"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - FTP and the real world...

So a family member who was a top Cat 1 in Texas, won the state championship TT 5ish years ago (I think around 53 minutes), tells me that he won on an average 310 watts as calculated by his SRM. He weighed about 155, so he wasn't exactly super small either. He also won a time trial at a stage race (I think fayetteville?), P/1/2 field, with less than 290 watts on average.

So what is the deal with that? How can he win the state championship with only 310 watts, but there are Cat 3 and 4's with with supposedly over 300 watt FTPs that are having a hard time catting up?

Being The fastest/strongest cyclist doesn't necessarily mean you win the race.
(It sure helps though)

To quote a famous hammerhead BFer, "TTs are about efficiency, not power."

I'm horribly inefficient, so I need more power. Think of me as the Hummer H2 of time trialing (round-tube road bike, road helmet, etc.).

Last year's TX state TT champ had (I believe) an FTP of ~300W.

There are many parts to a good TT. The size of a rider is important, but the shape (e.g. position) is more important. Also, pacing is extremely important. 310 watt average could have been 340 into the wind and 280 with a tail. If he had an SRM 5 years ago he was quite a bit ahead of most of the field in that regard.

....because results are not based on powerfiles....

....unless it's an indoor TT...

...where was I?

Because he's smaller he has a smaller frontal profile and probably a better position. Also 4.2w/kg is not terrible.

Because he's smaller he has a smaller frontal profile and probably a better position. Also 4.2w/kg is not terrible.

+1 http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

I'm guessing he didn't win very many hill road races.

interesting. I don't need more power, I need less frontal area. :)

All true. It's also possible that some of the Cat 4 claimants to 300watt FTPs are 1) improperly extrapolating from shorter efforts or 2) posting on BF, where all numbers are inflated by 15% by what must be an automatic java script.

All true. It's also possible that some of the Cat 4 claimants to 300watt FTPs are 1) improperly extrapolating from shorter efforts or 2) posting on BF, where all numbers are inflated by 15% by what must be an automatic java script.

meh....I just found mine and I am below that for sure (266), but MJH2's numbers were JUST below 300W(291). We are definite Cat 4 pack fodder.....assuming I submit my upgrade request that is....

...but we're fat. Both of us at 3.3 w/kg.

All true. It's also possible that some of the Cat 4 claimants to 300watt FTPs are 1) improperly extrapolating from shorter efforts or 2) posting on BF, where all numbers are inflated by 15% by what must be an automatic java script.

I'd be happy to post my LT test from last April (lab test) with a 302 if it'll make you feel better. I've gone up about 7-8% since then too (MAP tests only, no lab results).

It doesn't mean I'm not pack fodder.

As another data point, I'm in that same ballpark, but spent half of last season getting dropped.

Having decent strength doesn't necessarily equate to performance in races (read: I race like a moron).

As another data point, I'm in that same ballpark, but spent half of last season getting dropped.

Having decent strength doesn't necessarily equate to performance in races (read: I race like a moron).

You sell yourself short. You raced well early in the season before taking the lay-off, and I don't doubt you'll be firing an all cylinders again soon enough.

BTW -- did you get Tal's email?

I'm guessing he didn't win very many hill road races.

Depends on what Fayetteville race hes taking about. If its Joe Martin thats an uphill TT.

All true. It's also possible that some of the Cat 4 claimants to 300watt FTPs are 1) improperly extrapolating from shorter efforts or 2) posting on BF, where all numbers are inflated by 15% by what must be an automatic java script.

Some of us are just plain fat :) so the numbers ARE accurate.

interesting. I don't need more power, I need less frontal area. :)

you need both :D

oh, and I can verify that a 310w FTP is enough power to lap a cat 4 crit field.

race smart AND hard

You sell yourself short. You raced well early in the season before taking the lay-off, and I don't doubt you'll be firing an all cylinders again soon enough.

BTW -- did you get Tal's email?

Ha, thanks. Here's hoping. I did get it! I'll be dropping them off at his office tomorrow afternoon. I'm glad somebody will be able to put them to good use.


oh, and I can verify that a 310w FTP is enough power to lap a cat 4 crit field.

race smart AND hard

Man oh man, I've got to either move or take some more road trips this season.

Having decent strength doesn't necessarily equate to performance in races (read: I race like a moron).

Mike-

You need to borrow my copy of "The Rider". It is a great read. If we ride this Sunday just drop by my house on your way home.

I've not read the other replies, but around here (Ohio) the best time trialers (trialists?) are cat 3's or 4's. Just because you can push XXX watts for 50 minutes in a time trial does NOT mean you can win/place/show in 3 hour road races or technical crits. There are several guys I know who don't do anything other than time trials to begin with.

http://www.econsciousmarket.com/eco-times/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/applesandoranges.jpg

oh, and I can verify that a 310w FTP is enough power to lap a cat 4 crit field.

race smart AND hard

not if you weigh 93kg, and aren't terribly aerodynamic. I can verify that.

oh, and I can verify that a 310w FTP is enough power to lap a cat 4 crit field.

race smart AND hard

That must be an interesting crit course..... 1 hour for the 4's is kind of a long race as well.

Out of boredom ran the 310 watt lapping Cat 4 field hypothesis through Kruezotter. Assumed 150lb rider in the drops, with a 16lb bike, flat course, no wind.

Our breakaway canidate does 24.8mph at FTP. That is not going to keep you off the front of a Cat 4 crit. Even assuming the hypothetical rider could maintain say 350 watts for 20 minutes or so (a charitable assumption) he's still under 26mph, and that's not staying away in a Cat 4 crit.

After Kruezottering myself lapping a Cat4 field at 28 mph, my new 2009 ftp goal is 568 watts.

ITs definitely about W/kg... Im 5'10", 175, cat 4, FTP of 340. I definitely cannot lap a cat 4 field (track, different story). It's all relative, NorCal crit racing is a bit tough...

Out of boredom ran the 310 watt lapping Cat 4 field hypothesis through Kruezotter. Assumed 150lb rider in the drops, with a 16lb bike, flat course, no wind.

Our breakaway canidate does 24.8mph at FTP. That is not going to keep you off the front of a Cat 4 crit. Even assuming the hypothetical rider could maintain say 350 watts for 20 minutes or so (a charitable assumption) he's still under 26mph, and that's not staying away in a Cat 4 crit.

I've seen riders lap fields at about that speed. Nobody wanted to chase.

Well, I've thought a lot about this, since one of my goals this season is to lap a 3 field. My FTP is maybe 350W, and that's certainly not going to get it. The thing is that my 5m power is probably around 475W when the season gets going. So, get in a break, and get a corner ahead of the field. Then attack the break, get a gap, and lay it down for 5 minutes, hard.

That sure won't work if the pack is chasing, but it's feasible, as I think I'd be over 30mph for that time.

If you make almost 500 watts for 5 minutes, it's no wonder why you kill at the crits. What's your 1' power?

834w :o

ever think about training/racing the Kilo?

:lol: I've been wishing for a velodrome in Austin for pretty much just that reason :)

Dang. I know some guys who don't have a 5s power that high lol.

I've seen riders lap fields at about that speed. Nobody wanted to chase.

Here in Nor Cal they chase everything in cat 4 and 5. 28 mph will not get away. However they will let ya get 100 yards out and let ya hang yerself before the pack swallows ya and spits ya out.

Here in Nor Cal they chase everything is cat 4 and 5. 28 mph will not get away. However they will let ya get 100 yards out and let ya hang yerself before the pack swallows ya and spits ya out.

SoCal too... and it's not just enough to have a high threshold, you have to jump hard and sustain a high effort to get away, and you have to commit. I had a few opportunities last year where I found myself OTF and screwed it up because I couldn't commit. Not that I would have been able to do anything with it anyway, because I didn't have the sustained power to stay away, or at least I didn't think I did...

I don't claim to be super strong even now, but I have so much more power and confidence now than I did going into the 2008 season I should be able to do something.

SoCal too... and it's not just enough to have a high threshold, you have to jump hard and sustain a high effort to get away, and you have to commit. I had a few opportunities last year where I found myself OTF and screwed it up because I couldn't commit. Not that I would have been able to do anything with it anyway, because I didn't have the sustained power to stay away, or at least I didn't think I did...

I don't claim to be super strong even now, but I have so much more power and confidence now than I did going into the 2008 season I should be able to do something.

From what I been told and seen, this changes in the 3's and 2's.(Actually have team tactics) They will let ya get away. Most of the time they catch ya, but I did see a 35+ masters 123 where 3 guys got away and stayed away. Solo is much harder, unless yer name is Nate English.;)

834w :o

Still? How old is that test?

Still? How old is that test?

Yeah, that's from Sept. I haven't been able to test since the broken collar bone and weight loss. I've got a sprained ankle now too. Just screwing around I got a 690 a couple weeks ago.

I've just been working on FTP since Sept, with specificity starting up in mid-Jan, so I should be getting my short-duration numbers back around late Feb (crosses fingers).

I do think I've flattened my profile by losing weight though. I think I'll get up close to the same W/kg on 5s and 1m, but it's not looking likely that I'll get the same absolute Wattage, but we'll just have to see. I guess if those durations are actually trainable, I might see some improvement, but they've usually just tracked with FTP for me.

oh yeah.. Nate can REALLY ride (AWAY, that is!). There are some guys in NorCal with the same pedigree- Nolan comes to mind... cannot imagine how good he'd be if he started earlier.

Yeah, that's from Sept. I haven't been able to test since the broken collar bone and weight loss. I've got a sprained ankle now too. Just screwing around I got a 690 a couple weeks ago.

I've just been working on FTP since Sept, with specificity starting up in mid-Jan, so I should be getting my short-duration numbers back around late Feb (crosses fingers).

I do think I've flattened my profile by losing weight though. I think I'll get up close to the same W/kg on 5s and 1m, but it's not looking likely that I'll get the same absolute Wattage, but we'll just have to see. I guess if those durations are actually trainable, I might see some improvement, but they've usually just tracked with FTP for me.

There is a possibility that threshold training can irreversibly reduce your explosive power. If you look at the training adaptations chart you will notice that SST training is one of the best zones for interconverting muscle fiber types (type IIb to IIa). This interconversion increases your fatigue resistance but decreases the contraction force and rate. The interconversion is permanent.

There is a possibility that threshold training can irreversibly reduce your explosive power. If you look at the training adaptations chart you will notice that SST training is one of the best zones for interconverting muscle fiber types (type IIb to IIa). This interconversion increases your fatigue resistance but decreases the contraction force and rate. The interconversion is permanent.

Why can't it be interconverted back to IIb?

Why can't it be interconverted back to IIb?

....because it will make baby jesus cry.

Permanent, as in never? HAHAHAHA. Right.

There is a possibility that threshold training can irreversibly reduce your explosive power. If you look at the training adaptations chart you will notice that SST training is one of the best zones for interconverting muscle fiber types (type IIb to IIa). This interconversion increases your fatigue resistance but decreases the contraction force and rate. The interconversion is permanent.

Yeah, after not being in the hunt for wins in some of the races I did last year, I decided that the FTP gains are worth it. I didn't bring the full sprint and 1m power to the finish anyway (because of FTP).

We'll see when I get healthy enough to actually explode again. I've already been considering how my tactics will change with the new profile though...

There is a possibility that threshold training can irreversibly reduce your explosive power. If you look at the training adaptations chart you will notice that SST training is one of the best zones for interconverting muscle fiber types (type IIb to IIa). This interconversion increases your fatigue resistance but decreases the contraction force and rate. The interconversion is permanent.

So if you want to have a sprint, you should do sprint workouts even when you're doing threshold training?

So if you want to have a sprint, you should do sprint workouts even when you're doing threshold training?

I know nothing. I only come here to create confusion and doubt.

I know nothing. I only come here to create confusion and doubt.

Success! ;)

So if you want to have a sprint, you should do sprint workouts even when you're doing threshold training?

Uh, it'd be better than eating hohos and ding-dongs. But nothing beats samosa's at the buffet line.

I know nothing. I only come here to create confusion and doubt.

I don't know about everyone else, but mine was a serious question. Is there some mechanism at play that does not allow the conversion back to IIb? (Myosin, right?)