Living Car Free - minimum requirements for car-free life?

I really tried to make a go of living car free in my rural area last summer/fall......but w/ close to 3 feet of snow on the ground, ice covered roads, and sub zero wind chills, I just had to give up for the winter. The other thing factor, besides climate, that I'm struggling w/ is surface area....meaning, how far apart everything is in your daily/weekly round. In my little town, I can get to the grocery store, hardware store, pharmacy, church, library etc. within 5-6 miles easily. But it's anything else but the basics that presents a problem. I play ice hockey and the rinks are at least 17-25 miles away. The nearest wholefoods grocer is 43 miles away. Work is 35 miles away. Our nearest family members are 45 miles away. I'm wondering if there is a minimum "city size" that would make more of these things available in a smaller radius? A city of 500k would do it for sure, but would 250k work? Or even without a larger population, a real college town would probably do it also. Just wondering what the location is of most cyclists who are car free.

Sounds like a place where you do need a car.

I don't know that there is a minimum size place for being car-free though. I've been car-free in L.A., Little Rock, and an unincorporated community outside of Santa Barbara. With my current digs in Little Rock, I actually don't get to downtown Little Rock very often. I live in an area that has all my staple needs including two bikes shops, 4 grocery stores, a big box store, banks, post office, it has wildlife-filled creeks running through it and the big bike riding area just over the hills. All this within a mile or so. In L.A., again, some neighborhoods were better than others.

So, I don't think it's a particular size, but you do need to look for a concentration of services.

sacramento pop. 500k

You can't go by population size alone.

The city I'm in now (Traverse City) has a population of only 14,000, with a metro area about 10 times that size. But it's the only city in northwestern Michigan, so it has a good hospital and library, museums, bookstores and coffee shops that you'd expect in a larger city. It's also a resort city, so it has a lot of good restaurants and recreational facilities. The central area is very bike/walk friendly, but the Sprawl Zone is pretty bad. The closest big city is Grand Rapids, about 135 miles to the south. Over all I would give it a "B" for carfree living.

Most small cities/towns have more amenities than they used to. I briefly lived in Charlotte, MI (pop. 8,000). There were the major big box stores so you could buy most things you really need. However, I found few of the "finer things" like restaurants, libraries, bookstores, coffee shops. A trip to the ER seemed like a suicide run if you had a serious health problem. For recreation, road biking and mountain biking were about all. The big city was 22 miles away. Bus service was very bad--no fixed routes, just unreliable and slow on-demand vans. A trip to the city was an all day affair, whether you went by bike or bus. This would have been an acceptable carfree location only if you were satisfied with the amenities in the town itself. I would give it a "C-" on the carfree scale.

Well taking the thread title at face value, the minimum requirement is to not be dependent on a car. Your location can make the experience more or less pleasant. Not being car dependent guides your choices, when you have a choice between sprawl land and old fashioned compact community not having a car leads you to value the compact community. My car dependent friends don't even think about it, they'll be in their cars stuck in traffic no matter where they live.

Roody,
Has pretty well got it pegged. It will depend on what you need vs what's available, and no two towns/cities/metros are going to be the same. I know of a town of 10k in NC that is very doable by bike and has just about everything you could need...except access to any form of interstate/intrastate mass transit. It is 35 miles to the nearest bus station or train station and over an hour45 miles to the nearest commercial airport and 1.5 hours65 miles to the nearest international, even though it is on an Interstate and has 2 major US highways running through town.

Another town that I am fairly familiar with, has a population of 4,000 is in a very poor part of the country, is very livable, actually has a better selection of stores than the 10k town above, has 4 Amtrak trains a day and 2 Greyhounds, nearest airport is about 45 minutes40 miles, nearest large one just over an hour50 miles, it is on a major US highway and about an hour45 miles from the interstate.

FWIW in both towns the weather is mild enough you can ride year round with little problems. Another thing to consider is your employment, is it something that can be done anywhere? or is it regional or town size specific?

You will have to make your choices and decide what you need versus what is available.

Aaron:)

It is 35 miles to the nearest bus station or train station and over an hour to the nearest commercial airport and 1.5 hours to the nearest international, even though it is on an Interstate and has 2 major US highways running through town.

Another town that I am fairly familiar with, has a population of 4,000 is in a very poor part of the country, is very livable, actually has a better selection of stores than the 10k town above, has 4 Amtrak trains a day and 2 Greyhounds, nearest airport is about 45 minutes, nearest large one just over an hour, it is on a major US highway and about an hour from the interstate.


I assume those distances, measured in time, are much greater than that when traveled by a car free person.

I assume those distances, measured in time, are much greater than that when traveled by a car free person.

