Advocacy & Safety - The dumbest bike infastructure ever!

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/3327/7jdiagram15uy9.jpg





Yes the biggest bike box ever we have a special permit from the feds..
Yes you need to move from right to left the slowest lane change ever.
Yes it is a separate track which forces cyclist to go slower you can see part of it here http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_g8OThLDhHJI/SWG7U0P0mMI/AAAAAAAAABA/lYnJH3VQDW0/s1600-h/9-J-Diagram09.jpg.
You need to wait while traffic turns left.
There are special red lights activated in the frontage road/ cycle track portion (not the roadway) when a train comes so you don't cross the tracks However you just want to go straight and not cross the tracks. there is not even bike loops on this thing. And it was just built
The whole route is anti bike in so many ways we should be able to sue them.

Yes the bike boxes were just added after much complaining.
Amazing.

wow, you have bike lanes, and are complaining


take what you have and enjoy it. sheesh.


many have NOTHING

Can't you just use the regular lanes?

wow, you have bike lanes, and are complaining
take what you have and enjoy it. sheesh.
many have NOTHING

I'd take nothing over that any day, I'd take the lane and have no worries.

wow, you have to cross 5 lanes to go straight on the bike lane, now that took some planning.

The pattern I seem to see is that people designing these things think that cyclists don't mind stopping or wasting time.

wow, you have bike lanes, and are complaining


take what you have and enjoy it. sheesh.


many have NOTHING

Are you serious? Maybe you should try using this beloved infrastructure of yours? You see that lane way over on the left I have to wait for the green light to go red and after I walk my bike over to the left lane using a ped signal, then I plop my bike down in front of the motors they honk and yell at me. This is 2009 and it was just built the whole road was redone with out the bike box mind you.
ohh and by the way I didn't complain when the bike lane went straight on the right hand side previously.


Can't you just use the regular lanes?
Ohh it gets worse.
ARS 28-735 exempts motor vehicle drivers from the penalties when an injury occurs where there is a nearby bike lane.

And were not just talking about the law.

... And were not just talking about the law.

What does "not just talking about the law" mean?
What city is this in?
Why does the junction in the photo look nothing like the junction in the diagram?
ARS 28-735 sux.

Why does the junction in the photo look nothing like the junction in the diagram?

It looks like the picture is of the intersection of 7th and Jefferson, while the diagram is of the intersection of 9th and Jefferson.

If I'm interpreting the picture and diagram correctly, a cyclist proceeding east on Jefferson not only has to cross six lanes of traffic at 7th street to move from the far right to the far left in order to proceed straight, but the cyclist then has to cross the leftmost traffic lane again at 9th street, across the path of left-turning traffic.


wow, you have bike lanes, and are complaining

take what you have and enjoy it. sheesh.

I don't see how it is possible that any cyclist would enjoy this bike lane.

Yuck! I hope at least there is no right on red here.

Your error is in thinking that bike lanes are built for the benefit of cyclists. (You poor naive soul!)

Bike lanes are created for the convenience of motorists by getting cyclists out of their way. You thought separate lanes would mean acceptance on the public way, didn't you? You forgot how separate facilities worked out for the minority users in the south. Here you have a perfect example of a ghetto lane with the attendant discriminatory laws to keep you in your place.

Bicycle advocacy like this is trading freedom for a false sense of safety. :(

Please, what city is this in? I'm trying to find it on Google maps. Is it Tempe, Arizona?

This is what happens when everybody starts insisting on their own special deals. It eventually gets confusing and that leads to collisions because nobody understands what's what, or what they're supposed to do.

Keep it simple. Same roads, same rules, same rights.

Can't we all just get along?

Please, what city is this in? I'm trying to find it on Google maps. Is it Tempe, Arizona?
http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&q=7th+street+and+jefferson+and+Phoenix&ie=UTF8&split=0&ll=33.449777,-112.064753&spn=0.008898,0.014398&t=h&z=16&iwloc=addr
it is in Phoenix and it was just built so there is no google maps since it was just built. You can kinda see it in some spots, but it is still in construction on street view.

Sorry for the confusion
This is looking at 7th street and Jefferson Photo. Looking at the diagram are looking at 9th street and Jefferson. This is where the frontage road starts.

Here is the article dealing with this. From CAZbke.org
http://cazbike.blogspot.com/2009/01/bike-lanes-and-light-rail-7th-to-24th.html

you will notice there are some other diagrams. That deal with 24st where it ends or starts for Washington since these are both one ways. .
Sorry I didn't set this up properly.

