"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Weight Loss vs. Training Intensity

I am trying to get into shape to do some racing next year. I haven't done any racing for 15 years, and I now want to get into the mix again. I also had not gotten on a bike at all for 12 of those 15 years.

I got back on the bike about 3 years ago, and this spring, summer, and fall, I was able to put in a decent amount of time and miles. Overall, though, I still think I'm about 5-10 pounds higher than I'd like to be. 4I'm 40 years old, 5 foot 6 inches, and weigh about 155 pounds. My local gym has one of those scales that has the fat % calculation where you grab onto the handle, and it shows up between 15%-16%

The issue is that I can certainly lower my calorie intake, but when I do, even by a 200-300 per day, I feel it in the 2nd-3rd hour of a training ride.

So, how do you balance the weight loss side with the need for calories for training.

Eat enough to fuel your riding and to replenish afterwards. Cut back in the evenings.

The electronic BF% gauges aren't very accurate.

That's a really long ride. I lost a bunch of weight with only 90 minutes per day, at the bottom end of tempo intensity. I didn't recover any of my ride burn, as the intensity was low enough to live off of fat.

I am the exact height and age as you. I was at 155 about 6 weeks ago, but I am now down to 149. I would like to get down to 140 and I think I can do it. I have increased the amount of low intensity training that I do on the bike and the weight has started to come off.

5'6" 155 sounds about right to me. I made it to 150 last season for a bit, but I didn't quite have to same ummmffff

I've dropped 10 in that last 6 weeks. I've got a few more to go. I've been doing mostly zone 2-4 rides at least 90 min if I'm outside. No less than 1 hr if indoors. Sometimes I get a little zone 5 in there on the group rides. Based on past experience I have found it better to lose the weight first, than work on getting fast. I got faster just by losing weight even though I was keeping a caloric deficit. I have also found that if I am not done dieting by the time the racing starts, I'm boned for the season. But thats me. You might get different results.

The secret is you gotta eat a little bit while riding. Gel, powerbar, anything.

The secret is you gotta eat a little bit while riding. Gel, powerbar, anything.

+1

If you eat a little something during your ride, it'll help you feel a little less overwhelmed during the ride and can make you feel less hungry after the ride too.

Do you eat anything in the 2 hrs preceding your ride?

Actually, I've been pretty good about nutrition over the last 9 months. On heavy riding days, I'm putting in about 2500-2800 calories, but I'm generally riding 3-4 hours. I eat about 300 cals worth of complex carbs 2-3 hours prior to riding, and I generally go through about 16 ounces of powerade/gatorade during the ride, along with water.

Typical daily intake is 20%/20%/60% of fat/protein/carbs, spread around 5 main eating periods.

Eat lots on the bike. starve yourself off. You'll lose weight. You're not supposed to lose more than 1lb/week, but I don't have the patience for that.

Does anyone know, physiologically speaking, why maintaing heart rate in a certain zone is supposed to promote your body using its fat stores for energy? I have a very basic understanding of metabolism, and I can't figure out why this is the case.

Thoughts?

didn't keith bontrager say "weight loss. intensity. choose one."

Actually, I've been pretty good about nutrition over the last 9 months. On heavy riding days, I'm putting in about 2500-2800 calories, but I'm generally riding 3-4 hours. I eat about 300 cals worth of complex carbs 2-3 hours prior to riding, and I generally go through about 16 ounces of powerade/gatorade during the ride, along with water.

Typical daily intake is 20%/20%/60% of fat/protein/carbs, spread around 5 main eating periods.


You mean sugar water? Ditch the gatorade

Does anyone know, physiologically speaking, why maintaing heart rate in a certain zone is supposed to promote your body using its fat stores for energy? I have a very basic understanding of metabolism, and I can't figure out why this is the case.

Thoughts?
Here's what I have been told, so take it with a grain of NaCl:

In real basic terms, it has to do with the fact that your body has evolved to be darn smart, and conserves as much glycogen as possible. So quick activities use glycogen stored in the muscle cells to fuel activity. However, as activity continues, the body naturally understands that it will use up that valuable resource, and it starts using stored fat instead, at least to the point where the aerobic fuel cycle is possible, after which, it starts using glycogen again.

