Folding Bikes - Brompton and beyond. Questions?

Hi Folks,

I’ve been looking for a folding bicycle for some time now to serve the following purposes:

#1 To be able to ride around my own city (presently Taichung, Taiwan) and to be able to quickly and easily go into shops, cafes and 7-11’s without having to lock up my bike. To be able to carry my folded-bike, quickly and easily and stealthily into the shop, with no difficulty carrying and no hassle from the staff that it might be too big.

#2 To be able to travel with my bike easily and use it in places that I travel to (Bangkok, Singapore, Hong-Kong, Vancouver, Toronto etc….) and put it on buses, trains and planes where possible.

#3 To be able to maintain the bike easily and with parts that I can buy locally and to be able to carry a minimum of replacement parts and tools when I travel.

#4 To feel like I am enjoying urban riding again. I own a Merida XC series mountain bike for mountain riding in Taiwan but I want to have a bike that will help me (excuse the corny-ness) to fall in love with bike riding again.

I currently live in Taichung, Taiwan where a good majority of bike manufacturers are located. (The Giant and Merida factories are just outside of the city)

For the past few months, I’ve seen that almost all of the bikes that might fill my requirements and that I have been considering are built and available in Taiwan. These include:

Birdy, Strida, Ori, Dahon (some are built here), KHS, Flamingo Bikes, Giant (Half-Way) ect……

While I have not yet tested out Ori and Birdy, I’ve checked out lots of Dahon’s, Strida’s KHS F-20 models and other bikes available here.

Nothing has really made me want to make a folding bike purchase.

That is, until I went into the Brompton dealer in Taipei.

Last weekend, I went up to Taipei to check out the one Brompton dealer there and, as it turned out, came on a pretty good day.


Will Butler-Adams (who is now the managing director of Brompton) was actually visiting the shop together with the a Taiwanese fellow named Allan who is connected with Sturmey Archer.

Will gave me a 15 minute treatise on the Brompton and showed me his own bike, which he brought all the way from London (having just been to Singapore). He spoke extremely passionately about the bike and talked about how he uses it in his daily life.

He rides an S-Type and gave me and my wife a chance to ride it.

The truth is, until you actually see a Brompton folded up, its hard to understand how small the package really is. Its small. Really small. Very much smaller and more compact than any other folded bike I had seen up to that point. Also, the ease of folding was like watching a magic show. Quick and practical.

My experience with riding the S-Type was a good one. The bike could turn on a dime and I was struck about how stretched-out the cockpit was.

The longest time I had ridden a folding bike for was a KHS F20 T2 (http://www.khsbicycles.com.tw/html/product/f20-t2.htm )that I had ridden around a Taiwan university for a couple of hours. The cockpit on that bike was way too small for me (despite the fact that I’m only about 5, 7 feet tall)

The brompton seemed to have a longer cockpit and therefore was more comfortable.

After I tried the S-Type I checked out Allan’s M-Type. This bike seemed like a bit of a different animal. Much more upright and it felt like my old late 60’s Shwinn Suburban that I used to ride around when I was in university. I very much enjoyed the upright feeling but found the experience to be slightly more ‘twitchy’ than on the S-Type. Maybe takes some getting used to.

Anyway, my experience at the Brompton shop and talking with Will (it wasn’t until later that I actually realized who he was) and the rest of the staff in Taipei has all but convinced me to score myself a Brompton.

With this in mind, I have some questions about Brompton bikes that I’m hoping some good folks can answer.

#1 M-Type, S-Type, P-Type. I’m not totally sure which handle-bar configuration to get. What is the most popular configuration? What are the drawbacks / benefits of each? What would people consider the best all around model? Is the geometry of the M type and S type and P type bikes exactly the same? Are the stem lengths on each the same? If so, do people swap out different handle-bars as the need arises. If not, are you sort of locked in?

#2 Gears:

(Part A) This is a major question. I would like to have a bike that provides lots of options, however, after riding the S-Type 2 speed, I realized simplicity can be good too. Are the 2 and 3 speed Bromptons significantly lighter than the 6 speed? Do people generally wish they bought a 6 speed after initially getting a 2 or 3 speed? Is the 6 speed much better on hills.

(Part B) I have heard that Brompton is now making its own 6 speed hub that will be different from the previous models. These bikes should be available in February. Are they worth waiting for? Is this a major upgrade? How will it be different than the previous 6 speed?

#3 Titanium parts: They say you save a kilo. In total, its about 500 USD more. Realistically, will these titanium parts be worth it in the long run or should I (as they say in the movie: 13th Warrior) just grow stronger? Is this a big deal for people who carry their bike around a lot?

#4 Options:

Tires: What is the best all-around tire option? Is it common for people to swap out Brompton tires for some better 16 inch aftermarket variety?

Lights: I don’t understand the need for light dynamos and such? Why, in the age of LED lights, would I need to spend money on a Dynamo driven light. Am I missing something? It seems to me that these Dynamo lights just add a lot more weight.

Rear-Rack: I want the bike for traveling and I can imagine that I’ll use the bike for carrying some degree of baggage. However, after seeing the rear-rack on the bikes, it seems like it does add a fair amount of bulk to the over-all fold-factor. Seems like the rear-rack does provide some stability when folded. Also, it rolls easier. Do people feel that the rear-rack is an important option?

Easy Wheels. Seems like it’s a good idea to score a set of easy wheels to replace the casters on the bike. They are, however, about 50 bucks! Do people order these or create a different (off the shelf) option for themselves.

Saddle: It seems like the Brooks B-17 is considered a god-send my most cyclists. Should I believe the hype?

#5 Maintenance. I recently watched a video on YouTube that describes how to take off the rear hub-assembly to fix a blown tire. Holy Smokes! Very involved! Are Brompton’s built with user-maintenance in mind? Are they fairly maintenance-free? Is it easy to figure out how to do all the work myself? What is the size of the tool kit that most people have to carry around with them? I imagine that the tools need to be in imperial?

