Living Car Free - Urban areas struggle with Grocers

Here's an article that upset me for two reasons. The first being the poorest communities suffer from large supermarkets forcing eveyone to overpay for groceries. Second, the attitude of some in the community that you can't use bicycles for shopping.

I used to live in a nightborhood like this but had no trouble using the bus to bring back groceries. Today, I would certainly use a bicycle to haul groceries back home even though the supermarket was two miles away. It's incredible that people would rather pay higher prices for food than be caught using a bicycle for grocery shopping.

During the summer, I was posting at bus shelters near the mall my flyer stating "This mall is accessable by bicycle" and it had links to sites on utility cycling. It looks like I'm going to have to start doing the same for supermarkets!

From the article:

"I can't drive yet so I'm not gonna do anything extraordinary like jump on my bike and ride it for two or three miles and ride it back with tons of stuff on it, oh no," said Lozoya

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081218/ap_on_re_us/diet_disparity

really? people are ignorant and car obsessed? :p It makes me sad really, but people will learn eventually, this country cannot possibly sustain this way forever. good idea on posting on the bus shelters though, I do love sticking up flyers!

From the article:

"I can't drive yet so I'm not gonna do anything extraordinary like jump on my bike and ride it for two or three miles and ride it back with tons of stuff on it, oh no," said Lozoya


really? people are ignorant and car obsessed? :p It makes me sad really, but people will learn eventually, this country cannot possibly sustain this way forever. good idea on posting on the bus shelters though, I do love sticking up flyers!

People won't necessarily learn. My wife teaches at an inner city school, and it is amazing how stubbornly many of her students refuse to think outside the box. When in doubt, they do the safe thing, where "safe" is defined by what their mom and gramma does (many single-parent households). If it's good enough for their family, it's good enough for them, and to do something different would be an over-reach that would show disrespect for the way their family always did it.

It's not that they're stupid or ignorant; to live in poverty you have to be extremely resourceful. But they have been raised to not expect too much, and certainly not to reach above your station. My wife has a helluva time teaching them Advanced Placement history, not because they can't handle the work, but just because they don't expect to succeed.

If you can get someone to be more independent by putting up fliers, more power to ya. I know the battle you're facing.

Unfortunately this occurs in many inner city areas. I know that there are parts of North Charleston, SC that have the same issue, but the closest full service grocery store is over 7 miles away and requires at least one bus transfer to get to it. The roads are not particularly cyclist friendly in that area either. There was a Winn Dixie in the middle of the area, but it closed up 12+ years ago and the building sits boarded up to this day. The locals have tried to get a store to come to the neighborhood but none will because of the purported high crime rates. This problem is only going to get worse as the population ages.

Aaron:)

to live in poverty you have to be extremely resourceful.

then finding a job and making money should never be a problem

then finding a job and making money should never be a problem

Spoken like someone who's never felt poverty.

Spoken like someone who's never felt poverty.

I've eaten my share of potatoes and top-ramen for months at a time.
Lamenting that even peanut butter was too expensive.
That never stopped me from constantly looking for a job.

I've eaten my share of potatoes and top-ramen for months at a time.
Lamenting that even peanut butter was too expensive.
That never stopped me from constantly looking for a job.

I know plenty of people who are employed full time, yet still can't count on paying bills and feeding the kids every day. Saying that resourcefulness eliminates poverty is pretty harsh. I've been there myself, and grew up counting meals, seeing my mother make less money working two jobs than she could get from welfare - and don't tell me that getting an education is really an option for someone working 60 hours/week.

Poverty is a self-perpetuating trap, and while resourcefulness can help you escape that trap, it is by no means a simple or easy thing.

Unfortunately this occurs in many inner city areas. I know that there are parts of North Charleston, SC that have the same issue, but the closest full service grocery store is over 7 miles away and requires at least one bus transfer to get to it. The roads are not particularly cyclist friendly in that area either. There was a Winn Dixie in the middle of the area, but it closed up 12+ years ago and the building sits boarded up to this day. The locals have tried to get a store to come to the neighborhood but none will because of the purported high crime rates. This problem is only going to get worse as the population ages.

Aaron:)

In my town, all the roads are safe for bicycling with plenty of avenues under 30 mph. However, it's rare to see ANYONE taking a bicycle to the shopping center. There are no hills and it's totally flat!

Yet, I'm the only lone wolf who does this in both good and bad neighborhoods. As someone said before, you have to really think out of the box when it comes to utility cycling.

From the article:

"I can't drive yet so I'm not gonna do anything extraordinary like jump on my bike and ride it for two or three miles and ride it back with tons of stuff on it, oh no," said Lozoya

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081218/ap_on_re_us/diet_disparity

I'm sorry, but this young lady's attitude does not strike me as resourceful, or even sensible, in the least. Riding, or even walking, two miles to buy decent groceries isn't even remotely a hardship. I'm pushing 50, and I do it almost every day without even thinking about it, even in the snow, and so does my 75 year old neighbor.

There's clearly more going on here than perceived hardship: it's pride, pure and simple. Having to walk or ride a bike to buy groceries is possibly an insult to this girl, maybe even totally humiliating, so she won't do it. But because of this misplaced pride, both she and her relatives eat less well, even though there's a big building full of good food only 10,000 feet away.

then finding a job and making money should never be a problem

The unemployment rate in Michigan right now is 10 % overall, and over 20 % in inner city areas. Do you know what that means? It means that over a million people will be unable to get a job, no matter how hard they look for one. That sounds like a problem to me!

The west side of Lansing is one of these "food deserts" with no grocery stores that are easily accessible by bus, bike or foot. One woman decided to do somethin about it. She approached the only store in the area--a Quality Dairy convenience store (we call them "party stores"). She convinced QD to sell fresh, high quality vegetables on an experimental basis. Then she marketed the vegetables to the community with recipe flyers and even cooking and tasting demonstrations. She also took charge of the produce display in the store to keep it fresh and attractive. I haven't been in there lately, but as far as I know, they're still selling produce and people are still buying it.

One person did this!

The main thrust of the article is about a 17 year old girl trying to feed her "obese mother" and the difficulty she has trying to shop the local stores without a car.

She tries to adjust her mother's diet with her newly found shopping empowerment.

It is interesting that the obvious solution hasn't revealed itself to this child and obese mother;

Have mom walk to the grocery store and carry her groceries back home. Momma gets some excersize and limits her diet to how much she can carry with each trip. The irony is that the better condition she develops by walking to/from the store will allow her to carry more groceries. As long as the grocery bags aren't filled with kidney suet and Twinkies, it could work out pretty well for them.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/12/shoppingREX061206_228x306.jpg

Good point Mike.. The daughter and mother could walk to the store together. Sure 2 miles isnt a picnic for someone obese.. but its a start.

But it is true about urban areas not having grocery stores, and very true for my city. The downtown area is constantly building high rise condo's in the downtown area, but there is only 1 grocery store, a winn-dixie that isnt very clean or a nice place to go, and a retail store, those are even harder to find without going across town to a mall.

Downtown landscapes have really changed in the past 30 years, everything is farther out, and in a mall that has a huge parking lot. It is depressing.

Good point Mike.. The daughter and mother could walk to the store together. Sure 2 miles isnt a picnic for someone obese.. but its a start.

But it is true about urban areas not having grocery stores, and very true for my city. The downtown area is constantly building high rise condo's in the downtown area, but there is only 1 grocery store, a winn-dixie that isnt very clean or a nice place to go, and a retail store, those are even harder to find without going across town to a mall.

Downtown landscapes have really changed in the past 30 years, everything is farther out, and in a mall that has a huge parking lot. It is depressing.

When I left J'ville 25 or so years ago, one reason was that it seemed like what I called a 'fake city'. Meaning that the people there wanted to be thought of as a city but didn't know what a city is. You make it sound just the same. I biked around Jacksonville then and noticed that their idea of a bike lane was to put up signs that say "bike route" along sidewalks without curb cuts. Just the old signs. You're describing infill development without mixed use, the concept of a walkable neighborhood seems to have escaped the urban planners. Its such a shame, Jacksonville could be a nice place but the people there have decided to accept Kunstler's geography of nowhere as a goal to be attained rather than avoided.

The main thrust of the article is about a 17 year old girl trying to feed her "obese mother" and the difficulty she has trying to shop the local stores without a car.

She tries to adjust her mother's diet with her newly found shopping empowerment.

