Foo - Serious discussion about free will

Ok Foosters, it's time to don the thinking caps and put your brain to work (since I know you aren't doing that at work :notamused:). The question of the day is this:

Do we have free will?

I would love to say we do, that our actions are governed by nothing but our own minds, our own choices. To have anything else would be antithetical to human nature. To absolutely know that we are, in fact, not controlled by ourselves, but by some unseeable force, would be devastating. Why would we want to continue on as we do if our choices are not our own?

But here's the thing. We don't have free will.

I'll pose two ideas about why this is, and then we can let the discussion flow.

First point: Scientists have found that long before we are consciously aware of making a decision, our minds has already made it. (http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/04/is-free-will-an.html)
This means that if you "decide" to suddenly raise your right hand, up to 7 seconds before you've made that decision, your brain already knows you're going to do it. 7 seconds. Count it off. 7....6....5....4....3....2....1....Pow. That's a long time. How does your brain know before you do? What is controlling that? You can't consciously make a decision without being directed by your unconscience.

Second point: Every moment in time has happened, is happening, and will happen. (http://www.brocku.ca/MeadProject/Bergson/Bergson_1910/Bergson_1910_toc.html) Just as the Tramalfodorians in the book, The Slaughterhouse Five, tried to explain to Billy Pilgrim, time does not exist as we think of it, with a beginning, an end, and a middle. Every moment that happens will always happen and has always happened. If you don't believe me, think about this. Again, count to 7 and lift your right hand, and then go back to reading this....................There, did you do it? Good. Where did that moment go? The one you just had. Did it just disappear? What happened to it? Many people are proposing that nothing just vanishes, it stays in that moment. If that's true, then everything that comes after that moment always has been.

These two points, when combined, provided a pretty secure idea that we do not have free will. But even if we don't, it's still much better to pretend. ;)

The Universe is an incredibly complicated series of events that was set in motion roughly 13.5 billion years ago. The only controlling variables were the conditions in that singularity at that instant of creation. Everything since that moment and everything that will ever happen is the result of cause and effect. I guess that makes me a Determinist.

Come on UA, save that one for nerdforums.net and instead contemplate this picture of a lion riding a horse.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/02_01/LionBAR0602_468x393.jpg

Scientists are the number one cause of death in laboratory rats.

...But here's the thing. We don't have free will.

I'll pose two ideas about why this is, and then we can let the discussion flow.

First point: Scientists have found that long before we are consciously aware of making a decision, our minds has already made it. (http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/04/is-free-will-an.html)
This means that if you "decide" to suddenly raise your right hand, up to 7 seconds before you've made that decision, your brain already knows you're going to do it. 7 seconds. Count it off. 7....6....5....4....3....2....1....Pow. That's a long time. How does your brain know before you do? What is controlling that? You can't consciously make a decision without being directed by your unconscience.

Second point: Every moment in time has happened, is happening, and will happen. (http://www.brocku.ca/MeadProject/Bergson/Bergson_1910/Bergson_1910_toc.html) Just as the Tramalfodorians in the book, The Slaughterhouse Five, tried to explain to Billy Pilgrim, time does not exist as we think of it, with a beginning, an end, and a middle. Every moment that happens will always happen and has always happened. If you don't believe me, think about this. Again, count to 7 and lift your right hand, and then go back to reading this....................There, did you do it? Good. Where did that moment go? The one you just had. Did it just disappear? What happened to it? Many people are proposing that nothing just vanishes, it stays in that moment. If that's true, then everything that comes after that moment always has been.

These two points, when combined, provided a pretty secure idea that we do not have free will. But even if we don't, it's still much better to pretend. ;)


The Universe is an incredibly complicated series of events that was set in motion roughly 13.5 billion years ago. The only controlling variables were the conditions in that singularity at that instant of creation. Everything since that moment and everything that will ever happen is the result of cause and effect. I guess that makes me a Determinist.

UA - You're using fictional writing by a drug-addled individual as part of a scientific argument? :roflmao2:

What those scientists have found in the brain is the contemplation of the act, not the determination that the act will occur. There's a huge difference between correlation and causality. Obviously, your hand can't raise without contemplating it. duh! :rolleyes:

kila - as for you - I suppose you have some scientific proof for this bizarre notion?