#6 Other options: Besides the bike cover, are there any other Brompton options that people regard as a good idea? Pump? Certain luggage bags?

Thanks in advance for any and all responses. I know that many, if not all of these issues have been covered somewhere and at some point before but I’m hoping for lots of fresh ideas.

Cheers.

Hey, welcome to the club! I'll try to answer the questions I can be helpful with; I'm snipping a bunch of stuff for brevity's sake.


...
With this in mind, I have some questions about Brompton bikes that I’m hoping some good folks can answer.

#1 M-Type, S-Type, P-Type. I’m not totally sure which handle-bar configuration to get. What is the most popular configuration? What are the drawbacks / benefits of each? What would people consider the best all around model? Is the geometry of the M type and S type and P type bikes exactly the same? Are the stem lengths on each the same? If so, do people swap out different handle-bars as the need arises. If not, are you sort of locked in?

The M-type bar is the most common, and the one I'm using. Only real drawback I can see is that it can slip in the clamp if you're overly aggressive about dropping off curbs / riding through potholes / etc. The stem lengths between the types are all different. The bars can be changed around, though it's not something you'd want to do often with the B's pinch-bolt-style stem clamp.


#2 Gears:

(Part A) This is a major question. I would like to have a bike that provides lots of options, however, after riding the S-Type 2 speed, I realized simplicity can be good too. Are the 2 and 3 speed Bromptons significantly lighter than the 6 speed? Do people generally wish they bought a 6 speed after initially getting a 2 or 3 speed? Is the 6 speed much better on hills.

The 2-speed will be quite a bit lighter than the 3-speed; the 6 speed will be slightly heavier than the 3-speed (it being the three-speed, plus a pair of sprockets and a derailer-enabled tensioner).

Stock gearing does tend to be a little high; ask for one of the reduced gearing options if you think you'll be confronting hills regularly.



(Part B) I have heard that Brompton is now making its own 6 speed hub that will be different from the previous models. These bikes should be available in February. Are they worth waiting for? Is this a major upgrade? How will it be different than the previous 6 speed?

The BWR is a lighter version of the current 6-speed setup.


#3 Titanium parts: They say you save a kilo. In total, its about 500 USD more. Realistically, will these titanium parts be worth it in the long run or should I (as they say in the movie: 13th Warrior) just grow stronger? Is this a big deal for people who carry their bike around a lot?

The Ti parts are definitely tempting, but the weight isn't that big a deal for me--even though I've added weighty parts, carry my M3L up stairs regularly, and have pencil-like arms. Probably the S2L would be the most cost-effective way to get a light Brompton.


#4 Options:

Tires: What is the best all-around tire option? Is it common for people to swap out Brompton tires for some better 16 inch aftermarket variety?

I've been happy with the stock tires, though some switch to Schwalbe Marathons.





Easy Wheels. Seems like it’s a good idea to score a set of easy wheels to replace the casters on the bike. They are, however, about 50 bucks! Do people order these or create a different (off the shelf) option for themselves.

The replacement wheels on eBay are a good choice; the Easy Wheels, IIRC, are only recommended if you have a rack installed.



Saddle: It seems like the Brooks B-17 is considered a god-send my most cyclists. Should I believe the hype?

YMMV, but I've always had better luck with leather saddles than plastic ones. I've got a Selle An-Atomica on my B now, which is another leather saddle you'd do well to contemplate.




#6 Other options: Besides the bike cover, are there any other Brompton options that people regard as a good idea? Pump? Certain luggage bags?



I've replaced the stock Zefal pump with a Quicker Pro. Haven't needed it yet though (crosses fingers).

ECB

ECB,

Thanks for the reply.

I'm wondering, whats it like to 'live' with your bike?

Does it meet your expectations?

Does it enhance your transportation lifestyle?

Make your life better?

Hi,

I bought my S2L-x this year and use it for my daily 12km bike commute to work.
It is perfect for my daily commute since there are no hills along the way and it is relatively flat.
I am only 5 feet 5 inches and the flat bar is ok.

But for long distances and with hills along the way, you will definitely need a 6 speed.
I recently used my brompton 6 speed with rack to a 2 days trip with food and camping provision and the lower gearing really helped me a lot to get over the hills.

Regards,
ed

PS .... i may replace my flat bar with 2.5 riser bars as described by bikerouc to get a more upright riding position

Bromptons are great - no doubt. I like them. I have a bike built by Flamingobike (Grace Gallant corp). It is also pretty good, is a copy of the bike you want, and is probably available in Taiwan for about a third of what you'll pay for a Brompton. You can have one with three or seven speed hubs.


Three speed:



Seven speed:



These have a differently designed frame to the one I have from them which is tubular like the B, but the general quality of the bikes is pretty good for the money. Mine has seen a lot of use and is very reliable and folds exactly the same as the B.

I hate to cast doubt on your decision to buy a Brompton, but reading the first part of your post I thought the Bike Friday Tikit would meet your needs perfectly:
#1 It will go into shops better than a Brompton because it folds more quickly, it is lighter, and it rolls more easily (although the Brompton rolls you would never be able to roll it into any shop except a large supermarket because you either need to leave the handlebars sticking out or leave the seat up with the rear wheel susceptible to flopping out). Also you can't really use the Brompton rear rack for carrying stuff because the bike sits on top of it while folded. The Brompton does have a front bag that can be used, but as you said, the more you add the more you erode the Brompton's size advantage.
#2 It will travel just about as easily as a Brompton depending on your needs. In this regard the Brompton's advantage is that it can go into a standard suitcase with absolutely no disassembly when traveling long distance (just the standard fold) and has a better chance of fitting under the seat on local buses and trains. The tikit's advantage, however, is that there is a special suitcase designed for it that converts into a trailer (you only have to remove the seat, handlebars, and front wheel to pack it with plenty of room to spare), so you're not stuck with an empty suitcase at your destination, and since you can rest it on the ground while holding it it's better for crowded local transit where you might have to stand.
#3 The tikit would probably also be better for maintenance and repairs while traveling because it uses a derailleur, quick release wheels, and overall more standard parts. Plus bike friday has been known to send replacement parts overnight to far off countries (doubt you'd get that kind of service from Brompton).
#4 Bike Friday prides themselves on the quality of the ride. Personally I think the Brompton rides better than the tikit, but even the most reputable Brompton dealer in NYC says the main difference between the Tikit and the Brompton is that the tikit has a better ride and a bigger fold, so I guess I'm an oddball.

