General Cycling Discussion - You get what you pay for

Spent yesterday afternoon assembling a bike that a guy I know bought off the internet for his wife for Christmas.

It's a cruiser, single speed, coaster brake. So I pick up the box and take it back to the shop in my garage. I'm already a little disappointed that this guy, with a very high profile job in local government, didn't elect to buy from either lbs, even though one just suffered a smash-and-grab burglary the week before.

His rationale: "My wife's probably only going to ride it twice, so I shopped price."

Here are my impressions of his $150 bike: 1. Box has some damage.
2. Shiny black frame appears to be OK, even though the plentiful decals are all bubbled. Check headset: so tight it's almost impossible to turn. Fix that.
3. Wheels are steel, painted pink. Wait a minute! Busted spoke in the front wheel. Obviously some side impact was suffered, because the spoke is bent in and the nipple split. Fix that.
4. Mega saddle goes on the steel seatpost and everything goes smoothly.
5. Ditto megabars.
6. Front fender mounts OK, but when the front wheel got mounted, was wayyy off, so I had to bend the stays a bit (not adjustable). Fixed.
6. Drop front wheel into the dropouts. Uhohhh.... The left front dropout is bent inward, probably from the same side impact. Cold set it most of the way, grind the dropout out (goodbye shiny black paint), repaint and wait to dry. Fixed.
7. Check rear end. Cranks barely turn. The rear wheel is at the very inside end of the dropouts. Probably saved two or three chain links. Reset the back wheel and it spins.
8. Now, where are those pedals? Nope! Not in the box. Go to the old parts bin and find a pair of near-new "disposables." Fixed.
9. Park the bike -- at least the kickstand works out of the box.

Here's what he got for his $150: a $150 bike. No brand name anything. A guy who used to run one of the local shops used to complain about how he was inundated with these things every year the week after Christmas. Some of them were such basket cases he refused to let them into his shop.

Lesson I guess: shop local when you can. I'm waiting on a custom frame (I'm big -- 64 cm), but there's a set of wheels and parts waiting at the lbs.

i agree, you do get what you pay for, but when did we all start hating on cheap, entry level bikes anyways? i've owned many high level bikes (cannandales, specializeds, schwinns, marins, diamond backs, paramounts, univegas and others) as well as cheap bikes like huffy, next, murray, ross and kent and i have been able to fix them all. i've never turned away a cheap bike and have got more of them on the roads to stay than all my other higher end bikes.

"inundated with these things..." and "some of them were such basket cases he refused to let them into his shop.", as if they were some monstrocities, diseased with non name brand components and cheap frames. i can't believe a bike shop would refuse to service lower level bikes. is it they can't work on them or WON'T work on them? i can do it, and i am nothing special. isn't that what it is all about? just the fact we are out there riding and that can fix all bikes, and not just the ones we want to work on? not everyone can afford $400 plus bikes shop "quality" bike and they shouln't be looked down on, and those who do look down on them and their cheap bikes just don't get it.

Wal Mart has got a certain crowd thinking $69.00 is the right price for a bike. When you talk to them, they want you to justify why you paid so much more. They really can't understand what I paid for my recumbent. I just figure that cheap goods are meant for cheap people. bk

is it they can't work on them or WON'T work on them? i can do it, and i am nothing special. isn't that what it is all about?

Our employer expects us to make a profit.
It comes down to the people with the cheap bikes are often unwilling to pay what it cost to fix them. The labor charge to perform repair "X" is the same regardless of the cost of the bike. So the guy with the $70 bike is often shocked that it might cost $20+ to true his wheels. We never turn a bike away but I do require deposits on cheap bikes because they ,often, are not picked up otherwise.

just chuck... that is a very valid point. maybe those are the ones who should do what i did and pick up a basic bike repair book and learn to do some basic repairs.

as far as the $20 bucks to true his wheels, i hope that is for both but $20 is the most anyone should have to pay for that.

that is rather sad someone with a $70 bike would abandoned their bike at the bike shop and taking the deposit is a wise move.

