Advocacy & Safety - Hybred Cars

Who makes the best hybrid car? How much should I expect to pay?

Not knowing what is important to you, how can anyone answer what is best for you? To find out how much you can expect to pay, might I suggest Google?

Toyote Prius is about 25,000 bucks, Honda Civic Hybrid is about 20,000, Honda Insight is about 17-19,000

Tax benefits too for such vehicles - unless tax laws change next year.

Why waste your money on a car? Just get panniers and ride your bike everywhere.

I think that he does...Maybe he is looking for one if he needs to drive far outside the city, which is the onlything i would want a car for.

The Insight is a two-seat "runabout". The Civic is a sedan, mostly indistinguishable from the conventional-gasoline Civic. The Prius is a five-door hatchback. Well, the newest one, anyway; the previous models were sedans. For my money, the only one worth considering is the Prius, just for its body configuration. The primary reason I own a car is for those times when I have to haul a lot of stuff. Sedans just don't do that as well as hatchbacks. Ideally, someone should come out with hybrid that's the size/configuration of, say, a Toyota Matrix, or even a Ford Focus or VW Jetta Wagon.

Personally, I'm jonesing for a Jetta Wagon Diesel, so I can burn biodiesel in it.

Oh, and the three "hybrids" aren't really hybrids, because they still only take one kind of external power, namely, gasoline. A true hybrid allows you to "refuel" from different sources. If you could charge, say, a Prius battery by plugging it in any time you're not driving it, you wouldn't need to pump as much gasoline into it, and it would be a true hybrid. Still, it's a start.

The problem with these cars is that you have to "Plug" them in the wall. This site www.hybridcars.com has some good information on hybrid cars in general. You really need a house with an indoor garage if these cars are really going to go mainstream.

If you can move to a location that has better bus and rail transport, it could save you the 20K or more for the hybrid. According to the site I posted above, the battery will last about 120K miles and you'll have to get a special mechanic who can repair these things. I guess with all the money you'll be saving on fuel will go to the mechanic come repair time.

My electric car cost the State of New Jersey 1.2 billion dollars. It's called a lightrail and only 8 blocks away from my door. There will be no hybrid car for me. ;-)

I heard that it costs about $40,000 to build a Toyota Prius while it's sold only for $20,000, to promote the environmental consciousness.

The problem with these cars is that you have to "Plug" them in the wall. This site www.hybridcars.com has some good information on hybrid cars in general. You really need a house with an indoor garage if these cars are really going to go mainstream. Huh??!?!!? None of these cars plug into the wall. The only external energy source is gasoline. They just use less of it than a conventional gas car because of the electric assist. (Well, there's a bit of energy gain from the regenerative brakes, but it's not a lot).

Actually, it would be better if you could plug these cars into the wall. Then you'd have the choice of charging the batteries with the gas engine or by plugging the car in.

And I see no need for an indoor garage. These cars start and run in winter as well as any conventional gas car. And people have been plugging in block heaters for gas cars without garages for decades.

As for replacing the battery after 120,000-ish miles, I've heard that if these cars gain in popularity, by the time the batteries no longer take a charge, there will be aftermarket battery packs, or systems that allow you to replace only the worn-out cells, for a lot less than what they're quoting today. Only time will tell...

The problem with these cars is that you have to "Plug" them in the wall. This site www.hybridcars.com has some good information on hybrid cars in general.

NO NO NO, hehe. Right there on the site it says, "You don't need to plug anything in. The hybrid reclaims braking energy to charge the electric motor."

If you are thinking about hybrid, check out some volkswagen TDI disel's. They get over 50mpg highway on regular dinosaur sludge.
Some insight owners have managed to push 90+ mpg by carefully coasting, accelerating, and braking. You'll find it's kind of like riding a bike and trying to coast as long as possible and put as little energy as possible into it by knowing when to accelerate with hills and when to coast, etc.