Not if they are a roadie cranked up to 450 watts:p

Aaron:)

I'm car free in a town of just 2000, with very few amenities - a couple of golf courses, a pub, and an expensive convenience store. I generally cycle 6 miles each way to the next town which has 4 supermarkets and a rail station, and everything I could possibly need is in the city 25 miles away. There is a bus every 30 minutes to the city if I don't feel like cycling that far on a busy main road, which I often don't.

I'm car free in a town of just 2000, with very few amenities - a couple of golf courses, a pub, and an expensive convenience store. I generally cycle 6 miles each way to the next town which has 4 supermarkets and a rail station, and everything I could possibly need is in the city 25 miles away. There is a bus every 30 minutes to the city if I don't feel like cycling that far on a busy main road, which I often don't.

That bus to the city is the key, IMO.

In most US small towns, you don't have a bus to the city more than once a day--if you're very lucky. The small town I lived in was just under 25 miles form the city. No bus, just a shuttle van. It sometimes took 2 hours or more to make the trip in. And then, it would only take you to an outlying shopping mall, and then another long bus ride to the city center. This was unacceptable to me, and I had to move.

... access to company owned vehicles :D

sacramento pop. 500k

Sacramento will work, sometimes.

But my daughter's school is 5+ miles away on the other side of I-5 with no safe biking route across the highway. (I've got enough experience with it that I'll ride across Del Paso overpass, but my wife would never attempt it, let alone let me take my six year old on the Trail-a-Bike). She can take the school bus on any normal day. But after-school functions put all three of us at the school way past dark.

And her dance lessons are 6 miles away down the busiest street in Natomas on Saturday when the buses don't run. My daughter's doctor (all of our doctors actually) is 15 miles away. I could go on, but let's just say it would be very hard.

If I was single I could be carfree easy here. Even without a child it wouldn't be too hard. With children, throw all equations out the window. I'm just hoping for one car before too long.

I'm in a town of around 12,000 people. It's easy to go extremely car light here, but car-free would be a challenge. My day-to-day needs are easy to meet locally, but when I need a bookstore, a bike shop, clothing, a lot of computer supplies or numerous other things I'll need only occasionally, I've got to go out of town. If I lived in the largest city in the region (with around 150,000 people) car-free living would be much easier since it would have everything I need.

I've been in some smaller centres which have become hubs for the surrounding area. In those communities, it's easy to go car-free because all businesses and services are close at hand.

I'm pretty well set in my town of 15,000. The only thing lacking is a book store. I head down to the big city (35 minute ride each way) for that occasionally. The nearest hockey rink is about a 75 minute ride each way, maybe 55 minutes each way with a bike / light rail trip.

Car free for 3 or 4 years now.

That bus to the city is the key, IMO.

In most US small towns, you don't have a bus to the city more than once a day--if you're very lucky. The small town I lived in was just under 25 miles form the city. No bus, just a shuttle van. It sometimes took 2 hours or more to make the trip in. And then, it would only take you to an outlying shopping mall, and then another long bus ride to the city center. This was unacceptable to me, and I had to move.

Without that bus, I'd find it difficult too. Despite what I've heard about America's love affair with the car, it's still hard to believe that many of you don't have alternatives when I see them here every day.

Sacramento will work, sometimes.

But my daughter's school is 5+ miles away on the other side of I-5 with no safe biking route across the highway. (I've got enough experience with it that I'll ride across Del Paso overpass, but my wife would never attempt it, let alone let me take my six year old on the Trail-a-Bike). She can take the school bus on any normal day. But after-school functions put all three of us at the school way past dark.

And her dance lessons are 6 miles away down the busiest street in Natomas on Saturday when the buses don't run. My daughter's doctor (all of our doctors actually) is 15 miles away. I could go on, but let's just say it would be very hard.

If I was single I could be carfree easy here. Even without a child it wouldn't be too hard. With children, throw all equations out the window. I'm just hoping for one car before too long.

Ya thats a tough car-free area of Sac-town but there are of course better places. My area is not ideal either, I live around Rancho Cordova so I have light rail access within a few black and I am also just a few block from the American River Bicycle Trail! AS you said being single helps a lot too!

I really tried to make a go of living car free in my rural area last summer/fall......but w/ close to 3 feet of snow on the ground, ice covered roads, and sub zero wind chills, I just had to give up for the winter. The other thing factor, besides climate, that I'm struggling w/ is surface area....meaning, how far apart everything is in your daily/weekly round. In my little town, I can get to the grocery store, hardware store, pharmacy, church, library etc. within 5-6 miles easily. But it's anything else but the basics that presents a problem. I play ice hockey and the rinks are at least 17-25 miles away. The nearest wholefoods grocer is 43 miles away. Work is 35 miles away. Our nearest family members are 45 miles away. I'm wondering if there is a minimum "city size" that would make more of these things available in a smaller radius? A city of 500k would do it for sure, but would 250k work? Or even without a larger population, a real college town would probably do it also. Just wondering what the location is of most cyclists who are car free.