What does "not just talking about the law" mean?
What city is this in?
Why does the junction in the photo look nothing like the junction in the diagram?
ARS 28-735 sux.

1. People will honk and yell at you too get in the bike lane. And second this is only two miles. There is another ten miles or so of really bad design.
2. Phoenix
3. Because the photo gets you ready for the diagram. 7th street and 9th street two blocks east
.

Yuck! I hope at least there is no right on red here.

No

It looks like the picture is of the intersection of 7th and Jefferson, while the diagram is of the intersection of 9th and Jefferson.

If I'm interpreting the picture and diagram correctly, a cyclist proceeding east on Jefferson not only has to cross six lanes of traffic at 7th street to move from the far right to the far left in order to proceed straight, but the cyclist then has to cross the leftmost traffic lane again at 9th street, across the path of left-turning traffic.



I don't see how it is possible that any cyclist would enjoy this bike lane.

This is not to bad since it is a frontage road and only side traffic will be going down this.
Yes you will have to do this.

We used to have a mandatory side path (bike lane) law here, but I'm sure glad it was revoked.

If this road were in my city, I'd ignore the path and ride it like I drive it.

This is not to bad since it is a frontage road and only side traffic will be going down this.

Does it hurt less when a cyclist gets hit by side traffic? I'm not sure I understand your point here.

Does it hurt less when a cyclist gets hit by side traffic? I'm not sure I understand your point here.

Well you can just remain left till you get into the Frontage road completely . Since you are left the driver should be able to see you. Hand signals work. Then you only need to worry about traffic behind you. Since this is separate from the rest of the road by light rail with only one entrance for cars.

I am just saying it is easier than it looks. No I don't like it but the left position makes it easier.

We used to have a mandatory side path (bike lane) law here, but I'm sure glad it was revoked.

If this road were in my city, I'd ignore the path and ride it like I drive it.

The only problem I have is I have no legal recourse if I am hit. Since you choose to drive like you want to.

People will honk and yell at you too get in the bike lane
.

Oooh! How awful!

The only problem I have is I have no legal recourse if I am hit. Since you choose to drive like you want to.

Well, you have no recourse to the civil penalties specifically imposed by that statutory provision. I would be very surprised if that provision barred you from recovering other damages.

And it is truly sad that bike lane lovers like 127.0.0.1 and bekologist will not even oppose this absurdly dangerous bike lane design.

The only problem I have is I have no legal recourse if I am hit. Since you choose to drive like you want to.

One reason I like to have the option of riding in the streets and am not required to use a bike/side path/lane/trail.

All motorists here are required to carry liability insurance. If I'm hit, I can take action and if I win, I can collect compensation.

If I'm hit the in the same way by someone who is not required to carry liability insurance and has no assets, if I take legal recourse and win, I may receive no compensation in spite of my win.

And it is truly sad that bike lane lovers like 127.0.0.1 and bekologist will not even oppose this absurdly dangerous bike lane design.
bekologist approves this bike lane design?

Yep, that's a pretty dumb design, no question about it. This fiasco was obviously dreamed up by somebody that not only does not understand bicycling, but is also inept at understanding traffic flow.


Bike lanes are created for the convenience of motorists by getting cyclists out of their way.

Bicycle advocacy like this is trading freedom for a false sense of safety.

Absolutely.

The bike lane goes toward oncoming traffic? WHAT?? Is this even legal?

The bike lane goes toward oncoming traffic? WHAT?? Is this even legal?

Look again, it's a one way road.

Yep, that's a pretty dumb design, no question about it. This fiasco was obviously dreamed up by somebody that not only does not understand bicycling, but is also inept at understanding traffic flow.



Absolutely.

Gotta agree with both you and Chipseal on this one... it is a design by idiots. But that is what happens when the car is deemed "king" and everything else is shunted aside.

Bicycle advocacy like this is trading freedom for a false sense of safety. :(

Dick Cheney invented bike lanes?

And it is truly sad that bike lane lovers like 127.0.0.1 and bekologist will not even oppose this absurdly dangerous bike lane design.


no,

it is truly sad you (wheel, others...) -have- bike lanes and still complain. it is not dangerous if you follow the friggin rules and watch what you are doing. a bike lane, any bike lane, no matter where it is located, doesn't magically make you safe from anything, so how is this intersection different ? you have to watch out for yourself at all times regardless.


there just isn't any way to make your sort of people happy, is there ?

the traffic engineers did the best they could with what they had. the real solution would be dig up the
entire block and redesign it for including bikes. Well, are you gonna pay for it ? thought so....and if it was
done, at the expense of millions, I bet you'd still find time to bit*h about it.


so quit your whining, you...you.....whiner

ol' Chopper Read says HTFU

Dick Cheney invented bike lanes?