It is interesting that the obvious solution hasn't revealed itself to this child and obese mother;

Have mom walk to the grocery store and carry her groceries back home. Momma gets some excersize and limits her diet to how much she can carry with each trip. The irony is that the better condition she develops by walking to/from the store will allow her to carry more groceries. As long as the grocery bags aren't filled with kidney suet and Twinkies, it could work out pretty well for them.


That's a good idea when the store is relatively close. If the store is 5 or 6 miles away, or more--as is often the case--walking is not a sane option.

(Until recently, the entire city of Detroit did not have a supermarket with a good produce section.)

To patc & Roody:

I agree with you both that my comment was unnecessarily insensitive and rather ignorant.

Thanks and Merry Christmas.

Here's an article that upset me for two reasons. The first being the poorest communities suffer from large supermarkets forcing everyone to overpay for groceries.
How many ghetto stores have you worked at?....

It's kind of like that line from "The Matrix" movie: I could try to tell you what goes on, but you kind of need to see it for yourself. :notamused:


Second, the attitude of some in the community that you can't use bicycles for shopping.

I used to live in a nightborhood like this but had no trouble using the bus to bring back groceries.
...

"I can't drive yet so I'm not gonna do anything extraordinary like jump on my bike and ride it for two or three miles and ride it back with tons of stuff on it, oh no," said Lozoya

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081218/ap_on_re_us/diet_disparity
Could be, oh, she's afraid of getting mugged/raped/kidnapped & raped repeatedly?
I'd bet if you asked them, most of your own female friends wouldn't want to go for a solitary bike ride in a crappy section of LA, either.
~

Good job for her. 50 pounds off yourself is something, but 50 pounds off someone else?

Here is the alternative. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h76OxJ8x-6w) She might not share the same ideas we have on bikes, but she respects health, and even the health of her neighbors.

Extended alternative. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCbDy97-XWQ)

To patc & Roody:

I agree with you both that my comment was unnecessarily insensitive and rather ignorant.

Thanks and Merry Christmas.

Water under the bridge - now go eat a turkey or something ;-)

Not having grocery stores in downtown and urban areas really is a problem. I remember when I was a young teen, every neighborhood had a small grocery store. You could walk 3 city blocks in any direction and hit a string of small mom-and-pop grocery stores. They somehow had most of what you needed - cream of this-and-that for casseroles, a meat counter, packs of noodles, rice cereal - you know - the staples for the middle class.

By the 1980's, most of them were gone - poached by the big warehouse type grocery stores. By the 1990's, the big warehouse grocery stores closed down due to competition from the newer and bigger grocery store chains. By 2006, those bigger chains were lost to Walmart superstores.

In the intererim, some low-cost cash-and-carry grocers like Aldi's and Save-a-Lot moved back downtown. They aren't huge - about the size of a 'big" grocery store in the 1960's (maybe six short aisles). They are doing well - lots of business. The customers are mostly lower income - downtown folks; the folks that seem to wears something on their heads all the time for whatever reason.

Anyway, it seems that in some cities, the downtown grocers are making a comeback. It is surely needed.

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~innwigs/ImageArchive/Pines/ThePinesIndiana-GielowsStoreInterior-NE-CornerOfHwy12-n-BrownRoad-MF.jpg

In my area, mom and pop stores were abundant when I was kid as well. There's a couple of reasons why a lot of mom and pops in my area went under. The reasons that I saw locally was the entrance of the gas station convenience mart, and then the final blow for most was the deep discount food chain making it's way to town. There's a few corner stores, and small supermarkets left, but they only cater to a small nitche of customers where there are no convenience marts or discount food stores close by.

Thank goodness there's a small store a block away from me. There are a few others, too. I haven't wanted to go to a big box grocery store in a long time.

*add-on* Part of why there aren't any big stores in my neighborhood is that there just isn't room for them. It's a designated historical district, which means that buildings can't be torn down or replaced.

The main thrust of the article is about a 17 year old girl trying to feed her "obese mother" and the difficulty she has trying to shop the local stores without a car.

She tries to adjust her mother's diet with her newly found shopping empowerment.

