Tandem Cycling - Does captain's upper body movement cause problems for stoker?

We're looking for some advice about the best way to ride a tandem. We've just about got the basics down after a few rides, and we're getting close to getting the fit right for both of us. We now want to work on getting our riding smoother. We'd welcome any general tips, but I do have one specific question. As background info, we're both very experienced on single road bikes, and now have a Co-motion Speedster co-pilot.

Apparently, when captaining, my upper body moves around quite a bit, especially when putting more power into the pedals. The stoker in particular complains about my shoulders rolling. She says that this seems to make the bike move around a lot and because my shoulders are in the middle of her visual field it makes it more difficult for her to stay steady on the back and not move around herself. I think this is the way I ride my single, and so I'd have to learn to adapt my style to remove the problem (apparently I wasn't very successful when trying to move less during our most recent ride). However, I'm wondering how much of a problem this really is and whether it is really something that we need to change.

I figure that if I am causing the bike to steer through my movements then this is very straightforward for me to correct for with steering as the captain. Also, is it reasonable to expect the stoker's balance to be affected by the captain moving around a bit in front of him/her? I've read a lot about handling being adversely affected by the stoker moving around, and experienced this first hand, but I haven't read much about whether the captain moving around can cause any problems.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this problem in particular, or any more general comments on how to make our riding smoother.

I suspect if you're rolling your shoulders you're also causing a slight side-to-side sway or leaning movement of the tandem that your stoker must now deal with as their saddle and the tandem shifts right-to-left with each of your pedal strokes.

It's a bit different than stoker steering since you're the one rocking the boat whereas with stoker steering you must react and counter the stoker's movements. As the captain you don't notice it because you're the cause and immediately deal with the effect as something of a learned habit. For example, as I've noted in previous postings I tend to be a bike thrower when climbing or sprinting in a big gear. Therefore, even though the tandem is being thrown side-to-side with each pedal stroke, the tandem is traveling in a very straight line because I'm working the handlebars to counter each lean of the bike. If Debbie wasn't standing with me she'd be thrown around like a sack of potatoes and I'd have a hell of a time controlling the tandem.

As for how to eliminate it, intuitively I would suspect you are pushing big gears with a low cadence hence the rolling shoulders and power stroke. If that's the case, then using smaller gears with a higher cadence should smooth things out. However, that's just a guess based on what you've described. Again, going back to my own example of climbing, the extent to which I throw the tandem varies with gear size and cadence. The smaller the gear and the higher the cadence the less the tandem sways. It's all pretty straight forward once you realize what you're doing. In fact, in some respects riding a tandem is a lot like riding rollers in that it can reveal a lot about your riding style and mechanics.

Just my .02.

Thanks for the input, TG. Unfortunately, pedaling with a low cadence cannot have anything to do with it. I typically pedal in the 80-100 range, even when climbing, and I normally change gears more often than most people to keep it in a tight range of 90-95. My stoker is more like 70-85 on her single bike, and so far we've been pedaling the tandem more in my comfort zone than in hers, but I've been shifting a bit less than normal - we've probably been mostly riding in the 75-95 range. There have been no complaints so far from the stoker regarding cadence, and she's recently been trying to use a higher cadence when on her single also.

Unfortunately, pedaling with a low cadence cannot have anything to do with it. I typically pedal in the 80-100 range, even when climbing,

As I said, intuitively that would have been my first guess. With the added information it sounds like you simply have developed a rocking motion as a normal part of your riding style. You're hardly alone in this regard as I've seen all kinds of interesting riding styles and ticks over many years of riding tandems, noting that having two riders in front of you on the same bike seems to make those ticks a lot more obvious than they are when folks ride single bikes.

I'm not sure how you 'fix' something like that without a coach and some focused effort. Moreover, perhaps it really is just a visual thing for your stoker if the movement is confined to your shoulders and isn't 'rocking the boat' as it were.

Ideally, you'd want to find someone to ride with who can follow y'all on your tandem to look at how your riding as they'd be able to confirm if there's anything more to it than a slight shoulder roll. Hopefully as others wake up and log on you'll get some more useful feedback.

Similarly to TG, I used to move the tandem while standing to power the rig. It took a couple of outings and I managed to stop doing it. If you are moving your shoulders while seated at high cadence your form isn't good. Maybe your stoker is trying to take this opportunity to help you correct a bad habit.

You might need to find a more magical compromise on cadence. Like yourselves we would prefer to spin at two different rpms. If the bike starts to get a hopping feel through the frame I realize I need slow the revs, and conversely, especially when climbing if not asked to downshift the rear starts swaying as the stoker effort increases.

In regards to rocking, this may seem obvious based on your experience level, but could the saddle be set to high, causing you to also roll your lowers?

Just some additional thoughts

PK

When my wife and I began riding the tandem three years ago after years of riding singles we both found out how much we moved around on our singles. Our test rides of tandems after 30 years of singles capped by an across America trip in 2005 were almost comical. My wife had been the one resistant to trying a tandem. I had high expectations and when we took off on the test rides of three tandems I couldn't believe how awful it felt - wobbly like a flexible noodle. Our individual body movements weren't together at all. Even more surprising to me was my wife said it was better than she thought it would be. It was then I realized how low her expectations were for the tandem. Well, we ordered one and within six months it was and still is her preferred way to ride.

It is disconcerting for both captain and stoker to have the other moving around. While you are correcting your own movements conciously or unconciously to keep the bike going down the road the stoker still feels like they are being moved or thrown from side to side.

I imagine that you will learn to stop moving your upper body as much. Finding whether you need to relax your shoulders or relax your grip on the bars or something else will be part of the fun. One of your comments implied that your movement in her visual field was distracting as well but I am assuming (possibly incorrectly) that is the physical movement in the bike that is the most bothersome.

You mentioned the differences bwtween you and your stoker's preferred cadence. My wife would honestly prefer a cadence of 75 to 80 rpm. I would prefer 90 to 100 rpm. We ride 85 to 90 most of the time on the tandem. She feels uncomfortable at the higher cadences. She is very uncomfortable at 95 and she would rather just walk than pedal at 100 rpm. She will tap on my thigh when the cadence gets too high for her. She's always had 170 cranks on singles and the tandem. I imagine that she could and would be able to feel comfortable at a higher cadence with a shorter crank arm length while I keep the 175 but we do OK.

For us, part of what has made the tandem successful is the development of a smoothness. We are both quite aware of the others movements. She appreciates it if I tell her I am going to drink just so she expects the movement. If she doesn't say anything I can still tell when she needs a butt break when I feel her move around on her seat. She can stand at any time on hills and I don't mind that movement at all. She doesn't rock the bike when she stands and it feels smooth to me, just with extra power. However I cannot stand with her sitting because I want to rock the bike enough that her seated weight makes the bike feel awkward for me.

Have fun learning to observe the subtle movements you both make and to eliminate some of them and coordinate some of them.

We were back on our singles this fall for a few hundred miles to ride with a friend new to riding and one of our sons so that we wouldn't feel like we were riding so slow. We had a great time riding singles but the smoothness and speed of riding our tandem is a wonderful feeling.

Your comments also reminded me of giving my 84 year old dad a ride in my car a couple of weeks ago. It's a manual transmission and as we went along my dad said, "When I was driving a manual I would want to see if I could drive it so the passengers thought I had an automatic." We all laughed and I smoothed out the shifting for a while. :)

Bloomington, IN
3 years and about 15,000 miles on the tandem

Tandeming is not doing as you please, like on your single bike.
Tandeming is a 'team' effort and each rider may have to change some of their riding habits to become a team. By your posting you are recognizing the problem; now it's time to take corrective measures.
We have 220,000+ miles of pedaling TWOgether . . . it works!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

I would suggest that you concentrate on keeping your upper body as still as possible as you pedal. Upper body movement is not good pedalling style nor is it efficient use of your energy.

It would help you to understand what she's experiencing if you were to stoke for someone else. Otherwise it's hard to appreciate the stokers vulnerable position of having a stronger captain control everything while blocking their view. If stoker says your motions are a problem, then they are a problem and they're probably wasted energy too. I've found it really annoying to have to change habits that work well for me but it doesn't take too long to learn new methods.
We have cadence ranges similar to yours and if I keep it in my range then I do most of the work. Slow down to her range and our speed goes up and I don't burn out. There are some physical reasons (femur length, saddle setback, etc.) for many women to want a slower cadence.
Each team works these things out differently. Good luck!
Ed

This is a "form" issue that, (as TG alluded to), a set of rollers will correct. Rollers accentuate most any movement to the tune of roughly double. Anything that causes the bike to veer left and right or bounce up and down will become painfully obvious to you without the expense of hiring a coach!

So if you're in the habit of pedaling the bike with your shoulders, it'll not only show up real quick, you'll correct it real quick! And, if not your power, then at least your endurance will increase as you learn to eliminate any movement not necessary to hold the bike in a straight line and move it down the road.

Not to mention, you'll make the stoker happpier! :)

Thanks for all the useful advice. I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned needing to overcome a similar issue themselves. As for what the main part of the problem is, the stoker says its mostly the distraction in her visual field that my upper body movement causes (making it harder for her to stay still), and any induced bike movement seems to be a secondary and unconfirmed result that so far hasn't bothered her as much. Regardless of that, I would still like to correct this if possible, everyone here seems to agree that it is undesirable.

