Framebuilders - Lugged Frame Building Tools

I would love to get into building lugged frames for fixed gear bikes. What would be the bare minimum of tools that I would need for this?

I currently own a MAPP gas torch for plumbing work. Will this be sufficient for brazing the lugs or do I need Oxy/Acetylene?

I am on a very tight budget and probably should use money for bills. If anyone could give me an idea on what tools I need and could get by without that would be great.

Thanks

I dunno about the torch, oxy/acy is easiest where I'm at, acetylene is not too expensive and from what i can tell all the builders here (in my town, portland oregon) use oxy/acy too. you can get a really nice deal if you look for used stuff. I recently seen a newer (year or two old)victor set up (bottles, cart, regs, hoses, torch handle and tips plus extras) for $200.

I plan on doing my first frame without a jig, using a full size drawing to compare the angles. a variety of hand tools are needed. aside from what you use as a torch, files and basic hand tools, a bike shop quality bike stand, a good vice, some tubing blocks made from rock maple, machinists tools such as a bevel protractor, vee-blocks, a height guage (i use a dial indicactor on a stand) and a surface plate ( I will be using a chunk of granite on a heavily reinforced table which i leveled and lapped. rather than using a frame jig, I will do each joint one at a time, starting with the down tube to head tube, and pinning them to help maintain alignment whilst i braze each one.

I believe some guys are using mapp, but i have never seen the work, If i didn't have oxy/acy set up already I think i'd look at oxy/propane cuz it's way cheaper than acetylene here.


good luck

Great Thanks white folks. I think I will just get an Oxy/Acetylene set up. I can get a brand new US Forge kit at work for $169 less the tanks. Has anyone used a US Forge torch kit? Are they worth a damn?

Also does anyone know the price on some Oxy/Acetylene tanks?

Would I need anything such as a bench grinder to get my tubes to butt correctly in the lugs? Or would I be able to just use hand tools to get the same effect?

Also what is the cheapest anyone has built a frame with all new tubes and lugs?

assuming you don't have a milling machine or metal lathe where hole saws would work, your best bet for mitering tubes is a hacksaw and files. People use grinders and belt sanders as well.

Thanks alot unterhausen.

I think I will just get a bench grinder on craigslist. I've already got a hacksaw as well.

What about facing the head tube and BB? What does that consist of? Would I be able to do that on my own, or does it require larger shop tools?

Grinder is used by some and is useful for many things, however for making miters you want files, hacksaw, and you need to download a tube mitering program. filing tubes goes very fast, you need some kind of vise to hold the tubes, hand work depends on having free hands to do it properly. Also aircraft snips are cheap, at HD, and they will make it possible to cut the majority of the metal away from the joint before you file. They work fine with standard tubing, some of the ubertubes may be too hard, I don't know on that.

Got to tinmantech, and look at the meco torch, not only is it the right size for this kind of lug work (though not the prefered model most use Smith etc...), but it will also allow you to weld tubing just like tig, even if you never weld a frame you will make a lot of stuff around the shop a lot easier if you can tack the odd fixture etc.... It's cheap, and if you need to save money you could look on craigs for tanks and regulators. Be aware that all this stuff is a major safety hazard, may not be covered under your home insurance if you burn the house down, so getting a better quality rig is a small investment in your future. This is also a reason I marginaly prefer propane/oxy, search threads on that.

You could theoretically face a head tube or BB with a file, not a biggie, but chasing the threads on the BB, or reaming the head tube is a whole other mater. You also need to ream the seat tube, there there are options, standard adjustible machinist's reamers do an ok job and oversized posts sleeved over inserts often don't distort, though that is not a likely solution for lugs. Tooling costs for frame building are high, and they really take the whole thing out of the cheap collumn, brace yourself, this is largely an expensive hobby. That is where this board excells a little, there are people who have done it on the cheaper end. If you have a good in at a bike shop they may do the frame prep free or cheaper, but it can also cost 50 bucks a proceedure. There are some shops where the owner also builds. Some want to help out, and others look at it as competition.

I've never faced a bb, depending on what you are doing you might get away with that. However, you need to chase the bb threads, maybe take it to a bike shop. I bought a Bicycle Research HT facing tool. I don't know if they still sell those, they probably aren't as cheap any more.

I've never reamed a seat tube, and the thought had not occurred to me.

Files are cheaper and safer (to both the tubes and you) than a grinder. Unless you are way better with a grinder than I am, you aren't going to be able to do a good job with it anyway.

Awesome thanks again guys.

So do you think I can get away without reaming the seat tube?

I'll probably just go the hacksaw and file route instead of getting a grinder.
Use the money on a few vices instead.