Hi,

Not to quibble, but the bikes my friend refused were big box junk, the kind with crimped in dropouts. He deemed them to be barely safe in good condition. With a frame in need of coldsetting and steel rims badly out of true (they can't be re-trued) I think he was doing a safety service.

I still like the guy, but I wonder what my services would have been worth. Repack bearings, re-adjust everything, install fenders, bar, stem, saddle and post, lube chain, coldset front left dropout and grind droput before repainting. I'm not asking anyone to give me salaams, but for crissakes, had he gone to the lbs, he could have gotten a great cruiser for under $300. Had he paid for my services, he would have come out about even, supported a local business, gotten himself free service and discounts down the road, and put sales tax into local government. Seems like a no-brainer.

is it they can't work on them or WON'T work on them?

Another consideration may be liability, if its a Bike-like-object that is not going to be truly safe to ride no matter what they do (ever heard the saying 'you can't polish sh*t'?) then the LBS may not want to have their good name associated with something that may very well end up getting someone injured when it breaks down again later(think lawsuits).

Hi,

Not to quibble, but the bikes my friend refused were big box junk, the kind with crimped in dropouts. He deemed them to be barely safe in good condition. With a frame in need of coldsetting and steel rims badly out of true (they can't be re-trued) I think he was doing a safety service.

I still like the guy, but I wonder what my services would have been worth. Repack bearings, re-adjust everything, install fenders, bar, stem, saddle and post, lube chain, coldset front left dropout and grind droput before repainting. I'm not asking anyone to give me salaams, but for crissakes, had he gone to the lbs, he could have gotten a great cruiser for under $300. Had he paid for my services, he would have come out about even, supported a local business, gotten himself free service and discounts down the road, and put sales tax into local government. Seems like a no-brainer.

Yeah...but you did it for FREE! I have rebuilt many a low end bike over the years, the labor always costs more than the bike. Ditto what justchuck says too. When I worked at the LBS we used to get stuff left behind all the time. I has someone ask me the other day where to get a new rear wheel for a BSO from WM. My suggestion was the LBS. A new fairly low end wheel was going to cost 75% the price of a new BSO from WM...so guess where they headed...:rolleyes:

Too many people look at the price and don't take into consideration the true "cost". It is the $100 vs $99.95 mentality. ;)

Aaron:)

Wal Mart has got a certain crowd thinking $69.00 is the right price for a bike. When you talk to them, they want you to justify why you paid so much more. They really can't understand what I paid for my recumbent. I just figure that cheap goods are meant for cheap people. bk
Or the low income single mother of four who just wants to make her kid happy.

I finally got my very first new bicycle at the age of 9. It was an inexpensive ($39?) Roadmaster from back in the day. Everybody else was getting Schwinn Stingrays. I was lucky to get what I got. That bike got me through four years of riding and from it grew my love of cycling. The only problem I had with it was when it was stolen.

as far as the $20 bucks to true his wheels, i hope that is for both but $20 is the most anyone should have to pay for that.

That might be another one of those "you get what you pay for" things.

Trueing wheels goes from "I don't want to waste the time it takes to ring it up" to "You need a new wheel".

if he got a decent bike then maybe his wife would like riding more


starting out on junk...no one wants to ride, 'cuz it sucks from day 1

smack your friend around will ya ?

I think of the low end bikes as entry level bikes. Somewhere a kid might not have a bike because the family can't afford a lot of money.I have seen a lot of these bikes that were passed around from kid to kid. Everyone learned how to ride on that bike and it looked it.
The OP said his friend's wife may only ride it once or twice. If she reilly got into biking I'm sure she would upgrade into something better. In the meantime, why not let the cheap bike take all the abuse until the rider becomes more experienced.

I see it all the time. I use to , but can no longer call a " low end bike, an entry level bike, due to the poor quality. Poor & incomplete welds that are already rusted sitting inside the store. We are so used to buying "CHEAP," that we buy anything JUST because it is so cheap. Counting for inflation,,, the $40 Sears, bike I bought in 1964,, in today's dollars,, would be $260 !! BUT,,,, we want & believe we can get a good bike for $69, today !!!
I am beginning to believe that if W Mart had bikes for $5 that were rusted in half, people would jump all over them, just because of the price.
I don't consider myself to be a bike mechanic, more a " shadetree " bike repair person. But, in the rural area where I live, people bring their bikes to me for repairs. I will be busy next week [ after Christmas ] , repairing & properly assembling ,those $69 bikes, that may already be broken. What do you think I should charge them for 2 hours worth of work, repairing their $69 bike ??

Or the low income single mother of four who just wants to make her kid happy. This just needed to be repeated.

Or the low income single mother of four who just wants to make her kid happy.

I finally got my very first new bicycle at the age of 9. It was an inexpensive ($39?) Roadmaster from back in the day. Everybody else was getting Schwinn Stingrays. I was lucky to get what I got. That bike got me through four years of riding and from it grew my love of cycling. The only problem I had with it was when it was stolen.

And the Roadmaster of 20-30 years ago is still a better bike today than the BSO that WM and many of the others are pushing for the $70-$100 price point today. I have a couple of old Roadmasters and Huffys from the early 70's and they are still viable bikes. I purchased a Huffy from WM this year to use as a disposable plant bike (corrosive atmosphere). I paid ~$80 for it. The rear hub self destructed in the first two weeks. Took it back for replacement, but they didn't have that bike in stock and wanted to try and "upgrade" me to something else or give me money back. Fortunately the district manager was in the store and told them to give me a wheel off of another bike that was similar. I still have that bike but the welds are rusty and were incomplete to begin with, if it lasts another year without structural collapse I will be greatly surprised.

Aaron:)

What do you think I should charge them for 2 hours worth of work, repairing their $69 bike ??

Exactly!

The reason they brought the bicycle to you is because the customer thinks that you have tools or knowledge that they lack. I'm thinking "start a stop watch and $30.00 an hour is fair" but the market probably won't support that.

I'm not money motivated but I don't like feeling that I've been taken advantage of either. I don't think there's a good answer to your question. Honestly, I'd rather do those jobs for free and leave them oweing me a favor.

i think an entry level bike is 3-400 dollars. i say this because bikes at walmart are below entry level, they are disposable. i dont buy anything that my life depends on that is poorly manufactured. my friends walmart bike had both brakes fail in the same day! another friend wiped out because the entire rear portion of his drive train imploded while he was standing on the pedals. an entry level lbs bike or used bike is under 400 bucks, thats a one time charge, its not like a car. if you can afford it by all means dont be a cheap ass. its not worth the headaches.

i wish box stores still sold single speed bmx sized (16'-20') bikes with coaster brakes, those are actually worth something and wont fall apart in an afternoon, i had a couple as a little kid and they worked fine. but no these days they have double suspension eleven hundred gears and crappy v brakes that are almost always installed wrong.

i feel bad for the low income single mother buying that for her kids

What do you think I should charge them for 2 hours worth of work, repairing their $69 bike ??

Friends, and selected neighbors who DON'T leave their bikes out in the snow all winter long, are always welcome to bring their ride to the backyard bbq. There's always a workstand set up. Some want some basic instruction/supervision and others will take charge of the cooking. I'll give it a fair assessment, get it running as best I can in an hour, and tell them to bring it to the next one for a little more work after they've put some more mileage on it. More often than not, the $100 bikes get upgraded to $400 bikes after a few bbq's, a few hundred miles with a few problems, and a few test rides on some others' bikes. After that, it's all justification. Only a few of my friends ride enough to justify anything over $600.

I won't skimp on the brakes though. I just let my junk box fill up with whatever low end and used brake parts I can scavenge.