I think Free Will (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnxkfLe4G74&feature=related) is a great song

Come on UA, save that one for nerdforums.net and instead contemplate this picture of a lion riding a horse.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/02_01/LionBAR0602_468x393.jpg

That is awesome

kila - as for you - I suppose you have some scientific proof for this bizarre notion?
I'm sure your equally unprovable notions of free will are as bizarre to me as mine are to you.

I enjoyed Fee Willy

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2007-11-29-free_willy.jpg

seriously...

I'm sure your equally unprovable notions of free will are as bizarre to me as mine are to you.

Innocent until proven guilty - so to speak is my POV.

Feel free to carry on in your automatonic state.

Live (www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYzGMxGq9rM)

I enjoyed Fee Willy

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2007-11-29-free_willy.jpg

seriously...

Okay, I LOL'd. I may have to go get a mouthful of milk so I can come back and read that again spit it all over my monitor.:roflmao2::roflmao2::roflmao2::thumb:

This means that if you "decide" to suddenly raise your right hand, up to 7 seconds before you've made that decision, your brain already knows you're going to do it. 7 seconds. Count it off. 7....6....5....4....3....2....1....Pow. That's a long time. How does your brain know before you do?

No, that's not what it means at all. My "brain" doesn't know before "I" do, because my brain is also me. I made that arm go up. There is no "I" separate and apart from my brain.

The Universe is an incredibly complicated series of events that was set in motion roughly 13.5 billion years ago. The only controlling variables were the conditions in that singularity at that instant of creation. Everything since that moment and everything that will ever happen is the result of cause and effect. I guess that makes me a Determinist.

I used to be in your camp where I believed everything was predetermined cause and effect and we only had the illusion of free will.

Then I read some quantum physics and came to understand that as things are looked at from an infinitesmally small level, there is no cause or effect, just random chance. So now I'm in the opposite camp- We have free will and only the illusion of a cause-effect universe.

In a deterministic world view, whether you believe in free will or not is already determined.

In a free will worldview, it's your choice which to believe.

On which is true, the answer is "Yes", but you're asking the wrong question...

No, that's not what it means at all. My "brain" doesn't know before "I" do, because my brain is also me. I made that arm go up. There is no "I" separate and apart from my brain.


+1

Nor is there any separation between "mind" and "brain". "You" are a vat of organic molecules exhibiting electro-chemical reactions. (As am "I".)

As Daniel Dennett pointed out a decade or two ago, the entire notion of the "Cartesian Theater", this place "inside the brain" (aka "the mind's eye") where things are "observed" and decisions are made prior to their execution is a complete & total myth.

I knew I was going to write that sentence 7 seconds ago!

You can choose from phantom fears, and kindness that can kill, I will choose a path thats clear I will choose freewill... rush

I used to be in your camp where I believed everything was predetermined cause and effect and we only had the illusion of free will.

Then I read some quantum physics and came to understand that as things are looked at from an infinitesmally small level, there is no cause or effect, just random chance. So now I'm in the opposite camp- We have free will and only the illusion of a cause-effect universe.
Perhaps the randomness of quantum mechanics only means that the cause of the effect isn't readily observable by us.

I don't know much about quantum physics, but it seems to me that there would be a difference between instinctual actions normally made throughout the course of one day and actions that take a lot of thought (ie. life choices). The decisions that UA speaks of in his first point seem more like they are involuntary motions that our bodies go through made either through habit or instinct. I think when it comes to decisions that we consciously think about, such as the decision to go to college and what major to pick we do have free will. Even when it comes to instinctual behavior, we can train ourselves to act differently. We have enough of a free will to make choices every day that will affect our happiness and health. We just need to have enough will power to go through with them.

