Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - Electrolytes and nutrition on long rides

I am looking for a basic understanding of what electrolyte and nutrients are needed, and how much, as you roll past the century mark and beyond. I think you need: sodium, potassium, calcium, and magnesium (other?).

What is the simple and effective way to get the right amounts of these (and whatever else is needed), as you are riding, say 600k? Can you simply pop a few pills? The potassium supplements I have found say 3% of rda. So, do I need to pop 50 of those suckers, or what? I should note that I can not take simple sugar, so regular Gatorade is out for me, for example.

On to general nutrition... Should a person take other supplements before/during/after long rides? Do you need to load up on pasta the night before, etc? When riding centuries, I have been fine with solid food, without increasing my daily calorie intake: peanut butter on wheat, granola, almonds, etc. Will I need to take in more calories, or special foods, to go double century, or more without fading? thanks.

you need to actually eat a meal once in a while. them thar TDF racers don't do a stage without chowing down at some point. depending on how fit u r, eat a sammich/clif bar/banana every 70 miles, drink 40-60 g carb per hour otherwise.


it all depends. if you can do it on liquid then do it on liquid. but eating solids is what
you need to do on loooooooong rides


yes load up on pasta the night before.




you will get a thousand different answers.


---->the real deal, is go for some long rides and figure it out on your own.
bring cash and plan your route near stores where u can haz some grub in an
emergency. do a 250 mile ride in one day that will really tell u something

Funny side note: I was searching the net, and found this FAIL:

RE: Sugar Free Electrolyte Sports Drink Recipe

Post By Dabhand (Guest Post) (08/05/2008) http://www.thriftyfun.com/images/1x1.gif
* 2 quarts water
* 2 tablespoons sugar:trainwreck:
* 1 teaspoon baking soda
* 1/2 teaspoon salt substitute (made with potassium chloride)
* 1/2 teaspoon salt
* 1 package Kool-Aid or other flavoring (optional) OR
* 2 teaspoons vanilla (or other) extract

Preparation:
Mix all ingredients together and refrigerate. Use the mix within 4 days.

I'm a Bars & Gels guy, personally. Starting about 60 - 90 minutes into a long ride, I'll switch from plain water to my nutrition combo:

- 1/2 to 3/4 Clif Bar per hour
- 1 Accel Gel per hour
- 1 or 2 Endurolyte capsules per hour, depending on how much I'm sweating.
- Keep 1 bottle with Accelerade, 1 bottle with water, alternate drinks.

It works out to roughly 250 - 300 cal/hr.

I'm still relatively new to rides longer than a century, but so far my per-hour calorie requirements seem to increase as rides get longer. For example, I seem to do just fine with ~2 bananas or clif bars for a 50-60 mile ride (maybe more if I go hard). However, I've found I need more than twice that for a century, especially if there are hills involved. I nearly bonked on a hilly (self-supported) century before I stopped and bought a couple of extra candy bars to finish the ride.

Is this phenomenon normal? Or does it subside with training? How about for longer distances -- 120 miles and beyond?

Boy, this is a can 'o worms ... though there's not many calories in a nematode.

What you eat will depend entirely on your metabolism and what your stomach can handle on the long brevets. Only experience will dictate what that is ... or if anything will sit well with you.

I've found that changes according to season, temperature and the rest of one's fitness.

I used to stay right away from junk food, but have found the last couple of seasons that sometimes a bag of chips and a Coke are just what the doctor ordered -- salt, caffeine and sugar -- mmmmmmm!:thumb:

Done.

Also, beware hyponatremia (http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/hydrationandfluid/a/Hyponatremia.htm).

lots of information here. (http://www.google.com/search?q=site:www.ultracycling.com+nutrition&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGGL,GGGL:2006-40,GGGL:en)

I'm a Bars & Gels guy, personally. Starting about 60 - 90 minutes into a long ride, I'll switch from plain water to my nutrition combo:

- 1/2 to 3/4 Clif Bar per hour
- 1 Accel Gel per hour
- 1 or 2 Endurolyte capsules per hour, depending on how much I'm sweating.
- Keep 1 bottle with Accelerade, 1 bottle with water, alternate drinks.

