Foo - best place to buy a lap top right now?

i picked some foo brain on a new windows desktop some months ago but was putting off purchase till the economy settles down...now turns out i need a laptop asap that won't break the piggy bank...

where you y'all go for a good deal? I'm a bit skeered of used laptops but would consider it from a place with some form of warranty...

I need a decent HD (250GB min is fine, 500GB is better), fast processor would be great, maxed out memory and basic CD/DVD drive w/burner.

We have XP (no vista thanks) but I am always having issues not wanting to pay for Office Professional (about $400 and all I need it for is Access:notamused:)...what about Open Office??

any thoughts?

Dell? Lenovo? Acer?

I alway go to Cnet when I am looking at computers, see what they like, and then go from there.

i picked some foo brain on a new windows desktop some months ago but was putting off purchase till the economy settles down...now turns out i need a laptop asap that won't break the piggy bank...

where you y'all go for a good deal? I'm a bit skeered of used laptops but would consider it from a place with some form of warranty...

I need a decent HD (250GB min is fine, 500GB is better), fast processor would be great, maxed out memory and basic CD/DVD drive w/burner.

We have XP (no vista thanks) but I am always having issues not wanting to pay for Office Professional (about $400 and all I need it for is Access:notamused:)...what about Open Office??

any thoughts?

Dell? Lenovo? Acer?

On open office, all our depts here at work use it without any problems. However I don't use Access so I don't how it compares.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834114534

Nice laptop. I like Toshiba. From what you said you wanted, this will do the trick, but unless you XP is 64 bit, you're not going to see all of the RAM.

I've been hearing Toshiba or Lenovo are the way to go (reliability).....

here's the thing - I need one fast....don't have a lot of dough....


I have the XP disc from our mid/late 90s machine...Home Version w/Service Pack 1 (for which I am thinking you just download free Service Pack 3 updates, yes?)


I was hoping to maximize my bang-per-buck here, so wondering if I can find a laptop without an OS installed - and would that even save me any $$$? I do know I have no interest in using Vista. I would be 'downgrading' to XP in any case.

also - any tips on whether to buy used/refurbished and where a reliable source is for that? If it's a lot cheaper I'd consider it but if we're talking $100 or so I'd rather get new w/warranty....

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834114534

Nice laptop. I like Toshiba. From what you said you wanted, this will do the trick, but unless you XP is 64 bit, you're not going to see all of the RAM.

this does look pretty sweet btw - thanks Hickey:thumb:

http://philipp.funkensturm.de/dateien/png/apple_chrome.png

already got one.

want a windows machine/laptop as a 2nd computer.

http://philipp.funkensturm.de/dateien/png/apple_chrome.png

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff148/Hickeydog/apple_chrome.png


fify

now, now

I like my Mac just fine.

I am just tired of having one computer - when/if there is a problem, you;re screwed, even if temporarily...kinda like a two-car family with only one car....- sorry I meant bike.

Until very recently my needs for a laptop were slim to none, but since I want a second machine anyway, and could use a laptop I would just as soon have a Windoze thingy.

I'm leaning towards that Toshiba at New egg....found it much cheaper at Corcuit City but w/ half the HD and only 3GBRAM

Not sure if our XP is 32 or 64 bit...I believe it;s 64.

lap top....analog.

http://hitherandyarn.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/lap-cat-revised.jpg

lap top....analog.

http://hitherandyarn.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/lap-cat-revised.jpg

Those are good too, I had one last night:D

they overheat though. Just like the digital versions.

I just defrag the furballs once in a while...keeps the processors from overhoarking

already got one.

want a windows machine/laptop as a 2nd computer.

i don't understand your logic. why use a completely different system?

i don't understand your logic. why use a completely different system?

'Best of both worlds' approach.

I was told by mac people I would never miss my windows and the apple could do everything the Windows machine could, only better. As I say I am very happy with our Mac purchase but I have found that statement to not be true. I also like some things better about the Mac, and other things I prefer Windows' GUI....


Ultimately I know we could just use Parallels or a similar method to run XP on our Mac alongside OSX but for now I need a second machine/portability anyway so no harm in having that Toshiba.