I hate to be a naysayer, but I don't think the Brompton is really designed for your needs. The Brompton is almost perfect for suburbanites commuting by rail, but in my opinion there are much better bikes for taking into shops or traveling.

Personally I decided against both bikes because the only bike I've found I can truly carry "quickly and easily and stealthily into the shop, with no difficulty carrying and no hassle from the staff that it might be too big" is the Pacific Cycles Carryme (made in Taiwan alongside the Birdy), but I'm not looking to travel or fall in love with cycling (just get around my city as quickly and with as little hassle as possible).

As far as the tikit goes, there is lots of info around the forum and internet. In particular here is a Dahon vs Brompton vs Tikit video showdown (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=471200) and a list of Bike Friday dealers in Taiwan (http://www.bikefriday.com/DealerLocator).

EvilV,

Thanks for the reply.

I currently have an email into Grace Gallant and have asked them two questions:

#1 to see if the bike you actually have is still available (I doubt it is)

#2 To see where in Taiwan I can potentially check out the bikes in the above photos.

Apparently, there are several retail outlets in Taiwan that now stock Flamingo folding bikes but none of them are in the city I live.

We'll see what they have to tell me.

I actually met with one of the Flamingo reps. about eight months ago and he showed me several bikes including the FL-BP01-7. It was brand new and it took a while to adjust it. I took it for a ride and it was ok I suppose. At that time, I couldn't conceive of buying a 16 inch wheel bike. This, especially since right afterward, I rode one of his 20 inch wheel bikes and the ride was great.

I think the whole M shaped handlebars seem weird at first.

I actually have lots of pictures of those bikes and I'll try to post them here.

As I have now found a shop here in Taichung that sells Brompton, I'm trying to remember how the two bikes compared.

The first thing I remember is that the rack on the back of the Flamingo bike substantially made the folded package lots more bulky. The reason I want to buy a Brompton in the first place is because it really does provide the most compact option available. The Flamingo back rack is quite a bit more raised compared to the one that is an option for the Brompton. Also, on the Brompton, there is a wheel caster on the back fender that allows the bike to sit when folded without using the full back rack. On the Flamingo there is no wheel caster on the back fender so you really need the back rack to make the thing stand up when folded and you definitely need it so you can wheel it around.

Also, I remember trying to fold the Flamingo seemed kind of laborious. It could have been because the thing was new and still needed adjusting and such. However, when I folded the Brompton in the shop tonight, it only took me like 30 seconds to fold and unfold the thing and I am by no means an expert.

Provided I can get a look at some more Flamingos, I'll try to provide a much more in depth report for the forum including some more pictures and videos.

One thing about the Flamingo bikes I've seen seem to be the prospect of modification. It might be possible to upgrade breaks and grip-shifts as the need arises.

Obviously, the Brompton, because of the fact that nothing on it is standard, means modification options are limited.

I also, of course, really wonder about whether or not Flamingo is engaging in patent infringement. I suspect that they worry about that. Otherwise, I imagine they would already have dealers in the US and in the UK.

I'll keep everyone posted.


Cheers

makeinu (http://www.bikeforums.net/member.php?u=71207)

Thanks for your ideas regarding Bike Friday. I didn't realize they had any distribution in Taiwan whatsoever. I'll check out their shop tomorrow.

As far as being able to roll a bike into a shop, I think that nothing beats the Strida.

This thing is about the same size as a baby stroller and would certainly be welcome in any shop here in Taiwan no sweat. Its a bit of a toy however and certainly wouldn't help me with my travel needs.

Thanks for the great advice.

Here is one of the pictures of the Flamingo FL-BP01-7 I took when I met with one of the reps

Here is a photo of the Flamingo FL-BP01-7 folded

At least with the older style Flamingo -- the type that EvilV has -- the Merc's fold is identical to my eye with the Brompton. I had both for a few months. In fact, most if not all of the parts are interchangeable.

If the Brompton fits you then I think it is a great urban bike. In fact with my knee getting better and my fit subsequently changing, I might try one again. Here are my suggestions:

(1) The rear rack is not very useful unless you plan on really hauling lots of stuff. Otherwise, the front bag can carry a lot of stuff. Especially for urban riding. You can always get a Carradice saddlebag if you think that extra capacity is needed.

(2) I would not use the Brompton's Easy Wheels. Instead I would install roller blade wheels ... it is both cheaper and better performing.

(3) If you are thinking about the titanium option, then you have some flexibility in price. I would skip the titanium unless you have to carry the bike long distances or up many steps and use the money for improving the gearing.

(4) At the moment, the gearing options are pretty limited in my opinion. I would stick with the three speed hub in the rear and have a Schlumpf drive installed to get wide gearing. Definitely expensive; but also an elegant solution.

The tikit ... I test rode a tikit about a month or two ago. I thought that it rode pretty well and it does have some decent options for carrying stuff on the bike. If you want to change the dimensions of the cockpit, it will be considerably easier to do so on the tikit than the Brompton or Flamingo. There are also three frame sizes which also help the ergonomics cause. In my experience, Bike Friday service has been excellent. Although there are exceptions that have been discussed on the YAK group.

