Classic and Vintage Bicycles: What's it Worth? Appraisals and Inquiries - Paramount full DA, valuable?

I'm new here but longtime cyclist. My first Schwinn was a Varsity when they were 10 speeds! I've always admired Paramounts and just picked one up this week. It's a Paramount, serial is 580DMW A92043. I've done some research and I think it is: a Paramount made in Waterford in January, 1992, size 58. I found a Schwinn 92 catalog and it looks similiar to my bike: Selle Italia saddle, full 7400 dura ace. Mine has 3TTT stem and bars in back. This thing is a beauty, virtually like new. It has a blue splatter paint job and the original white bar tape. I'm wondering if my info is correct and if anyone has an idea of the value. I am not a collector but more of a rider--I have an 06 Madone with Ksyrium SLs, Full Force and FSA carbon crankset that I love--but this Paramount is show quality and I'm intrigued. Thanks for any help from out there.

Sure....$400-500 on the street/retail market.

what did you pay?

Hi, thanks for the reply. I paid 600 figuring I could part out for about $1000 (I've done this with all the DA 7400 parts in the past). I was really expecting this would be more--I see Paramounts getting 400-1000 just for the frame/fork and this is in mint condition.

It may well be more. Paramounts vary. The higher ones have Campy, but I'd take the DA 7400 in a flicker. Good buy, I think, at $600, to ride. I don't think flipping it will net you a lot more.

I'll disagree with Robbie a little on this one.

If your buying it to keep $600 is on the very, very extreme high end of street/retail pricing.

I bought an '88 Paramount with full Dura-Ace and parted it out in the fall. Looking at my spreadsheet I was able to sell everything, excluding wheels, for ~$425. Figure another $100 or so for the wheelset and I'm looking at $525-ish in total revenue.

Surprisingly Dura-Ace 7400 doesnt bring alot of money. I actualy get more money for 600/Ultegra STI's than I do for Dura-Ace because the 600/Ultegras interchange with everything else in Shimanos line whereas the Dura-Ace only interchanges with Dura-Ace.

Dont get me wrong, I'd like to see you get as much as you can.

Not if it's mint. Check the listings on ebay. $200 alone for the brifters if in excellent shape:

http://completed.shop.ebay.com/items/__dura-ace-7400?LH_Complete=1&_trkparms=66%253A2%257C65%253A13%257C39%253A1&_dmd=1&_dmpt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&_fsct=&_in_kw=1&_ipg=50&_oexkw=&_okw=dura%20ace%207400&_sop=12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_udhi=&_udlo=&_pgn=2

miamijim, your frameset was a repaint, and it had some patina. Not sure if the OP's frameset is original paint. If so, I'm guessing it could sell for near $400. Maybe more if that paint scheme means something special to someone (not me!).

Not if it's mint. Check the listings on ebay. $200 alone for the brifters if in excellent shape:

http://completed.shop.ebay.com/items/__dura-ace-7400?LH_Complete=1&_trkparms=66%253A2%257C65%253A13%257C39%253A1&_dmd=1&_dmpt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&_fsct=&_in_kw=1&_ipg=50&_oexkw=&_okw=dura%20ace%207400&_sop=12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_udhi=&_udlo=&_pgn=2

miamijim, your frameset was a repaint, and it had some patina. Not sure if the OP's frameset is original paint. If so, I'm guessing it could sell for near $400. Maybe more if that paint scheme means something special to someone (not me!).

I'm not disagreeing I'm just saying $1000 parted out is way optimistic.

Lets say he gets $400 for the frameset which he very well may (alot of the Italians dont get that!!)...add $100 for the wheelset, $100 for the STI's. $40 for the crankset, $10 for the FD, $50 for the RD, $20 for pedals and $50 for brake calipers....

Thats $770 assuming he can get those prices........

I still think my original $500 street/retail is close.

I'm not disagreeing I'm just saying $1000 parted out is way optimistic.

Lets say he gets $400 for the frameset which he very well may (alot of the Italians dont get that!!)...add $100 for the wheelset, $100 for the STI's. $40 for the crankset, $10 for the FD, $50 for the RD, $20 for pedals and $50 for brake calipers....