I would say no. But you might get lucky, it's the cheaper of the three basic tools and the only one there is a reasonable not bike version that will save you tons of money.

OK.

So, I'm thinking I will maybe get a non bike tool to ream out the seat tube.
I wish the Head Tube reamer and facer was not so much damn money.

I guess I'll just have to find someone around town or go to a bike shop in Boulder to see if I can get the head tube and BB done.

Any suggestions on where to buy good tubing?
Also what should I go with for a lugged track frame? 4130 cromoly?
Suggestions on Lugs would be appreciated as well?

Also what are the biggest differences in Oxy/Propane as to Oxy/Acetylene?
-will the gauges of one work with the other?


Thanks for all the help everyone. I've noticed a few threads that get pretty off topic and mean. I appreciate the fact that everyone is to the point and respectful.

The Home Depot MAPP gas torch is fine for silver brazing. Not so fine for brass. I like the one with the hose between the bottle and the torch.

I have a bench grinder and rarely use it. Hacksaw -- spend the money for good quality blades -- and a handful of files will do a perfect job, once you learn how to use them. I have not used any of the mitering programs. Cut-and-try has been fine for me.

I do not use a jig. I use full-size drawings and the pinning method of frame building. I did build a few simple jigs which are invaluable. I put up a bit of a tutorial which can be viewed in the BF archive (http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-351997.html).

I did not not spend the large amount of money required for facing and chasing tools. These chores are farmed out to the local bike shop. I don't see how the home builder who does not plan on building more than one or two frames a year can justify the cost of those tools.

I prefer Henry James (http://www.henryjames.com/productlug.html) for tubing and lugs. The lugs especially are very easy to use and require little to no prep and finish work. Standard diameter 4130 -- like True Temper "VERUS" -- is the easiest to work with, and a lot less expensive than the latest-greatest steels. (I'd strongly consider buying the Paterek manual from him before you do anything else -- it's a huge help, and will open your eyes re. the pitfalls and details of framebuilding.)

I generally figure about $200-$400 for tubing, lugs, dropouts, and the rest. Another $75 to have the LBS do the facing and chasing, and another $100 to the powdercoaters. IOW, more than the cheapest welded steel road/track frames cost, so if a rideable frame at minimal expense is your goal, you're looking in the wrong place. And, of course, that's not counting the initial investment for all the tools...

I think the free mitering program is worth the 30 seconds it takes to run a profile, particularly when cutting with files that aren't a really close fit. Everything builds on everything else, so if you have perfect and easy to set miters, it makes fixtures easier to set up, and so forth. Of course skill will get you there too as SJ does it. Also with lugs a few of the miters can simply be scribed from the lugs themselves.


"I don't see how the home builder who does not plan on building more than one or two frames a year can justify the cost of those tools."

It is certainly a tight squeeze. Though at $150 a year you are probably clear in six frames or so. There are another few things to consider.

1) Folks following Paternek will read they need to chase these parts multiple times, during the building process. That isn't always true, he gets laughed at a little for that, but it can be true in the sense that reamers like to cut in little bites and keeping up with it is probably smarter than doing it once at the end, at least until you know your process well enough. It can also be true as far as mating the parts to fixtures, as when testing on a table for alignment using the BB as the reference surface.

2) checking parts before the build, it can be a good time to ensure the parts are in good shape, also keeps one from putting the BB in backwards, which a few builders seem to do every year.

3) I don't think every shop will necesarilly want to be part of an amateur build, nor will every builder want the final machining done by the tool meister in every shop. Enough stuff goes wrong without any variables.

4) Quite a few folks building frames start with a bike shop background, and have access to tools. I don't and I don't have a local LBS that will help.

5) Then there are the builders that own an Anvil frame jig, and it is a hobby for them to do it like the big boys. Like a regular rider with a fancy bike.

it definitely depends on the LBS situation. There are a couple I think I would trust my frame to locally, but you never know if the newbie mechanic that knows nothing is going to grab the repair ticket on your frame and trash it. I took one of my frames to a bike shop, it still has the repair tag on it. I don't remember what I had them do though.

I'm almost ashamed to admit this, but I took my first frame to Performance for chasing and facing. I try to save face by claiming that the head mechanic talked a good talk, but...

Eventually I found a mechanic who used to build frames at the Benotto factory in Mexico, and has a Campy tool kit. He has never let me down. I can understand folks who don't have access to that kind of mechanic, though. Personally I would like to have a complete set of tools myself, but have never seen how it can be done for less than about $1000.

That's a good point about Paterek, BTW. I recommend the book because it is so complete, but there is a lot of advice I don't follow.