If I were in your situation, I wouldn't be car-free, either; that would require a level of commitment that isn't reasonable. Maybe car-lite would still be an option, though.

Where I live, being car-free is so easy I'm surprised more people don't do it. Seattle is a large, densely-populated urban area with decent (but not great) public transportation. Almost everything I could ever need or want is easily within ten miles of my house. Getting to the airport without a car can be a challenge early in the morning or late at night, but otherwise it's not bad. Occasionally you encounter hostile drivers, but generally, if you're not an idiot or a person who thinks Critical Mass rides are a good idea, the city has a bike-friendly culture. If you're into touring, this is a great area; last summer, I rode my bike from my front door to the San Juan Islands, Port Townsend, and Victoria, BC with minimum hassle. Really, the only actual challenge, other than the very hilly terrain, is the occasional (once or twice a year) snow storm.

I guess what I'm saying is this: many large urban areas are ideal for car-free living. Some of these large urban areas are actually pretty nice. If you're not totally committed to living in a rural area, maybe it's something you might want to consider.

I'm in a fairly rural town of 6,000 with pretty much all absolute necessities--convenience stores, grocery, bank, restaurants, library, clinic, etc.--available within a 2 mi radius.

Right across the state border is a city of 12,000, which includes bigger grocery stores, box stores, and the like, all within 4-5 mi of our house.

Next city over is 29,000 residents, and includes hospital, movie theater, bike shop, bookstore, health food store, and merhaps most importantly, an inter-state bus station, 5-8 miles away--Boston is about 1:45 away by bike then bus.

We work in a city of 21,000, which actually has better amenities (2 bike shops!) than the larger, closer city. Commute is 17.5 mi, one way. We do this commute by bike on a regular basis... during warmer weather when the streets are not iced over.

There's also an area bus service, which would work great getting to the closer cities, but trying to get from our place to work via bus and various different connections would take close to 3hrs one way. Not viable for the work commute, but both of us work at the same place, so we car pool together in the winter.

For our current situation, it would be completely plausible to go car free--toughen up in the Winter or switch to freelance work at home--but we also have to deal with my teen son, picking him up from and dropping him off to his mom's place, chauffering him to various and sundry activities.

As a result, we are car-lite, only one car between us.

This situation has proven pretty educational about the potential to be car free. A warmer climate that supported year round biking (or we HTFU...), a couple years til my son is driving or biking, and car free would be viable. More importantly, if we were to move someplace warmer, I'd be looking for a location with the same kind of setup--convenience and amenities withing walking distance or a short bike ride 2-3mi, wider range of businesses including a public transporation hub within 5-10 mi, and pretty much anything else we might need, including employment, no further than 20 mi or so.

Despite what I've heard about America's love affair with the car, it's still hard to believe that many of you don't have alternatives when I see them here every day.

I know it is hard for you to believe but there really are no alternatives in many US locations. No public transit of any kind, period. Or, more commonly, very poorly-funded public transit that is unreliable. When combined with the general social stigma attached to using public transit it is much more difficult than in Scotland.

Also, there are some historical causes as well--you must consider that many rural areas of the US are much more geographically isolated than any place in the UK or Europe simply because of the sheer quantity of land, and that most of the development here occurred later in the 20th century after car travel was already convenient (unlike many towns in western Europe which were developed in the 18th and 19th centuries and thus are somewhat concentrated geographically).

I really tried to make a go of living car free in my rural area last summer/fall......but w/ close to 3 feet of snow on the ground, ice covered roads, and sub zero wind chills, I just had to give up for the winter. The other thing factor, besides climate, that I'm struggling w/ is surface area....meaning, how far apart everything is in your daily/weekly round. In my little town, I can get to the grocery store, hardware store, pharmacy, church, library etc. within 5-6 miles easily. But it's anything else but the basics that presents a problem. I play ice hockey and the rinks are at least 17-25 miles away. The nearest wholefoods grocer is 43 miles away. Work is 35 miles away. Our nearest family members are 45 miles away. I'm wondering if there is a minimum "city size" that would make more of these things available in a smaller radius? A city of 500k would do it for sure, but would 250k work? Or even without a larger population, a real college town would probably do it also. Just wondering what the location is of most cyclists who are car free.