Thats $770 assuming he can get those prices........

I still think my original $500 street/retail is close.

Well, you're leaving out an awful lot of components...


I'd bet closer to $150-$200 for the wheelset (assuming Dura Ace hubs), $150 for STI, $60 for crankset (if it's mint, maybe more), agree on the FD, agree on the RD, agree on pedals, agree on brake calipers, $50 for headset (but probably more), $30 for BB (but likely more), $50 for seatpost (at least) maybe $30 for the stem/bar combo (not sure), $30 for cassette (if DA).

So, I'm calculating near $1000, assuming the frame sells for $300. Of course, that's if all components are in mint condition, and it is in fact a full DA group, as OP stated. This would, however, require excellent ebay adverts with excellent photos and descriptions.

I do agree with you that the 'street value' on CL would be closer to $500 complete.

Hi, thanks for the reply. I paid 600 figuring I could part out for about $1000 (I've done this with all the DA 7400 parts in the past). I was really expecting this would be more--I see Paramounts getting 400-1000 just for the frame/fork and this is in mint condition.

Sounds like you already had your answer.

I mostly lurk here, but will jump in. I'm at the end of parting out a six speed DA group and the numbers you guys are quoting for individual pieces are pretty spot on with what I've received. Thought the crank would go for more and was surprised that the seatpost did.

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo246/royleroy/Dura%20Ace%20Group/DSC02950Medium.jpg

Sounds like you already had your answer.

Indeed!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=150321273711

As I mentioned before, I originally bought this to part out. I've done this a number of times, mostly with OCLV and Shimano, mostly DA. I've done a bunch of DA7400 and have found, as noted, that it doesn't carry as much value as newer, say 7700. I've found the items that bring the most value are not the drivetrain; instead it is the other stuff--hubs, seat tube, cassette, and headset.

This bike is intriguing in that it is like a time warp. It really is in that good of shape--it sat in a garage for more than 12 years, unused.

I've done a spreadsheet on this and the only parts I don't have value for is the frame and the stem/bars. The other stuff I have a decent hand on and could do alright. My main question is: Is this a real Paramount? From the serial number 580D MW A92042 I think it is. The Waterford website has information on what these SNs meant. The first 3 are the size (a 0 was added) the next number is the product code--but I don't know what the D means. The next letter is suppose to be the Company code--but they say K for Paramount and L for Waterford--mine is a M. The next letter was for the factory and mine indicates Waterford (W) plus it written on one of the chainstays (designed and handbuilt in waterford, wi) And the rest seems consistent to Jan, 1992, bike 43) (A92043). They say there was some inconsistency with these numbers, though. So if it's a real Waterford made Paramount, then there should be some decent value in a nearly perfect frame/fork of this era.

By the way, nice to find opinions on bike stuff here. My primary enjoyment is riding bikes. I learned to wrench out of $ necessity and now know my way around road bikes are somewhat around mt bikes. I have paid for my last few bikes with ebay/craigs so it's worked out ok. I've built up my last few bikes including my 06 madone. I rode this Paramount one day and my Madone the next. I still prefer the later though enjoyed the feel of steel with the former.

I think "D" indictes fork size (which corresponds w/ frame size), and "M" indicates oversized tubing. 'W" is Waterford.

Coincidentally, this thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=448141) was just unearthed in the main C&V forum board. In it, there is information on decoding Waterford built Paramount S/Ns, posted my Scooper, who is arguably the Schwinn expert on the forum:


The real tip-offs as to whether a bike is a Waterford Paramount or a Panasonic built Series Paramount are the "Series" decal, the serial number (Series bikes' serial numbers start with a number (last digit of year) then a letter (A-M, representing the month)), while the Waterford bikes have the self-describing serial numbers like 620E WK 87077 (620 is the frame size in mm, "E" is the fork steerer tube length, "W" is Waterford, "K" is the month of October, "87" is the year, and "077" means it's the 77th frame built in October, 1987). Finally, the Series Paramounts were delivered with unicrown forks while none of the Waterford road Paramounts had unicrown forks.

