Living Car Free - Five Malls Stop Bus Sevice!

SEPTA buses won’t stop in malls now

Tuesday, October 21, 2008 9:57 AM EDT
By John M. Roman, jroman@delcotimes.com

At the request of five area malls and commercial centers, SEPTA will discontinue bus service on its property and provide service for bus routes 92, 107, 111, 114 and 115 along roads near the centers.

MacDade Mall — bus Route 107 — will now operate in both directions along Ashland Avenue, MacDade Boulevard and South Avenue without making stops into the MacDade Mall. Route 107 bus stops located in the mall will be removed and relocated at the intersection of MacDade Boulevard and South Avenue.

Route 107 will no longer serve Academy Avenue in the Briarcliffe section of the township.

MacDade Mall — all bus Route 115 trips coming from the Delmar Village will stop at South Avenue and MacDade Boulevard. The Route 115 will also be extended over MacDade Boulevard, Ashland Avenue and Academy Avenue.


Route 115 bus stops located in the mall will be removed. Mall passengers should board buses along South Avenue.

Franklin Mint Office Park — bus Route 111 — will now operate in both directions along Baltimore Pike without making stops into the Franklin Mint Office Park. Route 111 bus stops located in the office park will be removed.

Eddystone Crossing Shopping Center — bus Route 114 — will now operate in both directions along Chester Pike without making stops in the Eddystone Crossing Shopping Center. Route 114 bus stops located in the shopping center will be removed.<<<<<<

This is an outrage! These malls are getting rid of bus stops forcing the buses to stop on the highway! Incredible! With the stops located on the highway, what carfree person in their mind would want to stand on the highway at night or during terrible weather? I keep reading more stories just like this where malls are trying to charge the bus companies for the privilege of driving into the mall parking lot. The whole situation is insane.

http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2008/10/21/news/doc48fd526ed6af4205813464.txt

Why do the malls not want the buses to bring them customers? That doesn't make sense.

Why do the malls not want the buses to bring them customers? That doesn't make sense.

Makes sense to me. IN my hometown of Columbia Missouri the busses on Friday nights were full of teens and preteens on their way to that free baby sitting service called "the mall."

There they fought, yelled, screamed, curses and shoplifted until no adult in their right mind would go there to shop. Now there is a rule in the malls that anyone under the age of 16 has to have an adult along with them.

I assume that is a problem with the bus system. It brings along poor and unsavory "customers."

I say this as a "car free" person.

Makes sense to me. IN my hometown of Columbia Missouri the busses on Friday nights were full of teens and preteens on their way to that free baby sitting service called "the mall."

There they fought, yelled, screamed, curses and shoplifted until no adult in their right mind would go there to shop. Now there is a rule in the malls that anyone under the age of 16 has to have an adult along with them.

I assume that is a problem with the bus system. It brings along poor and unsavory "customers."

I say this as a "car free" person.

You're kidding, right?

It was a mistake and will be corrected once they find out bus people won't go there or buy anything.
And when they do the bus should charge them.
If the bus stopped there in the first place there is a need for it.
It might speed up the overall bus depending on route.
Google map?
However I use unfriendly people out sheer need.

You're kidding, right?

I've got a funny feeling he's not. Malls want people in, spend money, get out.

'In' is real easy. 'Get out' is eventually doable, the question is how much are they using mall facilities before getting out, and how is that being offset by personal spending.

'Spend money' is a lot harder, and I've got a feeling somewhere along the line someone has done a study showing that the odds are a lot greater of someone actually spending money in a mall if they got there . . . . . . . . . . wait for it . . . . . . . . . . . . in a car, as opposed to getting there in any other form of transportation.

And yeah, I understand the 'anti teens' attitude - and at the age of 58, I have a hard time disagreeing with it. The hang out crowd definitely wore out their welcome years ago.

I've got a funny feeling he's not. Malls want people in, spend money, get out.

I don't think gosmsgo's kidding, either. The one time my friend and I rode the bus to the mall -- this was probably 25 years ago -- it was loaded with rowdy kids. Honestly, that's not an experience I'm willing to put up with. Without their parents to control them, kids will go out of their way to be more obnoxious than their friends, and regular people get caught in the crossfire.

There's probably more to this, too. The few coherent comments on that article's page allude to things like insurance costs (possibly additional insurance just to let buses on the property), malls that are dying anyway, and -- oh, get this -- "Granite Run Mall...has been nothing but trouble since certain buses have been dropping off there."

You're kidding, right?