It works out to roughly 250 - 300 cal/hr.

I've seen the 200-300 calories/hour repeated from several sources (not 600 calories every 2 hrs., etc, but eating a bit every hour). It sounds like a good plan. Am I reading right, that the Endurolyte capsules contain no sugar, and provide all needed electrolytes? This sounds like the way to go. thanks


lots of information here. (http://www.google.com/search?q=site:www.ultracycling.com+nutrition&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGGL,GGGL:2006-40,GGGL:en)


Lots of good info there. One thing that surprised me: I might train and ride better by eating MORE carbs, and less protein. I will have to do some work in this area, as my weight loss and control of blood sugar problems came from an Atkins-ish diet. I think with all the riding I am doing now, I could squeeze in more complex carbs, pasta, etc. Thanks for the link; I'll have to read it all.

Salted almonds are the perfect food for long distance cyclists. They've got sodium, potassium, calcium, and heaps of other vitamins and minerals. Not only that, but they provide protein, good fats, and carbs. And you can pick them up in convenience stores for about $1 for a small packet.

Dried apricots are one of the highest sources of potassium ... higher than bananas and potatoes. They've also got a lot of vitamins and a few other minerals as well, and they are a good source of carbs.

Between the two, you're pretty much set.

However, if you'd like some variety, try these foods as well:
-- 100% pure orange juice (potassium & carbs)
-- beef jerky (sodium, possibly potassium, & protein)
-- potato chips (sodium, potassium, fat & carbs)
-- bananas (potassium & carbs)
-- various granola and cereal bars have some sodium, potassium, and other vitamins and minerals as well as being a tasty source of carbs ... check the labels next time you're in a grocery store

And there's nothing like a chicken croissant sandwich with a pickle on the side to hit the spot in the middle of a ride!! :D

Salted almonds...beef jerky...potato chips...bananas...granola

I could not help but notice all the items from your list that I was already chomping on my long rides. They just "felt" like the right things. I guess my body was sending the right signals for what it needed. I can't do the O.J., but the rest sounds good.

I could not help but notice all the items from your list that I was already chomping on my long rides. They just "felt" like the right things. I guess my body was sending the right signals for what it needed. I can't do the O.J., but the rest sounds good.

Yes, your body will send signals for what it needs ...it's up to you to listen to those cravings. When I need protein, I crave chicken, although any protein will satisfy the craving. When I need salt, I'll usually crave potato chips.


But note that if you crave something like a really spicy burrito, you may just be after fat, protein, and salt. Your body might just be trying to convey that message and not the message that you should eat something really spicy. A chicken sandwich might be a better choice because it may sit better 20 km down the road.

There's a ton of info over at http://www.hammernutrition.com. Good reading even if you don't buy their products.

I use a lot of their theory, and several of their products (with success).

Yes, your body will send signals for what it needs ...it's up to you to listen to those cravings. When I need protein, I crave chicken, although any protein will satisfy the craving. When I need salt, I'll usually crave potato chips.



I usually make sure I have some food (fig rolls) and energy drink planned out, but once I went a lot further than planned with no food. After about 60 miles, I just had to stop and get a big family sized bag of smokey bacon crisps. It got me home 45 miles later.

That was just odd because whenever I planned food I take sweet stuff. Also I have never liked bacon flavoured crisps because they are too salty for my taste.