Using some rollers to improve my form sounds like a great idea, I might give that a go if I can justify the additional expense of the rollers. Switching positions and taking a turn as a stoker is also something that we plan to do. We're similar sizes, so we've been planning to do this, but my stoker has so far been apprehensive about taking control of the machine. She's getting used to the idea now though, and is keen to give it a try - I think it will teach us both a lot.

One other suggestion was that my saddle height may be a little high. I think this is unlikely as other people have previously commented that I had mine too low. I did some measurements and actually raised it by a few mm's this year and it now seems right. The movement certainly doesn't seem to be coming from the lower body, my shoulders certainly seem to be the focus of it.

As for cadence, I haven't noticed a difference in the amount of power that the stoker can offer when riding at different cadences, it always seems to be fairly good. She's happy to spin a bit faster than she normally would; she has had knee problems and really wants to get in the habit of spinning more. However, it sounds like we should pay more attention to this on our next ride and try reasonable lengths of time at higher and lower cadences and see how we get on. One advantage we have is that despite our similar sizes, the captain's cranks are 172.5 and the stoker's are 170. I'm used to 170 on my single bike, so although the difference is small it should hopefully encourage me to slow down a little to her pace. However, this is one argument against me being the stoker permanently.

If you have any more thoughts or suggestions, then please keep them coming!

I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned needing to overcome a similar issue themselves. As for what the main part of the problem is, the stoker says its mostly the distraction in her visual field that my upper body movement causes (making it harder for her to stay still), and any induced bike movement seems to be a secondary and unconfirmed result that so far hasn't bothered her as much. Regardless of that, I would still like to correct this if possible, everyone here seems to agree that it is undesirable.

Interesting, my wife has never complained about the "visual" movement. But when we started tandeming I had a very bad habbit of rocking the bike when climbing (on my single I really threw it around).

I assume you are having this issue while on the flats too.

Short of a blindfold on the stoker :P maybe your front end needs some tuning? You could try raising the handlebar to a more upright position or trying different length stems or wider handlebars.

From a recent example, my stoker found a temporary captain for a 100 mile ride (that I wanted to do on my single). He is a tandemer too, but made a few adjustments to my "cockpit" that included a much longer stem than I am used to (with a greater angle for a more upright position). Just out of interest I took the bike out with his configuration and absolutely hated it (handling and all). It also made me a bit more "wobbly".

It could be something as simple as this that is causing the movement. I tend to find the setup on the tandem is quite a bit different to that on my single.

Also depending on how long you have been riding the tandem, it took probably 500+kms of riding before we really started to feel comfortable and in sync. Time together will fix many things :D

It would be quite interesting to know if it is just your shoulders rocking or the whole bike. As said above, I never notice how much I am moving the bike until someone behind me tells me off, but the slightest twitch from the back and it really upsets things (although I am used to it now). Maybe the rollers or hehe for a bit of fun a blindfold on the stoker so she can tell you if it is the bike or your sholders :P

When stoker Malkin and I started riding about 3,000 miles ago, she often commented on my shoulder sway as a point of form. I've mostly fixed the bad habit using rollers to strengthen my core and balance and ongoing reminders (very gentle and always welcome) from stoker Malkin. The smoother the ride, the happier we both are. I do notice that when I get tired at the end of a long ride, my form suffers and I tend to sway more than when I'm strong and fresh.

I'll echo what zonatandem (hi rudy!) said: riding a tandem is a team sport. Each rider contributes to the other's experience. The captain should do anything possible to improve the experience for the stoker.

Final comment: I find riding the tandem, riding my commuter, and riding my fixie to be three completely different experiences. Each requires a different set of skills and provides unique enjoyment.

Cheers!

It's not the shoulders; it's the legs. The shoulder movement is probably just in reaction to a weak spot in the pedal stroke. You don't need rollers, specifically. A trainer or a spin bike in the gym (with clipless pedals) will help, too. You just need a mirror. Practice pedaling so that your upper body and head don't move at all when seated at any cadence. You should find that if you add power to the back three-quarters of the pedal stroke, your shoulders will stop moving. One legged pedaling drills are a big help, too. Again, no body motion. Out on the road on your single, you can climb a long 3-6% hill in a huge gear, so that your cadence is around 50, again no upper body movement, just smooth power all the way 'round the stroke. Hands on the bar tops helps focus.

After a few months of that, your seated climbing rate should improve, too.

I have short legs and our used Speedster came with 175 captain's cranks. Huge for me, but it does get my cadence down to more like 85, which is good for stoker who is also struggling a bit with 170 instead of 165. Someday, if we wear them out, we'll replace both BBs and cranksets. Looking forward to trying to wear them out.

If you don't look cute doing it, your stoker isn't going to like it.
Remember, we're watching you!

;)