From an evolutionary standpoint, glycogen stores are valuable because it is the fuel necessary for most fight or flight activities.

You mean sugar water? Ditch the gatorade

I've been told that before. I've also been told that gatorade/juice/sugar water is the quickest way to get calories into the body during exercise. About 50/50 in those statements, so I keep using it. Also, its got salt which helps replenish that.

In real basic terms, it has to do with the fact that your body has evolved to be darn smart, and conserves as much glycogen as possible. So quick activities use glycogen stored in the muscle cells to fuel activity. However, as activity continues, the body naturally understands that it will use up that valuable resource, and it starts using stored fat instead, at least to the point where the aerobic fuel cycle is possible, after which, it starts using glycogen again.

From an evolutionary standpoint, glycogen stores are valuable because it is the fuel necessary for most fight or flight activities.

A fine summing up, just the caveat that you'll never be relying entirely on fat for fuel during exercise. A low level exercise following something like a baconator might get an elite endurance athlete to use ~40% fat.


I keep using it. Also, its got salt which helps replenish that.

Really doesn't have enough salt to matter. Decide whether or not to drink it based on the sugar not on the 140mg of electrolytes per serving. You could quadruple that with a quick shake from a salt shaker.

Does anyone know, physiologically speaking, why maintaing heart rate in a certain zone is supposed to promote your body using its fat stores for energy? I have a very basic understanding of metabolism, and I can't figure out why this is the case.

Thoughts?

you burn the same amount of fat anywhere past ~60%MHR. the body has a ton of energy stored as fat but can't process enough of it for intense activity, which is why we have muscle glycogen (which is different from liver glycogen... chemically the same but liver glycogen is exclusivly for the brain as that is its only fuel (unless you bonk and have to break down protein...)). the proportion of energy from fat goes down as your glycogen energy use goes up with intensity.

you burn the same amount of fat anywhere past ~60%MHR. the body has a ton of energy stored as fat but can't process enough of it for intense activity, which is why we have muscle glycogen (which is different from liver glycogen... chemically the same but liver glycogen is exclusivly for the brain as that is its only fuel (unless you bonk and have to break down protein...)). the proportion of energy from fat goes down as your glycogen energy use goes up with intensity.

That means that you burn the same amount of fat when you are going at 85% MHR as at 60%. The rest of the energy is made up from glycogen. You rebuild your glycogen stores after the ride, either from body fat converted to glycogen, or more directly from consumed carbohydrates. So the "fat burning zone" is commonly misunderstood- it's not that at low intensities you burn more fat, you are burning a higher percrentage of fat.

The fat--burning ability of low intensity riding comes from being able to do a lot of it. Five hours at 500 Cal/hr vs two at 800 Cal/hr burns more calories overall. But two hours @ 500Cal/hr in the "fat burning zone" burns less calories than that 800 Cal/hr fast ride.


I am pretty sure that muscles consume liver glycogen except at high intensities when muscle glycogen is used. The brain does run only on glycogen and doesn't store any, so when you run out of liver glycogen you get stupid because your brain is running on fumes.

Yeah other tissues can use liver glycogen, it is just the chief source for keeping blood glucose levels high enough and thus is crucial to your brain as blood sugar is the brain's almost exclusive fuel.

The brain does run only on glycogen and doesn't store any, so when you run out of liver glycogen you get stupid because your brain is running on fumes.

Huh. My glycogen stores must be low because I feel pretty stupid.

I am trying to get into shape to do some racing next year. I haven't done any racing for 15 years, and I now want to get into the mix again. I also had not gotten on a bike at all for 12 of those 15 years.

I got back on the bike about 3 years ago, and this spring, summer, and fall, I was able to put in a decent amount of time and miles. Overall, though, I still think I'm about 5-10 pounds higher than I'd like to be. 4I'm 40 years old, 5 foot 6 inches, and weigh about 155 pounds. My local gym has one of those scales that has the fat % calculation where you grab onto the handle, and it shows up between 15%-16%

The issue is that I can certainly lower my calorie intake, but when I do, even by a 200-300 per day, I feel it in the 2nd-3rd hour of a training ride.