I wish I had those brakes on my Flamingo (Merc) BP01-3. It has pretty poor caliper brakes, although I can get along with them now. V-brakes would be far better. Anyway - You are obviously well aware of the flamingo rip off series, and you obviously don't need to save money if you are thinking about titanium Brompton parts. I'd really like a Brompton 6 speed in raw laquer like Mulleady has (I think his is a six speed). It's a very pretty bike, but I can't bring myself to chuck that much cash at a bike more or less functionally identical to the cheaper one I have had for two and a half years. I've had great service out of it.

By the way, it folds oK and is the same dimensions as the B as far as I know. I wonder if the seven speed hub makes the bike wider when folded? I think they may be wider than the wonderful SA SRF3 - I love that hub it will probably do a million miles - my knees won't though so someone else will need to take over and do the rest when I fall over and croak.

The Brompton is a great bike, as you have discovered. I've had my S6L for about 3 months, and in that time I've travelled on busses, coaches, and trains all over the country. It is easy enough to do, although it does get heavy if you have to carry it far. Bus drivers are sometimes reluctant to let the bike on, so the saddle bag cover thing is well worth having http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9ic6cssX_50 .

As to lights, I agree with you about dynamos, I use battery LEDs. The standard Brompton LED lights are better than nothing, but not great. I bought a set containing CatEye TL-LD1100 rear and EL530 front LEDs - they are much better, sufficient for riding in darkness with no streetlights.

The 6 speed gears give a reasonable range, though I wouldn't mind another lower and another higher gear, I can live without them. The new wide range 6 speed has bigger gaps between the gears, and I don't know if I'd like that either...

It is possible to carry lots of stuff on a Brompton:


I too prefer the more stretched out position of the S-bar, but it does limit front luggage options. The S-bag is small, no two ways about it. Perhaps the P-bar would be better, giving more hand positions, the lowest similar to the S-bar, the highest similar to the M-bar, and the full range of luggage... but it's just so ugly!

#1 M-Type, S-Type, P-Type. I’m not totally sure which handle-bar configuration to get. What is the most popular configuration? What are the drawbacks / benefits of each? What would people consider the best all around model? Is the geometry of the M type and S type and P type bikes exactly the same? Are the stem lengths on each the same? If so, do people swap out different handle-bars as the need arises. If not, are you sort of locked in?

#2 Gears:

(Part A) This is a major question. I would like to have a bike that provides lots of options, however, after riding the S-Type 2 speed, I realized simplicity can be good too. Are the 2 and 3 speed Bromptons significantly lighter than the 6 speed? Do people generally wish they bought a 6 speed after initially getting a 2 or 3 speed? Is the 6 speed much better on hills.

(Part B) I have heard that Brompton is now making its own 6 speed hub that will be different from the previous models. These bikes should be available in February. Are they worth waiting for? Is this a major upgrade? How will it be different than the previous 6 speed?

#3 Titanium parts: They say you save a kilo. In total, its about 500 USD more. Realistically, will these titanium parts be worth it in the long run or should I (as they say in the movie: 13th Warrior) just grow stronger? Is this a big deal for people who carry their bike around a lot?

#4 Options:

Tires: What is the best all-around tire option? Is it common for people to swap out Brompton tires for some better 16 inch aftermarket variety?

Lights: I don’t understand the need for light dynamos and such? Why, in the age of LED lights, would I need to spend money on a Dynamo driven light. Am I missing something? It seems to me that these Dynamo lights just add a lot more weight.

Rear-Rack: I want the bike for traveling and I can imagine that I’ll use the bike for carrying some degree of baggage. However, after seeing the rear-rack on the bikes, it seems like it does add a fair amount of bulk to the over-all fold-factor. Seems like the rear-rack does provide some stability when folded. Also, it rolls easier. Do people feel that the rear-rack is an important option?

Easy Wheels. Seems like it’s a good idea to score a set of easy wheels to replace the casters on the bike. They are, however, about 50 bucks! Do people order these or create a different (off the shelf) option for themselves.

Saddle: It seems like the Brooks B-17 is considered a god-send my most cyclists. Should I believe the hype?

#5 Maintenance. I recently watched a video on YouTube that describes how to take off the rear hub-assembly to fix a blown tire. Holy Smokes! Very involved! Are Brompton’s built with user-maintenance in mind? Are they fairly maintenance-free? Is it easy to figure out how to do all the work myself? What is the size of the tool kit that most people have to carry around with them? I imagine that the tools need to be in imperial?

#6 Other options: Besides the bike cover, are there any other Brompton options that people regard as a good idea? Pump? Certain luggage bags?

Thanks in advance for any and all responses. I know that many, if not all of these issues have been covered somewhere and at some point before but I’m hoping for lots of fresh ideas.

Cheers.

#1 M-Type, S-Type, P-Type.Try out all three bikes again if you are able to before you buy. That is the best way to figure out which one is the best for you and your wife if she is going to use it too.

#2 Gears: (Part A & B) I would wait until the new 2009 model rolls out after January 1 2009. That way you will not have to upgrade to the new Sturmey-Archer wider range system. As for the other choices, I don't go for weight so much as what will get me up 99% of the hills that I encounter.

#3 Titanium parts: I personally don't think that the Titanium parts are worth the extra price. I simply don't carry a ton of accessories and other junk on my own Brompton bike when I ride or carry it about.

#4 Options:

Tires: I still use the tires that came with my Brompton (Raleigh Records). I will upgrade to the Marathons when these wear out.

Lights: I don't bother with all that heavy lights from Brompton and others either. I use a simple battery powered lights for the front and the rear. Never had problem with that type of lighting.