As I mentioned before, I originally bought this to part out. I've done this a number of times, mostly with OCLV and Shimano, mostly DA. I've done a bunch of DA7400 and have found, as noted, that it doesn't carry as much value as newer, say 7700. I've found the items that bring the most value are not the drivetrain; instead it is the other stuff--hubs, seat tube, cassette, and headset.

I've done a spreadsheet on this and the only parts I don't have value for is the frame and the stem/bars. The other stuff I have a decent hand on and could do alright. My main question is: Is this a real Paramount? From the serial number 580D MW A92042 I think it is. The Waterford website has information on what these SNs meant. The first 3 are the size (a 0 was added) the next number is the product code--but I don't know what the D means. The next letter is suppose to be the Company code--but they say K for Paramount and L for Waterford--mine is a M. The next letter was for the factory and mine indicates Waterford (W) plus it written on one of the chainstays (designed and handbuilt in waterford, wi) And the rest seems consistent to Jan, 1992, bike 43) (A92043). They say there was some inconsistency with these numbers, though. So if it's a real Waterford made Paramount, then there should be some decent value in a nearly perfect frame/fork of this era.


I think "D" indictes fork size (which corresponds w/ frame size), and "M" indicates oversized tubing. 'W" is Waterford.


I believe norskagent is correct in regards to the 'D'. Schwinn was using letters to indicate steerer tube length.

Adventurer..in regards to the bars, stem and frameset. The bars and stem are ~$10-20 each and the frameset seomewhere in the $300-400 range. I feel the big wild card on the frameset is the paint scheme. Personaly, I like it.

Sell in the spring to maximize your return.

Jim

Well, thanks to all for the responses and education. So it seems I have a nice, but newer version of the Paramount, made in USA, but nothing special. It does have a weird paint job, but that is coming from someone with a bright ORANGE Madone with orange rimmed Pro Race 3s on Black and silver Ksyriums with everything else black (Force drivetrain, FSA kforce crank, zero gravity brakes, Easton carbon post, stem, bars) It sure gets more comments than the last few bikes I've had. One has to appreciate the unique...

I have the bike on ebay on a best offer and am getting a bunch of hits/watches/ but no offers. The information I am getting here plus the value ed I am getting on ebay helps alot. If I don't get a decent offer I suspect I will keep it for a fun second bike and maybe sell in when the sun comes out later this year. Doug

$1795 Buy it now! This will be breaking new ground.

I think it will take more than the sun to come out to get to this level.

Edit: I see he has dropped the price to $1395. Still breaking new ground. Will be a sign that the economy is humming!

I suspect I will keep it for a fun second bike and maybe sell in when the sun comes out later this year.

You will be keeping it as a fun second bike.

-Kurt

P.S.: Get some nice, 1000x800 high-resolution pictures of the bike, host them on Photobucket, and put them in the ad with HTML. Except for the chainstay photo, it is very difficult to make out the specific appearance of that wacky '90s paint job on the eBay ad. Nobody will bid on a bike they can't see the paint job on.

Fair enough on the suggestions. I did the buy it now/ offer on Ebay just to see what kind of responses/questions would pop up. It costs like $1 to do it that way vs. an auction with a reserve but I revised the price down a bit. I am hoping there are more people looking at the ad than just folks here on this forum! The ad is getting high volume and many watchers, so we'll see.

Fair enough on the suggestions. I did the buy it now/ offer on Ebay just to see what kind of responses/questions would pop up. It costs like $1 to do it that way vs. an auction with a reserve but I revised the price down a bit. I am hoping there are more people looking at the ad than just folks here on this forum! The ad is getting high volume and many watchers, so we'll see.


Watchers mean very little. I am watching myself just to see if you can get it. I hope you do, it will be a good sign for the classic bike market. I have my doubts, but hey, every once in a while, ebay can surprise us all.

+1 If you are serious about selling the bike, you need a lot more pictures, with closeups on components.

I am hoping there are more people looking at the ad than just folks here on this forum!

Who me?

Your strategy is solid. Put in a high what-the-hell dream price, and someone who offers $400 less will think they're getting a steal! One caveat: people will be searching the web for info, and if they turn up this thread they'll see your original purchase price.

