Advocacy & Safety - So, how many of you "anti-car" nuts are parents?

Just out of curiosity, how many of you folks that think cars are evil and should never be used have kids?

I don't have kids, nor do I think cars are evil, just WAY overused. Here's a pic of some parents, at least one of whom are car haters, I'm sure... pic from http://bikeportland.org (http://bikeportland.org/)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2159/2596352293_b3691316d0_o.jpg

I'm guessing you think it's impossible to be car free AND have children????

Even tho society forces us to have a car.. And we normally have two cars. I still consider cars the cause of many of our anxieties. Why is being critical of the car culture nuts.. Being car lite helps to make one less nuts, not more.

I'm guessing you think it's impossible to be car free AND have children????

I didn't say that. Just curious. :)

Oh, by the way, that pic was from a http://www.kidicalmass.org/ event. Hopefully they will help show that being an "anti-car nut" and having a family are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

I have a very soft spot for the nutters, that wasn't a jab at them even if I think they're a wee bit off their rockers. I'm genuinely curious. :P

Don't you think the word nutters a bit pejorative, of people you really don't know... To make such an assessment one need be a forensic psychiatrist... From what I see, I'd say far more motorists are off their rocker, compared to non motorists... It's few cyclists, who act so stressed ; as so many motorists, who are behind the wheel of their 2 ton killing machine.

I suspect, on first glance at the title that this is a piece of trollduggery as I doubt that ALL of us are anti-car nuts anyway. You try moving to a new house with a bike and not everybody bikes across the country.

I tighten my chain to discourage jerking.

Just out of curiosity, how many of you folks that think cars are evil and should never be used have kids?

I still think some of of my generation here shouldn't even HAVE kids. By the way, is there a college survey on the site or a paper being written?

I have a very soft spot for the nutters, that wasn't a jab at them even if I think they're a wee bit off their rockers. I'm genuinely curious. :P

I abhor cars an have bred. Fortunately, my offspring thinks like I do.
Who do you think the world needs more of ?
Personally, I believe after experiencing what mass worship and deification of the car
and auto-centric kulture has done to society, I think ones a 'wee bit off their rockers'
to make any apologies for them at all. :)

I say live and let live. Some just can't seem to fathom other's not adhering to another' s mind set.

In Japan I didn't have a car and hauled my son to preschool and whatnot by bicycle. But in most of the usa it would be very limiting to not have a car. The public transit system here sucks and not having a car would just make one's world way too small. (allow me to make my argument once again: it is the lack of a good train/subway system that keeps bike ridership low in the usa, not the lack of bike advocacy or bike "infrastructure").

I say live and let live. Some just can't seem to fathom other's not adhering to another' s mind set.

I work on race cars to pay the rent here, CZ, so my ranting about cars is
only confined to related threads on various bike forums ...
It would fall on deaf ears(literally and figuratively) here in the place
where your car determines your evolutionary rating or hierarchy on the Caste' system. :lol:

I am basically with Lem...but not quite to the abhor level:p I have two children, now grown and on their own. My son lives car free in the UK. Daughter lives car light near Seattle. Both grew up in a car light family. Dad seldom drove, we rode bikes every where including dropping them off at school. We went grocery shopping, to the ice cream store, the park and the library on bicycles. They have each made their own choices. Due to the crappy mass transit in this country, it is nearly impossible to live car free in many locales. The area we lived car light in has become less acceptable due to the closing of the 2 closest grocery stores, the dead ending of several roads we used to use and the consolidation of the public library into 2 large branches on the outskirts of town.

Aaron:)

I am basically with Lem...but not quite to the abhor level:p I have two children, now grown and on their own. My son lives car free in the UK. Daughter lives car light near Seattle. Both grew up in a car light family. Dad seldom drove, we rode bikes every where including dropping them off at school. We went grocery shopping, to the ice cream store, the park and the library on bicycles. They have each made their own choices. Due to the crappy mass transit in this country, it is nearly impossible to live car free in many locales. The area we lived car light in has become less acceptable due to the closing of the 2 closest grocery stores, the dead ending of several roads we used to use and the consolidation of the public library into 2 large branches on the outskirts of town.

