Folding Bikes - capreo, how bad do you want it?

shimano capreo has been around for some time now.
but I just realized, that this thing, aside from the 3 speed internal gear hub,
in my opinion, is the ultimate match for small wheeled folder.
and I mean small. 16 and smaller.
why?
when you calculate the gear inches (can use the sheldon's calculator),
you can get relatively high gear inches (with the 9t cog), while you still get around 30 something low gear inches (with the 26t cog)
and I just realized, the price for hub and cassette is just little more than 100 dollahs.
this is not so expensive as upgrading your folders with a 52t crank for road bike.
and definitely not as expensive as buying a 7/8 speed internal gear. (consider the extra weight, too)

so, I am calling all 16 inch wheelers.
how bad do you want it? (why is it that only a handful of makers, provide them as OEM?)
is it just me??

I was told by DrYan@ Downtube that their Capreo Mini model was discontinued because of no ready availability of service/replacement parts for the Capreo.

Bike Friday has been using them for years. Roger

The Dahon MU C9 uses the Capreo system.

@Tedi: I was considering the same last night... a 50 front with 9-26 would give my 20"er a 36"-105" range. PERFECT. But yeah, that means building a new wheel... and getting a 32h rim which isn't common where we live. How much is the Capreo? Did you see it at RL?

Now I'm considering 60/11-32 for 35"-103". But the vuelta site says it's "out of stock" on the 60t-110. You want to group buy? :D

I converted my Dahon SmoothHound to Capreo. It's a great drivetrain for a small wheel. I use it with standard 52/39 front chainrings.

I got very lucky and found a pre-built 20" wheel on Craigslist for a very good price.

What parts are not available? You can still buy Capreo cassettes on the market.

That's true. In fact, the Capreo cassettes, and the freehubs are really the only two parts necessary for the conversion. Harris Cyclery carries them. All other components like derailleurs, and shifters don't have to be Capreo.

Regards,
Edward


I converted my Dahon SmoothHound to Capreo. It's a great drivetrain for a small wheel. I use it with standard 52/39 front chainrings.

I got very lucky and found a pre-built 20" wheel on Craigslist for a very good price.

What parts are not available? You can still buy Capreo cassettes on the market.

I'm really interested in building a 16" wheel with capreo components, but right now I can't afford it. I'm hoping I can save up some money before spring to get it done. It's the least I could do for my Tikit. :)

--sam

I have a Capreo setup on my Birdy, and it works really well. It doesn't have quite the range of an 11-34 though, so if you need a particularly high or low gear, you may be best adjusting the chain ring size on a wide range cassette. I'm considering getting a 53/39 crankset for mine - I find it both a little low on the high end and a little high on the low end. But really, it works well for most things, I'm just nitpicking ;)

What parts are not available? You can still buy Capreo cassettes on the market.

Don't know -- just passing on what I was told when I asked about the DT Mini Capreo's discontinuation.

Don't know -- just passing on what I was told when I asked about the DT Mini Capreo's discontinuation.

I think it would be accurate to say that Capreo parts are not as readily available in the general market. If you're touring and break down in the middle of Timbuktu, your chances of finding parts stocked at the local bike shop would be minimal.

It'll give you the gear inches, sure, but the drive train efficiency with the Capreo's tiny 9, 10 & 11T cogs is poorer than most IGHs. This small cog effect is well documented in many sources; one convenient place to read about this is the report begining on page 3 of:

http://www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf

Best,
tcs

I think it would be accurate to say that Capreo parts are not as readily available in the general market. If you're touring and break down in the middle of Timbuktu, your chances of finding parts stocked at the local bike shop would be minimal.

I like what I've read about the Capreo, and if I were buying a Bike Friday Tikit, I'd be having a hard time deciding between a Capreo and the Nexus, though I'd rather have an SRAM iMotion9 or a Shimano Alfine. Yet I know that any of those IGHs would be hard to get repaired here in Philadelphia.

Your Timbuktu comment certainly seems plausible, but have you actually canvassed the major folding bike retailers/etailers in the major metro areas around the country and confirmed that they stock Capreo components? I haven't done so myself, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that most do not, and treat Capreo as special order items. I expect Capreo and multi-speed IGHs are probably similar in this regard: the bike shops order them when you want a wheel built up, or when you come in with a warranty claim, but they won't have any in stock.

I got very lucky and found a pre-built 20" wheel on Craigslist for a very good price.

OMG! VA Hospital? If so, you're the one who bought that wheel out from underneath me. I spoke to the person who placed that ad within a few minutes of it posting. I thought we had a understanding that he was going to hold it for me until our arranged meeting time, only to have him email me back to say he sold it. :mad:

From searching high and low, it seems to be unavailable to the end consumer. It's been a long time since I've seen them available at Harris Cyclery.

This small cog effect is well documented in many sources; one convenient place to read about this is the report begining on page 3 of:


This "study" is from 2001 - Capreo was debuted several years later.

@Tedi: I was considering the same last night... a 50 front with 9-26 would give my 20"er a 36"-105" range. PERFECT. But yeah, that means building a new wheel... and getting a 32h rim which isn't common where we live. How much is the Capreo? Did you see it at RL?

Now I'm considering 60/11-32 for 35"-103". But the vuelta site says it's "out of stock" on the 60t-110. You want to group buy? :D

@joseff,
which one, that group buy idea: the capreo or vuelta?
I will consider the capreo, only if the jakarta nett price is lower than the price of alfine in jkt ($185?)
weight-wise and gear-range-wise, I'd prefer the capreo.
getting a correct number of rimholes is not quite an issue for me, since those handy jakarta mechanics can custom-tailor any hubs to any rims.....

I'm looking at a 60t chainring to keep my cassette a "common" 11-32.

Have you considered the SA 8-speed? It has a 1st gear DD and goes to 305% overdrive. Not much more expensive than the capreo hub + cassette, considering the mileage you're likely to get out of it. Cheaper than the Alfine as well.

They're just skipping holes, I can build a wheel for you if you want that :)

OMG! VA Hospital? If so, you're the one who bought that wheel out from underneath me. I spoke to the person who placed that ad within a few minutes of it posting. I thought we had a understanding that he was going to hold it for me until our arranged meeting time, only to have him email me back to say he sold it. :mad:

From searching high and low, it seems to be unavailable to the end consumer. It's been a long time since I've seen them available at Harris Cyclery.

:o:o:o

Ooops, sorry!

This "study" is from 2001 - Capreo was debuted several years later.

It's not like the capreo incorporates some kind of new technology; The spline on the freehub is just redesigned to make room for smaller cogs. Therefore, since smaller cogs are known to be less efficient in general (even with a standard setup) it bears to reason that the smaller cogs on the capreo are also less efficient than using bigger chainrings instead.

Not that it matters to me, I'd take a smaller cog over a bigger chainring any day because anything bigger undermines the very purpose of having a folder.

I'm looking at a 60t chainring to keep my cassette a "common" 11-32.Vuelta make affordable 60T ones.

This "study" is from 2001...

You put study in quotation marks - you should know that Dr. Kyle and Mr. Berto are considered to be some of the world's leading authorities on bicycle drivetrains with decades of background each, and that the International Human Power Vehicle Association's publications are respected journals. Advice: dismissing their work without published peer-reviewed papers of your own in the field will marginalize you in any serious discussion.

tcs

Now I'm considering 60/11-32 for 35"-103". But the vuelta site says it's "out of stock" on the 60t-110. You want to group buy? :DYou can still get them from loosescrews.com.

:o:o:o

Ooops, sorry!

All will be forgiven...... if you let me ride your TSR sometimes. :D

All will be forgiven...... if you let me ride your TSR sometimes. :D

You're on. I'm going to post a ride for Feb 10. PM124 is coming out to SF and I'm planning a ride over the GG Bridge and up the Marin headlands. Maybe we'll see you there!

You put study in quotation marks - you should know that Dr. Kyle and Mr. Berto are considered to be some of the world's leading authorities on bicycle drivetrains with decades of
tcs

There were several things, from reading this quickly, that weren't great. The age predates use of more modern internal hubs (8 speeds). Their assertion that an average person can't exert more than 200w is not true. Perhaps not for hour(s), but certainly for a small amount of time, which is the domain of interest (folding bikes). In fact, the use of fewer gears will encourage crazy power outputs as one finds oneself standing in complete exertion ascending a hill in an undergeared bike. They said that the resistance wheel added 2-2.5% to the total friction ; why was this constant over all powers. I don't recall seeing real 98%+ efficiencies shown with any of their control tests. I think one of their sample datas was bad because something broke. What about freewheeling energy loss comparisons? Yes, they had some interesting ideas and trends, but it could be improved. But not by me- not interested in spending the time or money.