See this about replacing the batteries http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article_id=1183

NO NO NO, hehe. Right there on the site it says, "You don't need to plug anything in. The hybrid reclaims braking energy to charge the electric motor."

.

Good... You guys corrected me. I'm glad these cars do not have to be pluged into the wall. Hey... I'm not perfect. ;-)

We have had a Toyota Prius for almost 3 years. Works like a champ, has enough acceleration and power to be fully maneuverable in and out of highway traffic - get 45+ mpg on the highway, about 40 mpg around town (b/c it's so hilly here in the Bay Area - it otherwise usually gets better mileage around town than on the highway, actually).

The new (next generation) model Prius was just named Car of the Year by one of the big auto magazines, and has ~25% better fuel economy and ~20% more power than the earlier model - so the technology is definitely improving, and already seems quite reliable.

The beauty of the hybrid is you don't have any of the recharging issues of just the electric car, as some have already pointed out to the poor misguided poster. And in many areas, as a zero-pollution car, you're allowed to use the carpool lanes regardless of how many passengers you have - an extra bonus.

40 MPG? I once had an 88 Ford escort that got that and around 50 on the highway. Great little car. The escorts nowdays don't get anywhere near that I think. Funny how designs change.

i thought toyota made a $10,000 hybrid car. ????confused???

To echo madpogue, I wish Toyota would make a Prius wagon and/or VW would make a hybrid Jetta wagon. Next year, Honda is expected to offer a hybrid-powered Accord sedan, but unfortunately they axed the Accord wagon a couple of model years ago.

i thought toyota made a $10,000 hybrid car. ????confused???

They may very well do so for the Japanese market (probably a minicar, if anything), but the best we can do in the U.S. is more than twice that price.

Why waste your money on a car? Just get panniers and ride your bike everywhere.
Because this thread is for a good cause, I won't mention that this also occurred to me. ;)

Because this thread is for a good cause, I won't mention that this also occurred to me. ;)

this is the car for bikers http://www.scion.com/drive/gallery/drive_xb_gallery.html ... http://www.scion.com/drive/features/xb_specs.html mpg.

or the not as good or mileage (26 hwy). butt holds more crap.

Within two years, there will be hybrid SUVs, which might be the better solution for bikers looking for cars with interior storage to transport bikes.

The problem with hybred cars is their cost. If you compare the Pirus to the Echo you will notice about a $10,000 savings. Your only gaining about 10mpg going with the Pirus, your going to take about 20 years to save the difference in the cost of the two cars and its highly unlikely that you will have the car for more then 5 years-the average in the USA.

Within two years, there will be hybrid SUVs, which might be the better solution for bikers looking for cars with interior storage to transport bikes.

I think you need to look at your calendar. It's the year 2004. Lexus/Toyota and Ford already have hybrid cute-utes (small SUVs). All use the same system actually. Ford bought/borrowed/licensed the technology from Toyota.

I think that fuel cell vehicles need to be invested in. In theory, one could create a fuel cell car that could run forever without refueling, just by the nature of fuel cells. Hydrogen and oxygen combine to create water and electricity. After the process happens, then a solar cell and batteries could split the water molecule exhaust and the two reactants could then be reused. Imagine THAT!! being able to drive without ever filing a tank! Even if they run on hydrogen alone, it still would be an incredible macine, and i would buy one in a heart beat.

Kind of an off thing, but I have a Chevy Prizm (Toyota Corolla clone) and it is classified as a ULEV (according to our archaic emission laws). It pollutes little (especially when I'm bike commuting) and regularly gets 32+ mpg in the city and 40+ on the highway. Anyhow, the old lady and myself have been kicking around ditching the trusty little bugger for a small old pickup. Then it occurred to me - we need to haul stuff, but never enough at one time to warrant even a small pickup. I think that a small trailer on the Chevy will be more than capable of carrying the occasional washing machine, couch, or other big-ticket item. Heck, if people can tow those things with a bike trailer, than the Prizm is certainly up to task (and according to the owner's manual can hitch up a little less than 1000 lbs). So the question remains - why buy a polluting old junker just to haul stuff (if even infrequently) and why make an unnecessary $20,000 purchase to vindicate out beliefs?

