Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - Gearing

i just got a new toy the other day. its a surly pacer and i havn't decided what gearing i want to run yet. my question is what type of gearing do you guys run for long distance. i will be spending alot of time in the hills and mountains of NH and maine.

i plan on running a triple on the front. currently it is a double with 43/53 in the front and 12/27 in the rear. on my fuji i have a stock triple on the front and a 12/22 on the rear. it is not so fun climbing in the mountains of maine and then not enough for the downhills and descents. now that i have the pacer i can put more of a race setup on the fuji.

What gearing do you guys recommended?

This is merely a thought. A couple randonneur friends of mine have successfully been riding a double with a 44/30, using a white industry crank. With a larger cluster on the back. They are both strong long distance riders who ride brevets and swear that spinning a big gear to get it above 30mph is a waste (I agree, its time to coast) and these two with a top of 44 and, I believe, a 12 on the back have no problems with club rides at all. Again, I may do this as well. An unusual ride set up that I hadn't seen before.

i'm running a ta carmina with 94 bcd so i can run a 30/44 combo if needed.
i'm currently running a 32/46 front with a 13-29 rear. i sit in the 'big ring' most of the time. i have a series of rings for the front - from a 'standard' 34/50 combo down to a 30/42 combo.

as you go faster you have to fight the air more than gravity. one needs to be comfortable with where you want to spend their energy. i'd rather work harder climbing, where more of my effort gets me up the climb, than work harder going 'fast' where air resistance fights me much harder than gravity (above a certain speed.) having lower gears for longer rides makes sense to me... and when i rode my first brevet series i had a road triple - i rarely used the big ring.

at 120 rpm you'll be going upwards of 42 mph in the 53/12. at 130 rpm over 45 mph. (assuming a 700x28 tire.

For what it's worth, at the moment my LD bike is also set up for touring, so I like to go low; I currently use a triple (48-36-30) with a very wide cassette (11-34). For something that wide, I had to change from a mid-cage (road) rear derailleur to a long cage (mtb).

I might even lower the front a bit more if that turns out to be insufficient. I prefer spinning to mashing, and use bar-end shifters instead of STI.

i've got a 34/50 compact on my pacer, with 12-27 (10 sp) in the rear.

for our mountain brevets i either ran that or a 39x53, 11-25 setup.

but a lot of it depends on whether you like to grind or spin.. i feel like going less than 34x27 and you're barely moving. then again it depends on your goal(s).

i also think it depends on what kind of climbing you do - northeast, with its shorter, but steeper climbs and the endless sharp rollers or the 'big climbs' of the west - long stretches at more moderate pitches.

and don't forget about how long your event is.
will you want that 32x29 combo on day 3 of and event?


i was happy running a 34/50 compact setup for a ne brevet series... but i really got tired of shifting, and i rarely used the larger combinations. figure out what combos you use most... and start from there.

thanks for all the input. i will be doing alot of long distance rides this year. the only reason i mentioned the decent is because of the area i generally work out in when i go on vacation. its very hilly and back to back so if im cranking down the back side of the hills the next hill isnt a grind (and it cuts my times down by minutes over 40 to 60 mile rides). they are not that big but they are steep grades. i still plan on using a triple but i think ill run smaller gearing then i thought of on the first and second and still run a 53 on the large ring. im not the greatest climber. its pretty flat where i live but when im up in the mountains, doing 40 or 50 mph down the back side is my motivation to keep climbing my fat ass over the top of the next hill.

its very hilly and back to back so if im cranking down the back side of the hills the next hill isnt a grind (and it cuts my times down by minutes over 40 to 60 mile rides). they are not that big but they are steep grades. i still plan on using a triple but i think ill run smaller gearing then i thought of on the first and second and still run a 53 on the large ring. im not the greatest climber. its pretty flat where i live but when im up in the mountains, doing 40 or 50 mph down the back side is my motivation to keep climbing my fat ass over the top of the next hill.

You won't need that 53. You can still get a good speed on the downhills w/ a 48 or 50 -- plenty to keep momentum on rollers. If you put a 53 on, you'll have a big jump from your middle ring, which will make you lose momentum where you least want to -- on flatter ground.

For long distance, big rings like that are wasted on most of us.