I honestly can't see folks in rural communities---at least in areas that get snow---being entirely car-free. I live in a big city (4.5m) with four grocery stores anywhere from 1-5 miles away. Every possible convenience and service is available within a 20-30 minute ride for me and, if the weather really sucks, I can take buses or subways and even take my bike on them too (tho my semi-recumbent doesn't fit on the outside bike rack carriers on buses). If I lived outside the city, I know I'd need a winter car, but as soon as the weather cleared, the car would be parked and the bikes would replace it.

keeping the car-free idea going, what would prevent you from using a small displacement motorcycle with some nice saddle bags?

These can be had for under $3000 used and they get great gas mileage.


At least you would still be on 2 wheels and you can stay in your town!

I live in a town of about 100,000 and being car free here is certainly not easy. It's definitely doable, but not easy. It would be extremely difficult without a bicycle, and if had children it would probably be out of the question altogether. I would like to live somewhere more walkable. I like cycling, but it would be nice to be able to walk for errands occasionally (and not have to spend 2 hours doing it). Hopefully soon I'll be moving into the house I'm remodeling which is in a better location, but no place in this town is especially good for car free folks.

keeping the car-free idea going, what would prevent you from using a small displacement motorcycle with some nice saddle bags?

These can be had for under $3000 used and they get great gas mileage.


At least you would still be on 2 wheels and you can stay in your town!

I can honestly say that in my entire 53 years, I have seen somebody ride a motorcycle in the winter only once or twice. Yet I see dozens of bicycles on even the coldest days.

I can honestly say that in my entire 53 years, I have seen somebody ride a motorcycle in the winter only once or twice. Yet I see dozens of bicycles on even the coldest days.



I missed the point of this thread, I've never even been in real snow...

I can honestly say that in my entire 53 years, I have seen somebody ride a motorcycle in the winter only once or twice. Yet I see dozens of bicycles on even the coldest days.

Yeah, a motorcycle in the winter is a whole different level of cold. :twitchy:

Every possible convenience and service is available within a 20-30 minute ride for me and, ...

I was going to say, I think that's the tipping point right there.

People don't usually think in distances, they think in time spent getting wherever they're going. Ignoring freakishly long commutes, you'll use whatever mode of transportation can get you to your destination in less than half an hour -- ideally, 15 minutes or so.

People aren't normally going to drive/bike/walk/subway/cab to dinner, the movies, or for groceries if it takes an hour to get there. If it'll take an hour by foot, going by bike can take 20 minutes and doesn't seem so bad. But, if it's far enough that it'll take an hour or more by bike, driving can knock it down to 20 minutes (again).

Where I live, I can buy all my daily needs just by walking around, and bigger items aren't difficult to find even without a bike. But, I've also lived places where I'd either spend half the day on a bike or take the car and get more done.

I was going to say, I think that's the tipping point right there.

People don't usually think in distances, they think in time spent getting wherever they're going. Ignoring freakishly long commutes, you'll use whatever mode of transportation can get you to your destination in less than half an hour -- ideally, 15 minutes or so.

People aren't normally going to drive/bike/walk/subway/cab to dinner, the movies, or for groceries if it takes an hour to get there. If it'll take an hour by foot, going by bike can take 20 minutes and doesn't seem so bad. But, if it's far enough that it'll take an hour or more by bike, driving can knock it down to 20 minutes (again).

Where I live, I can buy all my daily needs just by walking around, and bigger items aren't difficult to find even without a bike. But, I've also lived places where I'd either spend half the day on a bike or take the car and get more done.

There is another side to that coin. There are many trips that you could make by car. Places you might like to see. Restaurants you could visit. And so on. But...if you don't have a car, you tend to treat all those extreme locations as optional. You don't really need to go there. You can go to a nice closer restaurant by bicycle or foot. You can wait till the movie arrives at your door by Netflicks.

And quite often you discover pretty nice alternatives within your cycling radius.

True. Still, there are places where there just ain't jack s*** within a reasonable cycling radius. You'll have, say, Applebee's, and... well, just Applebee's. ;)

I know it is hard for you to believe but there really are no alternatives in many US locations. No public transit of any kind, period. Or, more commonly, very poorly-funded public transit that is unreliable. When combined with the general social stigma attached to using public transit it is much more difficult than in Scotland.

Also, there are some historical causes as well--you must consider that many rural areas of the US are much more geographically isolated than any place in the UK or Europe simply because of the sheer quantity of land, and that most of the development here occurred later in the 20th century after car travel was already convenient (unlike many towns in western Europe which were developed in the 18th and 19th centuries and thus are somewhat concentrated geographically).