That's a good point about Paterek, BTW. I recommend the book because it is so complete, but there is a lot of advice I don't follow.

I can understand that. I have a few plumbing texts that are the same way.

One way I had hoped to save money was by buying cutters and making the tools. But at the cheaper end of the spectrum it was not substantially cheaper to do that. It is possible to get the big three tools for around 500. I forget exactly how, but it gets covered periodically on the other board. UBI seems to be the place. I think it would be possible to make the tools/cutters themselves, but I haven't figured it out. I think the HT could be reamed with a single point tool, and the bb also. this would be essentially like setting up for a cylinder boring operation, and powering it by hand. They used to rifle metal barrels by hand using wood jigs, and they got reasonably accurate barrels out of it. There are facing tools that are for sale that use insert technology and they are standard advanced milling projects, but folks with a mill...

I think the thing about Tim Paternek's processes is that he seems to do a lot of things by (what I guess is) the Machinist's Handbook, or some similar standard. He uses steps and quantities of oil, etc... that are pretty generous. I would guess he is rarely wrong, but sometimes stuff he suggests is skipable.

Maybe I will get Tim Paternek's book first and give it a good couple thorough reads.

When I started it was with the assumption that at some point I would decide it was too much trouble and quit -- which did indeed happen, several times. One of those times was after buying Paterek's book. it was overwhelming at first. The sheer number of operations and level of detail he presents is very intimidating. Despite that -- or maybe because of it -- I think it is well worth the very high price.

Get the videos. if you prefer... They are tough sleding also, but I think they build confidence.

Then there are the builders that own an Anvil frame jig, and it is a hobby for them to do it like the big boys. Like a regular rider with a fancy bike.

Or someone can have the luxury of purchasing the right tool for the right job, and use it accordingly.

Just because you don't churn out 10-20+ frames per year for other people doesn't mean having the correct tools to increase productivity and efficiency is as poseur-ific as "a regular rider with a fancy bike". Why would I want to waste a ****load of time rigging things together when a quality tool will make it that much more efficient- especially when I have the means to purchase it? It's the money-value of time.

And it's not to "do it like the big boys," it's the ability to know that a finished product is as good (or better) than all the others.

Don't get me wrong, I like the DIY attitude of someone who is going to use drawings and lay tubes on top of that to get the correct angles, but it's not for everyone. Give me good miter lengths, a good jig, a good alignment table, and I'd be all set.

Don't get me wrong, I like the DIY attitude of someone who is going to use drawings and lay tubes on top of that to get the correct angles, but it's not for everyone. Give me good miter lengths, a good jig, a good alignment table, and I'd be all set.seems like a lot of money for a hobby. It also seems like something that would be good as a coop arrangement. I've built hundreds of frames with good tooling, and a few working off of very crude plans with crude tools. It's not that hard to do without the tooling.

Other than the cutting tools mentioned above, I have some wood blocks to scribe the tubes with, a scribe, a couple of half round (real name is censored by the board software -- bastage) files and a hacksaw. I also have a length of 2x2" steel square tubing with a bb holder and two clamps to hold the seat tube. I've built at least 5 frames with that equipment including a tandem. None of the frames I've built this way needed a significant amount of aligning. It's a little more stressful than with a frame jig. I have a frame jig, self designed. I started back when you couldn't buy jigs in the U.S., if they were available anywhere. I don't really like using it after using some of the other equipment I've used, so I went to the stripped down version.

I think the tooling aspect keeps people from trying their hand. I recommend most people work up to it, and do things on the cheap at first.

You may find something useful in this thread;

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=399311

For whatever it's worth, I don't have anything against garage builders who splurge on top of the line tooling. In fact, I'm a bit jealous of them! Certainly, for folks who view this as a pleasurable hobby, there is no reason for them not to spend the money on tools and jigs and what have you, if that's what makes them happy. I don't view it as poseur-ish in the least. Speaking for myself, though, the whole point of learning framebuilding was that I wanted a particular style of frame and my only options were to pay a custom builder $3000, or learn how to do it myself. Obviously, it would have been slightly goofy for me to spend $3000 on tools. And as far as I am concerned, frame building is just plain hard work, which isn't what I look for in a hobby!

At any rate, the only points I'm trying to make are that A) it's not absolutely necessary to have them and still turn out good frames, and B) it's a lot of money, especially for someone who started out by telling us that he is on a "very tight budget".

HTH!

B) it's a lot of money, especially for someone who started out by telling us that he is on a "very tight budget".

HTH!

You make a very good point. I will probably just get some text or videos on the subject and do alot of research. Maybe once I'm stable again spring for some nice tools.