:roflmao2:

Probably the best way to take care of this design without tearing up the street would be to put sharrows in the right hand straight through/turn lane... and forget that idiotic bike lane crossing idea.

That way the right lane is geared for merging and slower traffic... perfect for cycling. Cyclists can use the entire lane to both be more visible and to stay away from the far right where turns are going to take place. The next change would be to carve out RTOL from the far right side lane by using the space left by removing the BL and some of the sidewalk... that will take some concrete changes... The overall effect would be a wider intersection with increased visibility. The sidewalks won't be narrowed as they would simply shift further right.

But no doubt the designer of this fiasco is an old time traffic engineer working to get the best flow for cars at the expense of pedestrians and cyclists... and the foolish cross street bike lane is only going to muck up the flow even more. The BL in this case is a bad bandaide applied without thinking.

no,

it is truly sad you (wheel, others...) -have- bike lanes and still complain. it is not dangerous if you follow the friggin rules and watch what you are doing. a bike lane, any bike lane, no matter where it is located, doesn't magically make you safe from anything, so how is this intersection different ? you have to watch out for yourself at all times regardless.

Um wrong. It is perfectly legitimate to complain about BAD infrastructure. BAD infrastructure can and is more dangerous than no infrastructure. Did you look at the picture? This bike lane requires cyclists to:

1. Cross 5 lanes of traffic plus light rail tracks. This is highly inconvenient and potentially more dangerous than simply riding straight and taking the right lane.
2. Continue by riding to the far left of traffic. Something most drivers are not used to since 99% of the time a slower vehicle and bicycle is to the right. It is hard enough to avoid the right hook, but even fewer drivers are watching for the left hook.
3. Cross the intersection on the far left side. Again not where most drivers are trained and expected to see a cyclist.
4. Effectively you have to take the lane while crossing the intersection, again AT THE FAR LEFT, where drivers are not as used to seeing a cyclist.

This area would be much safer by simply ending the bike lane and having the cyclists take the far right lane. There is a second lane to allow other vehicles to pass.



there just isn't any way to make your sort of people happy, is there ?

Sure there is. Build GOOD infrastructure. Which at times means leave the area devoid of any bike lane, rather than some backwards whacky solution that breaks all normal conventions.


the traffic engineers did the best they could with what they had. the real solution would be dig up the
entire block and redesign it for including bikes. Well, are you gonna pay for it ? thought so....and if it was
done, at the expense of millions, I bet you'd still find time to bit*h about it.


No, the REAL solution would have been to simply end the bike lane and post these at the next block

http://www.web.net/~lukmar/full_use.jpg

it is truly sad you (wheel, others...) -have- bike lanes and still complain. it is not dangerous if you follow the friggin rules and watch what you are doing. a bike lane, any bike lane, no matter where it is located, doesn't magically make you safe from anything, so how is this intersection different ? you have to watch out for yourself at all times regardless.

How is this lane different? Well, for one thing, the 9th Street intersection forces the cyclist to cross a traffic lane, in the middle of an intersection, across the path of left-turning traffic. How can you possibly fail to see that that bike lane puts cyclists in a worse position than if there had been no bike lane at all?


the traffic engineers did the best they could with what they had. the real solution would be dig up the entire block and redesign it for including bikes. Well, are you gonna pay for it ? thought so....and if it was done, at the expense of millions, I bet you'd still find time to bit*h about it.

Did you miss the fact that these intersections were just recently constructed? That the entire block was in fact dug up and redesigned and that these intersections are the result? These intersections are so new that it doesn't even appear in its present form on Google maps. I cannot believe that these intersections represent the best efforts of any traffic engineer.

Too complicated.
The eastbound bike path is two way?

What I would do. Tear down that fence and clear that desert like piece of dirt. Merge the bike lane onto the sidewalk as it nears the intersection. People using the bike lane have to wait for the lights and go over 5 lanes just like now. They just wait for the lights to change and change sides. I would keep that possibility for inexperienced or slower cyclists who are afraid to manage that intersection. Others could use VC if they please. The problem this creates is that means there has to be a split from the the bike lane to the road somewhare which could cause right hooks among cyclists. Or just no bike lane here?

Anyway I am absolutely against forcing cyclists to use bikelanes in situations like these. They are way too often horrible designs. I see cyclists among cars and on others bike paths simultaneously. Different solutions for different people. A lot of the skilled riders on the road stay clear of cars one way or another. The only thing hindering things are black and white regulations and laws on paper in some places.