I agree with most of this. There are areas in the interior West of North America that literally have no public transportation at all; if you don't have a car, it's tough, if not impossible, to leave town, and many towns don't really have many services to offer, especially if you object to Walmart. A few years ago, I was in Montana on a road trip, and my traveling companion and I decided to go our separate ways as the result of a heated discussion. Even though I was in a town on the interstate, I ended up having to hitchhike to another "nearby" town that was served by Greyhound, 40 miles away. There was no other bus service at all. When I arrived, I discovered that Greyhound only had one bus per day in each direction, and that I had just missed that day's bus. I ended up renting a car.

I don't think there is a social stigma attached to using public transportation in the US. In fact, I think that more and more people would use public transport if it were offered, especially if it came in the form of light rail, which frees it from the gridlock that nearly all city-dwelling Americans have come to dread.

I missed the point of this thread, I've never even been in real snow...

Snow is wonderful. although by mid-February you can start getting a little tired of it.

I can honestly say that in my entire 53 years, I have seen somebody ride a motorcycle in the winter only once or twice. Yet I see dozens of bicycles on even the coldest days.

Well, I used to ride a motorcycle in the winter here. The only times I crashed were in snow. The wind sucks the heat right out of you. I used to wear these bulky insulated windproof suites. On a bicycle you are pedaling and working up a sweat where on a motorcycle you're basically just sitting there in a 60mph wind. The slightest crack in your suite at a partially closed zipper or something would quickly leak heat. Some guys had these huge heated gloves that fit over the handlebars or heated suites that you plug into the battery. On one trip to Bike Week in Daytona I would stop at McDonalds restaurants to get to the restroom hand dryer and put the nozzle down my jacket. By South Carolina I was OK but the first part of the trip down was freezing. I have the impression that a danger on the motorbike is when you are slightly under dressed at moderately cold temperatures like the high 30s. You feel like you can tough it out till you get home but your core temperature drops. A few times after arriving home from cold rides it seemed to take hours in a warm bed before I stopped feeling uncomfortably cold. I mean like 5 or 6 hours. In retrospect it seems dangerous.

I can honestly say that in my entire 53 years, I have seen somebody ride a motorcycle in the winter only once or twice. Yet I see dozens of bicycles on even the coldest days.

I have done it and don't recommend it.

Aaron:)

I feel the minimum requirements is the will to change your lifestyle. I'm not there yet. My residence in the city or at my parents' in the country I could get by without a motor vehicle, but I'm not quite to the point in my life where I want to sacrifice my activities and standard of living. Being without a full-time job for going on 12 months now, I might make the change sooner than expected or have liked.

I have a dirt bike/dual-sport I ride through the winter, unless there's frozen precipitation on the ground. I haven't tried studs, but I feel the speeds/stakes are too high on the road.

I've played off-road, and even with chunky knobs, in deep snow it doesn't want to move forward, rather the rear pendulums faster than your forward momentum. On ice, well, that's the quickest I've ever hit the ground, no reaction time at all.

The cold is not so much a problem for me, it gets down to the single digits Fahrenheit here, but being a dirt bike I avoid the highways anyhow. I don't have a special suit, but wear bulky snowboarding pants under my winter dirt pants (heavy nylon) and all-out MX boots. An ECWCS military parka over my motorcycle jacket and a long-skirted balaclava under parka hood keep the wind from my upper body. For hands, a combination of large plastic deflectors, grip heaters and thick gloves do alright for the 15-mile commute. I bought bar mitts but haven't needed, so only used them on the bicycle.

As much as I love my dirt bike, it will probably be the first thing to go when I run out of cash. I'm already trying to sell the racecar, having trouble stomaching how much money I'm losing in it. But then there won't be much need for the truck or garage full of shop equipment and tools.

I'm sick of the rat race, maybe this downturn will finally push me over the edge. Give me the will to break my addiction to motorsports. I'm single so it should be considerbly easier for me, once I make up my mind.

I say

Lots of time to get places. Then it is only a question of how much time do they want to spend in relation to where they want to live to be able to function?


The car allows living arrangements we could never dream, but negativity also follows.

Has anybody been car free in Rochester NEw York? Looks like we could be in for a move in the not-too-distant future. While Seattle/Portland would be my first choice, I may not get there right away, but from what I can dig up on Rochester, it looks like there could be some nice biking there and it looks like car-free might be manageable there. Anybody live near there?

I agree with most of this. There are areas in the interior West of North America that literally have no public transportation at all; if you don't have a car, it's tough, if not impossible, to leave town, and many towns don't really have many services to offer, especially if you object to Walmart. A few years ago, I was in Montana on a road trip, and my traveling companion and I decided to go our separate ways as the result of a heated discussion. Even though I was in a town on the interstate, I ended up having to hitchhike to another "nearby" town that was served by Greyhound, 40 miles away. There was no other bus service at all. When I arrived, I discovered that Greyhound only had one bus per day in each direction, and that I had just missed that day's bus. I ended up renting a car.