I've seen the 200-300 calories/hour repeated from several sources (not 600 calories every 2 hrs., etc, but eating a bit every hour). It sounds like a good plan. Am I reading right, that the Endurolyte capsules contain no sugar, and provide all needed electrolytes? This sounds like the way to go. thanks




Lots of good info there. One thing that surprised me: I might train and ride better by eating MORE carbs, and less protein. I will have to do some work in this area, as my weight loss and control of blood sugar problems came from an Atkins-ish diet. I think with all the riding I am doing now, I could squeeze in more complex carbs, pasta, etc. Thanks for the link; I'll have to read it all.

Yes, it is a bit weird. The diet that you want to avoid when you aren't riding is pretty close to what you want when you are riding.

For electrolytes, the answer is "it depends". Your biggest need for electrolyte replacement when you are riding is salt, and endurolytes doesn't have much in it. Depending on how hot it is, how long the ride is, and your personal physiology, endurolytes may not be enough. They aren't enough for me.

You can lose up to a gram of sodium per liter of sweat, and, in my experience, once you get above the 4-6 hour mark it becomes important. For me, at least.

You can get sodium from your diet (salted snacks, beef jerky), or from supplements. I use one named Succeed E!caps, which have a ton more salt than endurolytes, and they work well for me.

Salt has gotten a bad rap. Some people (perhaps 10-25% of the population) are sodium-sensitive, and need to limit their salt to keep their blood pressure under control. If you're in that group, I suggest talking with your doctor and doing more research.

If you aren't in that group, reasonable supplementation of salt isn't a problem as long as you have sufficient water.

I wrote this about a year ago...

http://riderx.info/blogs/riderx/archive/2007/08/17/the-importance-of-staying-salty.aspx

I like these dried plums, which come in cherry, orange, lemon flavor:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pSBSnYk-L._SL500_AA280_PIbundle-12,TopRight,0,0_AA280_SH20_.jpg

Also I like to use Trader Joes or another good quality of Trail Mix, and then add in about equal amounts of roasted salted almonds, so I basically get Trail Mix heavy on the almonds.

That and a couple of bars of one kind or another and I'm set for a century. I take along a couple of GU's but they're for emergency bonks only.

I like these dried plums, which come in cherry, orange, lemon flavor:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pSBSnYk-L._SL500_AA280_PIbundle-12,TopRight,0,0_AA280_SH20_.jpg


Prunes + marathon cycling = :cry:

Prunes + marathon cycling = :cry:

seeing the prunes I wondered how long before the tone gets lowered:lol:

I am looking for a basic understanding of what electrolyte and nutrients are needed, and how much, as you roll past the century mark and beyond. I think you need: sodium, potassium, calcium, and magnesium (other?).Well a basic understanding of electrolytes and nutirents, {or nutrition in genreal** would mean that anyone answering your post needs to qualify the context of your question with respect to your own riding style or and or riding pace as well as your age, gender and the environmental conditions you are experiencing.

Basic adivce might include things like:

Learn to determine and maintain your current hydration status. (weight)
Learn to determine and maintain caloric expenditure and intake.
Learn to estimate the sodium and potassium content of popular foods you enjoy.
Learn to determine how much these factors change when you change your cycling pace or cycling environment. (temp)

How's that for a basic understanding of your questions?

I usually make sure I have some food (fig rolls) and energy drink planned out, but once I went a lot further than planned with no food. After about 60 miles, I just had to stop and get a big family sized bag of smokey bacon crisps. It got me home 45 miles later.

That was just odd because whenever I planned food I take sweet stuff. Also I have never liked bacon flavoured crisps because they are too salty for my taste.

On my really long rides, I like sweet stuff for about the first 200 kms, but after that I usually crave salty food and lose most of my desire for sweet stuff.

Your body probably needed the salt in those smokey bacon crisps. I've been known to cycle with a bag of cheezies in my bento bag. :D

seeing the prunes I wondered how long before the tone gets lowered:lol:

I knew someone would go there...


Well a basic understanding of electrolytes and nutirents, {or nutrition in genreal** would mean that anyone answering your post needs to qualify the context of your question with respect to your own riding style or and or riding pace as well as your age, gender and the environmental conditions you are experiencing.

