Road Cycling - Shifting w/ downtubies

Just wondering what the strategy is for quickly and stable-y shifting with downtube shifters is? They were kinda before my time and I just acquired a bike with 'em and can't help but feel slow, clumsy, awkward and unstable when I go to shift. They are indexed at least though! Any tips from the "veterans" out there? I may just see what I can scrounge up in the STI shifter bin at work tomorrow :rolleyes:

build your legs so you wont have to shift as often :D

i use index in the rear and theyre fine. the only problem is the front triple... if upshift, for example, id have to overshift for it to climb to the larger ring, then i have to "fine tune" it backwards so that it wont rub the chain... quite time consuming but unavoidable

Man, the great thing about downtube shifters is the way you can just about feel the chain move through your fingers. It's a real direct connection between your hand and the derailures. If there's a need to finnesse anything, downtube shifters are the bomb. If STI/Ergo is like the WWW, then using down-tube shifters is like writing in cursive. If you can, switch off the indexing and go with the flow.

Once you have some practice, it won't take but a fraction of a second to make each shift. If you're on the drops, you just swing your hand down and back. Generally, do front shifts with the left hand and back shifts with the right, but you can do both with one hand, even both at the same time on occasion.

All that said, I prefer STI/Ergo or barcons (when I have gears to shift). There aren't a lot of times when you can't shift because you can't take your hands off the bars, but those times are important.

Yeah, here's a tip from an old fart. Back in 'ye olde' days, most guys would ensure their left brake lever opperated the front wheel. Meaning, if you need to brake suddenly while stuck changing gears on the down tube (assuming with your right hand), you can brake hard with your left hand. For some reason most riders in Australia have their front brake conected to the right lever, yet most Euro pros seem to have it the other way 'round. The 'Euro' way allows the rider to gear-down while braking heavily.

Hmm..that didn't really answer your question; it was more of a safety tip

Hmm..that didn't really answer your question; it was more of a safety tip

Helpful just the same! I spent awhile tonite playing with the shifting and am a little more comfortable with it. It reminds me of the first time I tried to grab a waterbottle off my bike on a mountain bike.

I have been using downtube friction for over 35 years and still do today and see no need to change! There is no weird science about it, it just takes practice and the more you practice the better you will get. Plus every friction shifter is different, some take more lever throw then others to move the chain the same distance. Most you have to relieve pedal pressure a bit in order to shift, especially going up hills; with the Suntour I don't have to. But as Seely said it takes practice much like grabbing a water bottle and taking a drink while still remain pedaling as before. You do have to anticipate ahead when you think you might need to shift. All of this is similar to a manuel transmission vs an automatic.

Friction shifting bikes were and are the most dependable systems ever made for a bicyle even to this day! Especially the last models of friction shifting from the early 80's. Even if you crash your bike and bend the rear derailleur you can still get the darn thing to shift, you don't have to worry anymore about shifting between gears because your index system went out of adjustment; nor are you limited to just 1 or 3 gears per click, you can go from the tallest to the smallest gear in one throw and back again with another throw. And believe it or not a friction system can shift as fast as the newer STi or Ergo can, the only thing that makes you slower is the downtube because you do have to move your hand to that point to shift, but if you had barend shifters than that disavantage would be eliminated.

Now, Mr Froze, I'm quite the retro grouch (I still use toe clips and straps) but I will NEVER go back to using downtube shifters. I appreciate the advantages you've detailed in your post, but, plain and simple, downtube shifters are DANGEROUS!! Using STIs, your hands are seldom off the brakes. Ever been caught changing your downtubes, then have to suddenly slam your brakes on? Yes, we all did back in 'ye olde' days. It was horrible.

The other huge advantage with STIs is that you can change gears whilst sprinting out of the saddle. This is huge! Sean Kelly reckons he might've won the 1989 worlds if he could've changed gears during the sprint.

Have you ever tried STIs?

The only thing the pros don't like is that STIs are a bit heavier.

Man, the great thing about downtube shifters is the way you can just about feel the chain move through your fingers. It's a real direct connection between your hand and the derailures. If there's a need to finnesse anything, downtube shifters are the bomb. If STI/Ergo is like the WWW, then using down-tube shifters is like writing in cursive. If you can, switch off the indexing and go with the flow.

Man, that's deep...... It's true and I agree with you there.

