Touring - Holy Grail of water proof, breathable everything

The Holy Grail is coming soon, or so I hope. Look for it in the next few years.

http://www.p2ilabs.com/

It's a nano-coating that makes any material / object highly water resistant, in most cases waterproof. It's a plasma gas process that is applied to the final product, not the raw base materials. It was developed for the British Military and now has a commercial division. Also works on electronics like phones, radios, cameras etc. Think of the applications for the touring cyclist.

- Rain gear that is truly breathable. Waterproof Cool Max, or better yet a thin mesh fabric.
- Ultralight single wall tents made just of the No-see-um fabric.
- Any electronics right on the handlebars with no fear of rain.

They are a privately owned company, so no opportunities to invest. (I already asked, I have no affiliation with them)

What else could you use it on?

The Holy Grail is coming soon, or so I hope.
Maybe, yes. Maybe, no.

There are a lot of hurdles to pass before getting a product that actually works in the real world and has sufficient durability.

Maybe, yes. Maybe, no.

There are a lot of hurdles to pass before getting a product that actually works in the real world and has sufficient durability.


First products are already out on the market. Must be pretty durable to go on hiking boots??

http://www.hi-tec.com/us/46266-product-v_lite_altitude_ultra_wpi-all.html

And for electronics

http://www.golden-shellback.com/

These are licensed versions from 2Pi labs

I already have a closest full of waterproof hiking boots! What I really need is a biking jacket and pants that fit the bill. Right now I'm using Gortex, which seems to work for several years, but let's face it, it's still a little bit like wearing a plastic bag.

Can I expect a jacket to be forthcoming?

They promised the same thing about gore-tex years ago.

First products are already out on the market. Must be pretty durable to go on hiking boots??

http://www.hi-tec.com/us/46266-product-v_lite_altitude_ultra_wpi-all.html

But likely not "truely" breathable (see below). (It's also not clear that it's any better than the alternatives.)


- Rain gear that is truly breathable.

==========

Goretex fabrics (for instance) require a water repellant coating on the outside. This wears away. You can reapply it but it doesn't work as good as the original application.

But likely not "truely" breathable (see below). (It's also not clear that it's any better than the alternatives.)



==========

Goretex fabrics (for instance) require a water repellant coating on the outside. This wears away. You can reapply it but it doesn't work as good as the original application.


You gotta read the website a little closer, it's not gortex and does not need recoating and is far more durable than gortex and is breathable. At least according to them. :D Here is the white paper from their site.

http://www.p2ilabs.com/images/stories/P2iTechnicalPapers/footwear%20and%20textile%20tech%20paper%206695-0808.pdf

You gotta read the website a little closer,
I don't "gotta" do anything.


it's not gortex and does not need recoating and is far more durable than gortex and is breathable.

I didn't say it was Goretex. I was just pointing out one common problem with "miracle" breathable/waterproof coatings. Note that boots typically are not as breathable as fabrics (leather isn't very breathable). It would be interesting to see how well it worked in a jacket.


At least according to them.
That could be a problem.

It will be interesting to see if it lives up to their promises and claims.

Dream on. :(

I'm a doubter, but I hope it's true. I love Gore-tex, but I know its limitations.

Leak-Tex never did it for me.
I'll take a wait-and-see approach.

Leak-Tex never did it for me.
I'll take a wait-and-see approach.
Yeah, for me it seemed like I was always just as wet as with plain old coated nylon, but colder.

Yeah, for me it seemed like I was always just as wet as with plain old coated nylon, but colder.


Well I sure hope the stuff works; but like gore-tex, I think it will be much ado about nothing. BREATHEABILITY is only one issue when it comes to getting clammy and sweaty during a climb or during a ride. The real issue is that your body is producing sweat far faster than it is capable of evaporating...PERIOD. You could be riding buckass naked and still get a nice layer of sweat all over yourself. Ask any runner who wears a negligee singlet.

The other point is that these breathabilitymaniacs forget is that sweat is ALOT more than water. Sure..water molecules can get thru..but there is alot of other gunk that doesn't. If want to get an idea of how non-watery sweat is, squeeze out your jersey into a 8 oz. glass and take a swig or two.