I have some of the same gearing questions. I'm updating/upgrading an early 90s era steel road bike for LD rides. I was thinking about a 50-34 compact crank but now I'm considering a triple 46-36-26 with a 12-28 7sp cassette. Seems this would give me a nice range for flats and hills. Is this a good setup?

I have some of the same gearing questions. I'm updating/upgrading an early 90s era steel road bike for LD rides. I was thinking about a 50-34 compact crank but now I'm considering a triple 46-36-26 with a 12-28 7sp cassette. Seems this would give me a nice range for flats and hills. Is this a good setup?

Try reading the rest of this thread.

Gearing is one of those things that you'll find distance cyclists are all over the map on.... It's another one of those, "Go with whatever works for you and ignore others who poo-poo your decisions" items (see the lighting thread for another).

I do all of my long rides running 53/39 with either a 11-23 or 12-25 in back. Works for me, but then I don't mind mashing and use the same bike and gearing for criteriums and 1200Ks.

I've seen guys run nothing bigger than a 39 up front (fixed, nonetheless). And on the other end of the spectrum, Tinker Juarez rode almost all of RAAM in the big ring. It pretty much all works.

While there are as many opinions on gearing as anything else, if someone has no experience with gearing for long distance and asks for advice, it's likely that most LD riders will advise that lower is better.

I personally can't imagine tackling any of our hilly rides over 200k without something in the range of 27 gear inches, or less; neither can my knees.

The question that most often arises seems to be whether to achieve that with a double or triple crankset.

i plan on running a triple on the front. currently it is a double with 43/53 in the front and 12/27 in the rear. on my fuji i have a stock triple on the front and a 12/22 on the rear. it is not so fun climbing in the mountains of maine and then not enough for the downhills and descents. now that i have the pacer i can put more of a race setup on the fuji.




Double with a 43/53 up front-12/27 in the rear AND a triple with a 12/22 in the rear.
Are these typos?

Most doubles I've seen are 39/53, maybe a 42 for a crit bike. Triples I've seen with 12/25-27 in the rear.

Double with a 43/53 up front-12/27 in the rear AND a triple with a 12/22 in the rear.
Are these typos?

Most doubles I've seen are 39/53, maybe a 42 for a crit bike. Triples I've seen with 12/25-27 in the rear.

no its what you see:lol:. thats how i bought my pacer. the guy before me for whatever reason has a double on the front 43/53. and yes the rear is a 12/27. :thumb:


on the fuji i am using the stock triple and on the rear im using the stock 12/22. no typo

another thing that makes me scratch my head is the shimano 105 hubs on the mavic rims. but honestly i got the bike for a price i couldn't pass up. so now i just need to set up the bike the way i want it.

]another thing that makes me scratch my head is the shimano 105 hubs on the mavic rims

thats a very normal combination, especially if the rims are cxp's or open sport

as for gearing, i had a 34/48 12/27 combo that worked well in vermont. for a triple i would do 30/ 40/ 52

12-25

I was just discussing the merits of my 28/46 and 11-26 setup in another subforum, see the second post on this page (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=498936&page=2).

I would like your opinions on a change I am considering on my long-distance bike.

I am a life-long low gear weenie. I love low gears, but I think I have overdone it on this bike and want to improve the shifting but I don't want my lowest gears to be *too* high.

Currently I have a triple crank in front with an inner chain-ring that is 30 teeth. In back, I have a wide-range cassette that goes all the way up to 34 teeth. This gives me a low gear of 24 inches, according to Sheldon's gear calculator.

Problem today - I am using brifters so I had to go with a Jtek Shiftmate (Shimano 10-speed brifters running a 9-speed XTR derailleur in the back). After several thousand miles of tweaking, I've never been happy with the shifting and so bike mechanic suggests I give up on the Jtek Shiftmate hack and go to a regular 10 speed derailleur on the back and a normal-range cassette -- like a 13-27 Shimano. That gets me a more "normal" setup with 10sp brifters running a 10 sp RD.

So, I will still have the 30T inner chain ring in front and a 13-27 in back, giving me a low gear of 30 gear inches.

I'm a much stronger rider than I was 18 months ago when I originally spec'd out my current bike with the super-low gears; I rarely use the lowest of the low gears any more, even when I am trying to catch up with strong riders like mattm.