It is interesting that the obvious solution hasn't revealed itself to this child and obese mother;

Have mom walk to the grocery store and carry her groceries back home. Momma gets some excersize and limits her diet to how much she can carry with each trip. The irony is that the better condition she develops by walking to/from the store will allow her to carry more groceries. As long as the grocery bags aren't filled with kidney suet and Twinkies, it could work out pretty well for them.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/12/shoppingREX061206_228x306.jpg

Nice play on a word. Maybe "exorsize" could fit in there, too.

As to the picture, and way off topic... I often wonder at the engineering marvel that is the toilet pedestal that can cope with the weight of something like that plopping itself down on it without breaking the porcelain.

And then I wonder how that individual makes its way through the aisles -- with a kind of arrogant, get-out-of-the-way attitude and a scowl on the face.

Sorry, these are the thoughts that come to mind when I see someone like this.

Gratuitous on-topic content -- my nearest shops are expensive even when compared with the supermarket that is 25km away. When you live country, you take what you have to.

However, my previous residence was in a suburban area with a grocery 1.5km away, a pizza shop around the corner, a pub and bottle shop 2.5km away, and the best of all, a bike shop next to the pizza shop! If I wanted fully fledged shopping centre, that as 4km away, next door to the public golf course, and required a ride along the river waterfront.

I sometimes miss those days of convenience.

Here's an article that upset me for two reasons. The first being the poorest communities suffer from large supermarkets forcing everyone to overpay for groceries. Second, the attitude of some in the community that you can't use bicycles for shopping.

There used to be plenty of neighborhood grocery stores in the area. Most of them were burned up in riots, because they were operated by folks with different skin pigmentation.

The few enterprising souls who sought to re-establish neighborhood groceries found that banks and insurers thought such locations carried a high risk of being burned to the ground so they needed high interest and high premiums to cover that likelihood. They found other locations to start their businesses.

Highly capitalized grocers (The supermarkets) who locate near the area have to charge their customers more to cover these higher operating costs. Sadly, the local citizens have brought this calamity upon themselves.

Many evil acts are justified by the perpetrators notion of being a victim. A community steeped in the feeling of victimization is unlikely to improve because it is always some outside force "keeping them down". South LA is an example of this community malaise.

There used to be plenty of neighborhood grocery stores in the area. Most of them were burned up in riots, because they were operated by folks with different skin pigmentation.

The few enterprising souls who sought to re-establish neighborhood groceries found that banks and insurers thought such locations carried a high risk of being burned to the ground so they needed high interest and high premiums to cover that likelihood. They found other locations to start their businesses.

Highly capitalized grocers (The supermarkets) who locate near the area have to charge their customers more to cover these higher operating costs. Sadly, the local citizens have brought this calamity upon themselves.

Many evil acts are justified by the perpetrators notion of being a victim. A community steeped in the feeling of victimization is unlikely to improve because it is always some outside force "keeping them down". South LA is an example of this community malaise.

There are a lot of reasons for food deserts. You've hit on one.

There used to be plenty of neighborhood grocery stores in the area. Most of them were burned up in riots, because they were operated by folks with different skin pigmentation.

The few enterprising souls who sought to re-establish neighborhood groceries found that banks and insurers thought such locations carried a high risk of being burned to the ground so they needed high interest and high premiums to cover that likelihood. They found other locations to start their businesses.

Highly capitalized grocers (The supermarkets) who locate near the area have to charge their customers more to cover these higher operating costs. Sadly, the local citizens have brought this calamity upon themselves.

Many evil acts are justified by the perpetrators notion of being a victim. A community steeped in the feeling of victimization is unlikely to improve because it is always some outside force "keeping them down". South LA is an example of this community malaise.

I met a Korean woman who acted as a broker for small corner stores. Her attitude was that the ghetto stores were highly profitable because "Those people are stupid they'll pay too much for anything." Here in DC there is this distaste for those Korean groceries mainly because the owners don't live here. Up in Baltimore you see the Korean stores with Korean language signs indicating that they live in the neighborhood but you don't see that in DC. In the hispanic neighborhoods the korean owners speak spanish and english. The story line doesn't really hold here, I work in the neighborhood where the '68 riots did their worst damage. There was a cheap grocery store but when the neighborhood got gentrified Whole Foods came in with expensive food. Some parts of the city where there weren't riots in Ward 8 for example they have a lack of groceries. I think its the crime and not the burned to the ground in a riot 40 years ago theory. You can tell when you get to that part of the city when the convenience stores have thick bullet proof glass like in a bank.