Honestly, I'd rather do those jobs for free and leave them oweing me a favor.

I'll even babysit for sexual favors. :p

These bikes are what they are. They are cheap. Cheaply made and available to less fortunate folks than yourselves. Not every bike sold by big box is a death trap waiting for an unsuspecting rider to try to break the land speed record. They sell millions of them and if they were that bad the the lawyers would eat them up alive.
Read the other forums on this website and see the trials and tribulations that folks with higher end bikes are going through with their unique problems. Not only the "junk" has problems.

I won't skimp on the brakes though. I just let my junk box fill up with whatever low end and used brake parts I can scavenge.

That's one of the first things that I learned about messing with bikes: "Never throw away brake parts." Shifters and derailleurs on low end bikes honestly don't work that much differently than the good stuff. Brakes, on the other hand, are something else. I've spent tons of time trying to get low end brakes to work well enough to meet even my bare minimum standard. All those small parts like funny looking housing ferrals and cable anchor hardware come in handy when you're working on low end brakes.

Can sympathise with the OP's friend. A cheap bike will do to see if the wife wants to continue riding and you get what you pay for. But a cheap cruiser single speed? Can see that the less money spent will be less money wasted. Unless the wife is really keen- this quality of bike will turn her off biking for ever so no need to get another bike.

I have the job of maintaining the kids bikes in the road. All of them cheap but some of the parents did take my advice and got basic single speed bikes--of a particular type. I can work on those and keep them running. The full suspension with 15 gears are not easy to keep running-


One of my neighbours said he had a bike that needs servicing and sorting before he starts riding. I thought- OK- another Wallymart type bike to keep running. Saw it in his garage today- A Raleigh Blue Streak from about 1965. When I was 18 it was my Dream bike. Just hope it is in good enough condition to renovate.

Hello and Merry X'mas to everyone. I have no beef to debate on what is cheap or expensive, "you get what you paid for" means just that, when i first picked up my Schwinn Skyliner from Wallyworld's internet sales counter and took it home to see the bike, i knew exactly what i paid for, and it wasn't really that bad, it rode good and everything worked ,didnt expect too much for the price.

I seem to remember my dad paying $79.95 each in 1970 for three Royce-Union ten speeds from Gemco. These were steel rimmed low end bikes, but they were decent. Took a bit of fiddling to keep them going, but nothing ever broke badly.

I don't know what that works out to in todays dollars, but I'll bet that even the most expensive bike from Walmart or Target are way below this.

There's a minimum amount that you can pay for quality. The $85 mountain bike is just not going to hold up. Wobbly rims are acceptable on a coaster brake equipped cruiser, but not on a bike with rim brakes.

Wish that the single mommy of 4 could get decent bikes for $69.95. Wanting & deserving it don't mean it's going to happen.

I seem to remember my dad paying $79.95 each in 1970 for three Royce-Union ten speeds from Gemco. These were steel rimmed low end bikes, but they were decent. Took a bit of fiddling to keep them going, but nothing ever broke badly.

I don't know what that works out to in todays dollars, but I'll bet that even the most expensive bike from Walmart or Target are way below this.

There's a minimum amount that you can pay for quality. The $85 mountain bike is just not going to hold up. Wobbly rims are acceptable on a coaster brake equipped cruiser, but not on a bike with rim brakes.

Wish that the single mommy of 4 could get decent bikes for $69.95. Wanting & deserving it don't mean it's going to happen.

That would actually buy a pretty decent "entry level" bike in today's money. According to the inflation calculator (http://www.westegg.com/inflation/) it is about $423 in 2007 dollars. Somethings have improved; alloy rims are no longer considered state of the art, we have a huge selection of tires to chose from, drive trains have become more dependable and easier to operate, but they don't come on $69.95 bikes. If WM REALLY wanted to market a decent entry level bike I am sure they could do it for around $100. They have at least one on the rack right now that I have ridden and worked on and can generally recommend to anybody looking for a basic bike. That is the Mongoose Paver (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=8399245) it has a few minor issues, but nothing life threatening. My biggest concern is that WM doesn't cheapen it up in an attempt to lower the price point or raise the profit margin, as they are so fond of doing.