Rear-Rack: I don't have one for my present Brompton, but for my next one, I think I will add it to my order. With the new upgrades offered now, I can lock the rear wheel. That means that the rear section won't flop up and down (more so with a rack on back). And it does balance the bike better.

Easy Wheels. I use other systems to move the bike about (like a luggage cart or a mover's funiture dolly.

#5 Maintenance. In the three years-this month-that I owned my Brompton, I never had to do more than minimal maintenance for it. It literally is a almost maintenance free bike. I do follow the manual that came with the to lube and adjust it. That's all. No fancy tools, no great amount of time for this. See my Geocites Website for a book on maintaining a Brompton & more tips:

http://www.geocities.com/folder_fanatic/Maintenance.html (http://www.geocities.com/folder_fanatic/Maintenance.html)

#6 Other options: I do like the accessories that Brompton offers for it's bikes. The front luggage system is something to look into and install on your bike when you order. The pump comes with the bike. For bags, I make my own (see my Flickr site for photos & instructions at):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/world-of-folding-bicycles/sets/72157601331380862/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/world-of-folding-bicycles/sets/72157601331380862/)

or I buy them like the Dimpa Storage bag at Ikea and other places:

http://www.geocities.com/folder_fanatic/Security3A.html (http://www.geocities.com/folder_fanatic/Security3A.html)

and

http://www.geocities.com/folder_fanatic/Security4.html

I plan to also check out Ori Bikes while I'm at it. There is not a lot of information around about Ori but I do see a few riding around every so often. I'll see if they are available in my area of Taiwan.

I hate to be a naysayer, but I don't think the Brompton is really designed for your needs. The Brompton is almost perfect for suburbanites commuting by rail, but in my opinion there are much better bikes for taking into shops or traveling. I beg to differ; comparing the two bikes last spring, I was impressed with the Tikit in many ways: choice of 3 sizes, standard parts, better ride, and the fastest fold on the planet. But… I ended up choosing the Brompton. Stand next to a folded Tikit and a folded Brompton and I think you'll find it's not even close—the folded Brompton makes for a much smaller, neater package. Arriving at my office in the morning, I can fold my Brompton in about 20 seconds and then cover it with its bag in another 10. And suddenly, what was once a bicycle is now a neat, rectangular-ish package that I can carry—easily—through a revolving door. In a building that does not allow bicycles. As a test, on a recent Saturday morning I took the Brompton around the 'hood to do all my errands: dry cleaners, bakery, friend's apartment lobby, Starbucks, a local pub. I was able to quickly fold, cover and "sneak" the Brompton into every location. In fact, two of the shops were so smitten with the thing that they offered to stow it under a counter where they could keep an eye on it!

Beyond that, unlike the Tikit, the Brompton is highly evolved; time-tested and proven. All the kinks have been worked out. Folding it, unfolding it and riding it, it feels like a quality piece. And it makes great sounds: the way it ticks when riding, the precise clicks and clacks when folding it; you just feel like you've purchased something well thought out—and well made.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

Beyond that, unlike the Tikit, the Brompton is highly evolved; time-tested and proven. All the kinks have been worked out. Folding it, unfolding it and riding it, it feels like a quality piece. And it makes great sounds: the way it ticks when riding, the precise clicks and clacks when folding it; you just feel like you've purchased something well thought out—and well made.

Hmmmmm ... I think hanging around BromptonTalk for a few weeks will demonstrate that these notions are far from universal. That written, I am happy that you found a good match.

ECB,

Thanks for the reply.

I'm wondering, whats it like to 'live' with your bike?

Does it meet your expectations?

Does it enhance your transportation lifestyle?

Make your life better?

Sorry for the delay in replying; work intervened. :)

I think wanting a bike to "make your life better" is a huge load to put onto any bike, folding or not.

That being said, the Brompton has improved my traveling; it's nice to be able to take a bike onto a plane as luggage, and have it everywhere I go.

The B has also definitely improved my commuting. I can ride to the office in suit and tie and not worry about getting my clothes messed up. It's definitely better than taking a car such a short distance, feeling stupid and guilty all the while.

I was expecting it to be harsher riding than my other bike (a 700c-wheeled fixed-gear). To some extent, that's true, but not nearly as much so as I expected. It's nothing a little tire-pressure twiddling can't fix. Plus the M3L's riding position--now that I've canted the bars forward a bit, and installed stubby bar ends--just feels right. I tried going back to the fixed last week, and was horrified at just how much agony it inflicted on my hands, neck, shoulders, and back.

ECB

I have a 6 speed Brompton in raw lacquer. I agree the Bike Friday Tikit is a very good bike but it still does not fold as compactly as the Brompton. The Tikit has a slightly faster fold/unfold but you are perhaps talking about a difference of 10 seconds.

My opinion is the 6 speed gearing option increased the versatility of the bike. The new wider spaced gearing will be a minor improvement rather than anything major. I have very strong views on the weight savings gained by using titanium and/or 2 gears. They are very marginal weight savings to say the least. I use a rear Dynamo with the standing light (built in capacitor for when you're stationary) and find it very useful. There is a front Son hub option too but I think the premium you have to pay for it is too expensive.

I would definitely recommend the front luggage carrying option with a bag of your choice and the inclusion of a rear carrier with eaziwheels. The practicality and usefulness of these features far outweighs the modest weight additions. You can roll the Brompton along on the eazilwheels with the bike folded but the handlebars up. In other situations carrying the Bromptons short distances is easy enough as it latches so well together when folded.

I prefer the position of the traditional M type but that is much more of a subjective issue and based on personal preference.