I would say that that poverty and crime are probably not major reasons for the lack of grocery stores in cities and inner suburbs. Upscale inner city neighborhoods are affected just as much--but most people have cars to take them to the suburban markets.

For reasons, I would look more to:

Stores want to be close to interstate highways for supply trucks.
Banks, investors and insurance companies are less willing to invest in inner cities.
Big chains have a policy of reducing fixed expenses by locating where the taxes and real estate are lower.
This is aided by both by city commercial taxes that are too high,
and by "pro-development" state laws that require big cities to extend utility services to outlying communities.
Willingness of the public to foot the bill for new roads to outlying shopping districts.
The big box chains are literally unable to think outside the box. They've failed to come up with imaginative store designs that are more suited to urban areas: Smaller footprints with two or three stories to reduce fixed costs, smaller parking lots with better public transit and bike access, less square footage, etc.

Some of you might want to check out a thread in the Safety & Advocacy subforum about the "One Mile Solution (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=495384)".

Some of you might want to check out a thread in the Safety & Advocacy subforum about the "One Mile Solution (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=495384)".

Great thread! change.org (https://www.change.org/ideas/view/the_1-mile_solution) is a pretty interesting site too.

I met a Korean woman who acted as a broker for small corner stores. Her attitude was that the ghetto stores were highly profitable because "Those people are stupid they'll pay too much for anything." Here in DC there is this distaste for those Korean groceries mainly because the owners don't live here. Up in Baltimore you see the Korean stores with Korean language signs indicating that they live in the neighborhood but you don't see that in DC. In the Hispanic neighborhoods the Korean owners speak Spanish and English. The story line doesn't really hold here, I work in the neighborhood where the '68 riots did their worst damage. There was a cheap grocery store but when the neighborhood got gentrified Whole Foods came in with expensive food. Some parts of the city where there weren't riots, in Ward 8 for example, they have a lack of groceries. I think its the crime and not the burned to the ground in a riot 40 years ago theory. You can tell when you get to that part of the city when the convenience stores have thick bullet proof glass like in a bank.

There has been a second riot in south Los Angeles since the 1965 riots. It occurred in 1992 when the media and liberal politicians hyped the Rodney King arrest. $446 million of property damage to 1120 buildings, of which 1050 were commercial establishments. This is in contrast with the 1965 riot where "600 buildings were damaged or destroyed, and an estimated $35 million in damage was caused. Most of the physical damage was confined to businesses that were said to have caused resentment in the neighborhood due to perceived unfairness. Homes were not attacked, although some caught fire due to proximity to other fires." http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Watts-Riots

The perceived risk by lenders, entrepreneurs and insurers has undercut local jobs and services for the area.

One of the things that has eroded the value of small urban stores is the almost exclusive use of cards to make purchases.

Small stores used to operate on the basis of constant cashflow -- customers paid in cash, cash, cash, for any size of purchase. It meant that the business operator could do plenty of business under the table, too, so the tax take wasn't so high.

It also meant that stores in lower socio-economic areas actually were quite attractive because the customers expected to pay cash and wouldn't ask for (or were offered) credit, whereas in the more elite suburbs, store credit -- the tab -- meant the operator had to wait monthly or longer for cash to roll in, usually in the form of cheques that required expense to deposit. Naturally, the wealthy were the most difficult to get the money out of, and late and non-payers were rife.

Now customers have a high expectation of paying for everything, including the daily paper, with a card, which means accountability for the business operator through the paper trail, and the additional costs of each transaction.

One of the things that has eroded the value of small urban stores is the almost exclusive use of cards to make purchases.

Small stores used to operate on the basis of constant cashflow -- customers paid in cash, cash, cash, for any size of purchase. It meant that the business operator could do plenty of business under the table, too, so the tax take wasn't so high.

It also meant that stores in lower socio-economic areas actually were quite attractive because the customers expected to pay cash and wouldn't ask for (or were offered) credit, whereas in the more elite suburbs, store credit -- the tab -- meant the operator had to wait monthly or longer for cash to roll in, usually in the form of cheques that required expense to deposit. Naturally, the wealthy were the most difficult to get the money out of, and late and non-payers were rife.

