Foo - Neighbors refuse to share in snow shoveling.

So my wife and I are tenants in a 2 family. Our lease (and our neighbors lease) states that we are responsible for sharing the shoveling of the driveway we share and the sidewalk and front and back steps. Sounds simple, right? Well, this year, our upstairs neighbors have decided not to shovel. They've given us some cockamimie story in passing that the wife has a bad back and the husband a pulled shoulder (lets just say we doubt their story). We had a few heavy snowstorms and my wife shoveled 3 days in a row while they peeked from the windows every once in a while (I was away travelling). The next snowstorm I was home so I waited a bit after the storm to see whether they would do anything. When they didn't, I went out and shovelled the driveway (large driveway), sidewalk and front and back steps.

I called the landlord and complained and he said that he would talk to them diplomatically. It seems that he doesn't want to rock the boat. The next snowstorm, I didn't do anything and after some time they both came out and shovelled (apparently, their physical ills miraculously dissapeared).

The next snow, I calculated it was their turn (We'd shovelled at least 3-4 times and they had only done the one). They didn't do anything and on the third day when one of them had to go somewhere (it was a long weekend), she came down and tried to drive over the snow and got stuck on the huge pile of snow at the entrance to the driveway. So she got the shovel, dug herself out and then went on her merry way, leaving everything untouched. So I got frustrated, came out and shoveled the driveway but left the sidewalk and front steps unshoveled. So its been some time and the sidewalk is still covered in snow. I don't want to be 'that house' that doesn't shovel its sidewalks so I may just shovel it. The next step is to have a sit down with them and have a talk. However, I don't have much hope for any progress.

The thing is, there are people around who will shovel everyting for $30. I feel that if they are incapable of shoveling, at least hire someone for their turns or have the decency to talk to us rather than mumble some lame excuse as you rush to your car that you can now drive after my wife has just shovelled for 4 hours. Or get their grandniece who is always around (stays over some nights and even comes to do her laundry) who is in her twenties do some shoveling. This is a couple I am guessing in their late forties early fifties who have no disabilities so this attitude dumbfounds us.

So, if this meeting produces nothing, and it seems our landlord is unwilling to do anything (despite the fact that their lease obligates them to share the shoveling), what are our options besides moving?
We love our apartment, our landlord, apart from this issue, has been great. We don't want to be 'that house' but at the same time I resent our neighbors shirking their responsibilities and living off the sweat of our labor.

advise your neighbor that you will henceforth have someone shovel, pay the $30, then bill the neighbor (don't forget to include a copy of the lease or pertinent portion, or written statement from the landlord)?

(i feel for you; no reason to shirk one's duty and be a good neighbor)

Does the unit have a 2 car garage (you park on one side, they on the other)? If so, shovel your half of the driveway.

Shovel every other stair.
Clear 3' of sidewalk, then leave 3' unshovelled; repeat pattern down the whole walkway.

Does the unit have a 2 car garage (you park on one side, they on the other)? If so, shovel your half of the driveway.

Shovel every other stair.
Clear 3' of sidewalk, then leave 3' unshovelled; repeat pattern down the whole walkway.
No, thought about that. It has side by side parking but the entrance to the driveway is single lane. So if I want to get out I have to essentially shovel the whole driveway.

I like the shovel every other stair idea :D

Way to get wound up over trivial nonsense.

Quit being a baby, shovel the snow, and bask in the smug warmth of being right.

advise your neighbor that you will henceforth have someone shovel, pay the $30, then bill the neighbor (don't forget to include a copy of the lease or pertinent portion, or written statement from the landlord)?

(i feel for you; no reason to shirk one's duty and be a good neighbor)
The problem is that the landlord is being wishy-washy and that would leave me on questionable legal ground. I am searching city ordinances as we speak to see what it states.

Way to get wound up over trivial nonsense.

Quit being a baby, shovel the snow, and bask in the smug warmth of being right.

And way to waste my time. I asked a valid question, if you don't have a productive answer, then kindly refrain from responding.

does the unit have a 2 car garage (you park on one side, they on the other)? If so, shovel your half of the driveway.

Shovel every other stair.
Clear 3' of sidewalk, then leave 3' unshovelled; repeat pattern down the whole walkway.

+1.

+1.
Won't work, see previous response.

But even then, even though I rarely use the front steps and sidewalk it is an abrogation of responsibility and good neighborliness to leave pedestrians to fend for themselves in knee high snow.

See if you can pick up a snowblower for cheap on CL, and become "that guy". The one who fires up the snowblower at 5am, even on the weekend.

See if you can pick up a snowblower for cheap on CL, and become "that guy". The one who fires up the snowblower at 5am, even on the weekend.

:roflmao2::roflmao2::thumb:

See if you can pick up a snowblower for cheap on CL, and become "that guy". The one who fires up the snowblower at 5am, even on the weekend.