The fact of the matter is that while hybrids are more fuel-efficient and pollute less, it is still an enabler - something that substitutes the human in the urban landscape. I fully realize that cars aren't going anywhere, even for another 100 years, yet there is still a need for walkable and bikeable city planning. I'll continue to ride and forgo the hybrid just for the fact that I want to state for myself that our built environment should be constructed with humans in mind, not machines. Even if everyone owned hybrids, it would still enable vast parking lots and big box garbage to be built in place of real urban environments. Cars still promote a remoteness in the populace I'm still unwilling to accept.

With that said, I think that the hybrid is an admirable evolution of the automobile – we just can’t let it continue to dominate our landscape in the place of, well, a sense of place.

I think you need to look at your calendar. It's the year 2004. Lexus/Toyota and Ford already have hybrid cute-utes (small SUVs). All use the same system actually. Ford bought/borrowed/licensed the technology from Toyota.

Well, excuse me - I haven't seen one, haven't even seen an article on them (whereas, the Prius is EVERYWHERE here in the Bay Area). I don't think the cute-ute is a "real" SUV, as far as bike transport internally. We'll see if the full-size SUVs are hybrid before 2006, but I don't think we have any yet - and that's what I was referring to, not the midget versions.

Here (http://www.toyota.com/highlander/minisite/) is Toyota's site with information on the upcoming Highlander Hybrid.

Well, excuse me - I haven't seen one, haven't even seen an article on them (whereas, the Prius is EVERYWHERE here in the Bay Area). I don't think the cute-ute is a "real" SUV, as far as bike transport internally. We'll see if the full-size SUVs are hybrid before 2006, but I don't think we have any yet - and that's what I was referring to, not the midget versions.
FYI - not calling anyone out, just some info - An Escape will take a bike or two no problem (even if you have to fold the seats, but that's the case on larger SUV's as well), and the upcoming Toyota Highlander/Lexus RX 400h are decent sized and quite a bit larger than the Escape. If Toyota stays its course then I wouldn't be surprised to see a 4Runner or Sequioa Hybrid sometime before 2006. I think I read somewhere that Toyota wanted to have it's entire line have a hybrid model by the end of the decade. I also believe that GMC is going to be introducing a full size half ton hybrid pickup too. Personally I'd like to see if they could do a full size hybrid van, or a hybrid Dodge Sprinter.

All we need is gas to be about 4 - 5 dollars a gallon and we'd be in like flynn for more hybrid cars.

The problem with hybred cars is their cost. If you compare the Pirus to the Echo you will notice about a $10,000 savings. Your only gaining about 10mpg going with the Pirus, your going to take about 20 years to save the difference in the cost of the two cars and its highly unlikely that you will have the car for more then 5 years-the average in the USA.

This is a good point. I'm sure you can probably get a cheaper econo box for less then 20K. There is no way you'll keep that car for 20 years and the battery dies after you do 120K in miles which for many is about 6 years of usage.

I like to know what the resale value will be on these cars since the new owner will have to replace the battery in shortly after buying one. When you think about it, the motorist is saving on one end (gas) but paying more on the other end. (more expensive car) The motorist can probably save as much buying a used econo box. Interesting.

Well, 2005 is certainly "within 2 years". And I'd heard the Highlander would be the first full-size hybrid, but I had not seen that info.

Thanks for the link.

butt holds more crap.

:eek:

I hope that was a typo (and not a freudian slip.) ;)

Well, excuse me - I haven't seen one, haven't even seen an article on them (whereas, the Prius is EVERYWHERE here in the Bay Area). I don't think the cute-ute is a "real" SUV, as far as bike transport internally. We'll see if the full-size SUVs are hybrid before 2006, but I don't think we have any yet - and that's what I was referring to, not the midget versions.