Aaron:)

^^^^ Yep.
Sort of a necassary evil. I do have a car but its not tagged/registered or anything.
Emergency use only.
It has been my experience that the positive or negative humanity factor of an area
is directly proportionate to the amount of time people spend in their cars and the
number of cars using areas infrastructure too, so there are other peripheral ramifications
of auto genuflectation on society, as well. :)

I'm all for supporting practitioners of car-lite and car-free lifestyles. When I'm not biking you each help free up the roadways for my use that much more.

This guy, his wife, and 8 children seem to get by OK on the narrow roads of Lincolnshire.

Don't know if they're anti-car as much as they're practical.

http://bicycle-diaries.blogspot.com/2008/11/20th-century-wagon-train.html

This guy, his wife, and 8 children seem to get by OK on the narrow roads of Lincolnshire.

Don't know if they're anti-car as much as they're practical.

http://bicycle-diaries.blogspot.com/2008/11/20th-century-wagon-train.html

That was also over 47 years ago! Big change in the number of cars on the roads and the general attitude of motorists. Also from what I have observed in a couple of trips to the UK they have a fairly comprehensive mass transit system. There are literally thousands of towns in the US that have NO access to any type of interstate/intrastate mass transit. They probably did in the past.

Aaron:)

I hate cars...but I have one. I hate having to work for a living, but I have a job.
I hate doing yard work, but I have a lawn.

Sorry, I think the 'nutter' here is the OP.

I had been pretty much car free for many years until my son was born... I have been car light since. There are times and things that can be difficult to deal with without a car, in a car based culture.

BTW I don't hate cars, but I do think that as a society we can do one heck of a lot better for ourselves by embracing both cycling and our own feet as part of our transportation picture.

That was also over 47 years ago! Big change in the number of cars on the roads and the general attitude of motorists. Also from what I have observed in a couple of trips to the UK they have a fairly comprehensive mass transit system. There are literally thousands of towns in the US that have NO access to any type of interstate/intrastate mass transit. They probably did in the past.

Aaron:)

Personally, I enjoyed the soundtrack as much as the bike riding in the film but it makes you wonder how much the US has "progressed" regarding transportation. Maybe they've gone a little "over-board" in personal transportation choices?

Other countries aren't as saddled with such self-inflicted problems to such a great degree and can do quite well transporting both themselves by bicycle,

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=at2w7JOD4PQ&eurl=http://everyoneforever.org/blogger/2008/12/billions-for-bikes-beats-band-aid.html

or themselves with their children.

http://i.treehugger.com/images/2007/5/24/BAKFIETS14.jpg

:D

sure, blame the kids! :)

If you're interested in friendly and informative discussions of carfree parenting, try the Living Carfree forum (http://www.bikeforums.net/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=-1&f=226).

I think many of us reading this thread are seeing a similar not so subtle implication by the OP that being car-free is fine if you don't have responsibilities like carting children around.

Well, I am child free and not car-free but I am pretty car-lite. 1 car between my wife and I and it's a Honda Fit, which on a good highway drive gives me 41 mpg and in the city we barely use it.

If those of you who have children are in need of more of the earth's resources in order to raise your children then by all means go for it to whatever degree your conscience will allow. But those "anti-car nuts" off set the balance a bit so that those children will, hopefully, have the resources they need both now and in the future.

I wouldn't refer to people who use their cars as "nuts"- if they need a car by all means use it. Nor do I see the person who chooses to be car-free as "nuts". But I can get a bit bent out of shape when I see people abuse the privilege of having an automobile and might be inclined to call them a "car nut" I don't see anything all that nutty or irresponsible about people who choose to not own a car. I appreciate their concern for the planet, their health and their community.

I am implying that. There seem to be a lot of people on this forum that say they live entirely without a car, and that everyone else should do that as well, and I'm curious how they deal with having kids. (Or if they're all kid-less.) I have a really difficult time picturing dropping the kids off at school, getting to work on time, and getting groceries on the way home while riding a bike -- so I'm genuinely curious if there are people that manage it.

I am implying that. There seem to be a lot of people on this forum that say they live entirely without a car, and that everyone else should do that as well, and I'm curious how they deal with having kids. (Or if they're all kid-less.) I have a really difficult time picturing dropping the kids off at school, getting to work on time, and getting groceries on the way home while riding a bike -- so I'm genuinely curious if there are people that manage it.