:lol::lol::lol:
Just might consider that. How much does a good snow-blower cost?

$100-$2000. 'bout the price of a bike.

Ask the landlord to raise their rent, and to give it to you for shovelling......

By the way, I shovel 7 older neighbors drives and walks........ just because they have always been good neighbors, and are unable to do it themselves. I'm 62.

This snow stuff is a pain in the neck for you guys.....

The snow blower should be properly fitted with glass-packs.

http://www.jcwhitney.com/wcsstore/jcwhitney/images/imagecache/G_16458G_SW_1.gif

See if you can pick up a snowblower for cheap on CL, and become "that guy". The one who fires up the snowblower at 5am, even on the weekend.

OMG YES! But make it 4 AM! and take you time! Be sure to take plenty of breaks, and be sure to park the Snow Blower by their window and DO NOT shut it off! PLEASE post a link with a video if you do this! :roflmao2: This is great! :thumb:CliftonGK1:thumb:

So my wife and I are tenants in a 2 family. Our lease (and our neighbors lease) states that we are responsible for sharing the shoveling of the driveway we share and the sidewalk and front and back steps. Sounds simple, right? Well, this year, our upstairs neighbors have decided not to shovel. They've given us some cockamimie story in passing that the wife has a bad back and the husband a pulled shoulder (lets just say we doubt their story).
Tell them that's fine and that you will handle their half of the duties, and then provide them your hourly rate.

your neighbours suck :(

how about shovelling just one shoulder's width and just the tracks width for the cars?

Won't work, see previous response.

But even then, even though I rarely use the front steps and sidewalk it is an abrogation of responsibility and good neighborliness to leave pedestrians to fend for themselves in knee high snow.

Some folks don't abide by the social contract.

Vengeance is your only recourse.

but if you do choose the path of vengeance, you must say carefully,

"No...no, you can't get away...from hell's heart, I stab at thee...for hate's sake, I spit my last breath...at thee..."

or it doesn't count.

Ask the landlord to raise their rent, and to give it to you for shovelling......

By the way, I shovel 7 older neighbors drives and walks........ just because they have always been good neighbors, and are unable to do it themselves. I'm 62.
Hi Wanderer

I did that with some previous neighbors because they were good neighbors and couldn't do it.

I guess what riles me is feeling that we are being taken advantage of. Also, when we moved in they did something really shady that set the tone.

Our landlord bought brand new washer/dryer for us. They also had an older washer and dryer of a different make/model. So I used what I thought was our new washer and they left a nasty note on it stating that 'This washer belongs to us, don't use it etc etc'. So I begun using the older washer. It didn't make sense but I said 'hey landlord must have made a mistake'

Later, I raised it with the landlord who was very surprised and stated that no, the new washer/dryer (same model) were ours. So when we confronted the neighbors they said that at some point they had bought the same exact washer and they though it was the same one but that their son must have taken it out of the basement (their story made absolutely no sense).

And then there's their noisy grandniece who clomps around, has her friends over and throws noisy parties.

So essentially, I guess if this was a neighbor whom I respected and liked and who respected us this wouldn't be such an issue. At the end of the day, its just physical labor and we are lucky to be healthy and able to do it.

This snow stuff is a pain in the neck for you guys.....
Yeah, tell me about it.

Let me guess, you're somewhere where it doesn't snow.

bastid:p I envy you.

Yeah, at some point a move West to warmer climes is mandated.

clearly they are picking for a fight. maybe they have an -ism issue.

Shovel all the snow behind, around, and on top of their car.

Shovel all the snow into their car.

fify

clearly they are picking for a fight. maybe they have an -ism issue.

I doubt it, unless its an ass****ism issue.

Shovel all the snow behind, around, and on top of their car.

Hmmm, that's tempting, though I think that would just be escalating issues.

And way to waste my time. I asked a valid question, if you don't have a productive answer, then kindly refrain from responding.
I gave you a valid answer: suck it up.

If you don't like it, maybe you should refrain from posting questions in public forums.

I gave you a valid answer: suck it up.

If you don't like it, maybe you should refrain from posting questions in public forums.
Hey dude, I don't know what you problem is. Stop pissing on my thread and go back under your bridge.

Don't park in the driveway, but on the street and clear a path from your backdoor to your car.

I gave you a valid answer: suck it up.

If you don't like it, maybe you should refrain from posting questions in public forums.
Oh, just noticed your join date of Jan 1 2009 and a non-paying member to boot. So your garden variety troll with nothing to offer. Putting you on ignore.

Don't park in the driveway, but on the street and clear a path from your backdoor to your car.
Ah, wish we could do this. We have 2 cars and the city I live in allows no overnight street parking (yes, bizarre).