"Just because you don't churn out 10-20+ frames per year for other people doesn't mean having the correct tools to increase productivity and efficiency is as poseur-ific as "a regular rider with a fancy bike". Why would I want to waste a ****load of time rigging things together when a quality tool will make it that much more efficient- especially when I have the means to purchase it? It's the money-value of time."

I didn't say or imply either was poseurish, that's your hang up. My local bike shop in a not too wealthy area has rack upon rack of very fancy MTBs, many in the 4K range, I never see these bikes on the road, I have no idea who buys them, but I see no inherent difference in a fancy jig or a fancy bike. In fact I was on the verge of buying an Anvil jig just a few months back, and was selling off accumulated stuff on Cragislist to fund it.

You may find something useful in this thread;

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=399311
That is one very informative thread, and one beautiful bicycle. Thank you for the link!

OOh! Wow. I missed Cassave's link earlier. Don't know how but I did. This is a very useful thread. Thanks a million Cassave!

Excellent thread and references, including Six jours' homemade jigs. I've read a lot about these sort of set-ups, and wonder if this would work for a frame with 28.6mm DT/ST and 25.4 TT. One inch steerer, so 31.7 HT.

Similar to Six jours, an angle iron jig with the BB bolted down. But, instead of a screw set to the appropriate height to support the ST, why not just stick another BB made for oversize tubing (31.8 DT/ 28.6 ST) on the other end of the seat tube and clamp it down? Pin and braze.

Next, braze the HT to the DT, probably with the DT held vertically and gravity used to position HT.

Now the DT socket of the O/S BB can be used as a support for the HT while brazing the DT to BB joint. Perhaps with a cut-out so it can be slid onto the HT near the HT/DT joint? Or, maybe two O/S BB's, one at each end of the HT? Would have to trim some of the lug surface of the one at the HT/DT joint, or leave a lot of HT hanging out to be cut off before facing.

But, instead of a screw set to the appropriate height to support the ST, why not just stick another BB made for oversize tubing (31.8 DT/ 28.6 ST) on the other end of the seat tube and clamp it down? Pin and braze.

That's a damn fine idea. It may require a longer length of angle iron for the 62-63 cm frames I ride, but I think you've changed the way I'll be doing things.

I'm going to put some thought into the other things you mention, as they are a bit more complex and the devil really is in the details, but I thank you for at least one very good idea.

Thanks, Six. It is my intention to try this on my first build.

I wonder, with the BB/tube joint pinned, and the other end supported by a clamped BB, will the tube "float" enough to allow brazing in the fixture with out losing alignment or bending?

5) Then there are the builders that own an Anvil frame jig, and it is a hobby for them to do it like the big boys. Like a regular rider with a fancy bike.

This is a bit short-sighted. If there's one thing I've learned over the years it's that having the right tools for the job makes the end product much better. Anvil makes really good stuff. If you're going to build 1 or 2 frames and you want it _right_, I can absolutely see buying their lower dollar jig and building your bikes. When you're done, the thing doesn't turn into a pumpkin at midnight. You can sell it for probably 80% of what you paid. Your net outlay for jigging might only be a couple hundred dollars per frame. In other words, about the same amount as if you'd screwed up a nice tubeset.

I'm saving to buy the right equipment. I probably won't get an Anvil jig, but The Henry James 65 looks like a nice alternative. I'll take the money I've saved to buy the rest of the tools. I consider it an investment. Some day after I'm planted in the ground I'd like to have a grand-kid riding a bike I made and think to himself, "Wow, Pops really knew what he was doing". I've never regretted buying nice tools, but I've regretted buying cheap ones many times.

"This is a bit short-sighted" etc...

That's not entirely my point, there is nothing wrong with owning a top end bike or a top end jig. I'm not sure why one evoked solid craftsmanship and productivity, and the other gets called poseurish. What is the jig for if not to make a top end bike? People are affected by brands, and one reason to buy the top end bike building stuff is to make frames like the big boys. Same reason people buy the same golf balls Tiger Woods uses.

The only reason I didn't get the Anvil jig is the fact that during the week I was shopping for it, had my money in the bank, the cost to me went up 30% (in fact stuff was happening so fast I couldn't actually determine what the cost would be. In the current environment there really isn't any way to even know a supplier will live out the time of order execution. I could also loose out on trucking or brokerage company failure). If I lived on the US side of the border it would be in my shop right now. Maybe it would still be a good deal but it was no longer in my price range.