So, how do you balance the weight loss side with the need for calories for training.

If you shift your diet a bit, you can still get the energy you need and cut your BFP. The Training and Nutrition threads are chock-full of strategies to consider.

Apart from that, to counter the hunger that you feel while training, you should consume low-calorie, but high energy foods or solutions while you ride. Good examples (or at least things that have worked for me) are gels, Clif Bars, Powerbars, Bananas, etc. Avoid foods that are packed with sugars or fat, since these are harder to digest and will sit in your stomach longer, causing discomfort. In fact, the best resources to take in while cycling are liquid-based ones, since they are utilized by the body a lot faster and will give you energy a lot quicker.

Good luck!

I am pretty sure that muscles consume liver glycogen except at high intensities when muscle glycogen is used. The brain does run only on glycogen and doesn't store any, so when you run out of liver glycogen you get stupid because your brain is running on fumes.

Incorrect. The brain also uses ketone bodies for energy.

Does anyone know, physiologically speaking, why maintaing heart rate in a certain zone is supposed to promote your body using its fat stores for energy? I have a very basic understanding of metabolism, and I can't figure out why this is the case.

Thoughts?

I think this was said here, but the exact range is dependent on your maximum heart rate. However, your body utilizes more of your fat stores when working under 45% (or so) of your MHR (in zones, this is around Zone 1 and Zone 2).

That whole "best HR range to burn fat" is (pretty much) a myth. The harder to work the more energy you use and (pretty much) its even from all sources.

Being that is the racing forum I wouldnt work out in those suggested fat burning zones during this time of year. All that will do is make you a damn good zone 1 and 2 rider. Mix it up and do some SST. If you warm up and cool down correctly you will still have a good chunk of time each week in those easier "fat burning" zones. This is assuming you are like most of us and dont have all day to train. Common sense should tell you that 3 days @ 2 hours of zone 3 will burn more fat than 3 says @ 2 hours of zone 2/1

That whole "best HR range to burn fat" is (pretty much) a myth. The harder to work the more energy you use and (pretty much) its even from all sources.

There is a zone where you will burn calories without killing your muscle glycogen. Your body can then use more fat for fuel, and you don't have to eat as much. I lost 12 lbs in 5.5 weeks this way. 90 minutes of training each day, and I was carrying a 1200-1500 kcal/day deficit. I can't do that when I'm training hard -- too hungry, and can't perform day after day on a diet.

There is a zone where you will burn calories without killing your muscle glycogen. Your body can then use more fat for fuel, and you don't have to eat as much. I lost 12 lbs in 5.5 weeks this way. 90 minutes of training each day, and I was carrying a 1200-1500 kcal/day deficit. I can't do that when I'm training hard -- too hungry, and can't perform day after day on a diet.

Thank you! I've been saying this for years. You cant have your cake and eat it too. No pun intended.

Lose weight first, then work on the fast.

The more I ride, the faster I lose weight. Volume seems to work better for me than higher intensity. If I ride too hard, I seem to use up my glycogen stores instead of burning fat. LSD (Long steady distance) seems to work best for me (4-6 hours in the saddle at a time, at least twice a week... even better if I can do that 3 times a week which I can do when I'm not doing the higher intensity or racing).

I don't think I'll be able to lose any more weight till the spring. I might be able to control my diet really well over break and lose a few pounds.

I'm a lot stronger right now than I was in the spring, even in season and I actually have a sprint now. I was 140-144 in the spring, and I was better at climbing then.

I'm not sure if the additional 5 lbs I'm carrying now is muscle that's making me stronger. I'm a little worried that losing weight is going to hurt my performance. I'll probably see what happens over winter and stop trying to lose weight if I see it starting to hurt me.

The paleo diet is recommended by Friel so you might look into that. Lots of stuff about eating based on glycemic index. Might help you shed some weight. I tried, but I am already skinny and I lost enough weight where I was constantly catching colds, so i went back to my eat a lot diet.

Don't eat anything with ingredients you don't recognize, don't eat too much, don't eat late at night. You'll get hungry for the first week or so, but soon it'll just kind of fade into the dull day to day pang of weight loss, and before you know it you'll be in racing trim.