Aaron:)

The issue with walmart bikes isn't the bikes anymore; it's the assembly.

Gee, if he knows the wife isn't going to want to keep the bike, then maybe getting it isn't a very thoughtful gift in the first place?

Hi,

Not to quibble, but the bikes my friend refused were big box junk, the kind with crimped in dropouts. He deemed them to be barely safe in good condition. With a frame in need of coldsetting and steel rims badly out of true (they can't be re-trued) I think he was doing a safety service.

I still like the guy, but I wonder what my services would have been worth. Repack bearings, re-adjust everything, install fenders, bar, stem, saddle and post, lube chain, coldset front left dropout and grind droput before repainting. I'm not asking anyone to give me salaams, but for crissakes, had he gone to the lbs, he could have gotten a great cruiser for under $300. Had he paid for my services, he would have come out about even, supported a local business, gotten himself free service and discounts down the road, and put sales tax into local government. Seems like a no-brainer.

On the other hand, one can make a case for "free" mechanics stealing food from the mouths of LBS mechanics. I'm saying this with tongue in cheek, but, is it really that different from buying that hardware somewhere else. The LBS is a business like any other business. Competition will come from many directions and to stay in business, any shop must provide service and an environment that encourages the customer to do business there instead of somewhere else. For some customers, price is king, and it may not be possible to capture their business. For others, it will be the intangeables, and those are the customers that the LBS cannot afford to let go. Service and attitude, those are the real products that the LBS sells. The shiny hardware...........that's just the excuse to get the people into the shop.

If I had to start all over, I would of bought my first bike from a LBS. If one can afford a better bike than he/she should not cheap out. There is a huge disparity on performance and comfort from a xmart bike than a bike from a LBS. I started out with a Schwinn Ranger and it was nice at first and then the problems started to creep in. I gotten 2 flats for barely going offroad in some unpaved sidewalk with debris and rocks. It made cycling very unenjoyable.

So I decided to goto a LBS and buy a 2008 Trek 7.3 FX and couldn't be happier. The bike is much lighter, quick shifting, quick acceleration, and good speed.

Im not knocking xmart bikes at all. I see a purpose in them, very low income families depend on them for transportation. I love seeing the local hispanics that hang out at home depot on there xmart mountain bikes. I just like seeing people on bikes rather than cars at this point in my life.

If one can afford a good quality bike and not break the bank then they should buy a good quality bike from the start instead of a xmart bike. But again, if one cannot afford the means to buy a quality bike then xmart bike is at least a bike. Xmart bike is better than no bike. Another way to look at it, with the assembly and durability problems one can learn how to maintain to keep a bike rideable. It might not be enjoyable but it will be a valuable skill to have on your next bike.

You can buy a cheap bike locally or a expensive bike online so I don't see that distinction. Also while not to my tastes, I think that some of the really cheap bikes are surprisingly functional.

I bought a $599 bike online and rode it across the US 4244 miles coast to coast. It worked out well as did the two others that my companions rode. The experience would not have been better in any meaningful way if it were a $5000 custom bike. So I really don't agree with the "you get what you pay for" argument. You do need to spend enough so that it is suitable for the use you expect, but more money spent doesn't necessarily enhance the experience. I am not saying that the cheap cruiser will or will not be suitable for what the owner wants, but it is probably fine for at least some folks.