As others have discovered, (http://www.anatolyivanov.com/prose/en/AI.7.00109/) the tikit is essentially a better bike than the Brompton in almost every feature but one: folding compactness (and, only if you live in the UK, price). The tikit has "real bike" geometry, particularly for larger people, is adjustable, is stabler and has better trail (or to put another way, actually has trail), is far more customizable with standard parts both from the factory and after the fact, has better brakes and certain other components, has quick-release wheels, folds like lightning, and comes from a company with a stellar customer satisfaction record, even when compared to Brompton's very good one.

But that one feature -- folding compactness -- can be a deal-breaker. If you need to fold your bike down into nothing, the Brompton is the choice. In fact, it's the Brompton's excellence in this one feature which causes the Brompton to sacrifice on all the others.

I think the fundamental question you need to ask yourself is: do I need super-compactness? If so, the Brompton would be a good route, followed by certain Dahons. From your self-description, I'd say this is not the crucial feature, and in fact the tikit's speed and ease of folding (and the Bromptonites here are rather underestimating the degree to which the tikit folds faster IMHO) could really be a win for you if you're going in and out of shops a lot rather than commuting on british rail.

Now there is another thing to consider: the tikit is new. The Brompton is some 20 years old. Bike Friday engineered a lot of clever gizmos into the tikit, and those gizmos do not have a long track record yet. On the other hand, this is a company with a lifetime warranty on their frames and a very high interest in keeping their rider base happy.

One last item to consider: the Brompton's high degree of custom pieces makes me a bit concerned about use in the far corners of the world. Some are not easily replaceable a long way from a Brompton dealer. Bike Friday's reputation for far-flung bike use is famous.

If we're putting up pictures, here are some tikit pics. The second is shot from what I like to call "the Vik angle". :-) Yes, the sign says "No Bikes".

Thats a really good looking bike.

There is one dealer in my city that carries Bike Friday and apparently, they have one Tikit in stock that I'm going to check out today. We'll see what kind of price is involved.

Basically, the Brompton that I'm interested in and have priced is:

M6L (Basic Black)
With Brooks B17

1340 USD.

Which model of Tikit is yours?

I have found a dealer here in Taichung (Taiwan) -where I live- as service is important and in Taiwan, is basically free if you buy a bike locally. (Tune-ups and such)

I quite like the idea of Bike Friday as -having checked out their website- it seems totally devoted to the traveling cyclist. That trailer / suitcase is wicked cool.

But I wonder, what do people think about derailleurs versus hub bikes?

I wonder if hubs are as maintainence free as they are made out to be.

Besides Brompton's obvious advantages in terms of folded-size and compact form factor, all of the greasy and dirty bits are folded inside the interior of the bike.

I wonder how many people regard this as important as well.

I spent the weekend recently with a KHS F-20 T2 and -when folded- the derailleur of that bike is on the outside of the fold. I basically spent the following few days de-greasing several articles of clothing and the interior of my friend's car that I was also borrowing. That was a major pain.

It seemed to me that the Brompton folds fairly clean.

Do you feel that the Tikit is a grease-trap? Or are you able to keep things fairly clean when you travel on buses and throw it in trunks?

Thanks for the advice.

Those are neat little bags on the rear rack. And it appears that they remain on while folded. How much stuff can you fit in them?

-- Your Arlington neighbor. ;)

But I wonder, what do people think about derailleurs versus hub bikes?

I wonder if hubs are as maintainence free as they are made out to be.

Besides Brompton's obvious advantages in terms of folded-size and compact form factor, all of the greasy and dirty bits are folded inside the interior of the bike.

The chain is inside the fold of both bikes.

For super small wheel bikes -- < 20" wheels -- I think that the bikeforum consensus is that derailers hang pretty close to the ground such that internal hubs are preferred if you ride offroad. Search the forum and you will find plenty of posts that discuss internal hub versus derailer drivetrains.

Those are neat little bags on the rear rack. And it appears that they remain on while folded. How much stuff can you fit in them?

-- Your Arlington neighbor. ;)

It seems to be this:
http://www.axiomgear.com/product/bags/handlebar_bags/product.php?id=84

Pretty good idea to use a handlebar bag for the rear rack. It claims a 5 liter capacity.

It turns out that there are a couple of Ori dealers fairly close to my house and I dropped round to give it a test drive. He had a C8 available so I drove it around the block.

Great ride!

I would say that the ride was similar to the Brompton M series in that it provides something of an upright 'Amsterdam' feel to it. The gears were smooth, the breaks were solid and -despite the look of it- the handling wasn't twitchy at all.

The shop owner showed me the fold a few times and when its done, its almost as small as the Brompton but not quite.

Definitely a modern commuters bike.

I imagine that this bike is already starting to erode Brompton's market-share.

Here in Taiwan its priced at:

C8 = 29000 NT or $863 USD
C9 = 34000 NT or 1100 USD

I then went across town to check out the one shop in Taichung that carries Bike Friday.

The dealer was a Merida shop and he had to haul the Tikit out from the corner where it sat. I don't know how many years old this thing was but I'm sure its not new.

Anyway, the boss pumped up the tires and let me take it for a test ride.

Again, Great Ride!!!

Substantially different than both Ori and Brompton. A much sportier feel. Very very responsive and was definitely built for speed. Gotta love that bar-end bell thingy. Cool!

The grip shifter was a little sloppy and the stock grips were terrible foam. I imagine everyone replaces the grips immediately.

The V breaks were by far the best when comparing between the Brompton and the Ori and the stock tires were super speedy and thin.

The boss folded and unfolded it a bunch of times and I was surprised at how compact it was. I guess, after reading a lot of discussions, I had expected it to be massive when folded but it wasn't that bad at all compared to the Brompton and Ori.

One of the features that intrigued me the most was that you could roll it on one of its wheels when folded. I could see this as a major major plus when traveling and -I imagine- when commuting with the thing.

If I was doing any sort of traveling to another country, the Tikit would really be my bike of choice.

For daily commuting from Subway to bus and on the road, I'm going to have to go with the Ori.