I don't think there is a social stigma attached to using public transportation in the US. In fact, I think that more and more people would use public transport if it were offered, especially if it came in the form of light rail, which frees it from the gridlock that nearly all city-dwelling Americans have come to dread.

There is in the deep south... Some of us would use public transit if provided. I do whenever I can, but it is of limited us where I live.

Aaron:)

Reading many of these posts there seems to be a secondary problem for car free, families.

I wonder how many car free people have families with children? Over the last 6 to 8 months I have discovered it would be possible for me to go for six to seven weeks without starting up the car even once. But with a wife that isn’t interested in riding down town even if it is only 2 miles away car free isn’t going to happen. So I wonder if one requirement necessary to be car free isn’t the single lifestyle? Just a thought.

There are areas in the interior West of North America that literally have no public transportation at all; if you don't have a car, it's tough, if not impossible, to leave town, and many towns don't really have many services to offer, especially if you object to Walmart.

I recently returned from a warm-weather cycling tour. In a place where money is scarce, people could get around much more easily than here. Towns were just as far apart as they are in many parts of Canada or the U.S. but there was a remarkable network of buses and trucks to provide a great regional service. If places in Latin America can provide workable transportation between communities, why can't we do it here in Canada and the United States?

I recently returned from a warm-weather cycling tour. In a place where money is scarce, people could get around much more easily than here. Towns were just as far apart as they are in many parts of Canada or the U.S. but there was a remarkable network of buses and trucks to provide a great regional service. If places in Latin America can provide workable transportation between communities, why can't we do it here in Canada and the United States?

Because a large portion of the general public (in the USA) is A) convinced that you cannot under any circumstances live without a personal car B) Taxes and public funds used to support anything other than car infrastructure is a waste of money and smacks of socialism.

Aaron:)

I recently returned from a warm-weather cycling tour. In a place where money is scarce, people could get around much more easily than here. Towns were just as far apart as they are in many parts of Canada or the U.S. but there was a remarkable network of buses and trucks to provide a great regional service. If places in Latin America can provide workable transportation between communities, why can't we do it here in Canada and the United States?

Because we have so many cars and the roads to support them. We have the infrastructure in place already making it easier to just jumb in a car and go. Also people in the US are a bit more solitary than many people I have met in other countries. We like our space and we don't like to share it. There has been an effort for the last 30 years at least to get people to car pool or van pool to reduce traffic in some of our bigger cities. California even had a state hot line that would hook you up with other people in your neighborhood so you could car pool. But if you look on any freeway going into LA in the morning I wouldn't be surprised to see 90 percent of the cars with just one person in it. They even had to lower the car pool lanes from three to two just to get people to use the car pool lane.

So here is the big surprise. The people in the US and Canada don't use other forms of transportation because they don't have to and they don't want to. when asked about it the answer you most often will get is, they don't want to give up the freedom of having their own car.

To get them to change you are fighting an uphill battle.

Just so you know I would love it if they had a light rail system worth a darn in Southern California. But Metro rail isn't big enough to serve most of the LA area.

Because we have so many cars and the roads to support them. We have the infrastructure in place already making it easier to just jumb in a car and go. Also people in the US are a bit more solitary than many people I have met in other countries. We like our space and we don't like to share it. There has been an effort for the last 30 years at least to get people to car pool or van pool to reduce traffic in some of our bigger cities. California even had a state hot line that would hook you up with other people in your neighborhood so you could car pool. But if you look on any freeway going into LA in the morning I wouldn't be surprised to see 90 percent of the cars with just one person in it. They even had to lower the car pool lanes from three to two just to get people to use the car pool lane.

So here is the big surprise. The people in the US and Canada don't use other forms of transportation because they don't have to and they don't want to. when asked about it the answer you most often will get is, they don't want to give up the freedom of having their own car.

To get them to change you are fighting an uphill battle.

Just so you know I would love it if they had a light rail system worth a darn in Southern California. But Metro rail isn't big enough to serve most of the LA area.

I would settle for bus service that ran on more than just a couple of times[/URL] on Saturdays... and that stop is about 7 miles from my house, the one that runs during the week and on weekends is 12 miles. I ride to my parents' house in town one weekend a month (on average) and even if I make the bus stops on time it is still quicker to ride the whole 19-20 miles...