Many times I wish the local people would take their bikes, or buy their bikes at a local bike shop. But where I live there isn't one close by. It is a poor ,rural area & a LBS is not going to touch those " days after Christmas" falling apart bikes. I may not accept them, either.
It IS both the quality of the bike && the assembly that are lacking. I see W-Mart bikes with most screws loose , crooked seat & bars, brake cables installed on the wrong side, loose handlebar stems & pedals, wobbly wheels, & on & on. I was told that the W Mart assembler is a teenager & MUST assemble 4 bikes per hour !!! One woman brought a $59 bike to me some years ago, that she had ridden one time, the handlebars collapsed downward, & she fell. It too a good 2 hours to straighten it out, & then she still had a piece of junk. [ Roadmaster Mt. Fury ]
For those on a budget,,, I will say that I know an old guy who assembles for TARGET. He is not rushed, & when the bikes are finished, they are as solid as any bike shop could do. Their $140+Schwinn bikes, assembled by him, should be a good alternative. OR, do a Craigslist search & find a good used one. Have it checked out by someone with some experience.

You can buy a cheap bike locally or a expensive bike online so I don't see that distinction. Also while not to my tastes, I think that some of the really cheap bikes are surprisingly functional.

I bought a $599 bike online and rode it across the US 4244 miles coast to coast. It worked out well as did the two others that my companions rode. The experience would not have been better in any meaningful way if it were a $5000 custom bike. So I really don't agree with the "you get what you pay for" argument. You do need to spend enough so that it is suitable for the use you expect, but more money spent doesn't necessarily enhance the experience. I am not saying that the cheap cruiser will or will not be suitable for what the owner wants, but it is probably fine for at least some folks.

I agree but $600 bikes is actually really a good bike.... you right, it's not a $5000 bike but still, it has very good components compare to the basic bikes.
As long is the bike is well known brand that provides warranty and support, in case something goes wrong you should be fine and it does not matter if the bike sold for $500 or $5000.
There is one more thing people don't know about X Mart bikes which is the bike geometry, while the well known brands put a lot of thinking trying to create a more comfortable, efficient and pain free riding position, the X mart bikes are just bikes sold from a catalog to X Mart... no one really cares how is the riding position and the quality of the components and stuff like that....
If I had to choose between a $159.95 bike from X mart or $350-$400 entry level bike from LBS, hands down I would go with the LBS, first you get the service and second you get MUCH more bike... when you add the free tuneups the LBS gives you, the difference is the base price isn't really that much.

TC

Free tuneups?

OK, I'm a heel. I came home last night and we opened a Christmas card from the guy. There was $100 cash inside with a note suggesting we blow it on a nice dinner. As guilty as I feel, I still wish he'd spent the $150 cost of the bike, $100 to me, plus whatever in shipping, and bought a bike that wasn't twisted in shipping from the local bike shop.

attitude, those are the real products that the LBS sells.

Unfortunately, with many LBS's, that "attitude" is not worth selling and is a negative rather than a positive.

I have an LBS in town, that for the most part sells everything *above* MSRP. No value there to buy something that they don't install (helmet for example) and pay more for it than virtually everyone on the planet.

-R

Free tuneups?


I think he meant adjustments.

I think you do get what you pay for to a certain extent. I think the best value probably lies in the $400 to $800 bikes. Anything more and the benefit diminishes at the higher price points. You may save hundreds at a Walmart, but in the full life of that bicycle you may spend hundreds more to keep it going. I've learned my lesson before trying to "save" money with cheaper tools when I used to be in the construction trade. All of the cheaper tools that I bought did not last very long and had to be replaced with higher quality tools....

Free tuneups?

Yeah, I do mean tuneups and not only adjustments. my LBS gives free service including full tuneups for the first year.
I really don't think you need more than 3 tuneups for the first year assuming you ride 1000km each month unless you ride hard. I used to ride a lot but I don't recall doing a lot of tuneups.
Most LBS will give you some sort of benefit if you buy the bike from them.