I changed my down tubers to barcons for CX racing. Downtube on a CX course is scary. But on the road I never had a problem w/ them. I like the friction mode much better than the click index too. Now with STI I on my new bike I will never go back esp b/c of the standing while shifting thing. But I do miss being able to throw my chain over 3 or 4 cogs. I had to change my hill attacks b/c of that but all in all I see the sti as an upgrade.

As far as strategy goes I think if you keep riding it should come natuarlly. When in the drops you just drop your hand down and there they are, shift. I am a rightie so I use my Right hand to shift both the rear on the right tube side and the front on the left. They are old Suntour shifters btw ant they are on a 1983 bike. They really do seem to last for ever too.

If you can, switch off the indexing and go with the flow.



Man, baby steps! The downtube shifters are enough for me to learn for now :o

Oh, it'll be fine. My 1978 Peugeot came before indexing, so you're living the good life!

Actually, my biggest caveat is: don't try to shift when you are running high crank rpm's (peddling your saddle off). Your center of balance will not be stable (you can guess how I know).

Otherwise, they're ok. You can fine tune each shift, catching each gear perfectly.

I ride both, and to tell the truth I find I shift more with the Ergo levers.
That said there is something magic, some mojo about Suntour or Campy
downtube shifters (I think suntour just about perfected em) that is just missing
from Ergo/Sti. Sure we all had bad times when having to brake hard when shifting,
but really, that doesn't happen all that much. The worst thing is if you overshift
on a climb and that goes away with practice.
SchreiberBike, I beg to disagree, downtube is more like Caligraphy than cursive.
Cursive would be internal gearing (ala SA), and block printing a Cambio Corsa?

Marty

Well, ya gotta ride the bike one-handed to shift downtube levers so practice that. I'd also bet that much of the awkwardness and instability is because you're looking down at the lever. After riding for a couple of weeks, you'll probably be able to shift without even looking (but be careful not to get your fingers in the front wheel) which will greatly increase your stability.

Just wondering what the strategy is for quickly and stable-y shifting with downtube shifters is? They were kinda before my time and I just acquired a bike with 'em and can't help but feel slow, clumsy, awkward and unstable when I go to shift. They are indexed at least though! Any tips from the "veterans" out there? I may just see what I can scrounge up in the STI shifter bin at work tomorrow :rolleyes:

I used downtube shifters before I went bar end and then STI.

But with donwtube shifters:
Try and shift BEFORE the hills, it is harder to shift using downtubes than STIs when standing tho. I never did master shifting and standing, I had to sit, shift and then stand again. With STIs I can remain standing.

Practice shifting so that you do not weave, moving your hand from handlebar to shifter and back can result in some weaving, but with practice this goes. This means you have to ease up on the peal stroke a bit, as with ay shifting system.

You can use the one hand to shift, preferably your left to keep your right hand on the rear brake to 'feather' it when you need to. Again, shifting both levers with your left hand only takes practice as you have to reach accross. I don't mean shifting both levers at the same time BTW, I mean, when you need to shift the rear derailler use your left hand not your right so as to keep the right on the rear brake.

In general, STIs will make you fel less clumsy or slow. BUT they have a lifespan of oh 3-6 years, are not servicable (break em toss em) and they are more...fussy i.e. require precie adjustment on your rear derailler. Downtubes last forever, durable, less or zero mantenance and not as fussy.

It's a tradeoff. If I where to recommend anything, I would suggest STIs first, then bar end shifters, and downtubes are a dead last. I would not recommend STIs on a touring machine tho. Go with bar ends, again for touring you need somewthing that is not fussy.

MHO.

Digger

Didn't bar-end shifters die off because people would hit them with their knees while sprinting?

Yukky

I use my right hand for both sides of the DT shifters. I can move both simultaneously, so , on a 3x7 system I go from mid/1 to small/3. That is the next smallest gear in my setup.
I use egolevers as well. They are more convenient, but I enjoy the direct feel of DTs.
As far as balance, when you reach for the DT, bob down a little, to lower your centre of gravity. Changing should be very swift.

I use my RH brake lever for the front. I've never had a problem trying to change and brake at the same time. I dont try to change in tricky situations, whereas with ergolevers, I would.

The only real problem Ive had with DTs is with a worn out glove, which caught on the lever. Eeek. Has me very worried for a second, so I am careful about gloves. My latest mitts have some loops to aid removal, but Im taking some scissors to the loops.