Nope...been going on for years. Malls all over the place are starting to restrict anyone under the age of 18 that is there without a parent/guardian after certain hours. There was a huge brawl at a mall in the large town north of me several months ago that lead to the restrictions, the brawl involved teens and had to be broken up by shotgun wielding state troopers. They have been restricting buses since it opened several years ago. I don't shop malls, except as a last resort. As usual the actions of a few affect many.

Aaron:)

Makes sense to me. IN my hometown of Columbia Missouri the busses on Friday nights were full of teens and preteens on their way to that free baby sitting service called "the mall."

There they fought, yelled, screamed, curses and shoplifted until no adult in their right mind would go there to shop. Now there is a rule in the malls that anyone under the age of 16 has to have an adult along with them.

I assume that is a problem with the bus system. It brings along poor and unsavory "customers."

I say this as a "car free" person.

Same thing in a lot of malls across the USA. Students are not allowed without parents. I am not a mall shopper, so I missed the whole hubbub but I guess it was a real problem.

Unlike the 1980's "Fast Times at Ridgemont High" glory days when kids used to hang out at the mall and shoot spitballs at the Orange Julius shop, today's kids are apparently more troublesome - causing trouble and not spending money. Humbug.

http://thisdistractedglobe.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/fast-times-at-ridgemont-high-1982-sean-penn-pic-3.jpg http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/snarl/files/2007/03/880800%20Karl%20and%20Gillian%20Cape%20Cod%20Mall.JPG

This is an outrage! These malls are getting rid of bus stops forcing the buses to stop on the highway! Incredible! With the stops located on the highway, what carfree person in their mind would want to stand on the highway at night or during terrible weather? I keep reading more stories just like this where malls are trying to charge the bus companies for the privilege of driving into the mall parking lot. The whole situation is insane.
Maybe the mall management has made their decision based on their evaluation of "the type of people" who ride the bus and have guessed what they might do while at the mall. Ya know, like your impressions of "the type of people" who park cheap bikes at a public bike rack.


Those bike racks only attach the front or rear wheel. No wonder there aren't many people using them! LOL.

Seriously, I would never use those bike rack unless I'm riding some $50.00 dollar rusting Huffy. All you have to do is look at the bicycles locked to those racks and that will tell you the type of people using them. When they come back to get their rusting beater and see your $800.00 dollar brand new bike, guess what they're going to do?

http://67.201.16.77/showpost.php?p=7854676&postcount=4

This is an outrage! These malls are getting rid of bus stops forcing the buses to stop on the highway! Incredible! With the stops located on the highway, what carfree person in their mind would want to stand on the highway at night or during terrible weather? I keep reading more stories just like this where malls are trying to charge the bus companies for the privilege of driving into the mall parking lot. The whole situation is insane.

Perhaps not so insane. Perhaps the mall parking lots were being heavily used by commuters as a park and ride location. If those commuters tended to park close to the mall entrance to be near the bus stop, they would be using parking spaces that the mall tenants would rather be left open for customers. The mall also pays for maintenance of the parking lot, so if commuters are using the lot all day for their car storage, it would be fair for the mall owners to seek some compensation.

I'd try this if I had a problem with teenagers:

http://www.kidsbegone.com/

today's kids are apparently more troublesome - causing trouble and not spending money.
Young people have always caused trouble, but this not spending thing needs to be nipped in the bud. Not spending money at the mall is only the gateway. Unchecked, it inevitably leads to not spending on cars and not spending on big houses. Those little hoodlum slackers will be the ruination of our non negotiable American way of life.

I avoid going to malls because I got tired of fighting crowds of damned kids!
Now I go to the buffet so I can fight crowds of seniors with coupons!
If I want real fun, I can always go to any convenience store or gas station and fight crowds of lotto ticket buyers of all ages! :p

Well, for every rowdy kid who buses to the mall, there are at least 5 older people who are going there to shop. Buses run to all the Lansing area malls and to the main big box areas. In fact, three bus routes exist solely to serve the malls. One is even called "the grocery bus." My bus company just got a millage tax increase approved by the voters 64-36. Their main argument was that good bus service is good for retail sales, and they had figures to back this up.

^^^ It certainly depends on the location, then. My closest mall, Pentagon City, gets a lot of traffic from tourist buses -- you'll see a small fleet of them parked out front almost every day. Plenty of kids, of course, but also a lot of chaperones and parents. There's another one at Tyson's Corner that's pretty high-end and just doesn't seem to have that kind of "teenage daycare" traffic (don't know whether it's just that way or if they have policies about unaccompanied kids).

But, there are plenty of others that aren't good destinations anymore. wahoonc's recollection of a big brawl should be a solid example of how they can suck.

Honestly, these reactionary threads get old. There's some headline that seems anti-pedestrian or anti-cyclist or pro-car, somebody jumps on it and brings it here for us to bash, and nearly every time it's rebuked with responses like, "Well, yeah, they had to do that here, too."

I would much prefer regulations/policies that make individuals accountable, rather than punishing innocent people for the actions of rowdy teens--who are a small subgroup of a subgroup. The downtown shopping districts have good police protection. Malls chose to set up private enclaves outside of city limits in order to dodge taxes. They don't want to pick up the slack by paying for adequate security. Instead, they enact exclusionary policies that are borderline unconstitutional, such as "no bus riders" or even "no teenagers." I'm glad that malls are retailing dinosaurs that are rapidly becoming extinct in most parts of the world.

I would much prefer regulations/policies that make individuals accountable, rather than punishing innocent people for the actions of rowdy teens--who are a small subgroup of a subgroup. The downtown shopping districts have good police protection. Malls chose to set up private enclaves outside of city limits in order to dodge taxes. They don't want to pick up the slack by paying for adequate security. Instead, they enact exclusionary policies that are borderline unconstitutional, such as "no bus riders" or even "no teenagers." I'm glad that malls are retailing dinosaurs that are rapidly becoming extinct in most parts of the world.
Used to be parents were responsible for their teens and their actions, but not anymore, a portion of our society refuses to be responsible for their actions or much of anything else.

Unfortunately too much of our retail has moved away from where people live into hard to access zones. For a brief time I worked at our local mall (back in the late 70's) we had the teens there then, but didn't have the shoplifting, fighting and other issues that seem to have escalated today. The bus service to our mall still sucks 30 years later. If you are a mall worker you are SOL if you have to work a closing shift. There is some nearby housing but I doubt you could afford to live there on a retail salary...

FWIW malls have a "life expectancy" of 25-30 years depending on the locale. I have seen many dead malls where newer malls had been built somewhere else and the retail sector followed, there are a few exceptions. I would like to see malls converted to small towns with retail, restaurant and housing all in the same building.

Aaron:)

For a brief time I worked at our local mall (back in the late 70's) we had the teens there then, but didn't have the shoplifting, fighting and other issues that seem to have escalated today.
I believe you, but it's hard to explain this. Overall crime rates are much lower today than 30 years ago, and I believe juvenile crime has decreased even more. I don't know why this trend doesn't apply to malls. Maybe young people feel like malls are beyond the law, since they're policed by private security?




The bus service to our mall still sucks 30 years later. If you are a mall worker you are SOL if you have to work a closing shift. There is some nearby housing but I doubt you could afford to live there on a retail salary...

FWIW malls have a "life expectancy" of 25-30 years depending on the locale. I have seen many dead malls where newer malls had been built somewhere else and the retail sector followed, there are a few exceptions. I would like to see malls converted to small towns with retail, restaurant and housing all in the same building.


Inaccessability is still the best reason to hold onto a car. People are letting these private concerns dictate public policy. The towns should tell the malls, "If you choose to restrict buses and bikes, we will remove the public streets that lead to your parking lot. You're welcome to build and maintain streets at your own expense." Then they should also cut off water mains, sewerage and police/fire protection.

Not bloody likely! :D

Maybe the mall management has made their decision based on their evaluation of "the type of people" who ride the bus and have guessed what they might do while at the mall. Ya know, like your impressions of "the type of people" who park cheap bikes at a public bike rack.



http://67.201.16.77/showpost.php?p=7854676&postcount=4

Alright you got me! Maybe my type of words were not correct but that doesn't change the situation. The worse place to park your bicycle at a mall or train station are the bike racks! It's due to the fact there's no security at all and the mall's attitude is you park at your own risk. From personal experience, I cannot recommend anyone use a bike rack. It may have been a good idea 50 years ago but not anymore.

The bus is a different story. The overwhelming people who use the bus are women, children and the elderly followed by men and teenagers. The malls today are looking for profit centers and figure they can charge the bus companies extra for what used to be free becuase of insurance issues.

If there are problems with teenagers, it's due to malls not providing enough security. There are numerous malls located in bad neighborhoods but they are not stopping public transit from providing service. As I said before, it's not the crime issue that's forcing these decisions but the insurance companies trying to make more money. If that's the case, the state should tax the insurance companies 3 times what they are charging the malls and this money should be handed to the transit companies to pay the malls. That would end the problem real quick!

The towns should tell the malls, "If you choose to restrict buses and bikes, we will remove the public streets that lead to your parking lot. You're welcome to build and maintain streets at your own expense." Then they should also cut off water mains, sewerage and police/fire protection.

Not bloody likely! :D

The whole problem is simple to resolve. The state government should tell the malls, they will receive a surcharge tax to pay for the "Extra Fuel" the buses must use since they cannot take a short cut through the mall. I can assure you, those buses will be allowed to enter as no one wants their taxes raised in any manner!

Why do the malls not want the buses to bring them customers? That doesn't make sense.


No, they really do not. If not the malls, the patrons do not. Around here, I have heard people complaining many times about buses going to the malls, buses running into a certain suburb town (with veiled references to the project there), and open comments about the type of people buses bring to the malls.

People who ride the bus are seen as scum by the white suburbanites - and the women seem to be the most vocal about it.

Nope...been going on for years. Malls all over the place are starting to restrict anyone under the age of 18 that is there without a parent/guardian after certain hours. There was a huge brawl at a mall in the large town north of me several months ago that lead to the restrictions, the brawl involved teens and had to be broken up by shotgun wielding state troopers. They have been restricting buses since it opened several years ago. I don't shop malls, except as a last resort. As usual the actions of a few affect many.

Aaron:)

Yea, I just moved out of north Raleigh, very close to Triangle. I never really paid attention to the "big fight" to even know who was involved, but this is the story that led to most of the racist comments on WRAL's site I was referring to. The ones that really stuck in my head were along the lines of "we chose to live in Wake Forest to stay away from these people". Crabtree has been fighting the bus stops there for decades it seems like. Maybe it's just talk though since all the major malls that I can think of still have stops.

Real World Example: Mills Mall, in the suburbs of St Louis, is right off a public transportation route and it almost immediately became a hot center for gang activity. Quoting from one of the security guards (who uses the PT from downtown) "I've never seen a place turn downtown so quickly."
It's an unfortunate reality, but some people think that people riding the bus are more likely to shoplift or spend less money than people in cars.

Real World Example: Mills Mall, in the suburbs of St Louis, is right off a public transportation route and it almost immediately became a hot center for gang activity. Quoting from one of the security guards (who uses the PT from downtown) "I've never seen a place turn downtown so quickly."
It's an unfortunate reality, but some people think that people riding the bus are more likely to shoplift or spend less money than people in cars.

Of course, few are aware that hoodlums, teenagers and other general riffraff are predominantly car drivers. Keeping bus traffic away from the Malls is unlikely to solve any problem at all and it will of course reduce the amount of traffic to the Mall and hurt those who use public transportation.

When I look at bus traffic to the local Malls, they do look like just about any other citizens... just that they don't have cars to park. You'd think not having to provide parking for all these cars would be a bonus...

I believe you, but it's hard to explain this. Overall crime rates are much lower today than 30 years ago, and I believe juvenile crime has decreased even more. I don't know why this trend doesn't apply to malls. Maybe young people feel like malls are beyond the law, since they're policed by private security?

Roody,

A lot of the problem is more subtle: We've had the problem here in Richmond, where the massive South Park Mall (between Richmond and Petersburg) became completely inhospitable to serious shoppers on weekends due to masses of teens and tweens turning the place into a giant clubhouse. The mall itself wasn't complaining until the stores who were renting space in the mall started complaining big time. For the majority of them, it wasn't worth being open from Friday evening through Sunday evening because the place was filled with kids who were hanging on and buying nothing.

Of course there were a few legal problems, but it hadn't exactly turned into New Jack City.

What was a pleasant environment for them was a lousy shopping environment for older (say, 21 and up) customers who would actually come into the place with the intention of spending money. Who shopped elsewhere in that time period. And that was hurting the businesses who were trying to make a living there. And it IS a mall - let's not kid ourselves, in this situation profit is what counts. Period. No freaking exceptions. And you're kidding yourself if you're trying to argue an exception.

In anything, too much excess ruins any situation. Take a nice public outdoor park, get too many starlings, geese, whatever natural species in there, and it becomes uncomfortable (territorial problems, excrement, whatever) for the humans who built the place. At which point, you start culling the wildlife back so the humans can start enjoying what they built, or at least paid for to be built. The mall is no different - the interloping specie just changes.

Malls are not public thoroughfares, they're private property who can limit who comes on the property and remove anybody for any whim (usually pertaining to the potential to hurt business). After the South Park matter hit the papers, I noticed the malls closer to where I live rapidly posted regulations that politely said, "If you're a teen, don't plan on making this your clubhouse. Feel free to come and shop, have a good time, buy lots of stuff, and leave."

Other hard cold reality we need to live with: In America, as I write this, if you're getting around by bus, bicycle, walking, etc., you're probably a poor person. Demographically, you're not good business potential. Yeah, that's changing. It hasn't changed enough yet for the malls to notice, or take seriously (with a few exceptions, I would guess). People with money drive cars. Life's a *****.