Aaron:)

Because we have so many cars and the roads to support them. We have the infrastructure in place already making it easier to just jumb in a car and go. Also people in the US are a bit more solitary than many people I have met in other countries. We like our space and we don't like to share it. There has been an effort for the last 30 years at least to get people to car pool or van pool to reduce traffic in some of our bigger cities. California even had a state hot line that would hook you up with other people in your neighborhood so you could car pool. But if you look on any freeway going into LA in the morning I wouldn't be surprised to see 90 percent of the cars with just one person in it. They even had to lower the car pool lanes from three to two just to get people to use the car pool lane.

So here is the big surprise. The people in the US and Canada don't use other forms of transportation because they don't have to and they don't want to. when asked about it the answer you most often will get is, they don't want to give up the freedom of having their own car.

To get them to change you are fighting an uphill battle.

Just so you know I would love it if they had a light rail system worth a darn in Southern California. But Metro rail isn't big enough to serve most of the LA area.

"If you build it they will ride."

I'm sure that the American sense of independence has some influence on the unpopularity of public transit. But I believe availability is a much more important factor. A lot of Americans use public transit in cities that have it. Look at the subways in NYC, for example.

For another example, I live in Lansing, which is a car-crazy city to say the least. (The second auto assembly plant in the world was built here, and it's still running, if barely.) We have a good bus system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_Area_Transportation_Authority). This "car town" of medium-size population did 11 million bus trips last year. So to say American won't use public transit when it's available is clearly not true.

I don't think there is a social stigma attached to using public transportation in the US. In fact, I think that more and more people would use public transport if it were offered, especially if it came in the form of light rail, which frees it from the gridlock that nearly all city-dwelling Americans have come to dread.

Part of the issue is the design of public transportation. I know for my city, the design is spoke and hub, which is great for commuters getting to work, but if you have to go from suburb from suburb, you're going to have a 2 hr commute to go 10 miles.

I think there is a stigma with public transportation which is mostly NIMBY; they don't want poor people coming through their neighborhoods. :rolleyes:


There is another side to that coin. There are many trips that you could make by car. Places you might like to see. Restaurants you could visit. And so on. But...if you don't have a car, you tend to treat all those extreme locations as optional. You don't really need to go there. You can go to a nice closer restaurant by bicycle or foot. You can wait till the movie arrives at your door by Netflicks.

And quite often you discover pretty nice alternatives within your cycling radius.

I've found more neat places walking and biking than driving. You don't really get to explore a neighborhood in a car since you're likely on a main thoroughfare which is just pushing traffic through the town.



Reading many of these posts there seems to be a secondary problem for car free, families.

I wonder how many car free people have families with children? Over the last 6 to 8 months I have discovered it would be possible for me to go for six to seven weeks without starting up the car even once. But with a wife that isn’t interested in riding down town even if it is only 2 miles away car free isn’t going to happen. So I wonder if one requirement necessary to be car free isn’t the single lifestyle? Just a thought.

If you don't have ready access to public transportation, it can be pretty difficult to be car-free with a resistant partner. There are some people that just don't like to bike, which is fine. Car-lite is an option then. Or perhaps you can just use a service like zipcar or hourcar.

Has anybody been car free in Rochester NEw York? Looks like we could be in for a move in the not-too-distant future. While Seattle/Portland would be my first choice, I may not get there right away, but from what I can dig up on Rochester, it looks like there could be some nice biking there and it looks like car-free might be manageable there. Anybody live near there?


I think it depends on where you live, like with most places. I'm under the impression that busing has improved but I don't get there frequently enough to have an expert opinion. Where my brother lives, I would say YES because he has at least 5 restaurants, a grocery store and a cvs within a few blocks. There is someone I've seen post here that I think is from Rochester and if he doesn't respond to you, I would trying posting in the NE forum.

You might want to consider motorizing your bicycle. I was researching that option, but finally aborted the idea. I've been getting into good shape, and doing just fine riding around town without any motorized assistance.

Or you could just invest in an inexpensive electric scooter, or do what some people do, move to a better location. I would love to move to community where there are tons of cyclists out everyday, even in the freezing cold weather!

But for now, I will make do with our situation, and have been doing pretty good. I may have found someone to take my van off my hands! Will be driving the van out to their place tomorrow. Have to clean everything out of the van first. They have a good working computer to trade for my van. I hope the deal goes through .... Then I will be completely car free at last!!!

Reading many of these posts there seems to be a secondary problem for car free, families.

I wonder how many car free people have families with children? Over the last 6 to 8 months I have discovered it would be possible for me to go for six to seven weeks without starting up the car even once. But with a wife that isn’t interested in riding down town even if it is only 2 miles away car free isn’t going to happen. So I wonder if one requirement necessary to be car free isn’t the single lifestyle? Just a thought.