Am I going to regret losing the low gear on hilly long-distance rides (e.g, RAMROD, High Pass Challenge, Tour de Blast)?

This is an expensive change (new RD, new cassette, new chain), but so far my attempts and my bike shop's attempts to make me happy with current shifting performance have not been successful.

BengeBoy - If you want to keep the 9spd XTR in the back, why not ditch the integrated shifter and use a barcon for the rear? I'm running a similar gearing setup (compact up front instead of a triple): 34/48 front, 11-32 rear. I use friction bar-end shifters and I've never had a problem with it.

BengeBoy - If you want to keep the 9spd XTR in the back, why not ditch the integrated shifter and use a barcon for the rear? I'm running a similar gearing setup (compact up front instead of a triple): 34/48 front, 11-32 rear. I use friction bar-end shifters and I've never had a problem with it.

I've thought about that....I really like bar-cons, but this is my only bike with brifters, and I would like to keep them on one bike (this is my Davidson we're talking about). Seems that this bike with a triple in front and "normal" 10sp normal-range cassette ought to shift pretty well.

Finally, there are some awesome deals right now on discontinued Dura Ace RD's - a long-cage DA 7800's are available lots of places right now for $99.

And it feels like more of a waste....if I get ride of my current brifters, I'd have to sell them off, because I don't have another bike to put them on.

On the other hand, I can re-use the parts from this bike if I take them off. If I harvest the 9-speed RD, cassette and 9-speed chain I have on the bike now, I can re-use them all to upgrade my Univega. A 25-year old Univega with an XTR RD would be pretty cool, don't you think?.

Bengeboy, your triple most likely has a 74 bc small ring, which means you can swap the 30 tooth for a 24 tooth chainring. That combination with a 27 tooth cog will give a pretty similar gear to your 30x34.

Bengeboy, your triple most likely has a 74 bc small ring, which means you can swap the 30 tooth for a 24 tooth chainring. That combination with a 27 tooth cog will give a pretty similar gear to your 30x34.

Nope, the smallest chainring it will take up front is a 30t, which is why I went w/the wide-range cassette in the first place (I forget the bcd but this is something we went through when we spec'd the bike).

If I had it to do over again I likely would have gone w/barcons on this bike, but I was excited about brifters at the time, never having owned them...right now the smoothest shifting bike I own is the Univega, with downtube friction shifters.

Oh, you have the Dura-Ace triple with the "special" granny ring. What a dumb move by Shimano. An Ultegra triple crank might weigh the same and uses a common BCD so you can swap rings.

There are a number of 12-28 or 11-28 cassettes out now. SRAM and IRD make them. IRD also makes 11/12-30/32/34 10sp cassettes. The shifting may not be as good as Shimano, you'll just have to try them. At least they are cheap.

Your MTB rear derailleur should work fine with a 12-27, no need to spend more on a road triple RD (unless you want to, $100 is not bad).

You can use a 9sp RD on a 10sp system.

Oh, you have the Dura-Ace triple with the "special" granny ring.

I plead temporary insanity.


Your MTB rear derailleur should work fine with a 12-27, no need to spend more on a road triple RD (unless you want to, $100 is not bad).



You can use a 9sp RD on a 10sp system.

This is what I was confused by (maybe the mechanic confused me more when I chatted w/him about this, or I confused him...).

So, you're saying:

- change the cassette
- get a 10-speed chain
- remove the shiftmate
- keep the XTR derailleur

?

I plead temporary insanity.
I had one too. It seemed like a good idea at the time...




So, you're saying:

- change the cassette
- get a 10-speed chain
- remove the shiftmate
- keep the XTR derailleur

?

Yep. 10sp and 9sp Shimano rear derailleurs (and 8sp and most 7sp) all use the same cable pull, so they interchange. The MTB ones just can handle a slightly larger cog and more chain wrap. And some work backwards ("rapid rise"). That would work with road shifters, it would just be wierd.

I've been using 9sp RDs on my 10sp bikes for a couple years.

I had one too. It seemed like a good idea at the time...



Yep. 10sp and 9sp Shimano rear derailleurs (and 8sp and most 7sp) all use the same cable pull, so they interchange. The MTB ones just can handle a slightly larger cog and more chain wrap. And some work backwards ("rapid rise"). That would work with road shifters, it would just be wierd.

