Folding Bikes - Four-Month Update to Tikit Review

I've posted the four-month update (http://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/tikit/four.html) to my Bike Friday Tikit review.

Good review, except for the anti-Brompton slant. I think the Tikit is an excellent bike that can stand tall on its own without disparaging other bikes. While your review of the Tikit is fair and sound, given that you have spent considerable time with it, your views on the Brompton seems highly biased and unfair.

While your review of the Tikit is fair and sound, given that you have spent considerable time with it, your views on the Brompton seems highly biased and unfair.

What item did you find unfair?

I must have missed something. I think you had less favorable things to say about the Speed P8 and I've got one and love it and your review didn't bother me at all.

I saw it as your opinion. Good review.

John

A review is an opinion; I thought the opinion that the tikit is better than the Brompton wasn't brommie-bashing, it was just an opinion.

A review is an opinion; I thought the opinion that the tikit is better than the Brompton wasn't brommie-bashing, it was just an opinion.

Unless one has first hand knowledge of the bicycle in question, is it possible for other readers to know if the opinion is "bashing" or not?

I believe bykerouac actually regularly rides a Tikiit & a Brompton, so would reasonably be in a good position to comment on the review?

Good review, except for the anti-Brompton slant. I think the Tikit is an excellent bike that can stand tall on its own without disparaging other bikes. While your review of the Tikit is fair and sound, given that you have spent considerable time with it, your views on the Brompton seems highly biased and unfair.

That seems a touch over sensitive bykerouac. All he said was:


I've recently tested the Brompton M3L and S2L as well: in short, the Tikit rides smoother (despite the Brompton's rear suspension) and is much more stable as well (more trail). And the Brompton is quite cramped compared to my Tikit: in fact, its reach appears to be about the same as a size small Tikit. Those are the tradeoffs to achieve the Brompton's ultrasmall fold, I guess.

It is commonly recognised that the Brompton, although by far the smallest folding folder has one or two compromises as far as ride and size in order to achieve that fold. All he is saying is that the B has a smaller cockpit than the larger tickit and is more twitchy and harsh. What's not to agree with there? Harshness could be down to tyre choice or pressure anyway.
:)

I did have a 2008 Dahon Speed P8 (heavily modified with custom front derailleur; 18speed; upgraded special hubs for Dahon), with standard Big Apple tires.
Did a comparison with a lightly modified Tikit but standard Marthon tires.
The Marathon on Tikit feels harsh, but overall the Tikit is less tiring to ride (the big apple on speed p8 helps a lot softening the ride).
Did a comparison also to a Dahon Speed Pro. The tikit still shines more (less tiring, more compliant ride).
The standard tikit has, IMO, puny components and too narrow of handlebar. But it has superb chassis.

Never have I ride a Brompton, so cant make fair comparison.

Did a comparison with Birdy. I didnt find the suspension helps the ride. I felt disconnected from the terrain.

The biggest surprise on the Tikit is that I dont need to make adjustment coming from the tikit back to Intense Spider and my Titus Motolite. And that's a very big achievement for such small wheels.
It is in"tikit"oxicating.

It is in"tikit"oxicating.

Oh no :eek: The BF punning malady is contagious.

Your informative review highlights the fact that the Tikit, though well-designed, is a relatively new design, and issues are still being worked out. The review would be even better with some close-up photographs.

Regards
T

Now now fellas, clearly whichever bike is my favorite is the best and anyone who thinks otherwise is an anti-me bike bashing zealot. ;)

I didn't think that there was bashing involved. The OP stated what his opinions of the Brompton were based on.

I recall that there was a long comparison to an older Dahon on another website owned by the OP. Perhaps there should be a link to that review embedded in this review. (Or maybe I missed it)

EDIT: I see the link on the top right. Apparently this review is a subset of the original review.

I`d say the Brompton and the BF is two different bikes, so trying to agree on what is the best one is not realy comparable.

Brompton is for shorter trips and smaller fold and BF is for longer faster rides and not the smallest fold. Would make sense that a persons need, the area he rides in and the places he wants to take the bike (car boot, train, shops) and also size weight and shape of body makes it impossible to compare.

I`we got many bikes, and each one is best for its use. Guess I`d keep a BF- like folder if I could only keep one. If I lived car free in a town using PT a lot I guess I`d get a Brompton.

Last year I rode 3 folders. Swift, Tiket and Brompton.

My favorite riding bike was Swift. Second Tiket and third Brompton. I bought the Brompton and have no regrets -- for my purpose it's great ---urban lifestyle Brooklyn and Manhattan. I love the bike-- it's the best folder out there as far as I'm concerned.

Before I enter this discussion, let us review the previous posts first:


Your informative review highlights the fact that the Tikit, though well-designed, is a relatively new design, and issues are still being worked out. The review would be even better with some close-up photographs.