It's not like the capreo incorporates some kind of new technology; The spline on the freehub is just redesigned to make room for smaller cogs. Therefore, since smaller cogs are known to be

Where exactly is the power lost in the smaller cogs? I agree with you, but perhaps they have found a way to better minimize losses where they may had previously occurred. Like better distributing the balls or using needle bearings to support the smaller freehub over the axle. I'm not sure what's inside - if that's significantly different than a normal hub from which other generalizations are made with normal sized BBs.

Also I don't recall from this study issues related to lifetime of the mechanisms or maintenance required to sustain power or testing over various different states of the mechanisms (dirty + very clean), weren't some of the transmissions also worn in and others new?

Where exactly is the power lost in the smaller cogs? I agree with you, but perhaps they have found a way to better minimize losses where they may had previously occurred. Like better distributing the balls or using needle bearings to support the smaller freehub over the axle. I'm not sure what's inside - if that's significantly different than a normal hub from which other generalizations are made with normal sized BBs.

Also I don't recall from this study issues related to lifetime of the mechanisms or maintenance required to sustain power or testing over various different states of the mechanisms (dirty + very clean), weren't some of the transmissions also worn in and others new?

I recall that they mention the tighter bend around the cog. So I assume that there is friction in the chain as individual links rotate relative to the next kink. The hub itself looks like every other Shimano hub I repacked. The freehub has a different shape than a typical Shimano freehub. But I believe that the section with the ball bearings is identical.

I think most of the loss in a chain drive comes from running through the derailer pulleys where the links swivel back and forth. The clearest proof of this is when you remove the derailer from a bike; the improvement is significant. A similar effect can be seen by pushing the derailer forwards a bit, relaxing the chain tension. So smaller cogs which also cause more swiveling have more loss.

AFAIK, the Capreo Mini was discontinued because nobody wanted one, at least compared to the SA Mini, but I could be wrong.

shimano capreo ... how bad do you want it? ... is it just me??

Well, evidently it's not just you, but honestly I have no interest in Capreo whatsoever. For all the trouble I've had with my Sturmey Archer hub, I'd rather have that than a derailleur.

AFAIK, the Capreo Mini was discontinued because nobody wanted one, at least compared to the SA Mini, but I could be wrong.

I'm only reporting what I was told by Yan. But I tend to agree with your opinion because the prevailing perception about Downtube bikes is that they're good bargains, and so relatively expensive Capreo components on a DT Mini are not likely to have appealed to a large enough segment of their sales prospects-base.

Where exactly is the power lost in the smaller cogs? I agree with you, but perhaps they have found a way to better minimize losses where they may had previously occurred. Like better distributing the balls or using needle bearings to support the smaller freehub over the axle. I'm not sure what's inside - if that's significantly different than a normal hub from which other generalizations are made with normal sized BBs.

Also I don't recall from this study issues related to lifetime of the mechanisms or maintenance required to sustain power or testing over various different states of the mechanisms (dirty + very clean), weren't some of the transmissions also worn in and others new?

I find it hard to see how the losses could have anything to do with the internals. I mean, if the torque is the same then how could the internals possibly know what the diameter of the cog is? It has to be the interface between the chain and the cog...which apparently has greater losses for smaller cogs.

However, you make a good point in that those losses may be compensated by other improvements. For example, I wonder if the chains/cogs with smaller spacing used on minifolders are more efficient.

Here's some food for thought:

My Carryme has a bigger chainring and bigger rear cog than the newer ones (but the same ratio). Is that why the newer one I tried felt less efficient? I've been blaming it on the Schlumpf drive on the newer bike, but the fact that smart guys like BruceMetras and jur don't find fault with the Schlumpf makes me wonder if the smaller cogs are the reason...I suppose I could conclude such if the newer singlespeeds exhibited the same perceived inefficiency, but I haven't tried one yet.