About your laptop needs: Don't bother with RAM or HD size. Both are easily replaced/expanded (if you can patch a tube, you can replace a HD) and usually even cheaper than the store does it (if you buy an apple...don't even bother unless you want to pay 300% of the price).

Moreover, if you want bang for your buck, don't get an Apple. No matter what people say, they are expensive, although less so these days.

Furthermore, there is no silver bullet as to what is cheapest. It all depends on what you want and who makes it.

There are some guidelines though:

Acer consumer: Just don't do it...really, don't!
Lenovo: Great if you're going to lug it all over the place, if not, too expensive
Dell: Good support, decent hardware and good prices...don't expect it to last forever though
HP-Compaq business: Great build quality, though no Lenovo. Good support, also for Linux

With others I have little experience.

Again, you should ask yourself what you want and what that entails. Will it be a laptop which will travel a lot with you, or will it be one which just sits there and is occasionally transported to the couch for cosy photo viewing? Will you work on it while travelling or will you always use it close to a wallsocket?

Again, if you know what you want to do with it, you can find a good brand to go with it. Then you can find where you can buy it the cheapest. If you really have no clue, Dell is the way to go. As said before, good allrounders.

Finally, taking the OS off usually doesn't save you that much, if anything at all...don't make it a dealbreaker.

Thanks!

I would have gone dell a year ago but I have heard so many bad things recently I got scared off.

this would NOT go with me everywhere. I'd bring to about two monthly meetings in my water proof messenger bag (short 7 mile commute) and maybe bring when I fly for vaca (about 3-6x /year).

I replaced the RAM to max supported spec on our iMac no prob but wasn't sure how hard that would be with whatever laptop I wound up buying. 4 Gb RAM is plenty for me.....

I have a 320 GB external drive I'd be using with this laptop so no need to have a huge HD but I'd like a 320 if I can afford it (eg, under $1k).

I probably would like a long life battery but for my uses the plain jane OEM should be adequate - I hope.

Throw in the DVD burner and I am good to go.

Does anyone know how hard it would be to retrofit an updated USB card/sockets for that Toshiba once they release 3.0? I hoped to wait it out but at this point we're looking at late '09, yes?

One nice thing about our Mac is Firewire 800; but can't have everything, I realize.

I use Open Office and the only issues I had were some formatting ones in power point moving between OO and Office on a PC....pretty similar to problems you have with office between PC and Apple.

If you have XP, you can get SuSE on a Lenovo to save some $. I didn't like SuSE but Ubuntu has been working out great.

In that case, I'd go with a sturdy dell. Try one from their business line. Be sure that it has a single 2GB chip instead of 2 1GB chips.

Going with the standard option battery and an option for an extension could be nice, it gives you some extra options.

I don't know about the pricing or quality of the consumer Lenovo's, I fall right into the market for pro laptops:'( (Very expensive).

About the Firewire 800, don't worry so much. The USB interface on a Mac is apparently very poor, the PC ones do a lot better (hearsay, I never worked with Firewire)

Oh yeah, go with a 15.4" screen or something around that.

Does anyone know how hard it would be to retrofit an updated USB card/sockets for that Toshiba once they release 3.0? I hoped to wait it out but at this point we're looking at late '09, yes?

One nice thing about our Mac is Firewire 800; but can't have everything, I realize.No way to update USB to 3.0 since the changes are in hardware. You can probably get PC-cards with USB3 if you need it. Firewire's the way to go if you want the ultimate in throughput. Even Firewire-400 puts USB2.0 to shame, so FW800 will keep you ahead for quite some time.

Circuit City was blowing out a lot of laptops at deep discounts. The best laptops, IMO are Sonys with metal or carbon-fibre cases. Circuit City had a lot of those when they started the going-out-of-biz sale, but the Sonys all went the first couple of days. At the end, they where clearing out the leftover HP/Compaqs at 50-80% OFF.

The amount of RAM you really need is based upon the OS you're using. Vista takes up 1gb all by itself so you'll need at least 2gb to run any software. Mac OSX consumes about 300-500mb, so you can actually do a lot with 1gb. Best scenario is to run a lightweight LINUX variation which only takes up 150-200mb. In which case, all you need is 512mb to be comparable to a 2gb Windows machine.