Is it possible that we are raising entire generations of cyclists who no longer know how to shift without STI/Ergo's help? Kinda sounds to me like entire generations that have no clue what a C: prompt is... hmm is Microsoft and Shimano teaming up for a Windows/STI shift version that requires you to get off your bike once in a while to reset the system after a crash?

Didn't bar-end shifters die off because people would hit them with their knees while sprinting?

Yukky


I never did, but I can see it. Its sticks out there doesn' t it.

Digger

Is it possible that we are raising entire generations of cyclists who no longer know how to shift without STI/Ergo's help? Kinda sounds to me like entire generations that have no clue what a C: prompt is... hmm is Microsoft and Shimano teaming up for a Windows/STI shift version that requires you to get off your bike once in a while to reset the system after a crash?


OH GOD I'M OLD!

On one of my road bikes an STI shifting system is installed. It has been a very pleasant system to use. The STI is clearly the winner of the "maintains maximum rider control while in the act of shifting" award. That being said, I was raised on road bikes where you shifted by feel. Then I graduated to the SIS (DT) system in the late 80's. When I recently restored my first SIS Italian roadbike to better than new condition, I decided to keep it a DT bike. A few of my reasons: The weight difference between my DuraAce DT shifters with Shimano brake levers is substantially less that an DuraAce STI setup and it costs a lot less as well. When was the last time you saw bike stuff that weighed less and cost less? DT shifters are virtually maintenance free, not true with the STIs. DT shifters are sooo easy to work on if you must, not true with the STIs. Another reason (though minor) is aesthetics. I believe the DT setup with simple brake levers to be more pleasing to the eye. And lastly, I have never felt that using DT shifters put me at risk. However, just like driving a standard transmission with manual clutch versus an automatic, there are certain adjustments you make to your driving style to avoid inconveniences or mishaps. Or just like the adjustments we made when we started using clipless pedals.
Anyway, I have both systems and ride them both. I like them both.

The other huge advantage with STIs is that you can change gears whilst sprinting out of the saddle. This is huge! Sean Kelly reckons he might've won the 1989 worlds if he could've changed gears during the sprint.

The only thing the pros don't like is that STIs are a bit heavier.

Good point 531. That's got to be about the only time LeMond beat Kelly in a sprint! I was glad to see Greg get his second rainbow jersey, but any betting man would take Kelly 100 times out of 100 in a head to head sprint!

Many pros are following LA's lead and putting a friction DT shifter on the front derailleur on their climbing bikes to cut the weight penalty.

Man, with all the talk about safety, speed and control, you'd think that half the people here were riding the Belgian cobbles on a daily basis.

hmm, maybe I just have big hands, but does anyone hook their thumb over the top tube to keep their hand stable when shifting a friction D/T shifter? you see, I put a 9 speed cassette on a 5 speed friction set up, and its like half a millimeter and you shift...quite a hassle...I like the STI on my lemond.

I have friction shift campy downtube levers on my commuter and wouldn't change it. I doubt for the experienced rider there's much more than milliseconds of difference between going from the downtube shifter to the brake and going from the handlebar tops to the brake.

Is it possible that we are raising entire generations of cyclists who no longer know how to shift without STI/Ergo's help? Kinda sounds to me like entire generations that have no clue what a C: prompt is... hmm is Microsoft and Shimano teaming up for a Windows/STI shift version that requires you to get off your bike once in a while to reset the system after a crash?

like playing tennis without playing with wooden racquet? I think John McEnroe said that.

Is it possible that we are raising entire generations of cyclists who no longer know how to shift without STI/Ergo's help? Kinda sounds to me like entire generations that have no clue what a C: prompt is... hmm is Microsoft and Shimano teaming up for a Windows/STI shift version that requires you to get off your bike once in a while to reset the system after a crash?

Something pretty similar exists: Mavic Mektronic

lot's and lot's of good stuff said! suntour_rider rules for talking about a c:\ prompt.

i have a love/hate relationship with my STIs, and i had a love/dislike relationship with my indexed DT shifters.

i haven't been riding road bikes very long by any stretch of the imagination (about a year and 4 months). my first road bike last winter was built up as a commuter, full fenders, riser bars, DT shifters (later i switched the bars to home-made bullhorns)...it was a 7-speed with a triple. shifting? hell, i NEVER shifted on that thing. i kept it at 42/15 most of the time. sometimes i'd switch it to 52/whatever... getting used to shifting it was hard at first, because i had never done it before and i looked down a lot. the index shifting really started to bug me after a while because my RD wasn't very reliable, so i switched it to friction. it improved my life immensely. it was great! i could shift on the fly and not have to worry about my chain not catching, or making noise...i could micro-adjust everything!! so much control!!! sometime after i put bullhorns on the bike i began to fantisize about having STIs, just because it would put everything literally at my fingertips. so when i got a new (old) frame, i decided to go modern.