We were car light... the school was about 4-5 blocks away so he walked, at first with mom. I rode my bike to my classes and then to work. The car sat in the garage. I would pick up a few groceries on my way home, and my wife would pick up a few when she walked. We drove very little. The big drives were to the Dr., and to visit the grandparents. My wife worked at home. But any task that required all of us or the two adults and was some distance away... the truck got used. It was a little Toyota with an extended cab that allowed all three of us to fit in just fine. We also camped quite a bit down in Baja. I had been car free for about 7 years before my son was born; we thought it might be good to have a reliable car in case of emergencies and to get to the hospital for the birth. My wife had never been car free, so getting a new truck was also a replacement for her old unreliable VW.

Do you "need" a car? Depends on where you live. There are places in west Texas and probably Wyoming were you are hours away from anywhere/anyone else, even if you are driving... depending solely on a bike in such a location is probably bordering on masochistic. There are urban locations where having a car is liability... San Francisco is one of those, NYC may be one... perhaps Portland OR. Southern California is very auto centric, but there are sub areas where one may not ever need to drive.

Am I anti-car? No, not really... but I do think we should probably worship the auto a bit less, and redesign our cities to encourage cycling and walking.

I am implying that. There seem to be a lot of people on this forum that say they live entirely without a car, and that everyone else should do that as well, and I'm curious how they deal with having kids. (Or if they're all kid-less.) I have a really difficult time picturing dropping the kids off at school, getting to work on time, and getting groceries on the way home while riding a bike -- so I'm genuinely curious if there are people that manage it.

Like I said, if you're really interested in ideas, you can check out the Living Carfree forum, which is specifically on topic for this question. There are a number of carfree parents there, and a great many tips on how to use a bicycle as basic transportation for self, offspring and cargo.

Here's a link (http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/cityplus/story.html?id=6d454354-3613-476d-bb74-67d8d5904526&k=75882) to a news story that might answer some questions about carfree parenting.

There seem to be a lot of people on this forum that say they live entirely without a car, and that everyone else should do that as well, and I'm curious how they deal with having kids.

I'm neither carless, nor do I hate cars. I do limit my driving to the extent reasonable - I put more miles on my bikes each year than I do on my car. Of course, it's hard to head up to Stevens Pass by bike in the winter.

I will admit that I hate bad drivers and the absolute joke that is driver licensure in the US...

To more fully address your question, either the PI or the Times had a series in the last year or so about a family in Bellevue or Factoria (again IIRC) that had chosen to live car free. I know a number of other folks who have chosen to dispense with the car, but I don't believe that any of them have kids.

But those "anti-car nuts" off set the balance a bit so that those children will, hopefully, have the resources they need both now and in the future.

I've always wondered by what mechanism future generations can lay claim to current resources? Do we really have a responsibility to not use the last of something? I find it an odd idea because I've never once felt at a disadvantage because of the things previous generations had "used up" before it was my turn. Won't future generations have the ability and responsibility to organize their societies and industries and whatnot in whatever way that will makes sense for the resources they have at that time?

Any argument for environmentalism must concentrate on the improvements that will be felt here and now by us or people are just going to blow it off (as they have been to this point).

My Daughter Mellisa learned how to drive from her Uncle, who owns a fleet of 18-wheelers.
Truck drivers have a different view of cars.
When you drive Long-Haul, you are bound to see dozens of smashed-up, burnt out little cars along the side of the Interstate.
The car that passed you three hours ago going 90+MPH, never made it to the Texas state line. The driver who gave you the finger is lying on his back under a white sheet.

Truck drivers don't believe in gasoline (petrol). Trucks burn diesel, which does not explode on impact.

On the whole, truck drivers are more likely to have a two-wheeler as their second form of transportation.

Mellisa's Fiberglass Ladies Bicycle fairing is based on the aerodynamics of the Kenworth diesel truck.

I didn't say that. Just curious. :)

Now just what do you mean by that?

My Daughter Mellisa learned how to drive from her Uncle, who owns a fleet of 18-wheelers.
Truck drivers have a different view of cars.
When you drive Long-Haul, you are bound to see dozens of smashed-up, burnt out little cars along the side of the Interstate.
The car that passed you three hours ago going 90+MPH, never made it to the Texas state line. The driver who gave you the finger is lying on his back under a white sheet.