If OS X is what you're using now anyway, go with the Apple notebook. From what I've heard, Parallels works quite well, and by going that route, you don't have to be subjected to Windows' idiocy all of the time. :) Plus, I believe you can run one or more instances of Windows if you wish, and each of them is in their own sandbox, so you can blow them away if they become crusty and/or infected.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the XP disc you have likely won't work on another computer

Another thing to keep in mind is that the XP disc you have likely won't work on another computer

maybe ...maybe not...but you're right - only one way to be sure.....

I'm personally a big fan of asus machines. Newegg has a really decently spec'ed one for relatively cheap:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834220461

VMware Fusion (http://www.vmware.com/products/fusion) is actually better than Parallels. Well, both functionally the same in that you can run Windows on a Mac, but Fusion 2 is faster. Although no longer free like the previous version of Fusion. Try the 30-day trial download for free and see how it works.

You'll also need WinXP+SP3. The SP1 and earlier versions had a buggy USB driver that didn't allow full USB 2.0 speeds on computers with the faster controllers (both Mac & PC). But it'll still work at 1.1 speeds.

VMware Fusion (http://www.vmware.com/products/fusion) is actually better than Parallels. Well, both functionally the same in that you can run Windows on a Mac, but Fusion 2 is faster. Although no longer free like the previous version of Fusion. Try the 30-day trial download for free and see how it works.

You'll also need WinXP+SP3. The SP1 and earlier versions had a buggy USB driver that didn't allow full USB 2.0 speeds on computers with the faster controllers (both Mac & PC). But it'll still work at 1.1 speeds.

SP3 - free download update, no?

Yeah, you can download it from Microsoft here: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=5b33b5a8-5e76-401f-be08-1e1555d4f3d4&DisplayLang=en

I usually make a new install CD by slipstreaming with nLite the SP3 along with all hardware-drivers needed and configuration options like network settings, user accounts and passwords, etc. Then I'll have a CD that I just boot the computer from and walk away. Come back 30-minutes later and it's installed and ready to go; no need to babysit the install.

What do you need the laptop for? You may not need uber performance like you think you do. This is really important in your selection process.

I always recommend IBM (now Lenovo) Thinkpads and Dell Latitudes; those are both solid machines with great performance for a now reasonable budget.

HP's middle-end laptops and higher are great machines; avoid their low-end like the plague. They are built horribly and aren't designed to really last.

Apple's offerings are very good as well, and their laptops are engineered amazingly. I would seriously consider them in your selection (if your budget supports it, though killer deals can be found with them as well).

If you want killer deals, try eBay or Pricewatch (but make sure you look for legit vendors in the latter). I'll see if I can get you some links.

i don't understand your logic. why use a completely different system?

He probably could get away with using a Macintosh-only network if his other computer uses an Intel processor. With that, he could run Boot Camp and install Windows that way, but it gets cumbersome (like any other virtual OS replacement).

What do you need the laptop for? You may not need uber performance like you think you do. This is really important in your selection process.

I always recommend IBM (now Lenovo) Thinkpads and Dell Latitudes; those are both solid machines with great performance for a now reasonable budget.

HP's middle-end laptops and higher are great machines; avoid their low-end like the plague. They are built horribly and aren't designed to really last.

Apple's offerings are very good as well, and their laptops are engineered amazingly. I would seriously consider them in your selection (if your budget supports it, though killer deals can be found with them as well).

If you want killer deals, try eBay or Pricewatch (but make sure you look for legit vendors in the latter). I'll see if I can get you some links.
Thanks Mr. C. I am gonna be taking minutes at meetings once or twice a month and I am getting sick of doing it with a pen.

I don't want a cheesy budget laptop but don't need anything crazy either. I don't play games etc.....I might watch a video clip on news sites or you tube, and listen to mp3s,,,,,nothing extravagant. I don't watch movies or anything on my computer.

