facial
12-05-08, 12:18 PM
GM should pay for its environmental-political crimes, and cease to exist.
However, make no mistake - I still love Saturns.
However, make no mistake - I still love Saturns.
Living Car Free - Should we bailout GM?
Bikeforums.net is a forum about nothing but bikes. Our community can help you find information about hard-to-find and localized information like bicycle tours, specialties like where in your area to have your recumbent bike serviced, or what are the best bicycle tires and seats for the activities you use your bike for.Roody
12-05-08, 12:41 PM
Buying the stock, or controlling interest would only be buying those shares from individuals. No way would it actually put working capital into the hands of those companies. It would do nothing to save them from financial ruin.
Yeah, the companies would have to issue new stock. This would in effect nationalize the companies, as the government would be a partial owner. I think the government will get it's money backer if it makes it a loan rather than a stock purchase. But it is a big risk either way. The government might never get the money back, or it might even make a profit as in the Chrysler and NYC bailouts.
Yeah, the companies would have to issue new stock. This would in effect nationalize the companies, as the government would be a partial owner. I think the government will get it's money backer if it makes it a loan rather than a stock purchase. But it is a big risk either way. The government might never get the money back, or it might even make a profit as in the Chrysler and NYC bailouts.
sykerocker
12-05-08, 02:37 PM
GM should pay for its environmental-political crimes, and cease to exist.
:rolleyes: That's right, don't build what will sell - build only what's environmentally correct. I guess step two is to force the market to pay for them? :rolleyes:
:rolleyes: That's right, don't build what will sell - build only what's environmentally correct. I guess step two is to force the market to pay for them? :rolleyes:
z415
12-05-08, 02:55 PM
Yeah, the companies would have to issue new stock. This would in effect nationalize the companies, as the government would be a partial owner. I think the government will get it's money backer if it makes it a loan rather than a stock purchase. But it is a big risk either way. The government might never get the money back, or it might even make a profit as in the Chrysler and NYC bailouts.
I say bond issuance would be better. It pretty much as a pass/fail clause written right into it if you compare it to stocks.
I say bond issuance would be better. It pretty much as a pass/fail clause written right into it if you compare it to stocks.
z415
12-05-08, 03:01 PM
GM should pay for its environmental-political crimes, and cease to exist.
The government subsidizes plenty of industries that have environmental criminals. We would want Washington to be a giant hypocrite would we?
The government subsidizes plenty of industries that have environmental criminals. We would want Washington to be a giant hypocrite would we?
LSPlo
12-05-08, 03:40 PM
Well, I watched the hearings today and yesterday (that's what you do when you're one of the 6.7% of unemployed Americans ;)) and I can see both sides of the argument.
The one thing that kind of bothered me is that a lot of people seem to think that we should just make the company more effective and eventually sales will return to normal and everybody will be happy. I think I only heard it suggested twice that the companies start thinking about producing buses and maybe train cars if a sort of broader transportation revolution occurs.
I got the idea that a lot of people thought, "Well, if we can go back to selling tons of cars again it will be a big help." Almost everybody is pushing for more fuel efficiency, but why can't we focus on making a profit while selling fewer cars? A lot of people are bashing the Big 3 for not seeing the future and selling fuel-efficient cars, but nobody seems to be seeing the future now. Shouldn't the future be more public transportation and fewer cars?
It just disappoints me that people see cars as such a disposable item that should be replaced every couple of years. How is it a bad thing if people aren't buying new cars that they obviously don't need? I'm all for increased fuel efficiency, but how many more MPG would the typical car need to get to make up for the environmental cost of producing a new car in the first place?
It may seem like I'm getting away from the bailout topic, but I get the feeling that the government would like to step in and have a lot of say in the future of the automobile industry, and if they're going to give away taxpayer money I can't say that they don't necessarily have the right. (Should they give taxpayer money in the first place? That's a different question.) If they do step in I think they should sort of heed their own advice, look towards the future, and realize that maybe it isn't the best thing for everybody for the companies to pump out so many cars each year.
The one thing that kind of bothered me is that a lot of people seem to think that we should just make the company more effective and eventually sales will return to normal and everybody will be happy. I think I only heard it suggested twice that the companies start thinking about producing buses and maybe train cars if a sort of broader transportation revolution occurs.