I've been using 9sp RDs on my 10sp bikes for a couple years.

Thanks for your tip. I called the LBS back today and chatted with the mechanic (who is very good). I had confused him a bit w/my questions, and when I re-asked my questions around keeping the XTR he knew exactly where we were headed.

His take:

The XTR works fine with road cassettes *as long as* you don't try to use it on a cassette with a relatively small large cog (like 23T). He said it works best when the largest cog on the cassette is no smaller than 32T, but a 27T should still be OK. In his experience the only time I would have a problem would be in a cross-chaining situation (large chainring in front, biggest cog in back)....which of course I would hope to avoid anyway.

So his judgement is that XTR + 10SP cassette will still be an improvement over XTR + Shiftmate + wide range 9 speed cassette.

I also asked about the SRAM cassette. His advice: will work, but noisy.

So I think I will try to go with a normal 12-27 Shimano cassette (not a bad piece of gear to own in any case), a new chain, and remove the shiftmate.

...and then go back to work on the engine...

Since the RD is 9-spd or 10-spd, the only reason you currently have a shift-mate is because of the cassette. Therefore, just replace your 9-speed cassette with a 10-speed cassette with the same range. IRD make an 11-34 10-speed cassette (http://www.interlocracing.com/cassettes_steel.html). Of course, you may then also need to change the chain.

Since the RD is 9-spd or 10-spd, the only reason you currently have a shift-mate is because of the cassette. Therefore, just replace your 9-speed cassette with a 10-speed cassette with the same range. IRD make an 11-34 10-speed cassette (http://www.interlocracing.com/cassettes_steel.html). Of course, you may then also need to change the chain.

hmmm. might have to pick up that campy 12-32.... :thumb:

And so, back to the other part of my question -- do you think a low gear of 30 gear inches is low enough for brevets and long-distance rides in the Northwest?

After reading advice above, and finding a great deal on a closeout rear derailleur, I'm still leaning toward a 12-27 cassette in back with a 30T inner chainring on the triple. That's a low of about 30 gear inches.

Unless I do loaded touring, that seems low enough to me. Any advice to the contrary?

And so, back to the other part of my question -- do you think a low gear of 30 gear inches is low enough for brevets and long-distance rides in the Northwest?

Only you can tell.

Only you can tell.

Uggh. Do you mean I have to go out and actually ride? I can't just figure it out on the Internets? Jeez, I might get wet or something....:)

I might get wet or something....:)

read up about using those fenders....

And so, back to the other part of my question -- do you think a low gear of 30 gear inches is low enough for brevets and long-distance rides in the Northwest?

After reading advice above, and finding a great deal on a closeout rear derailleur, I'm still leaning toward a 12-27 cassette in back with a 30T inner chainring on the triple. That's a low of about 30 gear inches.

Unless I do loaded touring, that seems low enough to me. Any advice to the contrary?

for me, yes, in the NE, when i'm at peak.
i also found a 'compact' was workable... but running a 32/46 13-29 seems to be nearly ideal. i can drop to 30-29 if needed by swapping rings.

but yes, only you will know.

read up about using those fenders....

I was using Race Blades for Saturday's ride (probably going to go to full fenders on this until April....)

http://i40.tinypic.com/23vdojn.jpg

And so, back to the other part of my question -- do you think a low gear of 30 gear inches is low enough for brevets and long-distance rides in the Northwest?

After reading advice above, and finding a great deal on a closeout rear derailleur, I'm still leaning toward a 12-27 cassette in back with a 30T inner chainring on the triple. That's a low of about 30 gear inches.

Unless I do loaded touring, that seems low enough to me. Any advice to the contrary?Sounds good. I did last year's Mountain 400 with 30X25. Could have used a 27 or even a 29. Cadence around 60 at 136HR at the top of the last pass. You can calculate cadence with the bigger cogs. Didn't have to walk the later, steeper climbs. 30X25 is plenty low for shorter rides like RAMROD.

I run a 53/42/30 front with a 13-29 10sp rear, works for me.

