Foo - Deflowering an 18th century woman.

Is anybody here qualified to comment on the importance of virginity to 18th century women in regards to maintaining honor? If so, please do. I'm writing an essay on Johnathan Swift's "Dresing Room" and Aphra Behns "The Disappointment"

No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Select last night.

I think you should date girls closer to your own age.

I didn't do it.

Petticoats get in the way.

Petticoats get in the way.

you're not doing it right.

Is anybody here qualified to comment on the importance of virginity to 18th century women in regards to maintaining honor? If so, please do. I'm writing an essay on Johnathan Swift's "Dresing Room" and Aphra Behns "The Disappointment"

That's a rather broad question.

Any particular country? Class?

East Hill

I was a Marine Corps recruiter, and another recruiter in my unit got into trouble when he had phoney business cards printed up that listed jobs he was available for... one of them was deflowering virgins.

It was in the 1980's, so it doesn't really apply, but I felt compelled to share it. ;)

On a more serious note...

The questions that East Hill ask are extremely relevant. The question would not be answered the same for all 21st century women. Today, in some cultures/groups, it is seen as almost meaningless (something shared with the first boy that evokes enough emotion) and in others it is treasured so deeply that being the victim of a **** means that a woman will never be able to be married because she is not a virgin.

Some of the rules aren't even obvious.

A few movies I have seen in recent years come to mind if you want to see some cultural explorations...

As I recall "Memoirs of a Geisha" has some interesting views on aspects of the topic in a Japanese subculture... with a confusing set of "rules"

The movie "Osama" has the portrayal of expectations of women in Afghanistan under the Taliban. Including virginity as I recall.

The movie "Water" is a good movie about some widows of India that are unable to be married, because they were married before, and therefore not available for marriage again. However, not exclusively for the reason of being deflowered... The story follows women who were shunned by society because they were widows, and didn't have the decency to throw themselves on their husband's funeral fire. But, I think it could be watched as an interesting look at a cultural view of women who have slept with a man. This movie was protested by some Hindus in India, as not relevant today, but historically some hindus did think such things.


In the book "Chronicle of a Death Foretold" by Gabriel Garcia Marquez, the main plot revolves around the murder of a man suspected of defiling a young lady... he was accused, but it is never clear whether he was guilty... the implication was she accused the man to protect a man she loved.


Especially before the current century, in many male dominated societies (like the west), a woman's virginity and ability to bear children were seen as her two most worthy attributes.

But, enough rambling. ;)

you're not doing it right.

Maybe... I wasn't the one in petticoats.

I'd hit it.

you're not doing it right.Put it in her bustle?

For a female contemporary of Swift's view on maintaining honor read Laetitia Pilkington’s Memoirs.

For a female contemporary of Swift's view on maintaining honor read Laetitia Pilkington’s Memoirs.


A contemporary, yes. But does phantomcow want to know about an upper class Englishwoman, or lower down in the strata? Does he want to know about English practices, or another country?

East Hill

The obvious answer is that women at that time were expected to be virgins at time of marriage. If they were not, they would shame their family. It would also be harder for the family to marry off a woman if she were not a virgin. Ideally the family would want their daughter to marry above their station and having been “deflowered” would cause a problem with this.

What's the big deal about deflowering virgins? Virgins are overrated IMO. Virgins generally don't know much about things like latex, BJ's, exotic use of feathers, alternate uses for baby oil, double headed lollipops and all the other stuff I'm interested in.

:p

What's the big deal about deflowering virgins? Virgins are overrated IMO.

Yeah, but if you're really bad in the sack...virgins won't know the difference. :innocent:

How about upper or middle class English women?

A contemporary, yes. But does phantomcow want to know about an upper class Englishwoman, or lower down in the strata? Does he want to know about English practices, or another country?

East Hill

i agree he wasn't very specific......but if he is doing an essay on The Lady’s Dressing Room it would be a unique view of those particular times and that poem from a Anglo-Irish woman poet’s point of view....and one that knew all too well what dishonor meant then.

……..and an interesting female view into the sophisticated irony or misogynistic attitudes of some male poets/writers of then and there.

Yeah, but if you're really bad in the sack...virgins won't know the difference. :innocent:

They tend to catch on quickly.

This is one of those subjects that is awkward, and not because of sex.

Here is something I found...

"Actually, in this case, a major reason for the mutual respect between "heathen" and Christian was simply the timing of their encounter. Eighteenth-century England was no longer as prudish as it had once been under Puritan rule. (The Victorian 19th century is another matter.) The study of the Greek and Roman classics, various secular modern philosophies, and contact with distant foreign cultures had taught Europeans some religious and sexual tolerance. Indeed, reading reports like that by Captain Cook and meeting people like Omai led many of them to question their traditional moral assumptions and put them into a more liberal frame of mind. In France, Capitain Bougainville published his own account of a voyage to the Pacific, and the great encyclopedist Denis Diderot acclaimed the Polynesian sexual morality in his Supplement to Bougainville's Voyage (1796). Thus, gradually, the old rigid sexual attitudes softened in some Western countries. Moral values that had been accepted as absolute, began to be recognized as relative, and people began to criticize their inherited way of life. More and more of them decided to think for themselves and to pursue their own happiness in their own way. Resenting both church interference and government regulation, they demanded freedom from moral tutelage. The ideals of privacy and individual liberty won increasing support and, in the American and French revolutions, finally led to political and social reforms.