Additionally, I can make a jig that will do everything the Anvil will do other than rotate, and some things it won't do for a few hundred bucks. The problem there was I could never find the parts I needed, I have been looking for over a year. As luck would have it, when the door slammed in my face on the currency side, I redoubled my efforts to find the parts I needed and found the backbone I wanted. I'm still looking for some rare parts on the machinery boards right now, I don't have everything, but the cool thing about this approach is the basic backbone part is sufficient in itself to use as a frame jig. Building it out so it has Anvil functionality will take a while longer. I am basically just following a machinist/welder approach to the problem of bike fixturing. Fabricating precision parts is an everyday thing, without the need for an Anvil jig. I doubt Don Ferris uses and Anvil jig to build an Anvil jig, at some point you have to return to first principles.

My financial calculation on the Anvil was that I would buy it if I could raise half the money via resale of items on Craigslist. I sold three commercially made bikes I wasn't using, and raised about 24 hundred, which was about half what I thought the jig would cost. Then the resale you mentioned would only have to cover 50% of the cost of the Jig which is way conservative. This is the kind of thinking that meant that in September we didn't have a financial meltdown in this country, unfortunately that didn't help much. If the Dollar returns to par ever, I may well go down that path again. Getting an Anvil jig for me is just a nice tool purchase I would like to explore. There are always other tools, and right at the moment there should be a lot of them coming on the market as people feel the pinch.

"This is a bit short-sighted" etc...

That's not entirely my point, there is nothing wrong with owning a top end bike or a top end jig.

This post explains your position much better than before.

"This is a bit short-sighted" etc...


Additionally, I can make a jig that will do everything the Anvil will do other than rotate, and some things it won't do for a few hundred bucks. The problem there was I could never find the parts I needed, I have been looking for over a year. As luck would have it, when the door slammed in my face on the currency side, I redoubled my efforts to find the parts I needed and found the backbone I wanted. I'm still looking for some rare parts on the machinery boards right now, I don't have everything, but the cool thing about this approach is the basic backbone part is sufficient in itself to use as a frame jig. Building it out so it has Anvil functionality will take a while longer. I am basically just following a machinist/welder approach to the problem of bike fixturing. Fabricating precision parts is an everyday thing, without the need for an Anvil jig. I doubt Don Ferris uses and Anvil jig to build an Anvil jig, at some point you have to return to first principles.

.

Your jig gonna look something like this?

Not unless I am lucky. :)

My objective in the short term is just to make it more accurate and fixtureable than the motorcycle jig I use now, which in addition to everything else I dis-welded to wring more accuracy out of... Longer term, I want to have it adjustable like the Anvil SM. I didn't know that was what I wanted, but I figured it out, and he had already built it. I never even bothered to look at the SM it is so far out of my price range. I also want to copy his head tube method. The minimum for me is :

- Orients off the bottom bracket

- HT rotates on the center of the HT lower surface.

- CSs have to be adjustable in an XZ axis not by angle.

- All positions can be pre-set off measurements in my CAD drawings without needing to relate parts to the jig. Once the jig is quickly set it will completely describe the positions of the tubes.

- Cheap with no large scale machining.

However, in the short run it will be a bottom up jig like the Motorcycle jig, and in the longer term it will be side mounted, or possibly mounted on both axis. The table I have now can be built out both directions, but I still need to snag a few parts before anyone else gets them, before I can go as vertical as I want to.

And the idea here isn't a masterpiece, in anyone's face kind of thing. I just don't feel I need a jig, unless is totally accurate, solid, adjustable with ease. That has taken me some time to figure out of second hand parts. The HT part alone is a 4 axis tool.

I also want all kinds of personal details, like mostly it has to be good for welding, but I would like to have full access to the BB for pulling braze through a lugged BB, just to see what happens. I have quite a few details like that that I don't imagine would be desirable to most. My list is quirky enough I don't expect it to be something that will dazzle anyone else. And it is going to look like some heavy iron from the 30s got into a high speed accident.

I've worked with several jigs (HJ, Nortac, Bringheli) and was ready to get my own HJ when I stumbled across mine. I had been thinking about a motorcycle jig type of set up before, and like you, I was a put off by the amount of machining it would take to pull it off. I got lucky when I found this one, I think the machine work alone would have cost what an HJ 65 does, not to mention sourcing the raw stock. Also, it has all the attachments to make anything from a track bike to a geared tandem. I know, I'm a lucky ******* :)
I have found that the access to the frame is so good with this style of jig, I don't need it to rotate at all. I think you're on the right track with your design:thumb:

That sounds great. Tandems! The motorcycle jig is great for three out of four of the contact points, only the top of the seat post is a little up there for real control without something kinda big to reach it. I think a lot of complexity can be eliminated through the use of a digital protractor.