I am not fortunated enough to visit any LBS bcz there are NONE in my town with population of 45K,two weeks ago,i had to travel 150 miles to buy my bike but it was my plan,the salesman was very helpful and i felt satisfied to made the purchase,we do have a local store which makes keys and fix commercial/residential door locks,also work on bikes but i have no knowledge of how good the guy is.BTW Darkmanx2g, how is your 7.3 doing? i only had one chance to ride mine and it started to rain 15 minutes after i took off in style,,X'mas will be a warm 50 some degree day for another ride before it gets really cold again.

......I think you do get what you pay for to a certain extent. I think the best value probably lies in the $400 to $800 bikes. Anything more and the benefit diminishes at the higher price points.....

Interesting theory. Think you might be on to something.

His theory is simple, the cost relates to benefit is not overwhelming for his needs.

I am not fortunated enough to visit any LBS bcz there are NONE in my town with population of 45K,two weeks ago,i had to travel 150 miles to buy my bike but it was my plan,the salesman was very helpful and i felt satisfied to made the purchase,we do have a local store which makes keys and fix commercial/residential door locks,also work on bikes but i have no knowledge of how good the guy is.BTW Darkmanx2g, how is your 7.3 doing? i only had one chance to ride mine and it started to rain 15 minutes after i took off in style,,X'mas will be a warm 50 some degree day for another ride before it gets really cold again.

The 7.3 fx is excellent. Just had its first tuneup after 4 months of use. Running smoothly. Only problem is I got addicted to cycling and now I want more speed and looking to purchase a dedicated road bike next year. Its still gonna be my primary commuter since it has a rack and has ability to go light offroad when needed. Enjoy your 2009 fx, I see yours already came with ergo grips. I added ergo grips and barends on my mine for more comfort (well worth it).

No value there to buy something that they don't install (helmet for example)

-R
We fit helmets and shoes. It can take longer than setting up bike. When it is a kid the helmet takes WAY longer. I believe that counts as install.

I think you do get what you pay for to a certain extent. I think the best value probably lies in the $400 to $800 bikes. Anything more and the benefit diminishes at the higher price points. You may save hundreds at a Walmart, but in the full life of that bicycle you may spend hundreds more to keep it going. I've learned my lesson before trying to "save" money with cheaper tools when I used to be in the construction trade. All of the cheaper tools that I bought did not last very long and had to be replaced with higher quality tools....


Interesting theory. Think you might be on to something.

I know he is:thumb: once you go over a certain price point the durability goes down and you are paying for weight savings, the cutting edge technology and the bragging rights. Some of the high tech stuff does have a trickle down potential, but it is only a small percentage of what I see out there.

Most of my bikes when new were in that price range. I have a certain Giant Iquana that has had the living crap ridden out of it, but still keeps on rolling with minimal hassle and parts. It is being reborn as an Expedtion Tour bike. One thing that can run the price of a bike up is add ons like fenders, lights, racks and generators. It is up to each individual to decide if they are of value to you or not. I have found the middle of the road equipment to be the best VALUE most of the time. Unfortunately too many people in this day and age shop price only..."they know the price of everything and the value of nothing"

Aaron:)

I'd like to point out for the record that there is a world of difference between a $69 18" wheel diameter 1-speed bike with a hardtail frame and a $69 26" wheel diameter 18-speed bike which supposedly has shocks, etc.

The former is something which should exist, and could very well be of passable quality. The latter is something which is not possibly of good quality.

Our local bike charity works on Wal-mart bikes. About 1/2 of the 1-speeds are fine. And the hardtail multi-speeds are ok. But those suspensions . . . man.

His theory is simple, the cost relates to benefit is not overwhelming for his needs.

Yes, it is simple. The increment for saving a pound or improving components gets more and more expensive each level you progress.

The more I think about this, drums and bikes are very similar as far as price.... You see bikes at Walmart as well as drum sets with the brand name First Act and they are of toy quality. I would love to spend 15 minutes playing on a set of those and return them back to the store....with all heads broken, dented/cracked cymbals and probably some broken hardware too. You could spend $500 and have a kit that is stage worthy (not including cymbals).