I got the idea that a lot of people thought, "Well, if we can go back to selling tons of cars again it will be a big help." Almost everybody is pushing for more fuel efficiency, but why can't we focus on making a profit while selling fewer cars? A lot of people are bashing the Big 3 for not seeing the future and selling fuel-efficient cars, but nobody seems to be seeing the future now. Shouldn't the future be more public transportation and fewer cars?
It just disappoints me that people see cars as such a disposable item that should be replaced every couple of years. How is it a bad thing if people aren't buying new cars that they obviously don't need? I'm all for increased fuel efficiency, but how many more MPG would the typical car need to get to make up for the environmental cost of producing a new car in the first place?
It may seem like I'm getting away from the bailout topic, but I get the feeling that the government would like to step in and have a lot of say in the future of the automobile industry, and if they're going to give away taxpayer money I can't say that they don't necessarily have the right. (Should they give taxpayer money in the first place? That's a different question.) If they do step in I think they should sort of heed their own advice, look towards the future, and realize that maybe it isn't the best thing for everybody for the companies to pump out so many cars each year.
mtlbob
12-05-08, 05:29 PM
I was just wondering... Yes, we could bailout the Big 3 and then some others too.
But all this approach is that the ECONOMY has to get going again!
Already, we, the humans are consuming Earth's resources at a faster rate than they are being replenished. We are consuming the interests AND the capital.
So, on with consumption to the brink (and over)!
We have to find a way to be happy living together and to have sustainable development.
The consumer society is not solution.
But all this approach is that the ECONOMY has to get going again!
Already, we, the humans are consuming Earth's resources at a faster rate than they are being replenished. We are consuming the interests AND the capital.
So, on with consumption to the brink (and over)!
We have to find a way to be happy living together and to have sustainable development.
The consumer society is not solution.
wernmax
12-05-08, 05:44 PM
We've been good dirty socialists since 1933.
Since few of us masses understand what makes a piece of paper with ink on it valuable, we should, of course. want everyone and everything bailed out, reliquified, made solvent, capitalized, invigorated, and made whole with unending mountains of new printed currency....on the theory that the more of it there is, the better the chance I will get some.
Why should Zimbabwe have all the fun? I too, want to be a Billionaire. :lol:
Since few of us masses understand what makes a piece of paper with ink on it valuable, we should, of course. want everyone and everything bailed out, reliquified, made solvent, capitalized, invigorated, and made whole with unending mountains of new printed currency....on the theory that the more of it there is, the better the chance I will get some.
Why should Zimbabwe have all the fun? I too, want to be a Billionaire. :lol:
z415
12-07-08, 10:28 AM
Zimbabwe, last I heard, had 100,167% inflation per annum as of the beginning of this year.
EDIT: A chilling update from reading the latest of Forbes - Dr. Hanke of Johns Hopkins (economist) calculated data for Zimbabwe (they stop letting numbers get out) to be that prices double every 24.7 hrs there, with 98% daily inflation that peaked at 80Bn% for the month of October.
Also, Dr. Krugman says the auto industry will fail (http://www.cnbc.com/id/28097151), bailout or not.
EDIT: A chilling update from reading the latest of Forbes - Dr. Hanke of Johns Hopkins (economist) calculated data for Zimbabwe (they stop letting numbers get out) to be that prices double every 24.7 hrs there, with 98% daily inflation that peaked at 80Bn% for the month of October.
Also, Dr. Krugman says the auto industry will fail (http://www.cnbc.com/id/28097151), bailout or not.
Smallwheels
12-10-08, 03:44 PM
I've decided to change my mind on this topic and let the government lend money to the car companies so long as they use the money they wasted on the banks. Anything that keeps money out of the criminal hands of the big banks is good. At least the car companies actually create a tangible product.
mike
12-12-08, 01:00 AM
I've decided to change my mind on this topic and let the government lend money to the car companies so long as they use the money they wasted on the banks. Anything that keeps money out of the criminal hands of the big banks is good. At least the car companies actually create a tangible product.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing: As long as the government takes from the wasted money alloted to Wall Street, I might go for it.
It is like seeing a bum eat out of the garbage. It isn't a pretty sight, but it is better than letting it go competely to waste.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing: As long as the government takes from the wasted money alloted to Wall Street, I might go for it.
It is like seeing a bum eat out of the garbage. It isn't a pretty sight, but it is better than letting it go competely to waste.
z415
12-12-08, 01:31 AM
Bailout failed in the Senate last night even though Republicans whipped up a more stringent proposal. They were slacking off - were supposed to reconvene at 3PM, but quorum wasn't reached way past that...
Ans what do you mean use the money they wasted on banks? Do you mean the TARP fund?
Ans what do you mean use the money they wasted on banks? Do you mean the TARP fund?
Silverexpress
12-12-08, 10:04 AM
This however...will be the weakened pillar that will more than likely bring this company down...
Loan or no Loan...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GM may lose 40 percent of showrooms if GMAC defaults, dealer group official says
Greg Bensinger Bloomberg News
December 11, 2008 12:00 PM
DETROIT -- General Motors Corp. may lose as many as 40 percent of its 6,500 U.S. dealerships should lender GMAC LLC default, a key retailer for the automaker said.
"There's so many dealers on the edge, if GMAC goes out of business 30 to 40 percent of dealers won't be able to get financing from anywhere else," Martin NeSmith, a liaison to GMAC as member of GM's National Dealer Council, said in an interview. "They'll go out of business."
Dealers face a double threat as GMAC and GM teeter toward insolvency. GMAC said Wednesday that it lacks the funding it needs to become a bank holding company and free up more money for dealer-inventory financing, called floorplan. GM, which owns 49 percent of GMAC, said it may run out of cash this month without at least $4 billion in federal loans ensared in a U.S. Senate debate.
"The likelihood of getting floorplan from anyone else is very much in doubt," said NeSmith, a Claxton, Ga.-based retailer of Chevrolets, Buicks, Pontiacs and GMC trucks. Dealers are scared to death.
The lending unit is GM dealers' largest source of financing for buying vehicles, accounting for about 75 percent of U.S. inventory. For consumers tighter GMAC loan rules eliminated about 40 percent of potential buyers, helping drag GM sales to a 22 percent drop this year that exceeded the 16 percent industrywide decline.
Gina Proia, a spokeswoman for the lender, declined to comment on the repercussions of a default.
"We are focused on the bond offering, which is still ongoing," she said.
GMAC said it's plan for a $38 billion debt exchange to raise capital to convert to a bank holding company hasn't attracted enough participation, leaving it short of the $30 billion in capital required by the Federal Reserve for bank conversion.
The lender is asking debtholders for the exchange as part of its effort to gain bank status for access to the Troubled Asset Relief Program. GM sold a 51 percent stake in GMAC to a group led by Cerberus Capital Management LP in 2006.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Loan or no Loan...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GM may lose 40 percent of showrooms if GMAC defaults, dealer group official says
Greg Bensinger Bloomberg News
December 11, 2008 12:00 PM
DETROIT -- General Motors Corp. may lose as many as 40 percent of its 6,500 U.S. dealerships should lender GMAC LLC default, a key retailer for the automaker said.
"There's so many dealers on the edge, if GMAC goes out of business 30 to 40 percent of dealers won't be able to get financing from anywhere else," Martin NeSmith, a liaison to GMAC as member of GM's National Dealer Council, said in an interview. "They'll go out of business."
Dealers face a double threat as GMAC and GM teeter toward insolvency. GMAC said Wednesday that it lacks the funding it needs to become a bank holding company and free up more money for dealer-inventory financing, called floorplan. GM, which owns 49 percent of GMAC, said it may run out of cash this month without at least $4 billion in federal loans ensared in a U.S. Senate debate.
"The likelihood of getting floorplan from anyone else is very much in doubt," said NeSmith, a Claxton, Ga.-based retailer of Chevrolets, Buicks, Pontiacs and GMC trucks. Dealers are scared to death.
The lending unit is GM dealers' largest source of financing for buying vehicles, accounting for about 75 percent of U.S. inventory. For consumers tighter GMAC loan rules eliminated about 40 percent of potential buyers, helping drag GM sales to a 22 percent drop this year that exceeded the 16 percent industrywide decline.
Gina Proia, a spokeswoman for the lender, declined to comment on the repercussions of a default.
"We are focused on the bond offering, which is still ongoing," she said.
GMAC said it's plan for a $38 billion debt exchange to raise capital to convert to a bank holding company hasn't attracted enough participation, leaving it short of the $30 billion in capital required by the Federal Reserve for bank conversion.
The lender is asking debtholders for the exchange as part of its effort to gain bank status for access to the Troubled Asset Relief Program. GM sold a 51 percent stake in GMAC to a group led by Cerberus Capital Management LP in 2006.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Silverexpress
12-12-08, 10:08 AM
Along with this salvo...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The collapse of emergency aid to Detroit's struggling Big Three automakers could prompt suppliers to cut off deliveries and start demanding cash payments up front from the strapped carmakers, according to the president of the United Auto Workers.
Ron Gettelfinger said he talked to General Motors Corp. CEO Rick Wagoner and Chrysler LLC President Tom Lasorda this morning, and that their biggest concern is whether suppliers will stop delivering parts or require payment upon delivery or in advance if they think federal aid is not coming.
"We need to satisfy the suppliers that there is going to be a tomorrow," Gettelfinger said. "If suppliers believe they can't operate, what are they going to do? They aren't going to deliver the goods."
Gettelfinger charged at a mid-morning press conference that the wage issue being cited by Senate Republicans in scuttling an emergency auto bailout was "largely about politics within the GOP caucus."
He said the union was being held to a "double standard" because Republicans didn't ask other stakeholders in the auto industry for similar concessions, though one amendment called on GM bondholders to take a major cut. "The other parties weren't there," Gettelfinger said during a news conference at Solidarity House.
Gettelfinger said he wondered at one point during Thursday's intense negotiation whether the union was being set up and forced to shoulder the entire burden of the auto industry's draconian restructuring.
Still, Gettelfinger said, "we were prepared to make further concessions."
Saying the entire auto industry was in peril, Gettelfinger called on both Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and the Federal Reserve to act to prevent the "imminent collapse of the automakers" after an emergency loan deal back by both the White House and the House of Representatives disintegrated Thursday night in the Senate.
Gettelfinger said that the union appreciates "the positive statement released by the White House" today still seeking to find help for Detroit's embattled Big Three automakers, which could involve tapping some of the $700 billion in money already approved to shore up the country's ailing financial institutions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No parts + No sellers + No Buyers + No Money = No GM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The collapse of emergency aid to Detroit's struggling Big Three automakers could prompt suppliers to cut off deliveries and start demanding cash payments up front from the strapped carmakers, according to the president of the United Auto Workers.
Ron Gettelfinger said he talked to General Motors Corp. CEO Rick Wagoner and Chrysler LLC President Tom Lasorda this morning, and that their biggest concern is whether suppliers will stop delivering parts or require payment upon delivery or in advance if they think federal aid is not coming.
"We need to satisfy the suppliers that there is going to be a tomorrow," Gettelfinger said. "If suppliers believe they can't operate, what are they going to do? They aren't going to deliver the goods."
Gettelfinger charged at a mid-morning press conference that the wage issue being cited by Senate Republicans in scuttling an emergency auto bailout was "largely about politics within the GOP caucus."
He said the union was being held to a "double standard" because Republicans didn't ask other stakeholders in the auto industry for similar concessions, though one amendment called on GM bondholders to take a major cut. "The other parties weren't there," Gettelfinger said during a news conference at Solidarity House.
Gettelfinger said he wondered at one point during Thursday's intense negotiation whether the union was being set up and forced to shoulder the entire burden of the auto industry's draconian restructuring.
Still, Gettelfinger said, "we were prepared to make further concessions."
Saying the entire auto industry was in peril, Gettelfinger called on both Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and the Federal Reserve to act to prevent the "imminent collapse of the automakers" after an emergency loan deal back by both the White House and the House of Representatives disintegrated Thursday night in the Senate.
Gettelfinger said that the union appreciates "the positive statement released by the White House" today still seeking to find help for Detroit's embattled Big Three automakers, which could involve tapping some of the $700 billion in money already approved to shore up the country's ailing financial institutions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No parts + No sellers + No Buyers + No Money = No GM
Silverexpress
12-12-08, 10:15 AM
Michiganians mad at bailout collapse
Jeff Karoub Associated Press
December 12, 2008 12:00 PM
DETROIT -- Many in Michigan reacted Friday with disappointment and outright disgust to news that a $14 billion emergency bailout for Detroit's automakers collapsed late the night before in the U.S. Senate.
Lawmakers and union leaders seized on the foul mood.
Republican U.S. Rep. Thaddeus McCotter said in a statement that "no one can reason with unreasonable people." He urged President George W. Bush to tap into the $700 billion Wall Street bailout to rescue the ailing auto industry.
Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm said in a statement that GOP senators delivered a "fierce slap" at 3 million workers across America and called it "a shameful day."
"Their no vote is an astounding blow," she said. "They have chosen to ignore the livelihood of 3 million Americans, 3 million families, and in the process have chosen to drive the American manufacturing industry -- and perhaps the American economy -- into the ground."
The bill failed after talks broke down over the refusal of the United Auto Workers to meet Republican demands for aggressive wage reductions.
The Senate rejected the bailout 52-35 on a procedural vote after the talks fell apart.
General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC have said they could run out of cash within weeks. Ford Motor Co. has said it does not need federal help now, but could face collateral damage if one of its domestic rivals fell.
UAW President Ron Gettelfinger, speaking Friday morning on WJR-AM's "The Paul W. Smith Show," said the action wasn't anti-union, but "anti-Big Three."
"They rejected the legislation and restructuring process that had been agreed to by the White House. ... This is what just blows my mind," he said.
Jeff Karoub Associated Press
December 12, 2008 12:00 PM
DETROIT -- Many in Michigan reacted Friday with disappointment and outright disgust to news that a $14 billion emergency bailout for Detroit's automakers collapsed late the night before in the U.S. Senate.
Lawmakers and union leaders seized on the foul mood.
Republican U.S. Rep. Thaddeus McCotter said in a statement that "no one can reason with unreasonable people." He urged President George W. Bush to tap into the $700 billion Wall Street bailout to rescue the ailing auto industry.
Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm said in a statement that GOP senators delivered a "fierce slap" at 3 million workers across America and called it "a shameful day."
"Their no vote is an astounding blow," she said. "They have chosen to ignore the livelihood of 3 million Americans, 3 million families, and in the process have chosen to drive the American manufacturing industry -- and perhaps the American economy -- into the ground."
The bill failed after talks broke down over the refusal of the United Auto Workers to meet Republican demands for aggressive wage reductions.
The Senate rejected the bailout 52-35 on a procedural vote after the talks fell apart.
General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC have said they could run out of cash within weeks. Ford Motor Co. has said it does not need federal help now, but could face collateral damage if one of its domestic rivals fell.
UAW President Ron Gettelfinger, speaking Friday morning on WJR-AM's "The Paul W. Smith Show," said the action wasn't anti-union, but "anti-Big Three."
"They rejected the legislation and restructuring process that had been agreed to by the White House. ... This is what just blows my mind," he said.
wahoonc
12-12-08, 10:30 AM
Tom Whipple (http://fcnp.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3860:the-peak-oil-crisis-the-great-december-bailout&catid=17:national-commentary&Itemid=79), as usual has a excellent review.
Aaron:)
Aaron:)
Silverexpress
12-12-08, 10:39 AM
After reading Mr. Whipples point of view, I think the next thread should be titled...
"Should we Bail Out Uncle Sam?"
The US government is fighting too many wars on too many fronts, and it may soon be distracted by civil unrest.
"Should we Bail Out Uncle Sam?"
The US government is fighting too many wars on too many fronts, and it may soon be distracted by civil unrest.
merlinextraligh
12-12-08, 11:30 AM
SUVs are often used in marketing classes as an example of a product for which a market did not exist until it was created by Congressionally mandated Coporate Average Fuel Economy Standards (from which large trucks are exempt).
fixed that for you
fixed that for you
TRaffic Jammer
12-12-08, 11:35 AM
I remember that .... when wagons became a big no to marketers, and soccer moms were encouraged to buy a Jimmy or a Blazer. These, previously to the 70's energy crisis, were off road 4x4's, made for work and play. They never went anywhere near the speed limit on the highway as they were sketchy as all hell at speed, but awesome in gumbo mud.
Well.... they have indeed been making their bed of profits over everything, welcome to pure unadulterated capitalism.
Oh NOW you want some socialism now that it's not a piece of cake to make money hand over fist.
Well.... they have indeed been making their bed of profits over everything, welcome to pure unadulterated capitalism.
Oh NOW you want some socialism now that it's not a piece of cake to make money hand over fist.
rnorris
12-12-08, 12:29 PM
Isn't that the truth... the first Chevy Suburban we had at work was almost undriveable by anyone but 6' tall folks and you could use the clutch pedal as a bench press, it was so stiff. I couldn't drive it without a fat phone book behind my butt. Blink while driving it on the freeway and you'd be in another lane. The new ones are so cushy and quiet, I have to remind myself that I'm still driving a pig. The one good point in its favor is it's roomy enough that I can take my bike with me for rides after work when I'm on the road.
TRaffic Jammer
12-12-08, 01:25 PM
bring back the BEASTLY 4x4, and make fuel efficient crossover/wagon/van thingies for families. Get thee to hydrogen.
I wonder what we'd be doing if the past thirty years had been spent on new fuel/drive ideas.
The current re-do of classic muscle cars across the industry says to me..... 'Hey the Boomers are retiring, and they want a final NEW CAR.... a Camaro/Mustang(Bullit Edition) not unlike the one he drove when he was 20. Dodge Magnum/Nitros, ... yea we know where you thought the money was coming from.
Sorry but the Japanese car makers have been handing us our butts in development. Embrace the future, and it will pay off, play off the past and be left holding the bag.
I wonder what we'd be doing if the past thirty years had been spent on new fuel/drive ideas.
The current re-do of classic muscle cars across the industry says to me..... 'Hey the Boomers are retiring, and they want a final NEW CAR.... a Camaro/Mustang(Bullit Edition) not unlike the one he drove when he was 20. Dodge Magnum/Nitros, ... yea we know where you thought the money was coming from.
Sorry but the Japanese car makers have been handing us our butts in development. Embrace the future, and it will pay off, play off the past and be left holding the bag.
Silverexpress
12-12-08, 07:07 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/12/map.us.auto/index.html
wahoonc
12-13-08, 03:21 AM
After reading Mr. Whipples point of view, I think the next thread should be titled...
"Should we Bail Out Uncle Sam?"
The US government is fighting too many wars on too many fronts, and it may soon be distracted by civil unrest.
You don't believe that the US Government is headed for Bankruptcy? I do... (http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/)
Aaron:)
"Should we Bail Out Uncle Sam?"
The US government is fighting too many wars on too many fronts, and it may soon be distracted by civil unrest.
You don't believe that the US Government is headed for Bankruptcy? I do... (http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/)
Aaron:)
mike
12-13-08, 08:01 AM
General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC have said they could run out of cash within weeks. Ford Motor Co. has said it does not need federal help now, but could face collateral damage if one of its domestic rivals fell.
Ya, right. They are running out of cash in a few weeks, but you don't see the auto execs, who make tens of millions in salary and perks, volunteering to cut their pay to save their cash cows.
Instead, they accuse the government of "slapping workers in the face" for not handing over billions of dollars tax money generated by the sweat of hard-working taxpayers in other industries.
KMA, Detroit.
Ya, right. They are running out of cash in a few weeks, but you don't see the auto execs, who make tens of millions in salary and perks, volunteering to cut their pay to save their cash cows.
Instead, they accuse the government of "slapping workers in the face" for not handing over billions of dollars tax money generated by the sweat of hard-working taxpayers in other industries.
KMA, Detroit.
TRaffic Jammer
12-13-08, 08:40 AM
Maybe all the post-bailout execs should make an hourly wage, and bonuses based on actual company performance. A bonus paid out AFTER an exhaustive forensic accounting go-over by a third party, just to make sure. New salary structures for the executive class need to be put in place... too many of these big companies are WAAAAY too top heavy. I'd not let either the banking or auto industry have carte blanche with ANY tax payer money. They should have to be accountable for EVERY penny they get, and the lion's share of it goes to workers' and the line/creditors. Just like when an individual consolidates, the creditors get the money first, I'm not trusting the execs to pay the bills properly.