What does this have to do with buses? Does anybody really believe that people who ride buses are crazed hordes of non-spending looters and pillagers? How do we (or the mall owners) know that the kids involved in this alleged "mall brawl" didn't drive up in cars or SUVs? Or ride bikes to the mall?

I live in a big tough city. I really don't enjoy riding the bus at 3:45 on a school day because some of the students are loud and rude. But they're not violent. And their behavior improves dramatically when the adults in the community put their foot down. A tough policy on public conduct will work if it's a community policy that isn't racist or disrespectful.

Malls can't pull off a tough policy because they are anti-community. They choose to be islands, protected from the real world by their acres of parking lots. They have no respect for the larger community and its history, traditions, strengths and problems. The centuries-old tradition of common space and the public street means nothing to them.

Besides, if you really want to see a riot at the mall, be there this Friday at 6:00 AM. See the SUV driving suburban grandmas tear each others' wigs off trying to get at the phony bargains. ;)

Other hard cold reality we need to live with: In America, as I write this, if you're getting around by bus, bicycle, walking, etc., you're probably a poor person. Demographically, you're not good business potential. Yeah, that's changing. It hasn't changed enough yet for the malls to notice, or take seriously (with a few exceptions, I would guess). People with money drive cars. Life's a *****.

Sorry, but this is absurd. I suspect that you haven't ridden on many buses, based on your misperception that most bus passengers are bums who don't have money.

If you ever do ride one, a good portion of your fellow passengers will be carrying shopping bags. Guess why? Because they have money, they go shopping, they use the bus to take them shopping. The largest number of bus trips are for commuting (to make money) and for shopping (to spend it). If the malls haven't noticed this fact, it helps to explain why they're rapidly disappearing.

I think what he was saying is that's how people who don't drive are viewed.

Sorry, but this is absurd. I suspect that you haven't ridden on many buses, based on your misperception that most bus passengers are bums who don't have money.

If you ever do ride one, a good portion of your fellow passengers will be carrying shopping bags. Guess why? Because they have money, they go shopping, they use the bus to take them shopping. The largest number of bus trips are for commuting (to make money) and for shopping (to spend it). If the malls haven't noticed this fact, it helps to explain why they're rapidly disappearing.

You make some really good points. My first reaction was F'em little *******s! But thinking about it; That doesn't fix the problem. They're just going to go and do that somewhere else. I agree with your stance on this matter.

And yeah I agree that kids today are at their best behavior ever. Teens today aren't ANYWHERE CLOSE to the pulling the kind of crap me and my peers used to pull. I was not close to pulling the kind of crap my uncles used to pull. And they were not even close to pulling the kind of crap my grandfather used to pull in his teens. Teens used to die frequently from their own stupidity then. I guess that's what happened when they didn't have tv, internet, or Video games.

They're still universally stupid as hell though.

Has anyone ever thought about the mega million dollar mall management companies are so incredibly cheap they will do anything to try to make a dollar? (like charging to let buses park on their property)

I work close with one such company and see how they will do anything to save or make a penny...:twitchy:

Young people have always caused trouble, but this not spending thing needs to be nipped in the bud. Not spending money at the mall is only the gateway. Unchecked, it inevitably leads to not spending on cars and not spending on big houses. Those little hoodlum slackers will be the ruination of our non negotiable American way of life.

Thanks for that revelation, Platy. Right you are! NON-SPENDING MUST BE STOPPED!

If non-spending can't be stopped through attacks on the self-esteem of non-spending citizens, then we might have to revert to government forced-spending (ie taxation).

Couldn't the problem with kids hanging around malls be solved by playing Barry Manilow music on the loudspeakers?

[B]MacDade Mall — all bus Route 115 trips coming from the Delmar Village will stop at South Avenue and MacDade Boulevard. The Route 115 will also be extended over MacDade Boulevard, Ashland Avenue and Academy Avenue.


Route 115 bus stops located in the mall will be removed. Mall passengers should board buses along South Avenue.

[snip]

This is an outrage! These malls are getting rid of bus stops forcing the buses to stop on the highway!

I don't think that the elimination of a bus stop in the parking lot of this particular "mall" is "outrageous." MacDade "Mall" is less three miles from my house. I put the word "mall" in quotes because the name is a misnomer. MacDade Mall consists of a supermarket, a K-Mart, and maybe two other stores. It is really not a "mall" in the sense that most of the people posting in this thread envision.