Regards
T

The other brands have had time to work out their mission/construction techniques for a long period of time. I cannot afford to be someone else's paying lab mouse for a newly developed conception bike. Dahons are cheap enough for that sort of thing.


I`d say the Brompton and the BF is two different bikes, so trying to agree on what is the best one is not realy comparable.

Brompton is for shorter trips and smaller fold and BF is for longer faster rides and not the smallest fold. Would make sense that a persons need, the area he rides in and the places he wants to take the bike (car boot, train, shops) and also size weight and shape of body makes it impossible to compare.

I`we got many bikes, and each one is best for its use. Guess I`d keep a BF- like folder if I could only keep one. If I lived car free in a town using PT a lot I guess I`d get a Brompton.

If I wanted a bike for riding distances, I would still opt for a non folding one. Then I could select one that reflects my cycling needs, rather than a useful transportation from point A to B without theft worry. The Brompton does what I like out of a bike without sacrificing too much in handling or being durable in construction. And the compact fold is the key feature of that bike. The bike itself reminds of of my father's beloved 1960s classic Mini Cooper in it's way-right down to it's rubber cone suspension system.


Last year I rode 3 folders. Swift, Tiket and Brompton.

My favorite riding bike was Swift. Second Tiket and third Brompton. I bought the Brompton and have no regrets -- for my purpose it's great ---urban lifestyle Brooklyn and Manhattan. I love the bike-- it's the best folder out there as far as I'm concerned.

A bike not used is one thing that wastes it's owner time and storage space. So when you have to spend more than 500 US dollars for a mega bucks bike to be stolen at the first lock up, well then you could see why I exclusively switched to folders now.

Would I personally buy a tikit? Not really as I don't ride in groups much or could fit the bike inside as well as my present ones. Is it too expensive? No if you factor in being actually make in a first world country with great parts. I think that the accessories are bit "over the top" when you think about the lesser price alternatives either homemade or at the dollar store. As for being attractive to the masses, good luck. They all want still go to the local department discount stores for the Magmas and the Roadmasters. Or bug the LBS for the cheapest bikes they offer. I never tire of that unique spaced out look people give me when I tell them how much a good folding bikes are priced. And mine are 2 years or older!

Before I enter this discussion, let us review the previous posts first:



The other brands have had time to work out their mission/construction techniques for a long period of time. I cannot afford to be someone else's paying lab mouse for a newly developed conception bike. Dahons are cheap enough for that sort of thing.



If I wanted a bike for riding distances, I would still opt for a non folding one. Then I could select one that reflects my cycling needs, rather than a useful transportation from point A to B without theft worry. The Brompton does what I like out of a bike without sacrificing too much in handling or being durable in construction. And the compact fold is the key feature of that bike. The bike itself reminds of of my father's beloved 1960s classic Mini Cooper in it's way-right down to it's rubber cone suspension system.



A bike not used is one thing that wastes it's owner time and storage space. So when you have to spend more than 500 US dollars for a mega bucks bike to be stolen at the first lock up, well then you could see why I exclusively switched to folders now.

Would I personally buy a tikit? Not really as I don't ride in groups much or could fit the bike inside as well as my present ones. Is it too expensive? No if you factor in being actually make in a first world country with great parts. I think that the accessories are bit "over the top" when you think about the lesser price alternatives either homemade or at the dollar store. As for being attractive to the masses, good luck. They all want still go to the local department discount stores for the Magmas and the Roadmasters. Or bug the LBS for the cheapest bikes they offer. I never tire of that unique spaced out look people give me when I tell them how much a good folding bikes are priced. And mine are 2 years or older!


I don't think any of the issues highlighted in the 4-month review are showstoppers, and didn't mean to imply they were when I praised the reviewer for highlighting them. Bike Friday's reputation for supporting their customers would mitigate any worry I might have about the kinks they're ironing out. Since you bring Dahon up, one might point to situations where replacement hinges are on back order for several months.

Regards
T

I love both my Brompton and my tikit. The endless debates found on this thread and others, and I suspect more to come in the coming months just attest to how good these 2 bikes are and thus, their fiercely loyal and happy owners.

The Brompton reeks tradition, heritage and stands for all things British. I think its got an edge over the tikit in built quality and looks like it will last a long, long time. I won't say more about its much envied folded size save that in some circumstances, its the only way to go. But its NOT the most compact folder yet - my Carry Me stick folder does a better job in this respect (Makeinu, insert witty affirmation here...).

The tikit is the more enjoyable bike to ride, in my opinion. Its handling is razor sharp and I can ride hands off easily for miles in utter confidence. The hyperfold system is brilliant, entertaining and fast, but does seem to need minor adjustments. Not a biggie really. Though its folded size isnt so compact as the Brommie, 95% of the time in my use its not an issue. Both fits easily into the tiny hatch of my little Toyota Yaris with rear seat up. And the BF company aftersales back up is legendary. I may be wrong but Brompton will not entertain customers direct and prefers to push this responsibility to the LBS, which in some cases, are a pain to deal with.