Basic adivce might include things like:

Learn to determine and maintain your current hydration status. (weight)
Learn to determine and maintain caloric expenditure and intake.
Learn to estimate the sodium and potassium content of popular foods you enjoy.
Learn to determine how much these factors change when you change your cycling pace or cycling environment. (temp)

How's that for a basic understanding of your questions?

Male, 215, 6'5", low 40's, Florida, 150-200 miles/week, 15-20 mph: if all that leads to a different answer, there it is. The goal is to complete the SR series. I can muck my way through a century alright, but I sense that these issues become more important at 300 miles, unsupported, vs. 100 with pitstops.

I'm just looking for broad rules, or links to begin learning. The thread already dished out a lot of what I was seeking. The Endurolytes were a great find. The 200-300 calorie rule, carb loading, links--all good. Of course, I'll need to up the doses to wookie size, and increase the water and electrolytes when it's hot and humid down here. I suppose my questions were broad, because I want to consider all the options, and see what everyone else is doing (even if it's prunes):rolleyes:.

seeing the prunes I wondered how long before the tone gets lowered:lol:

I foresee much more getting "lowered.":roflmao2:

I am a prune fenatic, but not on long rides of any sorts. I usually have some with breakfast. But if I eat prunes on a long ride they just give me the worst stomach problems.

I've been OK with the prunes so far :) Really they're no worse than raisins, and they're just enough sugar and carbs (and not too much fiber :) )

The trouble with dehydrated or semi-dehydrated foods like prunes is that they need additional fluids to aid digestion. I would prefer fresh plums or grapes.

I suspect the reason why these foods create digestive upsets for many people is that their fluid intake is going directly into their bloodstream to service the losses through sweating, rather than aiding digestion.

I was once into dried bananas as an energy source, but I could not stomach them after a while because of their concentrated sweetness and digestive issues.

PBP is a good example of the sort of bland food that intelligent/aware organisers offer to their participants. Lots of pasta with mild sauces, for example. Machka and I also have had positive experiences on the two UMCA 24H races we've done, and chicken soup was one of my favourites, along with hot tea.

The more complex the carbohydrates or starches or sugars that you consume, the better off you will be in terms of extending the usefulness of that food. However, I think there is a definite role for proteins and fats -- one thing I learned from Kent Peterson was that chocolate milk could becomes a very important part of my long-distance regimen. And I've mentioned many times before, a good chicken pizza goes down really well anytime.

But Richard C and 127 do make very, very relevant points. You will only know what you can tolerate while on an event by experimenting. I know that I have done all sorts of events on liquid only food and real food. At the moment, I prefer the real food option.

My most recent fast century was done on a breakfast of cooked oats, then a nougat bar to the 100km mark, then a quick serving of instant noodles. I did run short of energy towards the end, but put up with it.

Potassium also is, I think, the forgotten electrolyte, I believe it has an important function in cell metabolism. The "substitute salt" may be a good option to use because it has a higher level of potassium chloride, but still retains sodium chloride.

I've learned, too, that many "energy" drink and bars become very "old" very quickly on a ride. I currently prefer the Australian version of Coca Cola's Powerade, which has maltodextrin rather than sucrose like its opposition. The taste is not sweet.

I also know that overconsumption of things like regular Coke and other fizzy drinks creates mouth and tongue ulcers. Coke is a great pick-me-up (when all things say it shouldn't be), but I do tend to restrict its use these days. There also is some thought that a diminution of the Vitamin B group in the body can lead to ulcers -- perhaps the ingedients in Coke lead to this decrease.

And finally, while not related directly to nutrition and electrolyes, go easy on the painkillers should you think you need them. Especially stuff like ibuprofen which, for me, can cause severe constipation -- a really unpleasant situation two thirds of the way through a 600. It's probably a function of the anti-inflammatory action of the drug. Take the recommended dosages and don't be tempted to pop another one "just to make sure".