Truck drivers don't believe in gasoline (petrol). Trucks burn diesel, which does not explode on impact.

On the whole, truck drivers are more likely to have a two-wheeler as their second form of transportation.

Mellisa's Fiberglass Ladies Bicycle fairing is based on the aerodynamics of the Kenworth diesel truck.

Well,during the winter storms in northern Ohio I usually drive by dozens of cracked up tractor trailers off I-90.Crazy Cowboys out there.

By the way Hotbike,
you are the god and cutting edge of modern bike design.
Anything new in the design dept. for the "09" season.

I've always wondered by what mechanism future generations can lay claim to current resources? Do we really have a responsibility to not use the last of something? I find it an odd idea because I've never once felt at a disadvantage because of the things previous generations had "used up" before it was my turn. Won't future generations have the ability and responsibility to organize their societies and industries and whatnot in whatever way that will makes sense for the resources they have at that time?

Any argument for environmentalism must concentrate on the improvements that will be felt here and now by us or people are just going to blow it off (as they have been to this point).

It is tempting to think we can do whatever we want, and our descendants will be OK with it. It's also nice to imagine that future generations will easily adapt to whatever conditions we leave to them. Of course, we actually know that our daily decisions to drive SUVs for a short distance are likely to have important (life-or-death) consequences for the next few generations, whether we want to believe this or not.

The sacrifices aren't really that great. It won't kill anybody to walk a mile, or ride a bike five miles. We just need to start working together on the solutions.

By the way Hotbike,
you are the god and cutting edge of modern bike design.
Anything new in the design dept. for the "09" season.

I did a double take when I saw the picture in this article:

http://www.jacksonville.com/business/2008-12-20/going_electric_on_a_bicycle

I have some pictures I painted in watercolor, which show what the Type 9 would look like with fenderskirts and hard panniers.

I am currently living in an apartment, and I don't have the space to build bikes like I once did.

All I have to do though, is keep repeating that the bikes Mellisa designed are over 17 years old, so the patent rights have expired. Then we will see more knock-offs, like the one in the link.

Just out of curiosity, how many of you folks that think cars are evil and should never be used have kids?

I think your choice of words is a lot more inflammatory than necessary. A person who has decided that owning cars is not a good choice for their family is not an "anti-car nut." Is it actually nutty to choose to not own a car? You're like Fox News, attempting to marginalize a whole set of people as lunatics simply because you don't share their lifestyle or point of view.

But, for the record, I know only two families with children who do not own cars. Both families live in Seattle, in close proximity to schools, shops, restaurants, etc., and can be considered upper middle class. Their children, who are middle school age or older, sort of resent their parents for not having cars, but I've noticed that they're more resourceful than their friends who have parents who drive them everywhere. I know several other families with children who can be considered "car lite." They have a car, but do not use it every day, and make an effort to make local trips (<2 miles) by using bikes, the bus, or by walking. None of these families think cars are evil, nor are they even remotely odd; they just decided they wanted to save money, not be stuck in traffic, and do the right thing environmentally.

The sacrifices aren't really that great. It won't kill anybody to walk a mile, or ride a bike five miles. We just need to start working together on the solutions.

I happen to find many of the solutions are things that benefit me now and I enjoy them. I'm just skeptical of the idea that beings that don't yet exist (and may never exist, for any number of reasons) somehow deserve my consideration and that I must alter my behavior for their benefit.

I think being car free in a city wouldnt be bad at all with or with out kids. In the country where I live I think it would be kinda hard. 5 miles to the grocery store, and that is about as close as anything is for me.

I personally love cars. I drive a small car (MINI Cooper), not because its fuel efficient, but because it is quick, and fun. I hate SUVs and soccer moms, because they do not focus on any task they are doing, and couldnt care less about most others.

I do find it annoying that people say cars are "evil". Just like guns, its not the device, its the person controlling the device. We just need to teach people to drive better. People in Finland must be able to power slide a car to get a drivers license. Who here can do that. probably none, but it being able to do so gives the person great car control and makes daily driving much more safe.

I happen to find many of the solutions are things that benefit me now and I enjoy them. I'm just skeptical of the idea that beings that don't yet exist (and may never exist, for any number of reasons) somehow deserve my consideration and that I must alter my behavior for their benefit.

You're probably overthinking it a little bit. It's not a calculus problem.