Heck, for that kind of use, you might as well pick up one of these for $269:

Asus eeePC 701 at Target:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ks-doKMwL._AA260_.jpg (http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/175-0963226-1541246?asin=B001EXE5MG&AFID=Shopping&LNM=B001EXE5MG|ASUS_7"_Eee_8GB_PC_Netbook_Computer_with_Linux_Galaxy_Black&ref=tgt_adv_XSC10001)

Or the 9" screen version for $299:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413pPQHoF0L._AA260_.jpg (http://www.target.com/ASUS-8-9-Netbook-Computer-Linux/dp/B001E1OQL8/sr=1-13/qid=1230356962/ref=sr_1_13/175-0963226-1541246?ie=UTF8&index=target&rh=k%3Aasus&page=1)

My wife carries it around in her purpose and uses it to check emails and write notes wherever she goes. I remote back to my home or office computer if I need something that I've got there. I've got a Sprint Broadband 3G card in it so I have internet connection anywhere there's cellular service; don't have to rely on someone's WiFi nearby.

this is another option I just saw (advice & opinions most welcome, please!!):

http://www.macmall.com/macmall/shop/detail.asp?Redir=1&description=Apple-15.4%22+MacBook+Pro+Glossy+Screen+-+Intel+Core+2+Duo+2.2GHz%2C+2GB+Memory%2C+120GB+Hard+Drive+Notebook-MacBook+Pro&dpno=7256720

$1300, and only 120GB HD, though that should be okay for me as I am using this with a 320GB external.

we have a new iMac and it is backed up to a 1 TB Time Capsule. we're thinking maybe the extra dough for a macbook pro is the way to go, so if the desktop goes south for whatever reason, we could hook up the laptop to timecapsule and retrieve files if needed (assuming a 120GB machine can read all that - our iMac has about 800GB still free, so about 100GB used).

The key to this for me would be to use either Parallels (his mac mall offer has a rebate for Parallels) or VMWare Fusion because I absolutely need to run windows on whatever I wind up buying.

The Macbook also has firewire 800 which is great as I would be using the 320GB external on a regular basis.

I am looking at $1300 for MacBook Pro w/120GB HD and 2GB RAM, vs. $799 for a Toshiba Satellite w/320GB HD and 4 GB RAM......both with Core 2 Duo and 15" screens.

I know I can prolly get the 2GB memory sticks online and max out the MacBook's RAM....If I wanted to eventually go to the max 320GB HD, is this easily doable?.

VMware Fusion (http://www.vmware.com/products/fusion) is actually better than Parallels. Well, both functionally the same in that you can run Windows on a Mac, but Fusion 2 is faster. Although no longer free like the previous version of Fusion. Try the 30-day trial download for free and see how it works.

You'll also need WinXP+SP3. The SP1 and earlier versions had a buggy USB driver that didn't allow full USB 2.0 speeds on computers with the faster controllers (both Mac & PC). But it'll still work at 1.1 speeds.

Mac Mall has a rebate offer - Fusion 1 for only $15, and you get free upgrade to Fusion 2

Heck, for that kind of use, you might as well pick up one of these for $269:

Asus eeePC 701 at Target:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ks-doKMwL._AA260_.jpg (http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/175-0963226-1541246?asin=B001EXE5MG&AFID=Shopping&LNM=B001EXE5MG|ASUS_7"_Eee_8GB_PC_Netbook_Computer_with_Linux_Galaxy_Black&ref=tgt_adv_XSC10001)

Or the 9" screen version for $299:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413pPQHoF0L._AA260_.jpg (http://www.target.com/ASUS-8-9-Netbook-Computer-Linux/dp/B001E1OQL8/sr=1-13/qid=1230356962/ref=sr_1_13/175-0963226-1541246?ie=UTF8&index=target&rh=k%3Aasus&page=1)

My wife carries it around in her purpose and uses it to check emails and write notes wherever she goes. I remote back to my home or office computer if I need something that I've got there. I've got a Sprint Broadband 3G card in it so I have internet connection anywhere there's cellular service; don't have to rely on someone's WiFi nearby.


My Aunt has the 9" version of that EEE PC, and it's quite the computer, for how small it is. It packs a 160 gig hhd, 1 gig ram, runs XP like a desktop, and has a good display. The only problems are the mouse pad is very cramped, along with the keyboard, and the batter life isn't that great. But for the price, you get one heck of a computer.