One fine point - regarding nutrition and - really, long, long rides - is the fact that as you tire, both mentally and physically, the window for making good choices about eating and drinking gets smaller and smaller.

People who ride really hard, or ride really long, need to keep in mind that they may or may not be ready to choose the correct food or supplement as they become more tired and stressed.

However, the single biggest factor that reflects good judgment with respect to endurance nutrition is your ability to maintain body weight in the face outrageous riding conditions and mind-numbing fatigue.

Trying to play with "pills" and "special snacks" as a fix isn't a good approach to learning the behavior that will nourish a lifetime of long distance cycling, even if makes for nifty Internet posts.

"Magic bullets" results are as much luck as good sense. They never work for everyone, and never work all the time.

I am not doing ultra rides yet (still rebuilding my base), but I sweat rivers. I am one of those people who turns their clothes white with a good workout. Getting enough electrolytes into me through Cytomax, Gatorade, or other drinks has not been possible.

I get massive migraines from the resulting imbalance and it only goes away when I've gotten it fixed. Which is nearly impossible with such a 'wonderful' experience. (See the cycle here? -- no pun intended)

As I work towards my goal of completing centuries yet this spring, I am looking ahead for options. Suggestions?

Thanks

David

I am not doing ultra rides yet (still rebuilding my base), but I sweat rivers. I am one of those people who turns their clothes white with a good workout. Getting enough electrolytes into me through Cytomax, Gatorade, or other drinks has not been possible.This statement - at face value is ridiculous.

Please, if you had even a faint clue as to how these products work you would know that their mineral content is dependent on their solute, or strength.

As for the original thread's questions, mineral needs are individualistic, but also pace or effort and ride environment dependent as well. If you indeed sweat "buckets" - and assuming you replace your loss with fluids - you would be a candidate for salt supplementation. Extend this scenario beyond 4 or 5 hours, and you may indeed need high potassium foods, or god-forbid supplements.

But bear in mind, mineral needs are based upon the cycles of hydration and dehydration you pass through during an extended activity. If you ride at a rando pace, in pleasant whether, normal foods will keep up. if you want to ride the "508" and finish in the top ten - then you need to get technical.

But all this is just crap - if you don't know when you're on "full" or "empty." Any discussion of minerals or nutrition begins and ends with knowing your optimal body weight range -and maintaining it. The End.

I am not doing ultra rides yet (still rebuilding my base), but I sweat rivers. I am one of those people who turns their clothes white with a good workout. Getting enough electrolytes into me through Cytomax, Gatorade, or other drinks has not been possible.


Of course it hasn't been possible with sports drinks ... they don't have anywhere near enough electrolytes to satisfy the body's needs on anything more than a round-the-block recreational ride.

Do a google search on what foods are high in potassium, and sodium. Add the foods you like from that list into your diet while you cycle. If that is still not working for you, look into electrolyte supplements.

As for the original thread's questions, mineral needs are individualistic, but also pace or effort and ride environment dependent as well.

These are the parameters that new riders need to post before any realistic comment recommendations can be made.

Start with weight. Then do some testing to see how much fluids are being lost through sweating -- weigh, ride, weigh, subtract and calculate fluid loss. Compare that with total weight. Two litres of fluid loss from a 200kg rider is 1%; two litres from a 65kg rider is 3.3%. There are critical threshholds in terms of dehydration.

In my experience, personal and otherwise, people building base distance often ride at excessively high intensity for what they are trying to achieve in long-distance cycling. There is a belief that if there is no sweating, the workout isn't hard enough.

A heart rate monitor and some research on training zones might be helpful in moderating that intensity and reducing the need for excessive sweating for that base training. Things will change obviously, if there is a desire to get into interval training to improve speed and climbing. Then, there is an expectation that as fitness levels build, the intensity when excessive sweating starts should be somewhat higher.