BB,
Shimano used to make 9 spd brifters...Sometimes you can still get them...Like here maybe?
http://www.bikeparts.com/search_results.asp?ID=BPC307799

If you go with the 10sp IRD cassette the shifting will not be nearly as good as you get with a full shimano setup...I am still experimenting with this (12/30 10 sp) but it is barely acceptable. Also, I got IRD's latest version of these cassettes in October '08 (which is supposed to be better than their earlier addition) and it cost me over $100 (I think).

you can still get the shimano 9 speed brifters. sora and tiagra are 9 speed, and i believe ether the r600 or r500, which are said to be for small hands, but in reality they are just old105 or ultegra 9 speeds with shims to shorten the reach

Thanks for the continuing advice. I'm currently on the switch-to-a-new-RD path (found a closeout DA 7800 RD for $80), which I think looked less expensive than changing out the brifters.

Edit: the change I was asking about has now been completed. I put on a new rear derailleur; got ride of the Shiftmate; put on a standard 12-27 cassette and a new chain. I have only done about 35 miles on it but it shifts much, much better.

I climbed a local hill here known as Zoo Hill / Cougar Mountain today (one of mattm's favorite rides). It's about 2.5 miles of 5% to 13% elevations (according to Mapmyride). Wasn't the easiest thing I've ever done, but I didn't die. Net - I'm happy with the change.

Venturing where angels fear:eek: ... a page for gear freaks (http://www.veloweb.ca/randopages/randoratios.html).

Venturing where angels fear:eek: ... a page for gear freaks (http://www.veloweb.ca/randopages/randoratios.html).

how often are you cruising in the 50?

and looking at that combo in the hpv drivetrain analyzer (http://www.soulbikes.com/gears/) shows about 8-9 combinations with changes that are only 1-3%s difference from the next nearest. do you use those?

for me, this is why a triple is not for me... too much overlap + wide 'q'. i found i was only using the smallest of the small and jumping around a bit on the larger rings.

for me, running 32/46 or 30/44 30/46 up front makes more sense. i never plan on spinning a big ring beyond 28~ mph or so. the cruising and low ranges are far more important to me.

ymmv. :)

I have some of the same gearing questions. I'm updating/upgrading an early 90s era steel road bike for LD rides. I was thinking about a 50-34 compact crank but now I'm considering a triple 46-36-26 with a 12-28 7sp cassette. Seems this would give me a nice range for flats and hills. Is this a good setup?

I had a bike with that range (on 8spd).

I thought the bottom was far too low, until I had a need to go up a sustained 1/5 grade.

Man, it seemed so easy! Sure I was working hard, but I wasn't killing myself, and could have climbed a far longer hill of that grade.

how often are you cruising in the 50?

and looking at that combo in the hpv drivetrain analyzer (http://www.soulbikes.com/gears/) shows about 8-9 combinations with changes that are only 1-3%s difference from the next nearest. do you use those?

for me, this is why a triple is not for me... too much overlap + wide 'q'. i found i was only using the smallest of the small and jumping around a bit on the larger rings.

for me, running 32/46 or 30/44 30/46 up front makes more sense. i never plan on spinning a big ring beyond 28~ mph or so. the cruising and low ranges are far more important to me.

ymmv. :)

I spend a fair amount of time on the 50. Yes, there are some close gears, but I appreciate close spacing. Believe it or not, I actually still do some double-shifting, to shorten up some jumps. That's why I like a triple, as I said, because I find any jump on the front over 10 teeth, interferes with maintaining cadence. Maybe its because for many, many years (like 25) I rode a 42/50, so maybe it's wired into my nervous system.

Actually, I was watching some friends with compacts, this morning on the usual Wednesday loop (http://www.veloweb.ca/storypages/wodensride.html), and was noticing how they lose cadence when they drop from that 50 or 52, down to the inside ring.

BengeBoy, one thing I kept in mind while choosing gears was walking speed. It seems to me that once you drop much below 30 gear inches, you are riding so slowly that you may as well be walking. Unless you are the type who feels getting off to push is a personal failure, that may be something to keep in mind.

I eventually settled on a 30-46 in front and a 14-25 in back. This gives an adequately low gear for speeds just above walking. The nine-speed 14-25 gives very close spacing so I always have a comfortable gear, and the 46-14 is adequate for almost anything. I do have a hard time following the pace on a certain type of downhill on short fast club rides, but for LD rides I never miss the big gears.