If OS X is what you're using now anyway, go with the Apple notebook. From what I've heard, Parallels works quite well, and by going that route, you don't have to be subjected to Windows' idiocy all of the time. :) Plus, I believe you can run one or more instances of Windows if you wish, and each of them is in their own sandbox, so you can blow them away if they become crusty and/or infected.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the XP disc you have likely won't work on another computer

so - i have two versions of XP from our old computers:

Home Edition, Version 2002, Service Pack 1
(has disc with number code sticker that we never put on the tower)

Professional, Version 2002, Service Pack 2
(no sticker - may have thrown that out with the old tower, but we have the shrink wrap that was on the booklet & disc with a long number.....
The booklet cover says 'for distribution with a new Dell PC only')

any clue as to whether or not these will work with a Mac using VMware?

Heck, for that kind of use, you might as well pick up one of these for $269:


My wife carries it around in her purpose and uses it to check emails and write notes wherever she goes. I remote back to my home or office computer if I need something that I've got there. I've got a Sprint Broadband 3G card in it so I have internet connection anywhere there's cellular service; don't have to rely on someone's WiFi nearby.

We have debated this before, but I am going to throw it out there. For $350 you can get a MSI Wind with similar specs and a case, trackpad, and buttons that are better designed, plus a 10" screen. The next version is going to have a SIM slot/built in 3G.

so - i have two versions of XP from our old computers:

Home Edition, Version 2002, Service Pack 1
(has disc with number code sticker that we never put on the tower)

Professional, Version 2002, Service Pack 2
(no sticker - may have thrown that out with the old tower, but we have the shrink wrap that was on the booklet & disc with a long number.....
The booklet cover says 'for distribution with a new Dell PC only')

any clue as to whether or not these will work with a Mac using VMware?

Does the sticker look like any of these (http://www.microsoft.com/resources/howtotell/content.aspx?displaylang=en&pg=coa)? If the long code is a 25 number/letter string separated by hyphens, that is a CD key and should work.

Pedantic licensing 101: Both of those copies appear to be OEM copies, assuming they came with the machine (as opposed to buying a retail copy separately). Neither of which have a license which can be moved from a machine to another machine (or a VM.)

However, the the pro copy should activate using that CD key in a VM. Make sure to back up the VMWare hard disk files so if you later hose the XP VM, you are just a file copy away from that back without having to reactivate.

I am also guessing the copies are true XP CDs, as opposed to just boot images that are only for a certain make and model of machine that just dump a certain image.

If needed, you can hit NewEgg for a copy of XP (pro (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116515) or home (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116511)) for System Builders which is the OEM edition. This will happily work in a VM.

For VM software on a Mac, I personally use VMWare Fusion. It is compatible with all the tons of VMWare appliances out there. I then store the VM disk files in a Disk Image sparse bundle. This way, Time Machine only needs to copy the 8MB bands that have changed as opposed to the complete VMWare disk image.

so - i have two versions of XP from our old computers:

Home Edition, Version 2002, Service Pack 1
(has disc with number code sticker that we never put on the tower)

Professional, Version 2002, Service Pack 2
(no sticker - may have thrown that out with the old tower, but we have the shrink wrap that was on the booklet & disc with a long number.....
The booklet cover says 'for distribution with a new Dell PC only')

any clue as to whether or not these will work with a Mac using VMware?Yeah, they'll work just fine. The simplest way is to capture & virtualize your existing Windows PCs. Download the free VMware Converter (http://www.vmware.com/download/converter/) and install it into your Windows PC. Then run it to create a virtual-machine that'll run inside VMware Fusion:

1. start VMware converter
2. click on "Convert Machine", then Next -> Next
3. pick default "Physical Computer" for conversion source -> Next
4. pick "This Local Machine" as source, -> Next
5. pick the hard-drives volumes you want to capture, it's possible to expand your hard-drive size here if you need -> Next -> Next
6. pick destination of "Other Virtual Machine" -> Next
7. select a folder-name for the virtual-machine destination
8. select a destination for the VM, pick a shared-folder OUTSIDE of the current Windows machine, like the Mac that's running VMware Fusion. I usually share a folder called "VirtualMachines" so I can run them from other hosts, then -> Next
9. turn ON options of "allow virtual disk files to expand" and "split disk into 2gb files" to create a sparse disk -> Next
10. pick your network options, set network-type to bridge, and turn OFF "connect at power on" to prevent your virtual-machine from having the same IP as your real one or else you'll have network problems. After you boot up the virtual version, you can set it to a different IP. -> NEXT
11. turn ON options of "Install VMware Tools" and "Remove all SysRestore chkpnts"
12. Finally hit NEXT to start the capture/virtualization option.

