Advocacy & Safety - December's snow remedy wreaking havoc on cyclists

Didn't know whether to post this here of in Winter Cycling.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008651740_bike21m.html

In Seattle, we don't get a lot of snow, and the storm we had in December dropped the most snow I have can remember in 16 years of living here.
Apparently the dot decided to lay down gravel for traction in the snow, after they packed it into sheet ice (http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/27/seattles-plow-crews-not-trying-to-clear-snow-from-roads-by-desi/) which was fine while there was snow on the ground, but after it meted all the gravel was left on the road way. On my commute the bike lanes had a solid layer of sand on them immediately after the storm, but rain and traffic have cleared it out a bit. I noticed however, that one part of my commute featured about 20 feet of large gravel chunks that was basically like riding on a gravel trail, which have since diminished to 20 feet of small gravel patches.
The article states that the dot is working on clearing the crap out of the road, but the only improvement I've seen so far is directly related to traffic and rain.

Gravel? That's strange. Maybe the more traditional salt/sand was not available and/or cost efective for a city that does not get much snow?

You just described my driving conditions 6 months per year. Suck it up.

they've been doing that around here. Price of salt is way up. As a motorist I approve. As a cyclist, it does seem to be pushed off the road fairly fast. Bike lanes are a good place for it to collect though.

I would rather see the sand/gravel mix versus the ungodly amounts of "salt" that get used in some parts of the country. However it seems that they would get their collective arses in gear and use a sweeper on the bike lanes ASAP. But the town I live near doesn't even own a street sweeper (don't have bike lanes either, but that is another issue)

Aaron:)

Group rides in winter always seem to feature copping a mouthful of salty road spray from the moron in front who doesn't have a mudflap.

Gravel? That's strange. Maybe the more traditional salt/sand was not available and/or cost efective for a city that does not get much snow?

ahh, you missed the controversy. The rest of WA state used salt on their roads. The Seattle mayor decided not to use salt because it would "kill the fish". Never mind that most of the runoff would be going into puget sound which, last time I checked, was pretty salty. Even the most die-hard environmentalists rolled their eyes at that statement.

The no salt policy was a mess. All the WA state controlled roads where they did use salt were 100% free of snow/ice. Seattle streets became a rutted mess of layered ice/gravel. The city was pretty much shut down for a few days.

Interestingly enough, we got another small amount of snow around Jan 2nd. And magically seattle changed their policy and used salt.

Places that don't get a lot of cold and snow have a hard time dealing with it. Sometimes, of course, it's because they're not equiped to deal with it (no plows, or not enough of them, for example). Other times, it's because they don't know how to deal with it.

Those of us who live in, or at least grew up in, the snowy North know from experience that you should start plowing and shoveling as soon as the snow starts falling. It's easier to do it "now", rather than having to deal with ice later. And you don't SUSPEND alternate-side parking rules; you enforce them more vigorously, so you can clear the streets properly.

And also, don't use too much salt. You don't need as much as you think. If there's still rock salt on the street or sidewalk after the snow is gone, you used too much.

And you can often avoid using salt entirely, by using sand or cinders instead.

And (most relevant to this post), when it's all done, you have to go sweep up the mess (undisolved rock salt, sand, cinders, etc). In Upstate NY where I grew up, they use a big roller brush attached to a tractor, to sweep it all into the ditch, or to sweep it into piles so it can be picked up (and used next time, maybe).

they used to use coal where I grew up. That stuff is actually fairly good.

Salt is not commonly used west of the Cascades in Ecotopia (I'm in the Portland area). The grit they throw down isn't quite sand and not quite gravel. They even recycle it; sweeping it up, washing it out, and then storing it for the next use.

You have my sympathy for the riding conditions. Some of my bike routes have as much as a quarter inch of the stuff, as the motor vehicles have blown it out of their lanes into the bike lanes. And the transportation officials obviously don't see that there's a problem, since their roads are cleared out now.

Meanwhile my 19 yo daughter gets honked at because she's riding in the motor lane, since the bike lane is no longer "practicable." :(

I fractured a hand in two places as a child because of Washington State doing that @#%$, in Gig Harbor. It was after spring breakup and I was riding my bike, the road went down a hill and then turned at the bottom; when I tried to turn, it was like walking on marbles and the bike flew out from under me. I am heartily annoyed that they still think that scattering round pebbles on the ice is a good idea; it makes me wish that I had had much more litigious parents.

The same Seattle mayor that wants federal money to install solar panels throughout Seattle.

To the man from Cambridge who moaned about a mouthful of salty spray flung up by a rider with no mudflap - you should be really grateful that we use salt in the UK, and not the urea crystals used in some parts of Europe. The urea crystals come from animal urine - it is less corrosive than salt, so I understand.

And (most relevant to this post), when it's all done, you have to go sweep up the mess (undisolved rock salt, sand, cinders, etc). In Upstate NY where I grew up, they use a big roller brush attached to a tractor, to sweep it all into the ditch, or to sweep it into piles so it can be picked up (and used next time, maybe).

More likely they sweep it into the bike lanes.

To the man from Cambridge who moaned about a mouthful of salty spray flung up by a rider with no mudflap - you should be really grateful that we use salt in the UK, and not the urea crystals used in some parts of Europe. The urea crystals come from animal urine - it is less corrosive than salt, so I understand.

Less corrosive, good. But does it taste better?

And what about the town (in Iowa, I believe) that got a bargain price on garlic salt and used it on the roads. It worked well on the ice, but where the spray got in the cars it left that pungent aroma. I heard that some cagers were forced to sell their cars because the stench was so bad.

True story. :lol:

There are no bike lanes in Upstate NY (that I'm aware of).

OK, maybe a few. Perched right on the lip of the ditch.



More likely they sweep it into the bike lanes.

To the genius who implied that all the salt would wash into the bay, did you not happen to notice all of the fresh water creeks, rivers, and lakes around the rest of the city that doesn't sit on Elliot Bay? Let alone the damage to roadside vegetation and animal life.

The same Seattle mayor that wants federal money to install solar panels throughout Seattle.

and your point is?



































Oh, as usual, you don't have a point!

:roflmao:

Another automobile subsidy. Kill the sand.

They use gravel where I live in OR (Klamath Basin - ice and snow), but they must use it more sparingly. A little gravel on the road shoulders here and there hasn't been any problem, nor has cycling in the ice and snow with regular MTB tires.

I have to add that salt is a horrible idea, if you look at both its long term effect on the landscape (essentially a slow poison to vegetation) and its short term effect on both cars and your bike. I spent a little time in Detroit in the early 90's where they salted up a storm, and recall being amazed at how few older cars there were, and at seeing the "new models" with rust-through on the body and every type of frozen-up and corroded mechanical nightmare underneath,