I will highly recommend folks to own 2 of these renown 16" folders, and enjoy each of them for their different merits. Why limit yourself? Now post less, and get out there and ride your foldies! I'm just so grateful for the endless fun foldies bring us.



The tikit travelled in a suitcase, and the Brompton was in a Ikea "Dimpa" tire bag and both were exempted from additional ferry fees on this touring trip in Southern Malaysia. The suitcase carried all our stuff and we had a heaps of fun riding as a family on foldies!

That's so tight. The family that folds together holds together. Tikit or Brommie - it's all good!

After reading the review, I don't get where people are seeing Brompton bashing. Then again, I don't own a Brommie or Dahon so it might just be a matter of bias on the reader's part.

I found the review to be pretty good. It detailed the good and the bad. And it should be noted that the "bad" was mostly minor bits. I'm not sure I understand folder fanatic's violent reaction to the review. Every folding bike is an experiment of sorts... and we're all lab rats. Sure, there is something to be said for Brompton's and Dahon's long history, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't look for innovation elsewhere.

Anyway... I need to get back to my vacation (in Brazil)... later all.

--sam

What item did you find unfair?

Sorry for the delay in answering, I have been traveling. As I mentioned before, I do find your revies to be a good one. What I find unfair and unnecessary though is the anti-Brompton slant. As your title implies, you have tested the Tikit extensively for 4 months. How long have you tested the Brompton, a couple of days, or hours? If this is your basis for highly recommending the Tikit over the B then I do think your conclusion is rather unfair. I do realize though that it is your opinion and I respect that, though I find some of the issues you have with the Brompton rather debatable.

Bashing is a strong word, and I don't think your review comes close to that (I never did use the word bashing, though I used disparaging and biased). I just think that the Tikit can well stand on its own merits without having to resort to downplay another bike. These folders are excellent bikes.

Anyway, this is just my opinion of a review. Happy Holidays all!

How long have you tested the Brompton, a couple of days, or hours? If this is your basis for highly recommending the Tikit over the B then I do think your conclusion is rather unfair.

I think this is a variation on ad homenim. I can't afford to own both bikes, therefore my conclusions must be unfair. Sure, my experience with Bromptons is indeed much less than with Tikits. But I went after it in good faith, and armed with a lot of measurement tools from my lab. I even brought someone else who's never ridden either bike, so I'd have an unbiased opinion.

Further, I do not believe there's been much disagreement here with the the specific conclusions I made. Here's one more sop though: the Brompton's non-telescoping stem is stiffer.

If you have a specific claim that you disagree with, post it here. I modify my reviews (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=434986&highlight=tikit+review#post_message_6972261) in response to feedback.

I think you based your assumption on having extensive experience on one bike, while having comparatively nil on another, and that is what I find unfair. I don't want to see this as a Tikit vs Brompton review, and I hope you don't mean it to be too. As for specific claims, there have been lots mentioned in this forum. Perhaps to balance out Anatoly's opinion, you can factor in the views of others who have experienced both bikes.

Anyway, I am not really surprised if you found the Brompton wanting. I think vanilla Bromptons need to be tweaked to improve the fit and ride. Once you do you will have a more pleasant experience.

"I think you based your assumption on having extensive experience on one bike, while having comparatively nil on another, and that is what I find unfair."

With due respect given, I find the above quote by bykerouac a bit of a concern. One way to read this is that those who own a bike extensively will form a natural bias for it, thus will not be able to give a fair opinion on other bikes. On the contrary, knowing one bike very well will give you a strong reference point to compare others against.

I have owned a certain triangle bike "extensively" and got rid of it as it took me a year of riding to decide that its shortcomings could not make up for its strengths. This was highlighted clearly when I jumped onto another bike, namely the Carry Me and bought that.

For what's it worth, I feel feijai's comments about his tikit (note spelling - small t, not capital T) & Brompton are largely agreeable to me. I speak as a person who has owned both bikes, the Brompton for a longer period of time.

Thanks for sharing your passion here guys!

Thanks for piping up, Oldies. What I mean by unfair is that if you are going to strongly recommend one bike in which you have extensive experience, and in the process of doing so discredit and single out another bike while having only cursory experience with it.

Feijai, I know that you have shared your opinion as honestly as you can, as did I. I am sure that there is no malice in your intent, as I would like to assure you that there is none in mine either. I also see that you live in Alexandria, Va, and I do bike there from time to time as I have numerous relatives in that area (I am in Germantown MD right now, actually). Sometimes I visit a cousin who lives in Lorton and we bike from Mt. Vernon to DC and back, and in the process we go through Alexandria. Perhaps one day when it is warmer we can meet in Alexandria, bike together, compare bikes if you will and see the mods that I have made to my Brompton to make it fit and ride better. I am what you may call a bike person and I enjoy meets like these. Anyway have to run, will be back in a while.