STIs are great, to an extent. i put bullhorns on this bike, put the STIs on it and everything was indeed RIGHT there. the control is really cool. it felt like i was piloting a space ship! i've been riding that set up since last may and i still like it. but my beef with STIs from the beginning has been the lack of range for shifting. 1 cog down, 3 cogs up in a stroke...kind of frustrating to go from DTs to that...also the lack of "in flight" adjustibility. with friction DTs, if something is out of whack on the rear derailluer, you can just move the shifter a little bit and it's taken care of for the most part and you can continue your ride. something gets out of whack and you're using STIs and you have to stop and fix it. the front derailluer's "trim" adjustment is adequate and functions fine for the most part, but i don't like the way it slaps against the chain when you shift back to a smaller ring. i think when i have the oportunity, i might switch back to DTs. it's not a difficult thing to do, and if i end up wanting to go back to STIs, i can do that too. someday i'll get another bike so i can have one equipped with STIs and one with DTs...someday.

Is it possible that we are raising entire generations of cyclists who no longer know how to shift without STI/Ergo's help? Kinda sounds to me like entire generations that have no clue what a C: prompt is... hmm is Microsoft and Shimano teaming up for a Windows/STI shift version that requires you to get off your bike once in a while to reset the system after a crash?

And the flip-flop hub folks could be equated to those who knew how to toggle the load/store panel on a PDP-8? :D

Man, with all the talk about safety, speed and control, you'd think that half the people here were riding the Belgian cobbles on a daily basis.

Maybe some of them live in southeast Michigan. ;)

Didn't bar-end shifters die off because people would hit them with their knees while sprinting?

Yukky



I never did, but I can see it. Its sticks out there doesn' t it.

Digger

Really?
I think I would blow my knee joint if I was pedaling on such an angle to hit a barcon. For CX they are great for the weight factor as others have mensioned and the micro adjustability after a crash that may bend some things up not to mension mud. But All the CX pros that I have sceen use sti though.

You can always saw an inch or 2 off the end of your drops to make bar-ends fit.

Another option is to try and mount GripShifts to the end of the drops. I did this with the original 7sp GripShifts many years ago when STI was too expensive for me and only offerred in the 600 group. I was sporting RX100. It worked pretty well and looked really clean. I'm not sure it would work with today's GripShifters though.

Is it possible that we are raising entire generations of cyclists who no longer know how to shift without STI/Ergo's help? Kinda sounds to me like entire generations that have no clue what a C: prompt is... hmm is Microsoft and Shimano teaming up for a Windows/STI shift version that requires you to get off your bike once in a while to reset the system after a crash?


Hey hey hey... when I was about 13 I bought an IBM 8086 b/c I wanted to learn DOS... my first computer was a Tandy TRS-80, the 8086 came with Windows 2.1!!! Anyways its not that I don't know HOW to shift with downtube shifters, but its that I don't know how to do so safely. My first two mountain bikes had friction shifters actually. Plus I can drive stick, and actually I can even drive a VW Autostick, and a Porsche Autostick--proud to say I was the only porter at the Porsche dealership that got to touch anything made before 1978. Boo yah! :D

Really?
I think I would blow my knee joint if I was pedaling on such an angle to hit a barcon. For CX they are great for the weight factor as others have mensioned and the micro adjustability after a crash that may bend some things up not to mension mud. But All the CX pros that I have sceen use sti though.

Never tried cyclocross, but I guess it being something sorta like MTBing where you are moving around alot on the bike then bar ends could give yer knee quite a bash.

I use bar ends on my touring bike, so I am moving slower and rarely stand on it and when i do, I am not doing it because I am racing or for a fast fitness ride so less chance of bashing a knee.

Digger

Have any of you guys ever shifted your downtubes while sprinting without taking your hands off the bars? Its an old school trick. While sprinting dip your knee down and hit the down tube shifter with it. Its a cool trick you can use to impress the retro guys.

BTY...I shifted (past tense) my DT levers with my right hand.

Roadies with right hand braking did so because its how motorcycles are set-up. If you did alot of motorpacing it kept you from getting confused.