Here's a picture of MacDade Mall from the MacDade Boulevard side:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=macdade+mall&sll=39.886294,-75.316&sspn=0.044719,0.090981&ie=UTF8&ll=39.899662,-75.304842&spn=0,359.909019&z=14&iwloc=A&layer=c&cbll=39.899706,-75.304742&panoid=NmEtEFZiwWrlyUcnqLpLCw&cbp=12,136.28434626884751,,0,2.3679245283018866

Note that there is an existing bus stop in front of the "mall." There are already many SEPTA bus stops along MacDade Boulevard, so having the buses that serve MacDade Mall stop on the street instead of in the parking lot is really not such a big deal.

Here is a picture from the South Avenue side:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=macdade+mall&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=46.946584,93.164063&ie=UTF8&z=13&iwloc=A&layer=c&cbll=39.899378,-75.300814&panoid=dZudRFHSg61qkaNWthPmQg&cbp=12,270.4474594233442,,0,8.141509433962266

Bus riders who exit the bus on South Avenue have to walk perhaps thirty yards to get to the "mall." Most of the people who go to larger area malls tomorrow for Black Friday shopping will have to walk substantially further to get from their parking space to the mall entrance.

I just don't see this change as a big deal.

I just don't see this change as a big deal.

PC Warriors don't need a "big deal" to cry out for a Crusade against the big bad Swine.

If you ever do ride one, a good portion of your fellow passengers will be carrying shopping bags. Guess why? Because they have money, they go shopping,

+100

I've been in many buses and they are loaded with people carrying thousands of dollars worth of purchases. I wouldn't worry about the future because once gas becomes an issue in 3 years, those malls will be begging for those buses to come back. It's incredible how in the middle of the shopping season with a recession in progress, these malls are not afraid of losing millions of dollar from transit users.

Here in New Jersey, some of the most successful malls have 7 - 10 different buse lines coming from all over town including other states! Only the poorest malls have one bus line.

Sorry, but this is absurd. I suspect that you haven't ridden on many buses, based on your misperception that most bus passengers are bums who don't have money.

If you ever do ride one, a good portion of your fellow passengers will be carrying shopping bags. Guess why? Because they have money, they go shopping, they use the bus to take them shopping. The largest number of bus trips are for commuting (to make money) and for shopping (to spend it). If the malls haven't noticed this fact, it helps to explain why they're rapidly disappearing.

My point, exactly. It probably is a misrepresentation. But it's the misrepresentation that the shop owners see. People in cars are (supposedly) better customers.

An excellent example to this is a section of Richmond called The Fan. It's the hip, liberal, trendy shopping district. Very close to Virginia Commonwealth University, the 800 pound gorilla in the city. Lots of bikes around, lots of fixies, scooters (more Vespas then Chinese). It consists of a twelve (I think) block length of Cary Street. Which despite being only two lanes wide and absolutely jammed on Saturdays, has curbside parking on both sides of the street, and maybe three bus stops in it's entire length.

The city of Richmond's rich residential district is about a mile away - and the place is set up to be jammed with cars. And under no condition will any merchant entertain the idea of getting rid of the on street parking to up the street to three or four less cramped lanes, or more pedestrian walking room, or a bike lane, or . . . . . .

Now this is the condition in a hip, politically liberal area, somewhere where you'd expect at least lip service to environmental correctness, transportation alternatives, etc. And it ain't happening. And there's very little bus service to bring in the, er, shall we say 'city' (as opposed to 'hip urban') crowd.

Here in New Jersey, some of the most successful malls have 7 - 10 different buse lines coming from all over town including other states!
Perhaps you noticed that the malls you referenced and the busline and its passengers are not in North Jersey. Maybe you are aware that mall locations, mall store lineup, store customers, public transportation user populations, and area economics/population metrics of other areas may not match your version of reality. Maybe you should take a bus or train to other areas and look around a bit.

Perhaps you noticed that the malls you referenced and the busline and its passengers are not in North Jersey. Maybe you are aware that mall locations, mall store lineup, store customers, public transportation user populations, and area economics/population metrics of other areas may not match your version of reality. Maybe you should take a bus or train to other areas and look around a bit.

I'm not sure I know what you're talking about? The largest malls in New Jersey are located in the northern area and they attract buses from New York State, Pensylvania and New York City. In fact, there are bus lines from Newark and other poor areas going to those stores. I don't even know all the private bus lines making stops at these mall but regardless of the mall store lineup and area economics, the stores profit immensly from the diverse populations brought to the store by public transit.