I'm a single father with two boys. We have two bicycles right now. I'll have a new LHT soon, so then we will each have our own bike to get around. My oldest son was very happy when I told him that I'm giving him my Electra Townie. My youngest boy will ride the old mountain bike (Mongoose Switchback), which he really likes.

We have been doing just fine, living car free. My oldest son was a bit resistant, but is getting used to it. We are able to get to the doctor, dentist, stores, church, school, friends, running errands, etc. My boys ride the bus more than I do. I try to limit bus riding to once or twice each month. Sometimes I'll take my mountain bike with me on the bus, and ride home. I can usually beat the bus by a long shot when I'm riding my bicycle!

There are many options for pulling trailers, even very large trailers! Some people even haul their surf boards, ladders, and other bulky stuff.

"If you build it they will ride."

I'm sure that the American sense of independence has some influence on the unpopularity of public transit. But I believe availability is a much more important factor. A lot of Americans use public transit in cities that have it. Look at the subways in NYC, for example.

For another example, I live in Lansing, which is a car-crazy city to say the least. (The second auto assembly plant in the world was built here, and it's still running, if barely.) We have a good bus system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_Area_Transportation_Authority). This "car town" of medium-size population did 11 million bus trips last year. So to say American won't use public transit when it's available is clearly not true.

I said the don't because they don't have to or want to. Not that they won't. Come to orange county sometime and look at public transportation and who rides our busses. I am sure they a lot of bus trips there as well. My Sister was a OCTA bus driver so I do know a bit about the system. Guess how many times in 30 years she took the bus to work? She worked for the company mind you. I'll give you a hint. It is a binary number.

I know how you hate me posting sites to verify my contentions but I will give you a snipit of why so many people living in our area resist being car free and public transportation.

"One troubling aspect about recent data is the continued disparity in commute time for various modes of transportation. In Southern California, people who drive to work have an average commute time of 28 minutes, while bus riders experience commute averages of about 46 minutes (see Maps 3 and 4 for spatial variation, noting the length of time it takes for most residents of Southern California to travel to work). Given that the auto-dependent population reported personal incomes three times those of bus riders, the underlying socioeconomic factors make the differences in commuting even worse. The worst commute times appear in low-income inner city neighborhoods and job-poor suburbs. For example, in Los Angeles County, the worst average commute times were experienced by people living in Palmdale and Lancaster and areas west of downtown LA. "

I didn't write the report by the way. I am just point it out.

I said the don't because they don't have to or want to. Not that they won't. Come to orange county sometime and look at public transportation and who rides our busses. I am sure they a lot of bus trips there as well. My Sister was a OCTA bus driver so I do know a bit about the system. Guess how many times in 30 years she took the bus to work? She worked for the company mind you. I'll give you a hint. It is a binary number.

I know how you hate me posting sites to verify my contentions but I will give you a snipit of why so many people living in our area resist being car free and public transportation.

"One troubling aspect about recent data is the continued disparity in commute time for various modes of transportation. In Southern California, people who drive to work have an average commute time of 28 minutes, while bus riders experience commute averages of about 46 minutes (see Maps 3 and 4 for spatial variation, noting the length of time it takes for most residents of Southern California to travel to work). Given that the auto-dependent population reported personal incomes three times those of bus riders, the underlying socioeconomic factors make the differences in commuting even worse. The worst commute times appear in low-income inner city neighborhoods and job-poor suburbs. For example, in Los Angeles County, the worst average commute times were experienced by people living in Palmdale and Lancaster and areas west of downtown LA. "

I didn't write the report by the way. I am just point it out.

The report seems to bolster what I said. Of course many people who can afford it are going to drive rather than take public transit, if driving is faster and more convenient, and only a little more expensive. "If you build it" refers to building good public transit, or transit that's competitive with autos. Not the rinky-dink bus lines that pass for transit in LA and most other American cities.

There is no reason other than economic prioirities that commuting by bus or train is slower than commuting by car.

Well, I used to ride a motorcycle in the winter here. The only times I crashed were in snow. The wind sucks the heat right out of you...You feel like you can tough it out till you get home but your core temperature drops. A few times after arriving home from cold rides it seemed to take hours in a warm bed before I stopped feeling uncomfortably cold. I mean like 5 or 6 hours. In retrospect it seems dangerous.

I wrote a novella in college. It started out with the statement that the coldest place in the world is on top of a motorcycle. :)

Cause wherever you are, ride a motorcycle there and it's going to be colder. One time, I rode my motorcycle home from my girlfriend's and when I awoke in the morning, my knees were still ice cold to the touch.