Sorry. I didn't mean to insult. As far as the cute-utes and hauling bikes: you'd be surprised. The lack of true offroad suspension and as well as relative lack of ground clearance in this case is an advantage. A case in point, the Saturn VUE can fit two bikes internally far better than my Jeep ZJ. The floorpan of my ZJ is higher. While I would hesitate to rock crawl a VUE, I have to admit that it has better interior room for hauling stuff like bikes. True, it will be nice to see some full-sized SUVs with a hybrid system. Hell, the military has been testing hybrid humvees for quite a number of years now. Electric drive makes them stealthier and give them better acceleration. Dodge has a truck with a hybrid hydrogen fuel-cell system that also has a nice set of power outputs in the back to feed 110V/220V AC devices. They call the prototype "The Contractor Special". Toyota says it will launch a hybrid Highlander next year.

All we need is gas to be about 4 - 5 dollars a gallon and we'd be in like flynn for more hybrid cars.

Well, I don't know. If you look at the economics, a big SUV gets about 10 mpg. A small conventional car gets 30 mpg and let us say a hybrid gets 50 mpg.

At $5 per gallon, the SUV costs 50 cents per mile or $5000 per 10000 miles. The conventional car costs 17 cents per mile or $1700 per 10000 miles. The hybrid costs 10 cents per mile or $1000 per 10000 miles. Now hybrids having 2 engine systems will have to be more expensive then conventional cars so they will always cost more. Personally, I wonder if even at $5 per gallon if hybrids would justify their increased cost in terms of money saved on gas vs conventional gas vehicles. Also, I doubt that a few thousand dollars will blast people out of their SUVs. SUVs are not practical vehicles. They have to be ego enhancers so SUV drivers will hang onto them unless the economics get ruinous.

Personally, if we want to encourage fuel preservation, we need $10 per gallon gas. Now we could slap a big tax on it and then maybe, those SUVs would not flood our roads.

"Now we could slap a big tax on it and then maybe"

Won't work. Prices for everything would skyrocket and people would starve to death. Imagine what an orange would cost if shipping companies could not afford the gas to ship them up north?

We will just wait until the market makes it more cost effective to buy hybrid cars. But tax is not the answers, that is certain.

I'd like to see, for instance, Ford make a bare-bones Ranger with hybrid power. Besides it would be good business--it would set a fleet-vehicle standard that other car companies would have to catch up with.

Lexus/Toyota and Ford already have hybrid cute-utes (small SUVs).

I don't want a small SUV. I drive a midsize station wagon (VW Passat), which offers superior: road manners, cornering, emergency handling, stability, safety, wind drag, rolling resistance, ease of roof rack access, rear passenger legroom, etc.

I'd like to see, for instance, Ford make a bare-bones Ranger with hybrid power. Besides it would be good business--it would set a fleet-vehicle standard that other car companies would have to catch up with.

Trucks and offroad vehicles are the perfect application for electric drivetrains because of the large amount of low-RPM torque that can be delivered. It's interesting to note that some of the first automotive vehicles were actually purely electric driven but the idea was abandoned due to power density issues of the time.

I don't want a small SUV.

I wasn't proposing the small SUV as a solution for everyone or anyone for that matter. Actually I wasn't proposing anything at all. I was just stating that it was being made available.

I've considered the hybrids but hesitate on the initial buy price compared to similar conventional vehicle and on going maintenance costs. Comparing fuel consumption to a current hitech 4 cylinder cars the real world consumption isn't sufficient to justify the price difference, ie. my current Honda Jazz gets ~ 5 litres per 100 klm real world out of town and ~ 6.6 litres per 100 klm and I don't drive gently :) .
The theory is nice but the finished product is not quite there yet imho. Damn I like the idea though.