Now customers have a high expectation of paying for everything, including the daily paper, with a card, which means accountability for the business operator through the paper trail, and the additional costs of each transaction.
In the bad neighborhoods the drug dealers like to use cash. The corners stores provide a micro money laundering service for the street dealers. Here's how it works, when the dealer is suspicious of the customer he pops in to the corner store to make a small purchase to get change before signaling to the runner to deliver from the stash. That way the dealer avoids holding the marked bills that the cops use to connect the dealer with the drugs. The corner stores here take credit cards but have a high minimum $10. Recently one dropped it to $5.

The under the table thing is right. I know personally of a store with two registers and one is occasionally off the books. The owner won't take credit purchases at that machine and it isn't electronically connected to the accounting system. But that store is in squeeky clean law abiding suburb not the city.

Let me try to inject a note of reality:

The "food deserts" often include some of the wealthiest neighborhoods in the city as well as some of the poorest. People have to travel long distances to buy food. Or they make more expensive purchases in small stores that have a limited selection--stores ranging from gas stations, to small ethnic groceries, to high end specialty food shops. This is very different from super-high crime areas, where a dearth of supermarkets might be the least of the citizens' problems.

Could be, oh, she's afraid of getting mugged/raped/kidnapped & raped repeatedly?
I'd bet if you asked them, most of your own female friends wouldn't want to go for a solitary bike ride in a crappy section of LA, either.
~

I was thinking about your comment the other day.

Let me just say, you have a much greater chance of getting mugged, raped & kidnapped in a bad neighborhood just walking than on a bicycle. In fact, I still ride through those neighborhoods today but you won't see me walking them.

By the 1980's, most of them were gone - poached by the big warehouse type grocery stores. By the 1990's, the big warehouse grocery stores closed down due to competition from the newer and bigger grocery store chains. By 2006, those bigger chains were lost to Walmart superstores.

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~innwigs/ImageArchive/Pines/ThePinesIndiana-GielowsStoreInterior-NE-CornerOfHwy12-n-BrownRoad-MF.jpg

I used to work in an A&P during the 1980's located in an inner city. In fact, the A&P used to have thousands of the located everywhere and were the largest supermarket in the nation. By the early 1990's, they decided to close all their small inner city stores and focus on "Super Centers" located in the burbs. It was a concentrated effort to leave the inner city because the A&P would not pay for security resulting in poor inventory.

In my area, mom and pop stores were abundant when I was kid as well. There's a couple of reasons why a lot of mom and pops in my area went under. The reasons that I saw locally was the entrance of the gas station convenience mart, and then the final blow for most was the deep discount food chain making it's way to town. There's a few corner stores, and small supermarkets left, but they only cater to a small nitche of customers where there are no convenience marts or discount food stores close by.

Good one.

The mom and pop stores in New York City have been replaced by Duane Read or Ride Aid. However, they don't sell fresh vegtables, meat or fish which makes it imposible for a mom & pop store to open shop. After all, you can't stay in business selling only fruits and veggies unless you're operating out of a food cart on the street and that's exactly the only place you can find them in the city.

When I lived in Mpls. in the late '70's, there was a tiny grocery store that served the local 'old world' locals. Many did not speak English and many were elderly. The owner got up early and went to the local market supply and filled all his customers orders and delivered it to their home or they could come to the store to pick up their orders. He didn't need huge refrigeration or space and everyone had better fruits and vegetables than I ever saw in the local supermarkets.

There has been a second riot in south Los Angeles since the 1965 riots. It occurred in 1992 when the media and liberal politicians hyped the Rodney King arrest.
I always thought the cause of it was the half dozen policemen pummeling this guy who was lying on the pavement in what seemed like paroxysm of pain... all if it happening in front of some liberal media video camera. Probably a Sony.

I always thought the cause of it was the half dozen policemen pummeling this guy who was lying on the pavement in what seemed like paroxysm of pain... all if it happening in front of some liberal media video camera. Probably a Sony.

Your recall is more accurate than chipseal's. Except the media did replay the video every five minutes. I think they did that more for ratings than as part of a liberal conspiracy. Why would liberals want to start a riot?