[quote="feijai in 4-month review"]
the tikit "rides smoother [than the Brompton] (despite the Brompton's rear suspension) [


and is much more stable as well (more trail). And the Brompton is quite cramped compared to my Tikit: in fact, its reach appears to be about the same as a size small Tikit. Those are the tradeoffs to achieve the Brompton's ultrasmall fold, I guess....the Tikit is a better bike than the Brompton in every feature except for one. Folded size. It folds faster; it has real bike geometry; it handles and steers much better; it rolls more realistically when folded; it has standard parts (a big deal), it rides smoother, it has a better warranty, etc. Only get a Brompton if you must fold down to its level of compactness.

the tikit rides smoother [than the Brompton] (despite the Brompton's rear suspension) ... I've decided not to install a suspension seatpost. The bike has proven adequately smooth for my purposes. Still, it's far from my (non-suspended) old steel mountain bike.

So, in terms of the smoothness of their ride over bumps:

Old steel unsuspended MTB > stock tikit > Brompton

Were the tires equally fat on the tikit and the Brompton? Inflated to the same air pressure? On the tikit, what is the distance, o.c., between BB and rear hub? Is this distance the same for all sizes?

Regards
T

Were the tires equally fat on the tikit and the Brompton? Inflated to the same air pressure?


The tikit was on stock Marathons inflated to near maximum. The Brompton was on, I *believe*, Brompton High Pressure tires. Stupidly I cannot say for sure: they certainly looked roughly equivalent in width. They have the same max PSI. All I can say is: the Marathons are not famous for being comfy nor efficient tires. They're just durable.



On the tikit, what is the distance, o.c., between BB and rear hub? Is this distance the same for all sizes?


It looks like 16 3/8", which I believe was pretty close to what the Bromptons were. I think all the tikits have the same rear triangle, and only vary in top tube length and handlebar configuration.

[distance from BB to rear hub on tikit] looks like 16 3/8", which I believe was pretty close to what the Bromptons were. I think all the tikits have the same rear triangle, and only vary in top tube length and handlebar configuration.


The Brompton is (EDIT: not*) much shorter there; the distance between its BB and rear hub is about (edit: 16) inches.
Regards
T

*Note to self: put down the spiked eggnog when holding tape measure

If the difference in tire pressure and length of rear triangle are negligible, perhaps your perception of a smoother ride on the tikit (vs Brompton) can be explained by how much of your weight is shifted forward on your tikit vs how much was shifted back onto the seat when you rode the Brompton. You wrote that the Brompton cockpit felt too short for you, that it was comparable to the small tikit, so you were probably sitting in a more upright position on the Brompton. Which of the two bikes is the smoother over bumps could then vary from rider to rider, depending on their height/reach, riding position, and weight.

Regards
T

Which of the two bikes is the smoother over bumps could then vary from rider to rider, depending on their height/reach, riding position, and weight.


Very true. But what I didn't say in the review (but did say elsewhere here in another thread) is that I brought another person along with me, who's got a much smaller reach and is much lighter. That person also thought (strongly) that the tikit was smoother. It was not expected: they've got the same size wheels, about the same tires, the Brompton's got a bigger fork rake, and the Brompton's got a bit of rear suspension. Go figure.

... they've got the same size wheels, about the same tires, the Brompton's got a bigger fork rake, and the Brompton's got a bit of rear suspension. Go figure.

Believe me, go figure is exactly what I'm trying to do :)

When you say your friend, who weighs less and has a shorter reach than you, also thought "the" tikit was smoother than the Brompton, is it your large tikit he was riding?

It could be that more of his weight was shifted forward when he was riding the tikit than when riding the Brompton. Adjustment of the Brompton reach (e.g. with an Aberhallo stem and lower bars) could produce a smoother ride (rumpwise) vs the stock Brompton.

Regards
T

When you say your friend, who weighs less and has a shorter reach than you, also thought "the" tikit was smoother than the Brompton, is it your large tikit he was riding?


Yes. (It's a Medium tikit btw).



It could be that more of his weight was shifted forward when he was riding the tikit than when riding the Brompton. Adjustment of the Brompton reach (e.g. with an Aberhallo stem and lower bars) could produce a smoother ride (rumpwise) vs the stock Brompton.


Possible. At any rate, smoothness has not been a big issue for me: we were just surprised to find the Brompton to be harsher given its rear suspension and its fork rake. What is really of concern to me the twitchy steering and the very small reach. And the custom stuff of course. The reach could be dealt with a bit with an adjustable stem.