I happen to find many of the solutions are things that benefit me now and I enjoy them. I'm just skeptical of the idea that beings that don't yet exist (and may never exist, for any number of reasons) somehow deserve my consideration and that I must alter my behavior for their benefit.

If that works for you go for it.

I don't particularly see it as my responsibility nor would I waste too much energy trying to changing your mind. For me it's pretty basic and straightforward. If I go camping I leave my campsite as I found it or better. If I use a friends place for the weekend I restock anything I used and don't run their propane down to nothing. I see my time on the planet in pretty much the same way. The planet doesn't belong to me exclusively it's a place I share not only with living things that live on it today but will be living on it long after I'm gone.

If that works for you go for it.

I don't particularly see it as my responsibility nor would I waste too much energy trying to changing your mind. For me it's pretty basic and straightforward. If I go camping I leave my campsite as I found it or better. If I use a friends place for the weekend I restock anything I used and don't run their propane down to nothing. I see my time on the planet in pretty much the same way. The planet doesn't belong to me exclusively it's a place I share not only with living things that live on it today but will be living on it long after I'm gone.

Good one, buzz. :) We're guests and sharers, and it makes us happy to act graciously.

I work on race cars to pay the rent here, CZ, so my ranting about cars is
only confined to related threads on various bike forums ...
It would fall on deaf ears(literally and figuratively) here in the place
where your car determines your evolutionary rating or hierarchy on the Caste' system. :lol:

Race cars within the track at Daytona. Cool, if that's you're thing.. Race cars on the AIA, terrorizing non-racers...... Not so cool

One day I go to pick up my kids from school and my son's class mate asks "Where's your car?" and my son responds "My dad is a human car." and a handle was born.

Here's me taking my daughter to ride on the local trail:
http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v1646/199/49/513493075/n513493075_1127771_278.jpg

If that works for you go for it.

I don't particularly see it as my responsibility nor would I waste too much energy trying to changing your mind. For me it's pretty basic and straightforward. If I go camping I leave my campsite as I found it or better. If I use a friends place for the weekend I restock anything I used and don't run their propane down to nothing. I see my time on the planet in pretty much the same way. The planet doesn't belong to me exclusively it's a place I share not only with living things that live on it today but will be living on it long after I'm gone.

Great stuff Buzzman !! When we fought irresponsible development in PA, we heard an Amish
gentleman speak, which is rare 'cuz they dont want to get involved in 'our' affairs, but he gave a very
poignant speech about us just having use of the land, we have no right to destroy it for personal gain.
Its our responsibility to give it back the same way we got it for later generations....its the right thing to do.


Race cars within the track at Daytona. Cool, if that's you're thing.. Race cars on the AIA, terrorizing non-racers...... Not so cool

LeMans. Really. The cars get shipped to germany to take part in european long distance events.
Real race cars. :thumb: Not my 'thing' though.....just pays rent. Am I a hypocrite ?
http://www.planetlemans.com/wp-content/themes/tma/images/uploads/2008/04/470_gravity_mosler_belcar.jpg

LeMans. Really. The cars get shipped to germany to take part in european long distance events.
Real race cars. :thumb: Not my 'thing' though.....just pays rent. Am I a hypocrite ?


Personally I don't think you're a hypocrite. None of us is able to change a big industry like car racing. But we can each change our own personal habits, and that you have done.

Truck drivers don't believe in gasoline (petrol). Trucks burn diesel, which does not explode on impact.
And neither does gasoline, and hence this is why truck drivers are not chemists. Gasoline requires a nice air to fuel mixture, and while is more explosive, it isn't like diesel is some safe material either.

It mainly comes down to professional driving.

The OP is obviously a troll. He can get back in his SUV and drive to the next bike event, and make sure to drop his kids off at the 10 activities a week they do.

2/10 troll job, I would have named it "How many of you 'anti-car' nuts are *******? Oh yeah all of you."

You troll nubs.

I have a step daughter and we are car light in an area that is not exactly bike friendly. We are buying a tandem so she can ride as stoker when shes with us and we can be even more car lite. Also, she goes to a school where she only gets 45 minutes 2X/week of PE. ABSURD. We had 1hr X 5 days when I was in 4th grade. She thinks it's the coolest thing to go to the store/Starbucks/office/you-name-it on the bike.