I took a look at the Mall of America, the largest in the country and counted over 15 bus lines. I'm certain there are numerous teenagers using these buses but the mall resolved the situation by restricting them to 6:00 pm during the weekends. Simple. However, they understand that millions of dollars are lost by restricting bus transport.

Here's a brief sample:

1. Express Bus 80 from Downtown Minn.
2. Bus 54 from Downtown St. Paul
3. Route 55 Hiawatha Line - Lightrail
4. Route 5
5. Route 415
6. Route 415
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I took a look at the Mall of America, the largest in the country and counted over 15 bus lines. I'm certain there are numerous teenagers using these buses but the mall resolved the situation by restricting them to 6:00 pm during the weekends. Simple. However, they understand that millions of dollars are lost by restricting bus transport.


You've got to be joking by bringing up the Mall of America and comparing it to virtual strip mall in S.W.Phila area. M of A gets visitors from around the world with buckets of cash.

I took a look at the Mall of America, the largest in the country and counted over 15 bus lines.

:rolleyes:

How many bus lines service your neighborhood grocery store? The MacDade "Mall" consists of four stores. That's it. It is not the Mall of America. We don't need 15 bus lines bringing people from all over the country to our supermarket.

Thanks for that revelation, Platy. Right you are! NON-SPENDING MUST BE STOPPED!

If non-spending can't be stopped through attacks on the self-esteem of non-spending citizens, then we might have to revert to government forced-spending (ie taxation).

You own a shop in a mall. You basically pay every day for each square foot of floor space to sell your stuff. Your lease goes to paying the electricity for lighting (so you and your customers can see your stuff) and for running the registers (so you can actually sell your stuff). It also pays for running water in your employee bathroom in the back so you don't have to run a quarter mile down to the food court to pee. You pay just enough people to come run the store, keeping it looking nice, organizing and displaying stock, and helping customers while you do the dull drudgery of maintaining the finances, ordering new stock, accounting for every little trinket that gets sold (or stolen), and keeping your few employees happy.

Basically, every single day costs you money. Hopefully, as long as customers keep buying things, you can make enough to feed your family.

But then, you have days where nobody comes in to actually do any shopping. It happens every weekend, and the only thing different on the weekends is the sheer volume of teens running around with nothing better to do. All the paying customers that you see on the weekdays don't want to come. You'd like to just close, but you're still paying bills even if you're locked up.

So, now you're spending money to stay open for seven days a week, but you're losing money for three of those days. Three more days are profitable enough to mostly take up the slack, but the net profit so far for those six days is still close to zero. You have one day left where you're actually making a bit of money. Just one day. That's it.

... Is it starting to make sense now? Can you see why store owners hate it when nobody spends money?

But then, you have days where nobody comes in to actually do any shopping. It happens every weekend, and the only thing different on the weekends is the sheer volume of teens running around with nothing better to do. All the paying customers that you see on the weekdays don't want to come. You'd like to just close, but you're still paying bills even if you're locked up.

You're forgetting one detail - you don't HAVE the option of closing on those days that you know you won't make any money due to the teens.

At one time in my life, I temped for a major mall developer. You should see the lease contract that has to be signed to get a space in a mall. There are mandatory limits to your hours per day (minimum and maximum), days you will be open (aka, every day the mall is open - period - usually 360 per year), how your store will be lit, limitations on homemade signs in the windows, degree of cleanliness, etc. Close on a day you're not allowed to, and there's steep fines added to your monthly rent.

So you can't even avoid losing money that day.

Thanks for that revelation, Platy. Right you are! NON-SPENDING MUST BE STOPPED!

If non-spending can't be stopped through attacks on the self-esteem of non-spending citizens, then we might have to revert to government forced-spending (ie taxation).

It's painfully obvious that you have never put your own money into the running of a business. Try it - you'll drop the above attitude very quickly.

You're forgetting one detail - you don't HAVE the option of closing on those days that you know you won't make any money due to the teens.

At one time in my life, I temped for a major mall developer. You should see the lease contract that has to be signed to get a space in a mall. There are mandatory limits to your hours per day (minimum and maximum), days you will be open (aka, every day the mall is open - period - usually 360 per year), how your store will be lit, limitations on homemade signs in the windows, degree of cleanliness, etc. Close on a day you're not allowed to, and there's steep fines added to your monthly rent.

So you can't even avoid losing money that day.

Seriously, Sykerocker. Would a store be allowed to use the Mosquito device that I linked to in post 12? If your store became known among adults as a haven from a sea of obnoxious teens, you'd get a steady stream of adults. Even if they weren't shopping for your product to begin with they might make a purchase out of gratitude.

http://www.kidsbegone.com/

I once had a computer that made a noise that only the young interns could hear. They didn't like coming into my office.