2. Continue by riding to the far left of traffic. Something most drivers are not used to since 99% of the time a slower vehicle and bicycle is to the right. It is hard enough to avoid the right hook, but even fewer drivers are watching for the left hook.

FWIW I don't agree with this a 100%. Riding Baltimore's one way streets I find the left far less intimidating then the right. Drivers seem to be more aware of where the left side of their car is then the right and they seem to notice you better as if you are in their face as it were. On the right side mirrors, handicap placards and other stuff in the car is more likely to put a cyclist in a blind spot before a turn.


No, the REAL solution would have been to simply end the bike lane and post these at the next block

http://www.web.net/~lukmar/full_use.jpg

:thumb:

no,

it is truly sad you (wheel, others...) -have- bike lanes and still complain. it is not dangerous if you follow the friggin rules and watch what you are doing. a bike lane, any bike lane, no matter where it is located, doesn't magically make you safe from anything, so how is this intersection different ? you have to watch out for yourself at all times regardless.


there just isn't any way to make your sort of people happy, is there ?

the traffic engineers did the best they could with what they had. the real solution would be dig up the
entire block and redesign it for including bikes. Well, are you gonna pay for it ? thought so....and if it was
done, at the expense of millions, I bet you'd still find time to bit*h about it.


so quit your whining, you...you.....whiner

ol' Chopper Read says HTFU

Are you serious? Maybe you should try using this beloved infrastructure of yours? You see that lane way over on the left I have to wait for the green light to go red and after I walk my bike over to the left lane using a ped signal, then I plop my bike down in front of the motors they honk and yell at me. This is 2009 and it was just built the whole road was redone with out the bike box mind you.
ohh and by the way I didn't complain when the bike lane went straight on the right hand side previously.


Ohh it gets worse.
ARS 28-735 exempts motor vehicle drivers from the penalties when an injury occurs where there is a nearby bike lane.

And were not just talking about the law.


As I said before ride down it.

the fix is easy and it involves less money and time they tried to spend on the problem already.


Rip the bicycle lane which starts at fifth street 7th street out
Put a bike route sign with arrow on the left side of the street something like use left straight lane.
Rip out bike lane from 7th street to 8th street.
Replace with sharrows on both sides of the street.
Upon coming to 24 st
Rip bike lane going to 24 st
Bike lane sign with arrow point to the special access road with sharrows to 24 st. Continue on the other side of road with bike lane. Easy.

The problem I have is the bike lane starts at 5 th street so a whole two blocks is crap to end up like that.
Plus by not remaining right and keeping to the left lane you avoid crossing the tracks.


But wait there is more and your going to love to rip on all l this crap.
http://acyclist2.googlepages.com/light_rail


I wouldn't mind to much but you have to remember before light rail it was a bike lane on the right and it didn't do any of these things listed on my web page. So they took really good infrastructure and made it really bad.

This is probably one of the most horrid thing I ever seen I lost the right of way going straight to cars going on the freeway Plus I can't even dismount my bike and walk in the bicycle lane cross walk. With a yield sign I am stuck waiting for traffic to clear. Sidwalk with cross walk is lower left. Then there is poles and trees and plants they can't even see you all the way over there. They are more worried about turning the corner and then flying up to the freeway. this is a right turn lane only.
http://acyclist2.googlepages.com/bike_spin.jpg/bike_spin-full;init:.jpg

A bicycle lane with out bicycle loops and the loops don't sense a cyclist.
WTF

http://acyclist2.googlepages.com/no_loops.jpg/no_loops-full;init:.jpg

here they feed you to the trolls
http://acyclist2.googlepages.com/202_underpass.jpg/202_underpass-full;init:.jpg

Why are they so eager to make the bike lane start at the corner why not father back so you can take the lane?

http://acyclist2.googlepages.com/bike_lane_in_pullout.jpg/bike_lane_in_pullout-full;init:.jpg

This goes from 9th street to 7 th washington street rip it out
Allow cars to merge left for a left turn and me to merge over to the right. Bike Lane ends and we are not telling you this till you get across the road and left in the left lane.

http://acyclist2.googlepages.com/bikelane_ends.jpg/bikelane_ends-full;init:.jpg

If we're confused motorists are really confused and I see why. Right two lanes turn right in case you want to merge right on your bicycle. This is more confusing than really bad. Speed limits are 25 mph which makes this great.
http://acyclist2.googlepages.com/confusing.jpg/confusing-full;init:.jpg

Ok I will stop ranting.


http://acyclist2.googlepages.com/ped_in_bike.jpg/ped_in_bike-full;init:.jpg