I thought about the reveals here for Ebay buyers but I though it's one of those things where someone would just figure I found a barnyard gem and that's my luck. I've done enough breakdowns and part sales on ebay to be fairly comfortable on what I can get for parts (and the input here has verified my estimates--although I've seen wild swings over time on the 7400 stuff). What I didn't know what what the value was for the bike intact with paramount specific stuff like the frame (obviously) and the stem/bars with the P on them. Now I know. I will take the suggestion to get better pics (I did the originals with a simple digitial but will get busy with a better lens). I really appreciate the knowledge here. Now if I can just find a similar forum for a 74 targa I would be thrilled!

I mostly lurk here, but will jump in. I'm at the end of parting out a six speed DA group and the numbers you guys are quoting for individual pieces are pretty spot on with what I've received. Thought the crank would go for more and was surprised that the seatpost did.

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo246/royleroy/Dura%20Ace%20Group/DSC02950Medium.jpg

Nice stuff. Parting it out was much better economically.
And this is the bike that group was on.... I definitely could not have afforded the aggregate total.

http://velospace.org/files/P1080636.JPG

Well, the auction ended and the OP got $1092 for the bike. He lowered the BIN price a couple of times. I would think that is top value out of that bike.

Well, the auction ended and the OP got $1092 for the bike. He lowered the BIN price a couple of times. I would think that is top value out of that bike.

Well, congrats to adventurer90. That's far more than I expected it would fetch. Which proves the point of those who hate value threads; because only the market knows what something is worth.

I'm thinking that paint put it over the top!

Well, the auction ended and the OP got $1092 for the bike. He lowered the BIN price a couple of times. I would think that is top value out of that bike.

Some $500 more than the 'Top of the extreme high end of the market' price proposed here.

Someday, what' it worth questions will get more useful answers on this forum but for now, it's pretty obvious that many people are pricing from the gut and ignoring market realities. $170 or better Trek 400 series bikes,$300 lugged Allez's, $175 Alyeska's do exist but only because their owners don't have the wherewithall to search for market prices, rather than listen to the valuations of bike collectors, enthusiasts and flippers, who all have a personal interest in keeping their valuations on the low end of the scale..

Someday, what' it worth questions will get more useful answers on this forum but for now, it's pretty obvious that many people are pricing from the gut and ignoring market realities...

I dont think anyone who guesstimated a price ignored market condition/realities. I based my valuation on real world prices I've received for similar bikes/parts.

To be honest, I never thought it'd would get that much regardless of it being in almost new condition. The bike had few things going agianst it but it still brought good money. Congrats to the seller.We now a new benchmark to base future valuations on. If you havent noticed there was another Paramount inquiry that received higher valuations partialy based on what this one sold for.

I think there are a couple of reasons the bike commanded a premium.

For one thing, it looks like it's in really great condition. Also, the '89 and later Waterford Paramounts with OS tubing are simply better bikes than those with standard size tubing like my '87. I agree with JunkYardBike that the paint job probably made it more desirable as well.

Someday, what' it worth questions will get more useful answers on this forum but for now, it's pretty obvious that many people are pricing from the gut and ignoring market realities. $170 or better Trek 400 series bikes,$300 lugged Allez's, $175 Alyeska's do exist but only because their owners don't have the wherewithall to search for market prices, rather than listen to the valuations of bike collectors, enthusiasts and flippers, who all have a personal interest in keeping their valuations on the low end of the scale..

That comment was wholly unwarranted. I truly question just how much proof you have that the valuations given here were wholly arbitrary and kept low for selfishness.

You fail to realize that most of the valuations given here are typically based on a general price average of similar examples sold prior. Just because this machine sold for roughly $500 over the valuations here means relatively little unless all prior examples brought similar prices.

Point blank, the seller found a sucker - and you can throw all general market valuations out the window if you find one.

Same theory applies to the $1,067 Schwinn Super Sport that was on eBay recently. Would you dare chastise a VVI valuation team for giving an approximate value of $250-350? Of course not - not unless you were some newbie pest that wanted to prove themselves more intelligent then those with knowledge. It is an exception to the rule that comes once in a blue moon, and hardly ever again.