Even clothing can be a deciding factor in how warm a person rides -- I know that in cool weather, I have worn excessive layers and sweated enough that after six to eight hours of ridng, I have been able to literally wring out the sweat from my top. The maxim that I think still applies is to start a ride feeling cooler than comfortable.

Essentially, though, before talking about upping doses of electrolytes, the other fundamental information would be handy to have.

Anectdotal evidence from yesterday's 200k-10 hours. I drank 2+1/2 gallons of tea and water, which was all I could handle, but probably not enough. I ate almonds, potato chips, beef jerky, bananas, along with a few small bits of peanut butter or turkey on wheat. I took a supplement called Eleet, which seemed like a different version of Endurolyte--only one at my LBS.

The big effect I noticed was no leg cramps during or after the ride, and the day-after headache was greatly reduced in intensity, almost eliminated. I think the approach was a success. Perhaps taking in more liquid in the days leading up to the ride would be a smart addition to the plan. I would not rule out other changes; I could always learn a better way. Thanks again for all the hints.

I started using Gookinaid Electrolyte Replacement for mountaineering and cycling over 30 years ago. I still order it regularly. It's had a recent name change, it's now called Vitalyte, but from the data it seems to be the same formula. This stuff works, and fast. For long rides I start off with one bottle mixed, and I carry a couple of baggies with powder measured for a water bottle. One thing I really like is that it has almost no sweetener added, so it goes down fast and isn't sticky on your fingers.
http://www.vitalyte.com/

It's very reasonable price, I buy two or three kilo size cans and they last a whole year.

great source, http://www.hammernutrition.com/za/HNT?PAGE=ENDURANCE_LIBRARY

The best nutrition that I have used is Perpetuem. It has 2g of fat, 54g carbohydrate, 6g protein per serving in addition to electrolytes. It is a powder that is mixed with water. Most powders and sports drinks are to sweet for me. The orange-vanilla perpetuem is not real sweet, has a rather bland taste (but not a bad taste.) It's a hammer nutrition product. I did a one-day 200+ mile ride and ate very little in addition to the perpetuem. I had a few small potatoes with butter and salt at a rest stop at a little beyond the halfway mark. I carried some beef jerky with me for additional protein and salt. I also supplemented my electrolyte intake with pills called "sport legs" that I would take every 2-3 hours. I pretty much drank a bottle of perpetuem every 60-90 minutes.

On prior distance rides, I ate some food that included nutrition bars, bagels, PBJ sandwiches, fresh fruit (grapes, watermelon, bananas) and drank some sports drinks. These things tasted pretty good, but I really paid dearly with upset stomach and I don't believe that I got the required electrolytes and nutrition to keep my legs from cramping.

Until the perpetuem/sport legs diet quits working, I'll stick with it.

I am not doing ultra rides yet (still rebuilding my base), but I sweat rivers. I am one of those people who turns their clothes white with a good workout. Getting enough electrolytes into me through Cytomax, Gatorade, or other drinks has not been possible.

I get massive migraines from the resulting imbalance and it only goes away when I've gotten it fixed. Which is nearly impossible with such a 'wonderful' experience. (See the cycle here? -- no pun intended)

As I work towards my goal of completing centuries yet this spring, I am looking ahead for options. Suggestions?

Thanks

David


You should start monitoring your salt intake and you will most likely need to start consuming a butt load of extra salt and salt your foods. Salt enhances fluid retention so you should start consuming more of it.

I am not doing ultra rides yet (still rebuilding my base), but I sweat rivers. I am one of those people who turns their clothes white with a good workout. Getting enough electrolytes into me through Cytomax, Gatorade, or other drinks has not been possible.


Sports drinks don't have enough electrolytes for many endurance athletes. You will need to supplement. I find that for warm or hot weather rides over 4 hours I need extra electrolytes. Depending on the heat and length I may be ok with some Endurolytes, or if it's really hot, salt tablets. You will have to experiment to find out what you need.

http://www.ultracycling.com/nutrition/electrolytes.html

I am not doing ultra rides yet (still rebuilding my base), but I sweat rivers. I am one of those people who turns their clothes white with a good workout. Getting enough electrolytes into me through Cytomax, Gatorade, or other drinks has not been possible.

I get massive migraines from the resulting imbalance and it only goes away when I've gotten it fixed. Which is nearly impossible with such a 'wonderful' experience. (See the cycle here? -- no pun intended)

As I work towards my goal of completing centuries yet this spring, I am looking ahead for options. Suggestions?

David

David,

I had a thoroughtly horrible experience on a double century a few years ago, and started doing some research.

It turns out that most of the guidance that is given is designed for people that exercise for short periods of time, not for long (say, over 4 hours) of time. If you go and read the forums of the guys that do ultramarathon running, or ironman races, you will see that electrolyte supplementation is a pretty common thing to do. Why it isn't more commonly discussed in cycling is a mystery to me.

Here's something I wrote a while back that I think will be of interest to you.

http://riderx.info/blogs/riderx/archive/2007/08/17/the-importance-of-staying-salty.aspx

I read your guys forum a lot ! I luv to dream of a long trip but its not in my near future . I sweat like a pig even in winter . So bad I got all my electroltes way outa wack a few weeks ago . To much gym bike riding and in the sauna .. Anyway my main problem was potassium . Saw the doc got a supplement for a week and then it was bannanas and prunes and rasins . seems fine now .It was so bad for about a 2 days my heart was beating outa wack so be careful guys .

But Iam diabetic losing weight and this spring when I get back to doing my 20 miles a day and more Iam really trying to figure a way to keep my system going and lose weight .

Eric, great information. I have been researching this since before I posted and found the Succeed! caps. I have experimented and so far I've discovered 2 per hour are just about correct.

I do understand intensity and duration have a role in the need. And yes, Richard, I understand concentration and Molarity (not solute, which is defined as the substance dissolved in the solvent).

Measuring the amount of electrolyte lost through sweating is something I have not been able to figure out how to do easily. Through urination, not a problem. Sweating leaves everything coated in salt and other minerals -- clothes, hair, even parts of the bike where the sweat has dripped and dried. And measuring effort is subjective without numbers. I don't have a power meter or even a HRM (latter for now).

So, my current working solution has me drinking at least 2 24oz water bottles per hour, plus 2 of the supplement tablets. This will probably be changed when it get hot.

Thanks everyone.

David

Eric, great information. I have been researching this since before I posted and found the Succeed! caps. I have experimented and so far I've discovered 2 per hour are just about correct.

David

Two per hour works fairly well for me, and I also try to eat a little extra salt during the week.

As for the heat, if you train in the heat your sweat will get less salty - you will still need the fluid but you will need less salt.

I'm just looking for broad rules, or links to begin learning. The thread already dished out a lot of what I was seeking. The Endurolytes were a great find. The 200-300 calorie rule, carb loading, links--all good. Of course, I'll need to up the doses to wookie size, and increase the water and electrolytes when it's hot and humid down here. I suppose my questions were broad, because I want to consider all the options, and see what everyone else is doing (even if it's prunes):rolleyes:.

I recommend against the endurolytes. Hammer's approach is to provide replacement for a whole range of electrolytes, but a) the body has decent stores of most electrolytes except salt and b) salt is consumed at a far higher rate than any of the others. You'll notice that endurolytes have a limit of 6 tablets per hour - that's because you may get too much of the other electrolytes if you go higher.

The other problem with endurolytes is their cost. You're paying about the same amount per capsule compared to the other (primarily salt) supplements, but you only have perhaps 15% of the sodium.

I forgot to reference the ultracycling website - there is lot of great information there:

http://www.ultracycling.com/nutrition/electrolytes.html