(I want to state for myself that our built environment should be constructed with humans in mind, not machines. Even if everyone owned hybrids, it would still enable vast parking lots and big box garbage to be built in place of real urban environments)

I live in a small town and this is the truth! I live in the central part of the older town where everyone has a side walk. I noticed that everything that has been added on in say the last 50 years has NO side walks!!!!! You have to walk in the street if you want to walk somewhere outside of the town center. Try riding my bike to Wal-Mart, Lowes, etc. and you are taking your life into your own hands because you are in a high traffic, high speed situation. Some of these big stores are not more than 7 or 8 blocks from my front door, but I have to run the gauntlet to get there on a bike. I do go to the post office, bank, bike shop, and a few other stores by bike. But like so many I crank up the mini van to go to some of these other places because they are dangerous to try and get there on a bike or foot. ENOUGH of my ranting about city planning!

I think most autos on the road today are GREATLY over powered! If the power to weight ratio where kept in check. Small light autos will get better milage than over powered heavy ones, with out the so called hybred name tag. I had a VW rabbit diesel 15 years ago that got better than 50 mpg! What's the big deal with this kind of car. I bought a Jetta diesel after that, though it didn't get quite as good of milage as the rabbit it was turbo charged and used a catalitic converter. This car had less emmisions than any gas auto I have ever owned once it was up to opperating temp. ;)

I have been salivating over the Smart Car out of Europe since 2001. It's due to arrive in 2006 (from what they say), and I think it's the best deal out there for hybrid cars:

http://www.thesmart.co.uk/

It's cheaper than most hybrid cars here, even if you pay to have it shipped from the UK. Now that's cold.

Koffee

I have been salivating over the Smart Car out of Europe since 2001. It's due to arrive in 2006 (from what they say), and I think it's the best deal out there for hybrid cars:

http://www.thesmart.co.uk/

It's cheaper than most hybrid cars here, even if you pay to have it shipped from the UK. Now that's cold.

Koffee

I think some of the "safety regulations" in the US will not allow these kind of cars to be imported, will they?

04 Prius midsize this year 60/51 mpg 4dr,5 passenger hatchback gas/elec loaded,under 25,000
Ford soon to have a hybrid powered escape

We have had a Toyota Prius for almost 3 years. Works like a champ, has enough acceleration and power to be fully maneuverable in and out of highway traffic - get 45+ mpg on the highway, about 40 mpg around town (b/c it's so hilly here in the Bay Area - it otherwise usually gets better mileage around town than on the highway, actually).



Those consumption figures are still terrible. We'd get that out of a typical diesel car here. That's a hybrid car? Sheesh.... not enough effort being made.

You guys need fuel that costs the same as Europe. Probably the ONLY reason why our cars are normally so much more frugal.

The problem with hybred cars is their cost. If you compare the Pirus to the Echo you will notice about a $10,000 savings. Your only gaining about 10mpg going with the Pirus, your going to take about 20 years to save the difference in the cost of the two cars and its highly unlikely that you will have the car for more then 5 years-the average in the USA.

Not quite right. The average mileage for the 2004 Prius is 55mpg. For the Echo, it is about 36mpg for the automatic and 39mpg for the manual, so we are talking about a difference of 16 to 19mpg. Rather significant, I would say.

Also, you have to consider options when you price cars. The $20,800 base price of the Prius represents a more or less fully loaded car. While the base price for the Echo 4-door is $10,885, one equipped comparably to the Prius will run about $15,330. That makes a difference of about $5,470 from the Prius.

But there is more to a hybrid than mileage and economics. They are also low emission vehicles. In the case of a Prius, it is classified as a "Partial Zero Emission Vehicle" (PZEV). A suspicious term to be sure (either it's zero-emission or it's not), but the fact is it creates much lower emissions than most other cars.

Let's also factor in cruising range. The Prius can cover about 650 miles on a tank of gas. Less fillups means more convenience.