-Kurt

Point blank, the seller found a sucker - and you can throw all general market valuations out the window if you find one.

-Kurt

Actually let's not forget this was an auction so to get that price he had to find two "suckers"

I agree with JunkYardBike that the paint job probably made it more desirable as well.

Althought I commented that I liked the paint scheme I thought it would hold it value back as it seemed too unique.......and it being the bead of winter.


You fail to realize that most of the valuations given here are typically based on a general price average of similar examples sold prior. Just because this machine sold for roughly $500 over the valuations here means relatively little unless all prior examples brought similar prices.

Same theory applies to the $1,067 Schwinn Super Sport that was on eBay recently. Would you dare chastise a VVI valuation team for giving an approximate value of $250-350? Of course not - not unless you were some newbie pest that wanted to prove themselves more intelligent then those with knowledge. It is an exception to the rule that comes once in a blue moon, and hardly ever again.

-Kurt

How about my fully refurbished '73 ladies Super Sport that only brought $85? Sometimes there's no rhyme or reason for why things get what they do.

Actually let's not forget this was an auction so to get that price he had to find two "suckers"

Depends what the reserve was.....

Kurt,

I couldn't disagree more.

I warrant my comment by the general consensus amongst more than three people here that this P'mount was worth $600 tops. There's no arguing that keeping valuations generally low is to the benefit of potential buyers who have the ear of uninformed sellers *directly* and while I'm not accusing anyone of poor intentions in this particular transaction, I am consistently put-off by what regulars expect to pay for a quality prospect.

I've offered the idea that we test the theory by offering up valuations of current, agreed to be well presented, but unfinished auctions and comparing them to the real ending prices. Seems to me that we would be offering far more potential learning power by dissecting the true particulars that allow a given prospect to realise full value in this fashion, rather than leaving it to the 'ask the experts' format we've got going here.

Danny

Actually let's not forget this was an auction so to get that price he had to find two "suckers"

Actually, not true. He just had a Buy It Now, Best Offer listing. This is a good way to find the one sucker out there that puts a high value on an item. He only got the one offer, which he accepted.

I recently sold a couple of non-bicycle items this way. Last year, I sold the same items via the standard auction, and was disappointed with the result (I almost always start auctions at 99 cents). Now I use a relatively high buy it now, and accept I will not get auction fever. It is an interesting strategy for people that routinely use ebay to sell stuff.

Probably half the items I now sell are buy it now, with no lower opening bid (so it starts and ends with the buy it now). My exception is for items I know will have strong interest, based on bid histories for similar sales.


I am still amazed by the 1973 Super Sport with the bent fork that sold on ebay last summer for over $1000. I cannot use that ridiculous sale to influence my value estimate. I have a 1973 Super Sport myself to sell, and would love to get that price. But it is not going to happen. I am asking $250 for the bike, which I think is a reasonable market price. No one is beating down my door to buy it. But the posting of this Super Sport on C/L did allow me to sell a sweet U08 that fit the buyer much better for a strong price.

So sometimes on ebay, you have these outliers, high and low, that should not be used for valuations. Like the 83 Trek 620 I bought on ebay a month ago for $113, in mint condition. Or the $20 Univega Supra Sport I bought two months ago on ebay (both local pickups). Neither seller got close to full value, based to poor listings, lousy pictures, and poor descriptions. I would consider this particular Paramount to be a similar outlier sale, just on the high end this time.


As far as how some of us on this site are giving people value guidance, my guidance is based on real sales I have made in the last year. Buy and sell enough bikes, and you do get a pretty good idea of what you can get for a given bike, particularly if it is taking you multiple Craigs List postings and multiple days to sell the bike. I have yet to sell a bike immediately on Craigs List. So I doubt I could get much more out of my bikes, and I am not interested in holding a bunch of them to see. I would rather turn them and move on.

Seems to me that we would be offering far more potential learning power by dissecting the true particulars that allow a given prospect to realise full value in this fashion
Danny

We did that.....

We did that.....