One hero of those riots was Reginald Denny, the white trucker who was beat almost to death on camera, then came out and said he forgave those who hurt him. Coincidentally to the topic of this thread, Denny was the son of parents who ran a mom & pop grocery in Lansing, MI. They were remembered by black and white customers as good and fair people who were willing to extend credit to poor customers who were down on their luck. Their store was definitely not burned in the riots of '67 and '68.


http://img.timeinc.net/time/2007/la_riots/tur_video_a.jpg

Not having grocery stores in downtown and urban areas really is a problem. I remember when I was a young teen, every neighborhood had a small grocery store. You could walk 3 city blocks in any direction and hit a string of small mom-and-pop grocery stores. They somehow had most of what you needed - cream of this-and-that for casseroles, a meat counter, packs of noodles, rice cereal - you know - the staples for the middle class.

By the 1980's, most of them were gone - poached by the big warehouse type grocery stores. By the 1990's, the big warehouse grocery stores closed down due to competition from the newer and bigger grocery store chains. By 2006, those bigger chains were lost to Walmart superstores.

In the intererim, some low-cost cash-and-carry grocers like Aldi's and Save-a-Lot moved back downtown. They aren't huge - about the size of a 'big" grocery store in the 1960's (maybe six short aisles). They are doing well - lots of business. The customers are mostly lower income - downtown folks; the folks that seem to wears something on their heads all the time for whatever reason.

Anyway, it seems that in some cities, the downtown grocers are making a comeback. It is surely needed.


I guess that Massachusetts has been far different from the normal. I have more supermarkets than are necessary.

Walmart never really engaged the supermarket business here. The food segment has been a slow moving area for them. They have made two or three walmarts south of boston into supercenters with the pseudo grocery store, but those are really late-comers, which have been opened for less than 3-5 years. They had been operating grocery sections in Cali and other places for a long time.

Aldi's was a small supermarket chain from Germany that has continued to expand. Save-A-Lot is part of the mega chain which opens all sorts of stores such as Shaws, Albertsons, and Jewel.

During the last twenty years I had an increase in supermarkets available to me. I had four supermarkets within three miles of my location. I now have six supermarkets within three miles.

I can travel to a whole bunch within 10 miles such as Price-Rite, Shaws, Hannafords, Stop & Shop, Truccihi's,Roche's, Johnnie's, Save-A-Lot, and Star. This does not reflect how MANY different Stop & Shop's in the 10 miles.

Why is massachusetts overbuilt with supermarkets? How come we keep building supermarkets when others do not?

In this country, if there is a need for something that is actually profitable, someone will step in and fill it. If it is not profitable , no one steps in. If you feel that passionate about it, open a grocery with low prices and nutritional value in the poorest of neighborhoods. Get back to me on how that works or more important how long it can sustain itself.

In this country, if there is a need for something that is actually profitable, someone will step in and fill it. If it is not profitable , no one steps in. If you feel that passionate about it, open a grocery with low prices and nutritional value in the poorest of neighborhoods. Get back to me on how that works or more important how long it can sustain itself.

Prediction: Somebody will "infill" inner city areas with supermarkets within the next 5 years, and they'll make a fortune. It'll probably be Walmart, since they've reached saturation level in their traditional rural and exurban areas. They have to expand somewhere. Most of their expansion will be in the developing world, but I think they'll also go for the domestic and European urban markets.

Again, I hate to keep harping on it, but the issue isn't poor neighborhoods. The issue is inner city neighborhoods--which covers a wide range of income levels.

I can't speak outside of Pittsburgh , but here the inner city is inhabited by people who can't afford to move to the suburbs ,More affluent people who are living in large condo$$$ and can pay to park thier Lexus's and drive to the suburbs to shop, and young "Hipsters" who give up their cars to afford the affluent peoples housing so they are close to where the club scene is. My Neice lives in D.C. and parks her car in the out lying areas so the trip to the store takes all day.

I would say that that poverty and crime are probably not major reasons for the lack of grocery stores in cities and inner suburbs. Upscale inner city neighborhoods are affected just as much--but most people have cars to take them to the suburban markets.