Finally, buying a Prius or any hybrid sends a strong message to the powers that be. US auto manufacturers and their lobbyists in Washington have fought long and hard against higher mileage and lower emission standards. Their main argument has been that Americans simply don't want fuel efficient cars, because they prefer big, dirty, gas-guzzling SUVs. By purchasing a hybrid, you help create a demand for environmentally and politically responsible products.

The new Prius has been encouraging in this regard, and is challenging the false notion that there is no demand for hybrids.

From the Toyota website:

"If you are in the market for a new 2004 Prius, we appreciate your patience. There is currently a waiting list at many dealerships across the country. Since the vehicle launched in October of 2003, there has been an extremely high demand for the 2004 Prius with Hybrid Synergy Drive. Toyota is making every effort to increase production to try and respond to the current high levels of demand."

I think some of the "safety regulations" in the US will not allow these kind of cars to be imported, will they?

I don't know what the import issues will be, but the Smart Car premiered at the most recent Detroit Auto Show. Someone came back from the show and told me about it, and they said that the car will be introduced here in 2006. In the meantime, the car is going to be sold in Canada starting this fall. I may not wait until 2006 in that case- I'll go to Canada and buy the car there and drive it back myself.

I would never drive this car on a freeway- this is definitely more of an around town kind of car thanks to the general lack of thought by a lot of drivers in the USA and because there are so many large cars over here that probably wouldn't even be looking for a car as small as this.

Koffee

Smart car....interesting!

I really don't see much that is better out there than the ancient Citroen 2CV.

The new car that I'd really love to see in the states is the VW Lupo Diesel. That car get 70mpg, no hybrid!

[QUOTE=Brennan]Not quite right. The average mileage for the 2004 Prius is 55mpg. For the Echo, it is about 36mpg for the automatic and 39mpg for the manual, so we are talking about a difference of 16 to 19mpg. Rather significant, I would say.

That makes a difference of about $5,470 from the Prius.

Ok, so lets say $5,000 for sake of argument and we'll use 17mpg difference (which by the way I know people who own Echos and Civics and they get about 46mpg on hwy and actually rated for 45 by EPA; also your price for the Prius is in error, the base price for the base model is $18,926 invoice which locally I could not come close to that price); anyway over 100,000 miles that would be 960 gallons of gas saved or at $1.80 per gallon you spent $1,728 extra in fuel. Even with your incorrect data you still lose with the Prius!!!

Also as the battery gets older the gas mileage drops because the gas engine takes more of the load that the battery is unable to do! Something the manufactures have failed to mention! Also if the battery dies you cannot use reverse-but at least you can still drive it. Plus when the outside temperture drops below freezing guess what? Yep, the batteries do not perform as well and their performance drops as the temperture drops even further, with reports that when the temp reached the teens the "turtle" appeared which means the battery has dropped below its normal State-of-Charge (SOC) operating range. Gasoline mileage figures for below freezing temps have been reported to average 36mpg. And before we forget the battery replacement is around $3,000!

Now if you use the real world figures and not the ones you dreamed up the savings is negative. The Prius at $19,000 vs the Echo at $10,000 (all invoice prices according to Kelly Blue for 04 models). Thats a difference of $9,000. The Echo gets 43mpg and the Prius gets 51mpg (all hwy) that's a difference of 8mpg. Now over 100,000 miles that's a savings of 366 gallons or $659 at $1.80 per gallon and that does not even include any bad weather mpg reduction or older battery reduction! So probably your actual savings will end up being about 1/2 that not including the $3,000 battery replacement if you keep the car long enough to do that, but if you don't replace the battery the cars resale is far less then the Echo-darn there's that losing money thing again.

And green wise the Echo and Civic are the equal to the Prius.

So now you had your math lesson which car is more economical to buy a Prius or the Echo or Civic?

I'll just wait for the fuel cell technology and study it before jumping ship.

Even more economical is a VW with the TDI diesel...