Finally, in a heavy rainfall, your raingear is convered with a thin layer/laminate of water on the outside, anyway. Guess what. This layer is not breathable.

I have yet to read a favorable review of goretex that by a group that hasn't received a trillion dollars in sponsorship money for some expedition to Katmanastan.

I ride with a yellow rain jacket similar to what your mom sent with ya to Kindergarten. Works fine, is reversible, doubles as a drop cloth, and costs 1/10th of goretex.


roughstuff

if it's a holy grail sounds unobtainable. So far my Showers Pass jacket is the closest thing to perfect I've seen for garbage cold wet weather and sweating. Better than goretex.


http://showerspass.com/cart/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=59&osCsid=49bfdc47e4c0e83fede1d5a58b93638a

Epic encapsulated fabrics are 'waterproof' enough for tent canopies and breathable enough for shell clothing.

i suspect this newfangled plasma coating will have application restrictions, vapor permeability limitations, and NOT be a holy grail to waterproof hawaiian shirts (my preferred style of riding shirt) but if it can waterproof my cellphone more power to them. boots can already be made waterproof.

+ infinity to the Showers Pass jacket. I think it is more breathable than regular uncoated nylon. I can't say enough about how great mine works, they should give them out to everyone like social security numbers.

note the site carefully- the technical articles describe it's breathability (not any worse than the original untreated highly breathable fabric, and WAY better than goretex) and it's resistance to abrasion (very high, better than any other coating tested). note however that the golden shellback folks say that repairs on treated electronics are done through abrasion. they likely mean something more heavy duty though...
granted these are studies done by someone selling a product, but the tests look legit (standardized, reproducible).

that waterproof hawaiian shirt might be close. this sort of technology has been advancing rapidly over the past decade.

I don't "gotta" do anything.




Somebody pee in your wheaties? :rolleyes:

Well I sure hope the stuff works; but like gore-tex, I think it will be much ado about nothing. BREATHEABILITY is only one issue when it comes to getting clammy and sweaty during a climb or during a ride. The real issue is that your body is producing sweat far faster than it is capable of evaporating...PERIOD. You could be riding buckass naked and still get a nice layer of sweat all over yourself. Ask any runner who wears a negligee singlet.

The other point is that these breathabilitymaniacs forget is that sweat is ALOT more than water. Sure..water molecules can get thru..but there is alot of other gunk that doesn't. If want to get an idea of how non-watery sweat is, squeeze out your jersey into a 8 oz. glass and take a swig or two.

Finally, in a heavy rainfall, your raingear is convered with a thin layer/laminate of water on the outside, anyway. Guess what. This layer is not breathable.

I have yet to read a favorable review of goretex that by a group that hasn't received a trillion dollars in sponsorship money for some expedition to Katmanastan.

I ride with a yellow rain jacket similar to what your mom sent with ya to Kindergarten. Works fine, is reversible, doubles as a drop cloth, and costs 1/10th of goretex.


roughstuff

Absolutely spot-on.

The only time raingear - and very good raingear at that - has ever worked for me has been in a fishing boat, standing stock-still. Everything else, including GoreTex, is a sauna in minutes. The rate of moisture exuded by a working cyclist cannot be evap'd thru anything fast enough. It's just the way it is.

I put forth the belief that those of you who are saying that this or that is "great" or "is very comfortable" or whatever, are really girls - whom we all know, don't sweat - they glisten. So there! :mad:

Mark my words. Nano-technology is the new frontier in science and will change the way we live in the future. Using it in this manner is just one of many (including medical breakthroughs) on the horizon. Very interesting stuff!!

hey, jcm. yeah, none of us sweat when riding :rolleyes:

thats' why some of use are suggesting fabrics with more breathability than traditional waterproof fabrics. Wool most definetly evaps perspiration well.

Epic encapsulated nylons work very well IMO. Epic encapsulated tents are very dry to sleep in and don't clam out like traditional singlewall tents.

I'm not riding in a yellow rubberized rainslicker OR goretex if I can help it. Overdependence on a waterproof coat is a clammy compromise.

I'm not sure my cell phone needs to breathe.

Absolutely spot-on.