True, you did some. Not alot though.US built Paramount frames of this time period with unique paint jobs and in excellent shape typically fetch between $600-900, frame/fork alone. If that's true, how is it that $600 was the call for the whole bike?

US built Paramount frames of this time period with unique paint jobs and in excellent shape typically fetch between $600-900, frame/fork alone.

Oh realy? Links? If they did we would have valuated it at that. With the exception of my undervaluation of the STI levers I still stand by intial assesment.

Best I can do on short notivce:

http://www.serotta.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53316&highlight=paramount

http://www.serotta.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47106&highlight=paramount

Best I can do on short notivce:

http://www.serotta.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53316&highlight=paramount

http://www.serotta.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47106&highlight=paramount

Both are bogus. Ahow me completed sales...NOT asking prices. Link #1 has a Mavic group with what I believe are very desirable starfish cranks.....

I'm signing off on this one......adios.

The going prices of late eighties/early nineties Paramounts, even those with True Temper OS tubing, have been well below the actual value of these bikes IMHO.

In a practical sense, they are arguably superior in virtually every way to the sixties and seventies Paramounts, but the earlier bikes with their chromed Nervex lugs, fork crowns, and front and rear fork ends invariably sell for substantially higher prices.

The price difference almost has to be the bling factor of the chrome and Campy Record/Nuovo Record components since the Waterford bikes are lighter, built to closer tolerances, and have STI shifting.

Both are bogus. Ahow me completed sales...NOT asking prices. Link #1 has a Mavic group with what I believe are very desirable starfish cranks.....

I'm signing off on this one......adios.

Before you sign off, why not offer up some proof on your end. I do believe that both of the bikes I posted did sell. Sorry for calling your earlier valuation bogus, I guess.

You know what? On second thought, don't. My idea is that this is all self-fulfilling prophecy and that's the crux of the problem. You call it $600 on what is the equivalent of a major media forum and potential buyers call that the aiming point. It sells for $600 or so and everybody's feeling the system works. One guy calls your numbers wishful thinking and you can't even fairly argue the point, declaring the higher result a once in a lifetime luckfest.

The prices of Japan-made Paramounts are definitely depressed by this internet proselytizing. If not so then why are lower model line Circuits and Prologues consistently selling for more than top line Paramounts do?

I warrant my comment by the general consensus amongst more than three people here that this P'mount was worth $600 tops. There's no arguing that keeping valuations generally low is to the benefit of potential buyers who have the ear of uninformed sellers *directly* and while I'm not accusing anyone of poor intentions in this particular transaction, I am consistently put-off by what regulars expect to pay for a quality prospect.

If you hold this belief so strongly, might I ask why you did not chime in earlier?

-Kurt

The going prices of late eighties/early eighties Paramounts, even those with True Temper OS tubing, have been well below the actual value of these bikes IMHO.

In a practical sense, they are arguably superior in virtually every way to the sixties and seventies Paramounts, but the earlier bikes with their chromed Nervex lugs, fork crowns, and front and rear fork ends invariably sell for substantially higher prices.

The price difference almost has to be the bling factor of the chrome and Campy Record/Nuovo Record components since the Waterford bikes are lighter, built to closer tolerances, and have STI shifting.

A big part of this phenomenon is the "Vintage" effect. It's not a superiority of technology issue, it's an emotional issue that drives the higher prices for the older Paramounts. People have a fond spot in their heart, and that fond spot means they are willling to pay a premium price.

If you hold this belief so strongly, might I ask why you did not chime in earlier?

-Kurt

I didn't add an opinion because I was uneasy about giving my advice, given the trouncing I've taken arguing the idea that a given Paramount price should be higher before. I didn't think I had anything to offer that I could say with certainty and wanted to avoid being held to a fire over it. A concern that has been reinforced via this last set of postings today BTW.

If by saying the above you're suggesting that I'm trolling you, well Kurt, you know me by now and should know better.

What I said may displease you but it is a valid criticism and is worth exploring responsibly.

No, just curious.

That said, I wouldn't let any complaints stop your own valuations. Give the advice you believe is right, and simply ignore any complaints. You need not have to justify your opinion - let the OP do so.

-Kurt