For reasons, I would look more to:

Stores want to be close to interstate highways for supply trucks.
Banks, investors and insurance companies are less willing to invest in inner cities.
Big chains have a policy of reducing fixed expenses by locating where the taxes and real estate are lower.
This is aided by both by city commercial taxes that are too high,
and by "pro-development" state laws that require big cities to extend utility services to outlying communities.
Willingness of the public to foot the bill for new roads to outlying shopping districts.
The big box chains are literally unable to think outside the box. They've failed to come up with imaginative store designs that are more suited to urban areas: Smaller footprints with two or three stories to reduce fixed costs, smaller parking lots with better public transit and bike access, less square footage, etc.


And of course the various local zoning ordinances and restrictive covenants that keep commercial businesses away from residential areas and prohibit mixed residential commercial use in many places.

I'd been fortunate though when I lived in Detroit's inner city it was either near Wayne State or in Southwest Detroit and both areas were reasonably well served by local independent super markets, as is my current neighbourhood. Not all areas of Detroit or some of her poorer suburbs are well served however, especially since A&P who operated the local Farmer Jack markets pulled out of Michigan.

then finding a job and making money should never be a problem

You would think, but it's a different kind of resourcefulness. Again, it's not so much that poor people aren't that bright, but that they've been conditioned to be content with what they've got. Reaching out and trying something new is, well, new to them.

Prediction: Somebody will "infill" inner city areas with supermarkets within the next 5 years, and they'll make a fortune. It'll probably be Walmart, since they've reached saturation level in their traditional rural and exurban areas. They have to expand somewhere. Most of their expansion will be in the developing world, but I think they'll also go for the domestic and European urban markets.


From what I see of Walmarts in my area, a lot of the clientele comes from the inner city. They get to Walmart via the bus or come in off the freeway. If the high price of gasoline had continued, I'm sure it would have impacted Walmart's bottom line.

As it is, they must see the potential of inner city clients. I'd guess they would shoot for some new brand, like they did with their Sam's stores, or perhaps look in franchising. I don't see Walmart superstores working....

One thing that does occur to me about why their tends to be so little grocery and other development in the inner city.

Most of the larger chains aren't interested in actually serving the public, more than they are interested in opportunities for growth. Until recently, most of the growth was outside the city core.

That does seem to be changing and may be helped by changing transportation modes and habits.

I know there's an exurban mall that got started about 6-7 years ago here. And I know a number of people[ me for sure...] who have complained about it being too far away.

When people starting viewing a 10 mile drive as being "too far to pick up groceries"... or clothing or whatever, the big chains and their smaller brethren may start to look inward, so to speak..

Your recall is more accurate than chipseal's. Except the media did replay the video every five minutes. I think they did that more for ratings than as part of a liberal conspiracy. Why would liberals want to start a riot?

It is true that the media played the video. However, they only played a small portion. If they had played any more then the very short snippet they did, the audience would have had a very different reaction to it. Very similar, no doubt, to the reaction of the jury that acquitted the officers in question. The riot was because of the acquittals, not the beating.

The media (which is overwhelmingly liberal) spun the story that fit their world view- The Uprising! As any Google of "the uprising" and "1992" or "Rodney King" will show in less than 4 seconds.

Only a cynic would imagine that folks in the news business would welcome a riot to cover! Why, to think that such noble souls would step on the heads of the suffering to advance their careers? Heavens!

One of the lasting changes from the riots was that LAPD changed their motto. It had been, up to that time, "To serve and protect". It was changed to "We will treat you like a King".

From what I see of Walmarts in my area, a lot of the clientele comes from the inner city. They get to Walmart via the bus or come in off the freeway. If the high price of gasoline had continued, I'm sure it would have impacted Walmart's bottom line.

As it is, they must see the potential of inner city clients. I'd guess they would shoot for some new brand, like they did with their Sam's stores, or perhaps look in franchising. I don't see Walmart superstores working....

Walmart did see revenue declines in the 1st and 2nd quarters due to gas prices. Their business is very sensitive to fuel prices largely because of their remote locations. That's one reason I think they'll start building in the inner cities. They'll figure out a way to make the stores with smaller footprints--maybe two stories and smaller parking lots--to cut down on real estate costs and taxes. It's a smart business. They're not afraid to try something new and then stop if it doesn't work.

As for inner city clients, there's a perception that many African-Americans don't like to shop in Walmarts. So maybe they will do business under another name in inner cities.