Unfortunately, the boss wanted 54000 NT = $1605 USD for the Tikit which is way too steep.

If I could have scored one for about 1000 USD, I would have bought it right there.

Definitely, an interesting day.

:thumb:

in fact the tikit's speed and ease of folding (and the Bromptonites here are rather underestimating the degree to which the tikit folds faster IMHO) could really be a win for you if you're going in and out of shops a lot rather than commuting on british rail.Actually a 'Bromptonite' is a Brompton owner and cult follower who thinks no other bike exists but the Brompton. I presume you were indirectly referring to my post. Excuse me I'm not a Bromptonite in particurlar and I love all folding bikes and also own a Dahon Mu SL. You claim the Tikit is superior in every department so that makes you much more of a fanboy actually and maybe a Tikitite lol? Where the Tikit might be better over a longer distance than a Brompton I'd hardly call it a superior ride. I recommended the Brompton as ideal for the op's commute and go requirements. I also stated the 6 speed represents a very good ride and I stand by that. Please do not generalise about Brompton owners who actually appreciate and like their bike including myself, we are not all fanboys thankyou! :)

I also said the difference in folding speed was marginal. If you look on Youtube you can witness for yourself how fast the Brompton can be folded and unfolded. I can fold/unfold mine in under 15 seconds. The advantages of the Tikit in this respect in everyday use are minimal to say the least.

Having said that, the prospects of having a SRAM dual drive 24 speed Tikit represents probably the best all around folding bike for both commute and go and longer distance riding if a dual purpose is required. I'd like to think this is not a Brompton Vs Tikit argument as both bikes are excellent actually.

Good luck with your Ori Driftwork. I saw Oris in a folding bike in Shanghai recently and the quality and design was really good and the prices were very competitive.

maybe a Tikitite?

Tikit-holder? Dunno what a tikit fanboy should be called.

I'm a bit obsessive when it comes to buying items involving a lot of ego-investiture (like bikes or computers or cars). Occasionally I wind up gathering all my research on the item and putting to together as an online review. When I got a Nokia N800 internet tablet, my review was fairly tough (http://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/n800/). The tikit fared a lot better (http://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/tikit/). FWIW: at this point I have owned four folding bikes, only one of which was a tikit.


It seems to be this...

Correct. The standard rear rack of the tikit isn't tall enough for panniers, and you'd kick them anyway. So I attached an Axiom handlebar bag to the right side, and it's out of the way of my heels. It folds fairly neatly between the two wheels so no additional space is taken up when folded.


Which model of Tikit is yours?

It's a standard hyperfold, but it has a bit of history. I ordered a used size-large black hyperfold from BF with a built-in cover and rear rack. That bike had some frame problems, and BF had it quickly replaced with a brand-new one off the factory floor, with choice of basic color, and they threw in a front rack. BUT this new bike they shipped me was a medium! Now, I'm right on the edge, too small for a large, too big for a medium. So BF offered either to ship me a yet another large, or if I liked I could take elements from the large (basically the handlebars and stem) and use them on the medium -- which I did, and the bike fits perfectly. BF also built me a slightly shorter seatpost tube (the red part) so I could attach a Thudbuster in the future if I wanted. For free. This is a customer-oriented company.

So anyway I have a unique tikit. To add to the oddity, BF borrowed a tube from their Season tikit line in building it. So my bike says "Season tikit" (the model with a hub) even though it's clearly not! I call it the FrankenTikit.

I do like the bike a lot.

The dealer was a Merida shop and he had to haul the Tikit out from the corner where it sat. I don't know how many years old this thing was but I'm sure its not new.


It can't be more than two years old. But the hyperfold tikits have changed in one big way since then: they've moved from two hyperfold cables to one big thick one, resulting in a much stiffer handlebar stem. You'd want to make sure it was upgraded if it's the older model.



The grip shifter was a little sloppy and the stock grips were terrible foam. I imagine everyone replaces the grips immediately.


Immediately. It was the first thing I did.



Unfortunately, the boss wanted 54000 NT = $1605 USD for the Tikit which is way too steep.


Yeah. That's way too much. :-( An unused early-model tikit goes for $1K in the US.

Have fun with your Ori!

Maybe you should order directly from Bike Friday if you are interested in the tikit.

Although in reference to an earlier post, the hyperfold tikits are more than $1K ... right? I recall that $250 separates the model-t from the tikit-to-ride.

It turns out that there are a couple of Ori dealers fairly close to my house and I dropped round to give it a test drive. He had a C8 available so I drove it around the block.



Speaking of Ori, were any Z20's (http://www.oribikes.com/products/z20.asp) to be found showcased?

Speaking of Ori, were any Z20's (http://www.oribikes.com/products/z20.asp) to be found showcased?
Thanks
Looks like on this Z20 they have finally ditched the ugly duck neck stem, that always grated with me - now its almost swan like - nice :thumb:

the hyperfold tikits are more than $1K ... right? I recall that $250 separates the model-t from the tikit-to-ride.

Right. But the bike he was looking at was probably a 2007. Old model tikits or refurbished ones (http://bikefriday.com/PreOwned) usually go for some $200 less. That was probably a $1K tikit (or slightly more) I'm guessing. $1600 is a lot. Maybe it's an import duty thing.

Right. But the bike he was looking at was probably a 2007. Old model tikits or refurbished ones (http://bikefriday.com/PreOwned) usually go for some $200 less. That was probably a $1K tikit (or slightly more) I'm guessing. $1600 is a lot. Maybe it's an import duty thing.

$1.6 K is a lot. I would call them directly to see if the alternative has any big savings.

what's the best price on bromptons in tw??
i wonder how much bargaining room is there seeing how the economy is really suffering....

According to what I've seen, the price for Bromptons is about what you'd pay in the USA and Canada and elsewhere (outside of the UK).