After that's done, you can then start VMware Fusion and add a new virtual-machine by browsing your disk and selecting the VMX file of the virtual-machine you captured.

This virtual-cloning is a simple way to transfer an existing WinXP installation to a new computer without worrying about key-codes and re-installing. I usually have virgin-installs of VMs I use most, like Win2k, Win2k3, Win2k8, etc. that I can start from for new VMs. Takes about 30-sec to copy the VM folder and deploy a new VM from scratch. Certainly beats booting from CDs and babysitting the installer for 30-40 minutes.

Very good instructions on a P2V (physical to virtual) machine move. The only hitch I can see is that XP will want to reactivate, and depending on a number of factors, this reactivation can go without issue, or one has to call MS to have it hand-activated over the phone.

Damn, forgot about activation as I only ever use VLK versions of everything. Usually re-activating on new hardware goes fairly smoothly. Although I think MS has stopped allowing WinXP re-activations, both automatically or via phone. Well, there are ways to disable the hardware-check that initiates the activation anyway.

This has been a big stumbling block with MS and virtualization. If I virtualize 40 servers onto a Dell PowerEdge and dump the old ones in the bin. MS still claims I'm now running 80 servers and needs to purchase 40 new Windows Server licenses.

I have had so many activation nightmares already....ugh

here (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductComparePrint.aspx?SubCategory=32&CompareItemList=N82E16834114535%2cN82E16834114605&N=50001259%2040000032) is another option - comparing these two Toshibas....any thoughts?

same price....one has a 16" screen, higher resolution but is also a pound heavier (5#+ vs. 6#+). The smaller (15.4") screen model also has supported RAM up to 8GB (the $799 is for 4GB on either)...there's a few other differences but not sure if there are significant advantages to be had or not.....

Isn't that kinda overkill for taking minutes of meetings?

Isn't that kinda overkill for taking minutes of meetings?

yes. But overkill is my middle name

Damn, forgot about activation as I only ever use VLK versions of everything. Usually re-activating on new hardware goes fairly smoothly. Although I think MS has stopped allowing WinXP re-activations, both automatically or via phone. Well, there are ways to disable the hardware-check that initiates the activation anyway.

This has been a big stumbling block with MS and virtualization. If I virtualize 40 servers onto a Dell PowerEdge and dump the old ones in the bin. MS still claims I'm now running 80 servers and needs to purchase 40 new Windows Server licenses.

MS's VLK licenses are annoying in that regard. If I want to use VLK license media, I have to buy the volume license, and I have to have every machine running the volume licensed OS be licensed for an OEM copy of Windows. If I build a box, I end up buying an OEM copy of Vista, slapping the sticker on the side of the box, and shelving the packaging.

I also am lucky enough to have a VLK license for XP, so I can have a Boot Camp partition on my Mac and access it either directly by booting into it, or just running VMWare Fusion.

I really hope Microsoft ditches activation altogether in Windows 7, or at least makes it more reasonable (such as what they have done with Office 2007). Activation does nothing to help license compliance. BSA's big hammer and legions of attorneys already ensure that any businesses that have any will to survive keep very close control of licensing anyway, and for personal use, the pirates crack of bypass it via whatever the hack of the day is.

This is why companies are sticking with XP. You don't need a KMS server, you don't need to keep activating your clients every 180 days, you don't need to activate your KMS server to keep activating your clients every 180 days. You make an XP corporate image, and even though the tools for making it suck compared to Vista's WIM tools, you install it, and have it run, and focus on other problems. The fact that Microsoft doesn't understand this is one thing that is causing their market share to slip.

I'm so tired of the licensing stuff, it makes it almost worth it to recommend Macs for businesses in some cases.