The only time raingear - and very good raingear at that - has ever worked for me has been in a fishing boat, standing stock-still....:


I have a girly-man story. I was in a fishing boat with a buddy who lent me some of his gore-tex stuff. Sure enough I stayed as dry as a cracker. When I stood up to stretch at the end of it all, damned if i didn't rock the boat and fall in!

I guess it is my destiny to be a wet hen. How i managed to learn how to bicycle, when I am so uncoordinated is beyond me. I had training wheels on for 3 summers.

roughstuff

I put forth the belief that those of you who are saying that this or that is "great" or "is very comfortable" or whatever, are really girls - whom we all know, don't sweat - they glisten. So there! :mad:

Ahem.

But women sweat. Rivers.

Carry on.

Wool rules. I would rather be wet and dry quickly than stay wet and clammy.

I have a girly-man story. I was in a fishing boat with a buddy who lent me some of his gore-tex stuff. Sure enough I stayed as dry as a cracker. When I stood up to stretch at the end of it all, damned if i didn't rock the boat and fall in!

I guess it is my destiny to be a wet hen. How i managed to learn how to bicycle, when I am so uncoordinated is beyond me. I had training wheels on for 3 summers.

roughstuff

I was threatened with being tossed if I didn't stop moving around so much. :D

Ahem.

But women sweat. Rivers.

Carry on.

...do not.

Wool rules. I would rather be wet and dry quickly than stay wet and clammy.


Exactly. The key is to stay warm when wet; not 'dry in the rain,' which is quite impossible.

From my touring experience, the worst possible weather condition is wind driven wet snow when you are climbing. I have literally come close to hypothermia or bring killed in these conditions several times.

Its the worst because the WET snow makes you wet and MELTING snow wicks up body heat with life threatening rapidity. On top of all that you are bundled up against the cold weather so you are piling up sweat faster than in a sauna. When you reach the top of the pass and begin your descent, body heat ceases, evaporation and wind chill soars, and within a few hundred vertical feet you are cold enough to be in serious trouble. This happened to me on Col de la Cayolle in the French Alps. There is a sign at the top of the pass and i almost stripped naked in the lee of the sign to put on dry clothing..what dry clothing had left, anyway...i had almost everything on on the way up.

Barring such extremes, the best idea is the old idea of layers. I start with a long sleeved turtleneck; a short sleeved t-shirt over it; a wool sweater on top if that; a water resistant windbreaker on top of that, and then finally my waterproof jacket. The two top jackets have an assortment of velcro, snaps and zippers so that I can vary the degree to which the wind can penetrate into them.

One clever thing to remember: don't get elastic around your wrists. SOMETIMES ya want the air to be able to run up your arm, over your shoulders and down your back. Other times you do not. So use velcro if you can find it our get it.

When I buy gear i don't look for 'brand names.' I look for features.


roughstuff

i think the idea of nano coatings is a great idea personally, i think encapsulated fabrics work on similar principle.

You'll always need a waterproof coat for touring as the last ditch shell but I've been comfortable touring in quite mixed riding conditions in microfiber encapsulated 'windbreaker' type shells over wool layers versus wearing a WB coat. its much more breathable.

I have a Montane event waterproof jacket, very lightweight, breathable etc but after years of wearing it I cannot seem to waterproof it anymore to a high standard...even though I do not wash it in any detergent stuff prior to waterproofing as suggested....any suggestions apart from buying a new one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzz_marketing

Bleh. What's the evap rate in 100%+ humidity for sweat? Zero. When it's raining, what's the humidity at?
Good luck on finding clothes that let sweat evap when it rains.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzz_marketing

Bleh. What's the evap rate in 100%+ humidity for sweat? Zero. When it's raining, what's the humidity at?
Good luck on finding clothes that let sweat evap when it rains.

Well...a point. Just because its raining doesn't mean the humidity is 100%. It is, by definition, 100% at the point where the condensation is taking place. But the raindrops can easily be falling thru remarkably dry air. The 'virga' people refer to out west occurs when rain falls thru such dry air it evaporates on route to the ground. Very dry air during showers when I lived in Arizona.

What I love ( :( ) is when the rain falls on a roadway which is still superheated from earlier sunshine, and so the wet roadway starts to steam.

roughstuff