I don't think that the price of Bromptons will get any cheaper as the recession continues to slide.

I'm really jazzed about the Bike Friday Tikit which is drastically overpriced in Taiwan.

I was quoted the price of 66,000 NT yesterday by the BF dealer in Taipei.

Thats for the new 2009 hyper-fold.

Thats about 2000 USD.

I think thats about 500 USD more than I would pay in the US or Canada.

........grass is always greener.

I was quoted the price of 66,000 NT yesterday by the BF dealer in Taipei.

Thats for the new 2009 hyper-fold.

Thats about 2000 USD.

I think thats about 500 USD more than I would pay in the US or Canada.

........grass is always greener.

The truth is going to hurt. The $1500 figure is still ~$200 over the price of a tikit here. Did you try calling Bike Friday direct?

I plan to call Bike Friday directly and try to figure out how I can score one from the US of A.

I'll be back in Canada for a visit in the summer so I can sort it out then.

I'll either order one directly and have it delivered to a friend in upstate New York and ride it back to Canada or perhaps by the summer, there will be a good bike shop in Toronto that will order custom Bike Friday bikes.

I've heard Urbane Cycle (in Toronto) is starting to order custom BF bikes.

Still, in Canada, I'd have to deal with the GST and sales tax. (15% or so)

Actually, I'm a little confused by the BF website.

I want to order the:

The standard Hyperfold model, called "Just the tikit®" but I'm unsure if that comes in small / medium or large frame set?

I'm about 170 cm tall (5,7) so I figure the medium frame-set would be the bike for me.

But it doesn't say anything about that option for the 'Just the Tikit'.

I figure I'll just call them.

After trying out all of the folders available here in Taiwan, I've got to say I was most impressed by the BF Tikit. I took a Brompton M6 for a 20 minute ride the other day and loved the upright riding posture, but for the money, it just isn't a serious enough bike for me.

Exactly as people say, if you are riding 3-4 km to an elaborate subway system, need to roll it along, jump on a train, put the folded package between your legs on a rush-hour train while holding on to something, I think the Brompton would be perfect. It really folds so very small that nobody would complain.

If I lived in Taipei (which has good roads and a fairly elaborate subway system) I would score the Brompton in five seconds flat.

For me, however, the Tikit is much more of a distance machine. I took an older Model T Tikit for a ride a couple of weeks or so ago and it rode beautifully. I guess the stock Marathon tires are incredibly smooth anyway, but the control and build quality of the Tikit was tremendously impressive.

The breaks on the Tikit felt so so very much more reliable than on the brand new Brompton that I rode.

V-breaks really win the day for me.

Still, I'm going to have to figure out how to get myself a Tikit somewhere outside of Taiwan.

I could order one directly from BF but I'll get murdered on the shipping and duty.

Very ironic that I live in the absolute 'heart' of the bike manufacturing world and the bike I really want is being made in Oregon. :rolleyes:

Cheers:D

Driftwork, did you buy a bike? I am in Taipei for 2 weeks of work and I am thinking of buying a folding bike to bring home with me to Sweden. Not a Brompton, but something I could get for a good price here. Something made in Taiwan like the Flamingo. But then again it may be better to get a used one back home, if I can find one.

Just curious what you ended up with. Do you know of any good deals going on now, and/or any bike shop in Taipei I should visit?

Thanks!
/Mats

I'm holding out for a Bike Friday Tikit. For me, and because of the traveling I do, the Tikit is the best fit. The fact that it can be disassembled slightly and put into a suitcase plus the fact that it can be rolled when folded and, of course, its great ride, is the reason to buy it.

I've got to wait until I go back to Canada or the USA however, as BF in Asia is almost double the price.

So, I'll wait until I head back North America.

If you are keen to buy a bike in Taiwan, I would definitely go with MEZZO bike.

I was very very impressed with its ride (Better than Brompton for sure) and they are realtively inexpensive. I think its the best value for a good folding bike right now.

Flamingo just isn't worth it at the moment. They are not really producing many of the new aluminum frame folders.

Hi Driftwork,

Thanks for your reply. I just got back from my 2 weeks stay in Taiwan, and I brought a bike home with me! :thumb: After reading about different bikes on the Internet, and checking them out in Taipei bike shops I finally bought a Birdy LX for 47.500 TWD in the Living Mall bike shop (6th floor). It rides well and the components and build quality are very nice.

I mainly checked out Bromton style foldables, such as Ori C9, Ori M9, Flamingo and Birdy. But I also looked at bikes which folds sideways, such as Dahon, KHS, Giant, Flamingo etc. I never saw the Mezzo though.

I wanted small size when folded, decent ride, low weight and a good price. The Dahon and similar were too big when folded, and the chain was on the outside of the fold. The Ori was nice, but not as components seemed a bit entry level (e.g brakes), and the Flamingo was too heavy.

That said, I probably would have been satisfied with any of them, but I choose to spend the big bucks for the Birdy which impressed me the most. Although expensive in Taiwan, it is more than 50% more in Sweden. And the price for a used one in Taiwan was not much lower than for a new one, atleast not accoring to Yahoo auctions. So I think I got a good deal after all.

I changed brakepads to cool stops, added a front light, removable pedals (MKS promende), a cycle computer (w11) and a bike stand. I choose not to change the handles and to add bar ends. And no rack. Adding stuff is easybut you pay weight. Original weight is said to be 10.2 kg and I want to keep it at that. Back home in Sweden I have put on a back light which I already had since before.

I can recommend the bike shop in Living Mall. They are very friendly, patient and skilled.

And for any reader that is not in Taiwan I can really recommend a Taiwan visit. Mainly beacuse of the ever so friendly people. Taipei is a pretty ugly town at daytime, but that's ok. All wonderful smiles makes up for that :love:. I hope I will have a chance to go back some day soon.