On the other hand, adults may not want to run the gauntlet of incessant texting, pants sagging, and squeeling just to get to your teen-free store. Plus you would have to hire adults who couldn't jerk around on working conditions.

Well, it looks like the the malls are doing great business so why worry. This was
in the New York Times:

"A Wal-Mart employee in suburban New York died after being trampled by a crush of shoppers who tore down the front doors and thronged into the store early Friday morning, turning the annual rite of post-Thanksgiving bargain hunting into a frenzy."

"The 34-year-old employee, who was not identified, was knocked down by a crowd that broke down the doors of the Wal-Mart at the Green Acres Mall in Valley Stream, N.Y., and surged into the store. He was pronounced dead at a nearby hospital at 6 a.m."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/business/29walmart.html

The good thing for WalMart is that the guy was working for a temp agency so they probably won't get hit on their employee health insurance costs.

Having almost divested ourselves of our last retail endeavor I can promise you the LAST place I would want a store is in a mall. The overhead is high and it doesn't take much for people to not want to shop at a general location like a mall. Most mall sales depend on traffic in and out, as well as exclusivity and proximity. People don't want to shop if there is a hoard of teens around, and some of us don't want to shop if there is a hoard of people around period. YMMV. I would much rather head to a small private owner specialty store over a chain store any day, but unfortunately I am apparently in the minority and in most areas of the country the small store owners are unable to compete effectively against larger bulk buying stores, which is sad because small businesses (under 150 workers) is what employs a large segment of the population.

Aaron:)

You own a shop in a mall. You basically pay every day for each square foot of floor space to sell your stuff. Your lease goes to paying the electricity for lighting (so you and your customers can see your stuff) and for running the registers (so you can actually sell your stuff). It also pays for running water in your employee bathroom in the back so you don't have to run a quarter mile down to the food court to pee. You pay just enough people to come run the store, keeping it looking nice, organizing and displaying stock, and helping customers while you do the dull drudgery of maintaining the finances, ordering new stock, accounting for every little trinket that gets sold (or stolen), and keeping your few employees happy.

Basically, every single day costs you money. Hopefully, as long as customers keep buying things, you can make enough to feed your family.

But then, you have days where nobody comes in to actually do any shopping. It happens every weekend, and the only thing different on the weekends is the sheer volume of teens running around with nothing better to do. All the paying customers that you see on the weekdays don't want to come. You'd like to just close, but you're still paying bills even if you're locked up.

So, now you're spending money to stay open for seven days a week, but you're losing money for three of those days. Three more days are profitable enough to mostly take up the slack, but the net profit so far for those six days is still close to zero. You have one day left where you're actually making a bit of money. Just one day. That's it.

... Is it starting to make sense now? Can you see why store owners hate it when nobody spends money?

I may be missing something, but I don't see the relevance.

Nobody's saying that it's easy to be a retailer. Nobody's saying that retailers don't have a right to restrict non-customers. But restricting the whole mall--which is a public space, even though it's on private property--is another matter. People who don't drive cars should have basic rights to access malls. Malls which accept public services have some responsibility to serve all legitimate sectors of the public--including sectors that arrive on buses or bikes.

I may be missing something, but I don't see the relevance.

Nobody's saying that it's easy to be a retailer. Nobody's saying that retailers don't have a right to restrict non-customers. But restricting the whole mall--which is a public space, even though it's on private property--is another matter. People who don't drive cars should have basic rights to access malls. Malls which accept public services have some responsibility to serve all legitimate sectors of the public--including sectors that arrive on buses or bikes.

Who is being "restricted" by mall management from shopping at the mall? Since when are bus passengers "entitled" to door to door service to wherever they feel like going? So they have to walk a little more, BFD. Your crocodile tears over a non PC issue won't hold water.

Who is being "restricted" by mall management from shopping at the mall? Since when are bus passengers "entitled" to door to door service to wherever they feel like going? So they have to walk a little more, BFD. Your crocodile tears over a non PC issue won't hold water.

Hey, we're having a good conversation here, so quit bringing up reality. :twitchy:

Actually, as I understand it, what happened is that the buses quit dropping people off near the mall entrance. Instead, people sre now being dumped on a busy street that's presumably many yards across a parking lot from the entrance.

This might be OK for some passengers, but it could be an insurmountable obstacle for the elderly and the handicapped. Especially in the dark (crime and traffic hazards) and in the winter (those huge snow piles on the edge of parking lots).

You know, when I think about designing for people, I think about all the peope--not just the fortunate ones. You, on the other hand, would put the handicap spaces on the other side of a 10 lane freeway. :p



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