I don't know much about quantum physics, but it seems to me that there would be a difference between actions normally made throughout the course of one day and actions that take a lot of thought (ie. life choices). The decisions that UA speaks of in his first point seem more like they are involuntary motions that our bodies go through made either through habit or instinct. I think when it comes to decisions that we consciously think about, such as the decision to go to college and what major to pick we do have free will. Even when it comes to instinctual behavior, we can train ourselves to act differently. We have enough of a free will to make choices every day that will affect our happiness and health. We just need to have enough will power to go through with them.

devil's advocate. Just how much does our past experience influence the decisions we make in the future? And if there is an influence, which there probably is, do we really have free will? Do we really have the ability to make decisions freely? Or are we just a summation of experiences resulting in a preprogrammed decision?

devil's advocate. Just how much does our past experience influence the decisions we make in the future? And if there is an influence, which there probably is, do we really have free will? Do we really have the ability to make decisions freely? Or are we just a summation of experiences resulting in a preprogrammed decision?

If my past experiences were dictating my life, then I would be like the rest of my family right now. Granted, I still think they affect my life today, how can past experiences not? They are what shape you as a person. Still, I think is it possible to make conscious decisions about your life every day. I don't think our lives are predestined and I don't believe in fate. Life is mostly random, but it is possible to shift the paradigm a bit by making specific decisions about how you want to live your life and sticking to them.

If my past experiences were dictating my life, then I would be like the rest of my family right now. Granted, I still think they affect my life today, how can past experiences not? They are what shape you as a person. Still, I think is it possible to make conscious decisions about your life every day. I don't think our lives are predestined and I don't believe in fate. Life is mostly random, but it is possible to shift the paradigm a bit by making specific decisions about how you want to live your life and sticking to them.

Right...your past experiences are still shaping your decisions. This does not mean everyone will be effected exactly the same, but will be effected. And because this is effecting your decisions now, are you really making these decisions out of free will?


*Brain exploded...be back later*

Quantum mechanics as applied to spirituality is a sort of new concept these days. It doesn't allow the laws of physics to be broken, but enters in the possibility of a scientific basis for what shamans and mystics have been doing for millennia. That is directing their lives through advanced inner visualization techniques. The miracles that are accomplished are not very theatrical, but, provided that the mental direction is there, one can literally change one's very chemistry. This is exceptionally useful in helping to eradicate negative emotional loops and in promoting self-healing. A concept whose time has come.

I'd call that free will.

I think I'm compromised in my thoughts. I'm watching Star Trek right now. I'll be back when I've had a chance to clear my head.

Right...your past experiences are still shaping your decisions. This does not mean everyone will be effected exactly the same, but will be effected. And because this is effecting your decisions now, are you really making these decisions out of free will?


*Brain exploded...be back later*

I am shaping my experiences. My decisions of the past are just that. They are in the past. I am who I am right now. I make decisions based on who I am and what I think is best for me. Yes, I have free will to shape who I want to be in the future by making decisions now.

Come on UA, save that one for nerdforums.net and instead contemplate this picture of a lion riding a horse.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/02_01/LionBAR0602_468x393.jpg

How do they get the lion to not eat the horse?

Also, can the lion steer the horse on his own, or does the horse have free will?

Determinism cannot be falsified, that should tell you something. Saying you don't believe in determinism because you are programmed that way, is just like saying you don't believe in astrology because you're a Leo. Also, I'm really not getting why we have no free will just because we are bound by cause&effect? I mean, yes, I have to eat stuff that can be chemically digested by my body without killing me, but I still have a choice between McDonald's, Chinese, Italian or Ramen.

Determinism cannot be falsified, that should tell you something. Saying you don't believe in determinism because you are programmed that way, is just like saying you don't believe in astrology because you're a Leo. Also, I'm really not getting why we have no free will just because we are bound by cause&effect? I mean, yes, I have to eat stuff that can be chemically digested by my body without killing me, but I still have a choice between McDonald's, Chinese, Italian or Ramen.

Do you? If your allergic to msg, that narrows that choice down. So where's the free will?

I know you guys are going to think Im a nut but I figure everyone that knows me already thinks that anyways :twitchy: so here it goes, we havnt had free will since we became "civilized." We have been controlled (in one way or another) by religion and government for so long that it all seems normal. These days it seems that government has had its fill of religion and is trying to "get rid" of religions control over us to have it "all to themselves" but I think, and again this is just from what Ive learned, that come 2012 we just my become free from both religion and government. Ill be honest and tell you that I dont know how or why but all things point to that year for the "end of times" which again from what Ive read means the release of the human mind from those that want nothing more than to control us. :) OK, commence with the name calling :lol: ;)

yeah...you're a nut....but you're not the only one in here. :D

So, lemme get this strait, ilikebikes, cuz I'm confused. You are saying that humans have free will only when they are not under the influence of a government or religion? Just wondering.

yeah...you're a nut....but you're not the only one in here. :D

I feel so much better knowing Im in a can of Planters!

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/stumpyspic/mixednuts.jpg

I know you guys are going to think Im a nut but I figure everyone that knows me already thinks that anyways :twitchy: so here it goes, we havnt had free will since we became "civilized." We have been controlled (in one way or another) by religion and government for so long that it all seems normal. These days it seems that government has had its fill of religion and is trying to "get rid" of religions control over us to have it "all to themselves" but I think, and again this is just from what Ive learned, that come 2012 we just my become free from both religion and government. Ill be honest and tell you that I dont know how or why but all things point to that year for the "end of times" which again from what Ive read means the release of the human mind from those that want nothing more than to control us. :) OK, commence with the name calling :lol: ;)

In some ways, I agree with you about how much religion has over the minds of people. This kind of power manifests itself, every day in the papers. Still, each individual who is shaping the course of their life based on their religion, has choices they have to make each and every day about how they want to live. This is manifesting itself as well. You have to make the choice to get out of bed each morning, you have to make the choice on what you are eating for breakfast, and yes, you even have the choice to believe in whatever religion you want to. It can be hard to get out of a religious mindset, but that is even possible. The government puts restrictions on our personal liberties within our society and culture as we know it. We still have the free will to either act within those restrictions or outside of them and that goes for religious restrictions as well.

So, lemme get this strait, ilikebikes, cuz I'm confused. You are saying that humans have free will only when they are not under the influence of a government or religion? Just wondering.

Yes sir, everything you do is because the government or religion told you that its the way it is. But remember, thats just my opinion :thumb:

Determinism cannot be falsified, that should tell you something.

Determinism cannot be falsified (I assume you mean proven false).

Free will can't be proven false either.

So......your point is?

Yes sir, everything you do is because the government or religion told you that its the way it is. But remember, thats just my opinion :thumb:

okay. Just making sure I understood you correctly.

Also, I'm really not getting why we have no free will just because we are bound by cause&effect? I mean, yes, I have to eat stuff that can be chemically digested by my body without killing me, but I still have a choice between McDonald's, Chinese, Italian or Ramen.
Take the Universe from the moment of its creation to the moment Bob stubs his toe on a step. I think we can agree that there's no way you can influence the past. So you have this whole block of time for the last ~13.5 billion years that neither you nor any other internal force can alter because it's already happened.

Play that ~13.5 billion years over and over again without altering anything. Would each iteration yield the same results of Bob stubbing his toe as if you're were playing a recording?

If yes, then why would the future be any different? Does time have different properties when you're traveling forward or backward from our perspective? If you can't change the past, then why do you think you can change the future?

If no and things will alter from iteration to iteration, there will be some instances where Bob doesn't stub his toe. Then where does this variation come from? Bob's will? Random quantum variations? God?

I go with the simplest answer: Nothing will change. Bob will always stub his toe no matter how many times you rewind the Universe to the initial conditions.

Do you? If your allergic to msg, that narrows that choice down. So where's the free will?

The presence of consequences does not mean the absence of free will. If you're fatally allergic to peanuts, it doesn't mean that eating a peanut is not an available free will choice, just that it might be the last one you ever make.

The presence of consequences does not mean the absence of free will. If you're fatally allergic to peanuts, it doesn't mean that eating a peanut is not an available free will choice, just that it might be the last one you ever make.

well stated. I am assuming rational decisions though. chosing a peanut if you know you are fatally allergic would not be a rational choice.

I agree with UA. Ultimately everything is determined--the number of variables may approach
the infinite but because they are in fact finite and outcomes are the result of existing sequences of cause and effect we cannot ultimately control outcomes. Our acts of choice are merely the result of existing variables and sequences of cause and effect extending into the past.

But choosing what bike to ride or video game to play or what to say on the webs is still fun.

This isn't to say that we don't experience our acts as choices--this is only to say that
we cannot see why our "choices" are in fact predetermined, thus we experience our acts
as choices rather than consequences of existing causes.

In some ways, I agree with you about how much religion has over the minds of people. This kind of power manifests itself, every day in the papers. Still, each individual who is shaping the course of their life based on their religion, has choices they have to make each and every day about how they want to live. This is manifesting itself as well. You have to make the choice to get out of bed each morning, you have to make the choice on what you are eating for breakfast, and yes, you even have the choice to believe in whatever religion you want to. It can be hard to get out of a religious mindset, but that is even possible. The government puts restrictions on our personal liberties within our society and culture as we know it. We still have the free will to either act within those restrictions or outside of them and that goes for religious restrictions as well.

I responded to your post but Ive no clue where it went?! :lol: I posted it but it didnt post? Ill try to keep this one simple :thumb: each individual who is shaping the course of their life based on their religion, has LIMITED choices they have to make each and every day about how they CAN live. and although we still have the free will to either act within those (government) restrictions or outside of them one will quickly be labled by others (thanks to the government) "communist!" and will hear "Either love her or leave her!" "If you dont like the RULES go back to you country!"

As I understand it UA is not debating the presence or absence
of political or religious freedom.

He is considering whether or not
any action or choice is actually free in the sense that it is not
determined in advance and various choices or outcomes
have equal probability of being chosen, within the latitude of our
freedom. The alternate view is that we in fact do not have
any real latitude to choose anything because the act of choice
is tied to pre-existing determining variables.

This is thus about free will as an act, not the latitude of activities
that may be performed within a given state.

Words are important. What exactly is Free Will? In essence, how you define it is what your conclusion is. IOW, we're playing a word game.

If you have taken a couple philosophy classes, it's time to read Richard Rorty. You can start here..
http://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Mirror-Nature-Richard-Rorty/dp/0691020167/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228514677&sr=1-2

HMM-HMMMMMMM!
http://world-o-crap.com/poppinfresh.jpg

Yes, you have free will. As to your point 1, my brain didn't know (7 seconds beforehand) that I within a half second I was going to see this thread and excercise my free will not to raise my hand to test the 7 second theory.

I also agree that humans do not have free will. Neither do animals, plants or micro-organisms. We as a higher rational being, however, can create the assumption of having a free will; that our choices and actions are the result of purely independent thought.

Nevertheless, the inevitability of social norms and biological processes will ensure that our choices and actions are only elements of a set of choices and acitons that are much larger than any of us.

Without much further thought, I can also agree with moments having continuous existence. I believe that every moment, consciously or not, has an influence on creating the future ahead. Thus, previous moments influence future choices, which also ensures that every action is not from pure independent thought.

Didn't philosophers beat this one to death?

Perhaps the randomness of quantum mechanics only means that the cause of the effect isn't readily observable by us.

Try that argument if you are ever tried for a crime. :lol:

...Didn't philosophers beat this one to death?

Philosophers should be thankful we haven't followed our impulses and beaten them to death. :p

Do you? If your allergic to msg, that narrows that choice down. So where's the free will?
I'm allergic to poison and inordinate amounts of radiation, but I can still eat all the nonpoisonous, nonradioactive stuff I want. I find this entire debate a Trojan Horse for inserting the whole God-thing where it doesn't belong anyway. I simply don't see where one makes the logical leap to say "Cause&Effect proves Determinism." Also, we could get really stupid and start to bring up truly irrelevant mind-blowers like Schroedinger's Cat. Keep your bong handy.

As I understand it UA is not debating the presence or absence
of political or religious freedom.

He is considering whether or not
any action or choice is actually free in the sense that it is not
determined in advance and various choices or outcomes
have equal probability of being chosen, within the latitude of our
freedom. The alternate view is that we in fact do not have
any real latitude to choose anything because the act of choice
is tied to pre-existing determining variables.

This is thus about free will as an act, not the latitude of activities
that may be performed within a given state.

Being that both religions and governments do indeed inhibit our actions, choices, and freewill (as an act) I dont see what the problem is.