HTH!

Average walking pace on is usually considered to be 2mph. I usually go around 3mph, but I walk faster than most people. But that's on level ground, wearing normal shoes and not pushing a bike.

30 gear inches at 90rpm is 8 mph (according to Sheldon's gear calculator (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/)), considerably faster than walking. Even at 40rpm (chug, chug) it's 3.6 mph, which is probably nearly twice as fast as I'd be walking, pushing a loaded bike up a steep hill, wearing cycling shoes. It just seems like a walking pace. You'd have to be down around 15 gear inches before you'd really be down to a walking pace, and even then, only at low pedal rpm.

Let's see, even with a 20 tooth chainring (the smallest possible on a compact triple) and a 34 tooth cog (the largest I can recall seeing), you'd have 15.7 gear inches (assuming 700x28 tires), and you'd still be doing 4.2mph at 90rpm. Only chugging at a knee-killing 40rpm would you be down to 1.9mph.

Average walking pace on is usually considered to be 2mph. I usually go around 3mph, but I walk faster than most people. But that's on level ground, wearing normal shoes and not pushing a bike.

30 gear inches at 90rpm is 8 mph (according to Sheldon's gear calculator (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/)), considerably faster than walking. Even at 40rpm (chug, chug) it's 3.6 mph, which is probably nearly twice as fast as I'd be walking, pushing a loaded bike up a steep hill, wearing cycling shoes. It just seems like a walking pace. You'd have to be down around 15 gear inches before you'd really be down to a walking pace, and even then, only at low pedal rpm.

Let's see, even with a 20 tooth chainring (the smallest possible on a compact triple) and a 34 tooth cog (the largest I can recall seeing), you'd have 15.7 gear inches (assuming 700x28 tires), and you'd still be doing 4.2mph at 90rpm. Only chugging at a knee-killing 40rpm would you be down to 1.9mph.

Beat me to it.

With my 30X29 (27.7") I'd have to walk pretty fast to keep up w/ that. Even riding my Bleriot w/ its 20" low, I can spin that at jogging pace ... up to about 20% anyway:)

My touring bikes have always had low gears around 20 inches or so. I never regretted having gearing that low, and on a number of organized rides last year I was able to ride right around riders who were walking up steep (20%-ish) grades. I can tell you I was moving *much* faster than they were walking up the hill.

I've still got very low gears on my commuters/touring bikes.

After raising the gearing on my bike as described above, however, I think that a low of 30 gear inches is going to be OK for unloaded riding. I could have used one lower gear on the ride I did Saturday for about 300 yards, otherwise I was OK. On Sunday I did a bit more climbing, and never used my lowest two gears.

I really can't tell anybody what gearing they need for their bike-- it's really a personal choice.

The trouble is getting custom gearing to shift correctly. If you're thinking about STI brifters, Stick to a Sugino compact triple crankset (XD600) with 46-36-26 rings or so (some have 48-36-26) and a 8 or 9 speed Shimano F. derailer (Tiagra is a good choice). It doesn't seem to matter if you want 8, 9 or 10 speeds. The Sugino *supershift* chainrings work fine with brifters.

There are other ways to get lower gearing, but these are not as simple or cheap or easy to set up.

My wife and I currently have 12-27 Shimano 10 spd cassette and 50-39-30 up front. I'm changing out the small chainring up front on my wife's bike to 24t, on mine to 26t. We're in our 60's and just getting back into cycling. Our longest rides have been about 50 miles so we're not currently LDR qualified, but when I grab the granny, generally at grades >10%, I just as soon grab the lowest gear I can get my hands on. BTW, I really enjoy the relatively close spacing of the 12-27 and wouldn't want to give it up.

I would HIGHLY recommend that you set your bike up with a "bail out" gear because if you enjoy long distance cycling and climbing you will definitely bonk on a major climb sooner or later. That is the reality. With all the gears available on a modern bike, there is no excuse not to throw in an extra low gear for the inevitable death march. You will be glad you had it.
PS. Walking is definitely slower than spinning a low gear. I pass walkers all the time and I also seem to be suffering less while doing it. People who think walking is efficient are probably fast cyclists not used to seeing what happens at the tail end of the pack!