This is not to say that Western prudery was dead. Indeed, it was still very much alive in the middle and lower classes, and, as we have briefly mentioned, it regained a great deal of strength in the following century. Nevertheless, among the educated there remained an awareness of uninhibited non-Western sexual customs and, for that matter, of a certain pro-sexual Western tradition. After all, Augustine had never spoken for every one of his fellow Christians. Behind the official moral facade, there had also always been an older, native European sensuality. With the arrival of Christian asceticism, this sensuality had been disparaged, denied, and driven underground, but it had repeatedly surfaced in the Middle Ages at popular festivals, in Renaissance art and literature, in Baroque pomp and pageantry, in rural customs and urban fashions, in earthy folklore and aristocratic splendor, in theater, music, and dance. By the same token, in actual fact the sexual behavior of Westerners was never as joylessly disciplined as their official religious dogmas and secular laws might have suggested. Especially farmers and feudal lords had lived largely by their own, less repressive sexual standards. It was mostly the clergy, and in modern times the bourgeoisie, which insisted on temperance and austerity.


However, after the successful industrialization of the Western world, even the formerly straitlaced middle classes became more tolerant in sexual matters. As their material comfort increased, they realized that the political and economic freedom they had won was incomplete without sexual freedom. Thus, in this century, we have seen a growing trend of sexual liberalization. Drawing on the experiences of non-Western cultures and on Western libertarian traditions, a great many scholars, moralists, and ordinary citizens are today working for a new, humane world without sexual oppression.


For more than a century now, an important part of this work has been the scientific study of human sexual behavior and its social implications. By definition, sex research tends to promote a rational approach to sexual problems and thus combats sexual prejudice, ignorance, and fear. It is in this spirit that the following pages attempt to describe the current state of knowledge in various fields of study. Needless to say, it is not really possible, within the scope of the present book, to deal with all social issues related to sex, but one can gain at least some understanding of their complexity by making a few historical and cross-cultural observations. Therefore, this last part of the text offers a brief analysis of the modern fight for sexual equality, the problem of sexual deviance, recent changes in marriage and family patterns, the fate of the sexually oppressed, and the impact of the present so-called sexual revolution."
http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/ATLAS_EN/html/sex_and_society.html

The first stages of capitalism are very disruptive. People are forced out of rural life (one way or another) and find themselves trying to survive in a city
about which they know nothing.

There was no social safety net as we know it, and this resulted in mass prostitution. We make fun of the Victorians, but the women of that era were afraid. Prostitution was
common, and disease was a serious problem. They were afraid for their lives, and afraid that if the male died, they could wind up on the streets themselves.

You picked a time of transition, and that will complicate your search.

Btw, this may be more than your looking for. But it's the first
in an extraordinary series of books.
http://www.amazon.com/Civilization-Capitalism-15th-18th-Century-Vol/dp/0520081145/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227927065&sr=1-2

once a ***** always a *****! may the harlots be damned!

Yeah, but if you're really bad in the sack...virgins won't know the difference. :innocent:

Don't most guys think they're great in bed? :p

Don't most guys think they're great in bed? :p

I can't speak for all guys.

Guys don't discuss those things.

Thanks for the comments, all. In case you're all curious, my assignment is to write some paper which compares how the two authors play with the issues of gender, sexuality, subjectivity, masculinity, desire, and power.

Thanks for the comments, all. In case you're all curious, my assignment is to write some paper which compares how the two authors play with the issues of gender, sexuality, subjectivity, masculinity, desire, and power.

I thought I missed my undergrad years as an English major until I remembered writing essays like this. Do you enjoy it?

Don't most guys think they're great in bed? :p


Most guys think i am.

Most guys think i am.

:twitchy:

Most guys think i am.

oh SNAP!!!:eek:

Memoirs of a Geisha...ugh. Written by an old dude who isn't Japanese. Filmed w/ Chinese actors...bleh.

Thanks for the comments, all. In case you're all curious, my assignment is to write some paper which compares how the two authors play with the issues of gender, sexuality, subjectivity, masculinity, desire, and power.

Uh, if the assignment is to compare what two authors have to say about such issues, what the heck do you need to read besides works by the two authors? And if you do need to do additional research, doesn't your college have a library? And reference librarians? And don't you think that would be a better place to start than with a bunch of cyber-smartasses (me very much included) who have absolutely no accountability for any bad advice we give?

Just askin'.

There weren't any more or less flowered than they are today---they just didn't talk about it then.

Don't most guys think they're great in bed? :p

care to find out? :innocent:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/132/381788320_241ca4a35c.jpg

Don't most guys think most guys think they're great in bed? :p

fixed for this thread

No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Select last night.

she was 18 right?

so she said...

Am i the only one who was hoping this was another one of your science projects?

Am i the only one who was hoping this was another one of your science projects?

well, if he found an 18th century woman, I was gonna be impressed.

well, if he found an 18th century woman, I was gonna be impressed.

I think it would take liters of lubricant.

I think it would take liters of lubricant.

ehhhhh.....umm....errr... acclkkkkk!:twitchy:

ehhhhh.....umm....errr... acclkkkkk!:twitchy:

Mind you, it isn't something I'd attempt, nor would I recommend it.

Mind you, it isn't something I'd attempt, nor would I recommend it.

Taking baths was a luxury ... http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/sick009.gif

I think it would take liters of lubricant.

Don't doubt those old ladies.

nor would I recommend it.Sounds like a recommendation borne of experience.

An 18th century woman? I'd tap it.

What kind of class is this? I find it's interesting to study the social norms and ideologies around sex and conduct over a much larger time-frame. In Roman times worldwide, you can find paintings and sculpture depicting sexual acts as normal everyday events. This artwork is on the walls and in the home much like we have posters of celebrities or prints of famous paintings today. The unearthing of Pompei revealed how much "civilization" was depreciated with the plagues and dark-ages.

Don't doubt those old ladies.

Mrs. Z is an older lady - but nowhere near that old. :eek:


Sounds like a recommendation borne of experience.

No need to feel threatened. I leave the necrophilia to you. :p :D :innocent: