Folding Bikes - Dahon Mu SL vs. low end BF Pocket Rocket

Hi all,

I a looking for decent folding bikes for casual workouts in the local trails (asphalt paved, 10-15miles at a time) and narrowed down the selection to two models:

* Dahon Mu SL $1200 MSRP (http://www.dahon.com/us/musl.htm)

* Low end Bike Friday Pocket Rocket 16 speeds, flat handle bar, $1200 MSRP (example 1 here http://www.bikefriday.com/pocketrocket)

Both Dahon and Friday Bike have dealers here (South SF Bay Area).

Having bikes that roles well and feel as close as possible to standard bikes is a big plus for me.

Any suggestion which one to choose?

Thanks,

Kam

If you're even considering a Pocket Rocket, it means you're not really interested in folding speed or compactness. In that case, the choice is clear: the pocket rocket is the far superior bike, no contest. Try 'em both, you'll find that out fast. The mu has a stunted top tube, has an upright riding position, and will feel like a noodle compared to the rocket. And will squeak. In this case, you might examine a Swift if you can find one.

But if you care about really being able to fold the bike regularly, the SL is definitely worth a look. At that price, I would also look at a Tikit hyperfold and model-T (to which I am partial as a fellow casual workout-er). As with the Pocket Rocket, make sure that you're testing on the right length Tikit for you.

I personally do not believe the SL competes well in its price range. If you're considering Dahons, you should look more where they tend to have higher value -- in the $700 range, like a Mu P8.

If you're even considering a Pocket Rocket, it means you're not really interested in folding speed or compactness.

Can you elaborate? I have not see the Pocket Rocket yet so have no clue what it takes to fold them.

Do you they require tools to fold? How difficult is it to fold them? (all I need is to put them in the trunk of my car, 32" max dimension. I don't plan to air travel with them).

Thanks,

Kam

The Mu SL is a very sexy bike - light, and very cool looking. Have played with one a bit at our local Dahon dealer. However, Dahons are not always easy to upgrade components on. (Note we own both brands and previously has two Boardwalk D7s).

The BF can be sized to fit you, whether the stock Sm, Med & Lge, or total custom build. The Mu is "one size fits all." Things you can't upgrade with standard parts on Most Dahons are headsets, handle bar styles, drive trains. Also, the BF has 16-speeds (could be more) while the Dahon has 9.

The Dahon does fold quickly and easily, period. The BF folds easily enough and should fit into your car. We easily get two of them into the back of our Toyota Yaris liftback.To see how easy it is to fold one, see the BF website. (FYI: There are two types of seat masts. The lower cost one (Easy Pack) is simply removed vs. their folding model.

Bottom line: The geometry on the BF is more like a normal bike (particularly a Pocket Rocket equipped with drops).

You could also visit the BF factory in Eugene, as we have done twice - that's not possible with Dahon.

There is also the matter of resale value. Fridays are easy to sell for a good price because of their quality and reputation. We love ours.

Lou

Can you elaborate?


See this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDKsCvDhCqI) (starting at 4:08). BTW, that video also shows how to fold a Swift, a Brompton, and a Tikit (all of which you should consider).



(all I need is to put them in the trunk of my car, 32" max dimension. I don't plan to air travel with them).


32" max dimensions is pretty tight. You're looking at a Dahon, a Downtube, or a Brompton most likely. I'm not sure if a pocket rocket or a tikit can be squeezed down into that space in their normal folds. Definitely bring your car to test when you try out these bikes.

The Mu SL is a very sexy bike - light, and very cool looking. Have played with one a bit at our local Dahon dealer. However, Dahons are not always easy to upgrade components on. (Note we own both brands and previously has two Boardwalk D7s).

The BF can be sized to fit you, whether the stock Sm, Med & Lge, or total custom build. The Mu is "one size fits all." Things you can't upgrade with standard parts on Most Dahons are headsets, handle bar styles, drive trains. Also, the BF has 16-speeds (could be more) while the Dahon has 9.
Lou

http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq271/edyago/Bicycle/Post/171020083436-1.jpg

Ultegra brifters, Dura-Ace FD/RD, 48/38 front, 12-25 back, etc.

So, uh... Changed handlebar style, entire drive train, brakes, and shifters.

@EdYago: nice to see your bike finished. Can we see a folded pic? Also, do you have heel clearance issues with the cantis? I'm considering them so I can run "normal" levers.

@kamtsa: BF PR and Dahon Mu SL are very different in riding style and foldability. I'd go with feijai and and FT and compare thusly:
- Mu SL vs BF Tikit
- Swift+upgrades vs BF PR

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=83234&d=1223402439

Remove the seatpost and you just might get it down to 32" in height.
Photo credit: forum member noteon.

http://www.bikefriday.com/2009

In terms of configurability, Bike Fridays leave the competition in the dust.

Here's a good BF page with honest opinions (e.g. "the Rohloff ... has a small proprietary cable that likes to break with Bike Fridays because it's put under too much strain by the long and tortuous path of the cables") on their gearing options:

http://www.bikefriday.com/gearing?time=current

Regards
T

If you're even considering a Pocket Rocket, it means you're not really interested in folding speed or compactness. In that case, the choice is clear: the pocket rocket is the far superior bike, no contest. Try 'em both, you'll find that out fast. The mu has a stunted top tube, has an upright riding position, and will feel like a noodle compared to the rocket. And will squeak. In this case, you might examine a Swift if you can find one.

But if you care about really being able to fold the bike regularly, the SL is definitely worth a look. At that price, I would also look at a Tikit hyperfold and model-T (to which I am partial as a fellow casual workout-er). As with the Pocket Rocket, make sure that you're testing on the right length Tikit for you.

I personally do not believe the SL competes well in its price range. If you're considering Dahons, you should look more where they tend to have higher value -- in the $700 range, like a Mu P8.

Have you ridden the SL? It's way way stiffer than the P8 due to the completely different stem design. And it's only upright if you are too big (its a small bike).

IMO the Mu SL is comparable to the Swift, differences being:
-the Mu SL is smaller bike, both folded and unfolded.
-the stock Mu SL is more expensive with better proprietary components while the stock Swift is cheaper with poorer standard components.

The tikit is a completely different animal which has few advantages for sticking in a car trunk for 10 mile rides and I'm very surprised to see people comparing it to the Mu SL.


32" max dimensions is pretty tight. You're looking at a Dahon, a Downtube, or a Brompton most likely. I'm not sure if a pocket rocket or a tikit can be squeezed down into that space in their normal folds. Definitely bring your car to test when you try out these bikes.

If it's going in the car then there's no reason everything needs to stay attached. If OP takes the wheels off just about any folder should fit.

I recommend the OP tries the Mu SL if he is smaller, the Swift if he is larger, and the PR only if none of the others fit. If you don't need the customization (usually fit) then BFs are a waste of money. They're heavy and have poor components unless you buy a model which costs more than a car.

Hate to say it, but I think Bike Friday fans are mostly people with fitting problems and old folks who don't appreciate modern light bikes. The Mu SL is clearly a better value than the PR; The question is whether or not it fits.

There is good informaition here but also quite a bit of nonsense .....
Easy to upgrade Dahons, very few Dahon propierty items, lots of custom stuff available.( I think I carry 8 different seatposts in 34 mm dia)
Whoever said its not possible to visit the Dahon factory ? As far as I know visitors are welcome in all the factories.
They dont feel like noodles ( unless you are overweight and pull on the handlebar like a dualslalom bike, sit down and spin and they are not a noodle) In fact there are quite a few people upgrading to thicker tires as they feel the frame being to stiff. ( older bikes froim years back indeed where much more flexible....

Makeinu has it pretty clear down .....

And another point.... Dahon buys components for 400000 bikes from the same supplier all over bike companies are buying their stuff... guess who is getting a MUCH better deal on that derrailleur, the little better rim, the saddle , everything ..no folding bike company can compete against that, That is partially the reason most Dahons are real bargains as long as you compare apples with apples ....

Thor

Hi all,

I a looking for decent folding bikes for casual workouts in the local trails (asphalt paved, 10-15miles at a time) and narrowed down the selection to two models:

* Dahon Mu SL $1200 MSRP (http://www.dahon.com/us/musl.htm)

* Low end Bike Friday Pocket Rocket 16 speeds, flat handle bar, $1200 MSRP (example 1 here http://www.bikefriday.com/pocketrocket)

Both Dahon and Friday Bike have dealers here (South SF Bay Area).

Having bikes that roles well and feel as close as possible to standard bikes is a big plus for me.

Any suggestion which one to choose?

Thanks,

Kam

Another flat bar bike to compare with would be a Pacific Reach Trekking .. terrific ride qualities with active suspension and riding on larger 451mm wheels.. this bike is one of the most stable, confidence inspiring small wheeled bikes I have ever ridden... and right now, is on special for considerably less money .. I have two here in the SF Northbay .. PM me if interested..

http://www.rad-innovations.com/Reach/DSC04290.JPG

Have you ridden the SL? It's way way stiffer than the P8 due to the completely different stem design. And it's only upright if you are too big (its a small bike).


I wasn't comparing the SL to the P8. I was comparing it to the Pocket Rocket, which is much stiffer.

I believe the SL has the same one-size-fits-all-sort-of geometry as other folding Dahons, which IMHO is a bit funky for any male of even moderate height. The top tube is the same length or shorter, I believe, than the one on the size *small* Tikit. And if I'm not mistaken, it's also much less stable than the rocket.

The pocket rocket and SL are different classes of bike. One is a real performance bike, the other is a decent ride but aimed more at "real" folding. I'd put the pocket rocket and the Swift in one category; and the SL its brethren (P8 and XL), and the Tikit, in the other category. The Brompton goes somewhere entirely elsewhere.



Hate to say it, but I think Bike Friday fans are mostly people with fitting problems and old folks who don't appreciate modern light bikes.


Wow. I think... that's precisely the opposite of me. I'm not old, I have totally average build, and I own a very light bike in addition to my tikit, which is decked out and weighty. And two ultralight Dahons.

My opinion of BF owners, except for the tikit people, is that they tend to be the "performance bike" aficionados of the folding world. They're the ones most likely to own $5000 carbon fiber bikes. (note: that's not me).

Hate to say it, but I think Bike Friday fans are mostly people with fitting problems and old folks who don't appreciate modern light bikes.


Makeinu has it pretty clear down .....

Nonsense.

http://www.bikefriday.com/roundup08

Regards
T

P.S. Sub 17-pound Pocket Rocket video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkUSPEVrjVU&NR=1)

http://www.bikefriday.com/sites/default/files/images/TIKIT-robspinkone-helduphigh.preview.jpg
http://www.bikefriday.com/tikit/robspinkone

... The top tube is the same length or shorter, I believe, than the one on the size *small* Tikit. ...

what is the top tube length of a size small Tikit? (and from where to where it is taken?) THX
Somna

what is the top tube length of a size small Tikit?

Wikipedia says it's 50cm.

I have compared standard Dahons (Helios, Speed) and a Large and a Medium Tikit in my lab. Fitted for an average height male (me), the distance from the top of the seatpost to the handlebars on the Dahons is slightly less than 2 inches shorter than on the medium Tikit. The small Tikit's top tube is 5cm shorter than the medium, likely putting it very slightly shorter than the Dahon length.

Fit is the big difference between the two. The further you are away from the average of Dahon's target audience the greater the advantage of a Bike Friday.

BTW, I would go with a low-end NWT before a Pocket Rocket given the brief description of your rides. Long story short, it has a more popular tire size -- in particular, a larger range of tire widths -- and a more hybrid-esque geometry.

Yes, BF owners likely tend to be taller, heavier, shorter, older and better-off financially (indicated by the high price and users exotic travel adventures) than the average folding bike rider. I fit the profile: 66 next month, 6'3" with long arms and legs and was willing to spend the $ - hey, you can't take it with you!

Obviously, the Mu SL can be modified as pictured above. The lower range bikes (such as our Boardwalks) are not as upgrade friendly.

Nice to know we could visit the Dahon Factory if we wished, Thor, but a bit more costly than the one-day drive the OP could make from SF to BF in Eugene, OR.

FYI: There is a new 2009 stock model known as the Pocket Sport for $995. It has drops and 406 wheels. http://www.bikefriday.com/node/7598

Also, removing the front wheel on my XL NWT takes the Max dimension (length) from 36" to just 28".

Yes, the Mu SL and the tikit are not comparable, and really, even a Speed 7 would handle a 10 mile ride if the terrain was relatively flat.

@EdYago: nice to see your bike finished. Can we see a folded pic? Also, do you have heel clearance issues with the cantis? I'm considering them so I can run "normal" levers.

@kamtsa: BF PR and Dahon Mu SL are very different in riding style and foldability. I'd go with feijai and and FT and compare thusly:
- Mu SL vs BF Tikit
- Swift+upgrades vs BF PR


http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq271/edyago/Bicycle/191020083449.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3242/3062461781_41f6ea1ece.jpg?v=0

I've had no issues with heel clearance because of the brakes.

woohooo I like I like .... double front sprocket ...
:-)

woohooo I like I like .... double front sprocket ...
:-)+1

Very nifty tuck-away of the drop bars!

Just a word on fitment of Dahon bikes. Take a look at my Yeah:

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/juried/Yeah/bikes_a003.jpg

Note the handlebars aren't way forwards. Nevertheless, I like a fairly stretched-out position on my bikes. To give an idea, with a 55cm top tube (most folders have this, eg the Swift), I have a 130mm stem. The Birdy with the sports stempost is just right.

Surprisingly, so is the Yeah. I think Dahons in general have a longer top tube to compensate for the stempost which is just plain upright.

Even more surprsingly, a while ago I saw a little old lady (70yo?) on the identical bike, riding with upright stance, and she was comfortable! I chatted with her for a few moments. So Dahon have got the recipe right. (Of course if you are very far away from average then you may be out of luck.) With some of the other bikes with stempost which angles forwards a bit, I see why this would result in a wider demographic fitment.

The SL comes with the adjustable Syntace stem but for all others I now have the aber Hallo Stem in my program as well .... works with all bikes ( 25.4 dia MTB type handlebar)
http://www.thorusa.com/dahon/accessories/handlebar.htm

thor

Go for the Mu if you need a small and fast fold.

Go for the Pocket Rocket if you want more fit options, more saddle options, or plan to fly with the bike.

How's that for simple? :P

Go for the Mu if you need a small and fast fold.

Go for the Pocket Rocket if you want more fit options, more saddle options, or plan to fly with the bike.

How's that for simple? :P


GOOD SUMMARY! and check-out the Pocket Sport.

That is cool ... the way that Mu with the drop bars fold.

Thanks everybody for the good feedback. After reading the opinions here and examining Pocket Rocket, Dahon Mu (am not sure what model but not SL) and Dahon Sport Pro TT, I decided to go with Pocket Rocket.

The Dahon models are definitely easier to fold, more compact and more practical and Thor has a nice set of accessories for them but they Pocket Rocket felt to me more like a 'real' solid bikes that will serve me for some time. (this is a purly subjective opinion of one layman). The Rocket Pocket fits the back of my small car and this is good enough for me as far as 'foldiness' goes.

Thanks again,

Kam

You definitely want to try the Mu first. It produces a very harsh ride. It folds fast and easily.

Bruce, can the reach fit in his trunk without removing the wheels? I think that the Reach is the nicest production travel bike out there. But like Bike Friday, it doesn't really fold for urban use. Maybe good for car transit, though.

Timo--The bike that Rob is holding there costs at least $5000. I think two people would be needed to hold up a regular Tikit.

Also, I'll make my usual plug for a Birdy. No U.S. support/distribution and difficult to get ahold of. But rides really well. My partner and I brought only one on our most recent trip, so we fight over who has to ride the full size bike. I would take a Birdy over a full sized bike. Wouldn't say the same for most other folders I've tried. (Moulton and Reach excepted.)

Thanks everybody for the good feedback. After reading the opinions here and examining Pocket Rocket, Dahon Mu (am not sure what model but not SL) and Dahon Sport Pro TT, I decided to go with Pocket Rocket.

The Dahon models are definitely easier to fold, more compact and more practical and Thor has a nice set of accessories for them but they Pocket Rocket felt to me more like a 'real' solid bikes that will serve me for some time. (this is a purly subjective opinion of one layman). The Rocket Pocket fits the back of my small car and this is good enough for me as far as 'foldiness' goes.

Thanks again,

Kam

Kam, I agree with you. I own a PR and an MU the PR definitely feels more like a regular bike. Don't get me wrong, i love my Dahon. But they are two different bikes as others have mentioned.

Mike

Hate to say it, but I think Bike Friday fans are mostly people with fitting problems and old folks who don't appreciate modern light bikes. The Mu SL is clearly a better value than the PR; The question is whether or not it fits.

OK.........Seems obvious you are not familiar with BF or the people that ride them.............Know what a Pocket Rocket Pro or Air Friday is................

Timo--The bike that Rob is holding there costs at least $5000. I think two people would be needed to hold up a regular Tikit.

Agreed, that's probably an expensive bike. But Bike Fridays are not only for people unable to appreciate modern lightweight bikes -- they can be configured to be very light.

But more importantly, weight is talked about so disparagingly that a few (often irrelevant) pounds might cause people to strike a bike from their "must take test ride" list, even though the bike could be very well suited to their purposes (and also have a good dealer network and excellent product support and take standard parts that are easily found).
Regards
T

Bruce, can the reach fit in his trunk without removing the wheels? I think that the Reach is the nicest production travel bike out there. But like Bike Friday, it doesn't really fold for urban use. Maybe good for car transit, though.



The Reach is easily one of the best riding travel bikes out there... I'm sure as more are produced and get into the hands of savvy cyclists, the name will be much better known.. the bike is extremely capable over most road conditions .. just yesterday I had to take a customer's Alfa Spider to an upholstery shop about 10 miles away for a new top.. I took my Reach Trekking for the ride back to my shop.. it easily fit into the trunk of the Alfa... you do have to remove the front wheel (enclosed cam Q/R :) ) a quick release at the rear shock and the rear triangle (with rear wheel attached) folds up into the front suspension fork (where the front wheel was) and a quick release at the handlebar post to lay the handlebar asssembly flat so the deck lid would close (only 12" vertical clearance in an Alfa trunk)... when I got to the upholstery shop, the guys stood in amazement as I pulled the Reach out of the trunk and unfolded it into a road going machine... what's nice with the Trekking, and the expedition rack installed, the bike will stand on the rack in both unfolded and folded modes which makes it pretty nice for not having to lean it up against anything ... some point soon, I will probably take some pictures and say a few words about the Trekking.. I did a little write up awhile back on the Reach Road, and much of the feel is the same albeit with a more upright riding position.

Timo--The bike that Rob is holding there costs at least $5000. I think two people would be needed to hold up a regular Tikit.


Come again? The Mu P8 and Tikit are almost exactly the same weight: about 24 pounds. I can easily heft both over my head, and I'm not strong. (Not at the same time of course :-) )

The Reach is easily one of the best riding travel bikes out there... I'm sure as more are produced and get into the hands of savvy cyclists, the name will be much better known.. the bike is extremely capable over most road conditions .. just yesterday I had to take a customer's Alfa Spider to an upholstery shop about 10 miles away for a new top.. I took my Reach Trekking for the ride back to my shop.. it easily fit into the trunk of the Alfa... you do have to remove the front wheel (enclosed cam Q/R :) ) a quick release at the rear shock and the rear triangle (with rear wheel attached) folds up into the front suspension fork (where the front wheel was) and a quick release at the handlebar post to lay the handlebar asssembly flat so the deck lid would close (only 12" vertical clearance in an Alfa trunk)... when I got to the upholstery shop, the guys stood in amazement as I pulled the Reach out of the trunk and unfolded it into a road going machine... what's nice with the Trekking, and the expedition rack installed, the bike will stand on the rack in both unfolded and folded modes which makes it pretty nice for not having to lean it up against anything ... some point soon, I will probably take some pictures and say a few words about the Trekking.. I did a little write up awhile back on the Reach Road, and much of the feel is the same albeit with a more upright riding position.Just a few weeks ago I tried fitting my Birdy into one of those stripey cheap zipped bags. It did fit. Then I looked at the Reach. Removing the back wheel, it also fits. So the Reach doesn't fold all that small but the difference isn't that much either. Remove the back wheel and it matches the Birdy or any 20" Dahon. :thumb:

Ok, Ok. I'm just posting a pic to do it. Forget about weight, speed, foldability, etc. Concentrate on cool...........


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3057/2837481941_c3594162eb_b.jpg

Ok, Ok. I'm just posting a pic to do it. Forget about weight, speed, foldability, etc. Concentrate on cool...........


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3057/2837481941_c3594162eb_b.jpg


Now that is one sweeeet Folder!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

just yesterday I had to take a customer's Alfa Spider to an upholstery shop about 10 miles away for a new top.. I took my Reach Trekking for the ride back to my shop.. it easily fit into the trunk of the Alfa... you do have to remove the front wheel (enclosed cam Q/R :) ) a quick release at the rear shock and the rear triangle (with rear wheel attached) folds up into the front suspension fork (where the front wheel was) and a quick release at the handlebar post to lay the handlebar asssembly flat so the deck lid would close (only 12" vertical clearance in an Alfa trunk)...

I have never tried to put my XXL (62cm) NWT in the trunk of my '74 ALFA Spider, but bet if I removed the front wheel I could easily do so. I could likely get my wife's 53cm Crusoe in it without removing the rear wheel. The Friday's are down south right now, so I can't actually try it.

Lou

Now that is one sweeeet Folder!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But what's the jolly lever for?

But what's the jolly lever for?

That is/was a "stick shift" for a rear derailer.

That is/was a "stick shift" for a rear derailer.

Internal SA AW hub. I think all the members of the Vienna Boy's Choir were given these bikes to keep them singing soprano. One of these bikes just sold on eBay for $4,500 I got mine for $12.

Internal SA AW hub. I think all the members of the Vienna Boy's Choir were given these bikes to keep them singing soprano. One of these bikes just sold on eBay for $4,500 I got mine for $12.

I had one back in my soprano days (but survived intatto). Mine had a 5-speed derailleur. Is the SA hub a retrofit or original?

Regards
T

I have never tried to put my XXL (62cm) NWT in the trunk of my '74 ALFA Spider, but bet if I removed the front wheel I could easily do so. I could likely get my wife's 53cm Crusoe in it without removing the rear wheel. The Friday's are down south right now, so I can't actually try it.

Lou

Let us know how that goes if you ever get your Alfa and BF's together again. .. and how long it took you, and if you left the spare tire in it's well... no cheating :lol: