is that able-bodied motorists resent having to walk from store to store in a mall. They prefer to park right outside the store they're visiting, like they do at strip malls. :rolleyes:

The average person is so fat, weak and sick that they can't possibly enjoy a mall.

The average person is so fat, weak and sick that they can't possibly enjoy a mall.

I'm strong and healthy, but I can't enjoy a mall either. ;)

Yet another point that I already made. Malls are dying out anyway, so in a few years this will be a moot point.

It isn't exactly a secret. I've read a number of articles in the last 20 years or so--newspapers, news magazines, retail trade publications, etc. More malls are closing than opening. Many that are not closing are being converted to outdoor shopping centers by removing the enclosed corridors. New shopping centers are usually built in a faux "Main Street" style.

There are a number of reasons for this. One reason is that able-bodied motorists resent having to walk from store to store in a mall. They prefer to park right outside the store they're visiting, like they do at strip malls. :rolleyes:

Your "articles" that reveal to you that some malls succeed while others fail and that some malls are not built/renovated with the same look as the old, hardly reveals the secret that only you seem to know: that malls are dying out, and transportation to them, will be a moot point in several years.

Your one reason for the death of formerly successful malls (in reality the failure of some) is far less likely than competition from similar malls/shopping centers that often are less affected by changing demographics of its clientele or location. But of course that doesn't fit into your PC frame of mind.

So keep on dreaming that suburbanites and people above the destitute level are all going to do their shopping by driving or riding their bikes to center city specialty stores, bodegas and family owned corner stores like the good old days; or better yet move downtown, to share the culture and lifestyle of the current inhabitants.

Your "articles" that reveal to you that some malls succeed while others fail and that some malls are not built/renovated with the same look as the old, hardly reveals the secret that only you seem to know: that malls are dying out, and transportation to them, will be a moot point in several years.

Your one reason for the death of formerly successful malls (in reality the failure of some) is far less likely than competition from similar malls/shopping centers that often are less affected by changing demographics of its clientele or location. But of course that doesn't fit into your PC frame of mind.

So keep on dreaming that suburbanites and people above the destitute level are all going to do their shopping by driving or riding their bikes to center city specialty stores, bodegas and family owned corner stores like the good old days; or better yet move downtown, to share the culture and lifestyle of the current inhabitants.

If you had actually read my posts, instead of dreaming up your own distorted version, you would know that I said nothing about "driving or riding their bikes to center city specialty stores, bodegas and family owned corner stores." I know as well as you do that most new shopping construction is in suburbs, exurbs and the outskirts of smaller towns. I said that covered or enclosed malls are closing down or converting to open-air shopping centers. I also said that most new shopping centers are being built in a "faux Main St. style." I said there are a "number of reasons" for this, although I listed only the one that I thought would be most interesting to a carfree forum.

Here in Lansing we still have two enclosed malls in the suburbs. One seems to be doing badly, and I don't think it will survive the recession/depression we're experiencing. Our third enclosed mall, closer to the ciy center, was converted to an open shopping center a few years ago. Our new shopping center (suburb) was constructed in the "Main Street" style, with parking all around blocks (not strips) of the usual mall anchors and chain stores, so nobody has to walk very far.

I like the new styles better than the enclosed malls because I can park my bike within sight of the store I'm visiting--and I don't have to walk very far. :D Three or four bus lines run right through both, so bus passengers don't have to walk far either. :p

(I-L-T-B: The entire first paragraph of this post was a rebuttal to your deliberate misstatement of my earlier posts. That's a waste of my time, my left-hand-only typing skills, and the readers' patience. I will not do this again, so please try not to mangle my words in the future.)

If you had actually read my posts, instead of dreaming up your own distorted version, you would know that I said nothing about "driving or riding their bikes to center city specialty stores, bodegas and family owned corner stores." I know as well as you do that most new shopping construction is in suburbs, exurbs and the outskirts of smaller towns. I said that covered or enclosed malls are closing down or converting to open-air shopping centers. I also said that most new shopping centers are being built in a "faux Main St. style." I said there are a "number of reasons" for this, although I listed only the one that I thought would be most interesting to a carfree forum.

Here in Lansing we still have two enclosed malls in the suburbs. One seems to be doing badly, and I don't think it will survive the recession/depression we're experiencing. Our third enclosed mall, closer to the ciy center, was converted to an open shopping center a few years ago. Our new shopping center (suburb) was constructed in the "Main Street" style, with parking all around blocks (not strips) of the usual mall anchors and chain stores, so nobody has to walk very far.

I like the new styles better than the enclosed malls because I can park my bike within sight of the store I'm visiting--and I don't have to walk very far. :D Three or four bus lines run right through both, so bus passengers don't have to walk far either. :p

(I-L-T-B: The entire first paragraph of this post was a rebuttal to your deliberate misstatement of my earlier posts. That's a waste of my time, my left-hand-only typing skills, and the readers' patience. I will not do this again, so please try not to mangle my words in the future.)



Michigan is in a tail spin. Your view of what can and cannot survive is based upon your location. Michigan is probably as bad as it gets.