The first week is always the roughest for me, but I'm back under 86-87kg for the first time in a long time, and leaner than ever. The caloric restriction is easy, it's making sure that I'm only eating veggies, whole grains, fruits and a bit of lean meat that takes focus. I just remind myself that lighter = faster, more aero, and lets face it, chics dig ab veins.

Don't eat anything with ingredients you don't recognize, don't eat too much, don't eat late at night. You'll get hungry for the first week or so, but soon it'll just kind of fade into the dull day to day pang of weight loss, and before you know it you'll be in racing trim.

The first week is always the roughest for me, but I'm back under 86-87kg for the first time in a long time, and leaner than ever. The caloric restriction is easy, it's making sure that I'm only eating veggies, whole grains, fruits and a bit of lean meat that takes focus. I just remind myself that lighter = faster, more aero, and lets face it, chics dig ab veins.

You also don't have home made indian food tempting you after a semester of college slop.

You also don't have home made indian food tempting you after a semester of college slop.

This is true. There are a couple de-freakin'-licious Indian places in Chapel Hill, de-freakin-liciousness aside though I can't imagine that a lot of the puri and paneer is good for weight loss :D Were I presented with that day to day it'd be harder.

This is true. There are a couple de-freakin'-licious Indian places in Chapel Hill, de-freakin-liciousness aside though I can't imagine that a lot of the puri and paneer is good for weight loss :D Were I presented with that day to day it'd be harder.

It's healthier if it's home cooked. Nowhere near as much grease and stuff.

Rice, veggies, and pulses aren't all that fatty. We don't cook the other stuff as often. Though my Dad makes AWESOME chicken and lamb, and that has a bunch of butter and oil in it.

I'm sure I can lose 5lbs over the 4 weeks of break. And if I don't, then I'll consider this to be my new weight till next years base building. I've only gained about 6-10 lbs and I'm much stronger now in every way. If losing weight means getting weaker, then I'd rather not.

I can see my abs and all at this weight too ;)

. The Training and Nutrition threads are chock-full of crappy information.
FYP
Seriously...there's a few good posters over there, but there's so much other noise in there that is misleading or often flat out wrong. You'll get just as good or better info in here.


you should consume low-calorie, but high energy
does not compute

does not compute

Think he must mean nutrients not energy.

Hmmm, after reading the earlier posts of this thread, I am rethinking what weight I'd like to get down to. I am currently 5'6" and have been consistently at 136 pounds. I was hoping to get down to 130 but I thinking now that might be too much weight loss.

If i were to eat:

a small pre ride meal
gels/ energy bars on rides
eat in the three/four hours post-ride

starve myself the rest of the time (I don't mean literally, just a drastic reduction in caloric intake)

would i be able to increase performance AND lose weight?

I keep hearing you can't do both but I find that hard to believe. It seems with careful planning and execution it can be done. Everything has to do with timing.

post ride carbs will fill up most of your glycogen stores for next day, pre ride meal will top them off, on-ride snacks will keep you going, then the cycle begins again.

find the flaws.

I just eat as much as I can. More food means more fuel, so I can go faster for longer. However much I eat, I seem to burn it all.

would i be able to increase performance AND lose weight?

I keep hearing you can't do both but I find that hard to believe. It seems with careful planning and execution it can be done. Everything has to do with timing.

You're right to some extent. It depends on what "increase performance" means to you and what you are starting with. For a sedentary tub of goo, you could easily get faster, more endurance, and stronger while losing weight. However, the more fit you are the harder it's going to be. You should still be able to increase endurance while losing weight for the most part. Adding strength where muscle mass is an issue while losing weight is where things get tricky, which is why body builders do bulking and cutting phases.

I think that adding strength in general is hard to do while losing weight, but that's my experience. I do see some weight loss(minimal) when I up my intensity, but I'm also not quantifying exactly the gains I'm making.

Almost "everything does have to do with timing," provided you have the experience and background to understand metabolic needs all throughout the day, how your body reacts to macronutrient blends, how to optimiize not inhibit the body's growth hormone release, etc, etc