There might be something in city ordinances. For example, if the non-shoveled sidewalk is a fineable offense (it is in Boston proper, I live in an outlying city), I suspect the fine goes to the landlord. If my landlord gets a fine, I doubt he will still be so blase about the whole thing.

Oh, just noticed your join date of Jan 1 2009 and a non-paying member to boot. So your garden variety troll with nothing to offer. Putting you on ignore.
So any noob who disagrees with you online is a troll?

The problem is that the landlord is being wishy-washy and that would leave me on questionable legal ground. I am searching city ordinances as we speak to see what it states.

You're right, you would be on questionable ground. And realistically speaking, you'd never see that $30 again, even if you were on rock solid legal ground. It's not enough to sue over. I think you're going to have to sit down with them and have a "come to Jesus" talk. Don't know if it'll help, but it can't hurt.

So any noob who disagrees with you online is a troll?

No but anyone who jumps into a serious discussion with a snarky pointless response AND is a newbie AND a non-paying member has a high probability of being a troll or an attention *****. But that's just my opinion.

Way to get wound up over trivial nonsense.

Quit being a baby, shovel the snow, and bask in the smug warmth of being right.

Hey, baisikeli! I think I just found your neighbor!

You're right, you would be on questionable ground. And realistically speaking, you'd never see that $30 again, even if you were on rock solid legal ground. It's not enough to sue over. I think you're going to have to sit down with them and have a "come to Jesus" talk. Don't know if it'll help, but it can't hurt.
I hope it helps. I am a non-confrontational kind of guy so maybe I should have dealt with this as soon as I came back from traveling.

I'll wait for the next snow storm (yes, I know I'm procrastinating :) ). If they don't shovel then we'll have the talk. If that fails I'll escalate again to the landlord.

Hey, baisikeli! I think I just found your neighbor!
You know, I thought that too but the name doesn't match:lol:

No but anyone who jumps into a serious discussion with a snarky pointless response AND is a newbie AND a non-paying member has a high probability of being a troll or an attention *****. But that's just my opinion.
Snarky, maybe, but my response wasn't a troll.

Another possible suggestion: Call around to various business that do snow removal and get a $/hr quote for their services. Record the amount of time it takes you to remove the snow from the driveway throughout the winter. Come spring, take your neighbor to small claims court for half the cost of your labor.

Snarky, maybe, but my response wasn't a troll.

Another possible suggestion: Call around to various business that do snow removal and get a $/hr quote for their services. Record the amount of time it takes you to remove the snow from the driveway throughout the winter. Come spring, take your neighbor to small claims court for half the cost of your labor.
Thanks for the suggestion, but its risky. I could end up losing in court and I also don't know whether I want to take it that far. What I might do is that if our conversation with them has no effect I'm going to strongly 'suggest' to the landlord that every 2nd snowstorm I get the shoveling done for $30-$50 (there is someone around here who will do it for that) and deduct that amount from our rent. That way, we'll shovel when its our turn and when its their turn we'll call the shoveling service (though of course its a pain to make the call).
That way, we're not getting screwed and the landlord will be essentially paying for his inability or unwillingness to enforce the terms of the lease.

I didn't read all messages closely, so please excuse me if I cover some of the same ground as others.

I don't think you have an enforceable claim against the neighbor for 1/2 the value of clearing the snow unless you have made arrangements in advance (although otherwise the small claims sounds good, and just the threat may be enough to get payment).

And even though the obligation is in the lease, there is one major aspect that seems to be missing...

Between the two tenants, you should work it out between you how to divide the work. It could be as simple as you doing the drive, and them doing the walk and stairs, or alternating storms, or whatever method you choose to divide the work. But frankly, it seems that there is no agreement between you now. Just a vague knowledge that you are both responsible.

It does sound like you have done more than your share, but some people have a psychological make-up that until their responsibilities are clearly lined up they will not do anything.

Your neighbor could have now realized that they should do the clearing for every other storm, and are just ignoring (whether consciously or not) the first couple of storms that you did. So, from this point forward things might be fine except for the extra work you and your wife did up front... but unless you talk with your neighbor, you are taking a risk as to whether they actually realize this or not.

Of course, I may have missed, and your landlord may have specified that each neighbor is responsible for every other storm...

In any case, if the decision is for each tenant to shovel for alternating storms I would suggest investing in a cheap bright orange snow shovel to use as a token to set on the porch of the tenant responsible for the shoveling, especially for those that might forget. ;)

So any noob who disagrees with you online is a troll?

I think the OP's point was "non paying" noob who disagrees with him. Just sayin'.

Way to get wound up over trivial nonsense.

Quit being a baby, shovel the snow, and bask in the smug warmth of being right.

JPallino's phraseology may lack tact, but the underlying substance of it is well worth thinking about. Having the "come to Jesus" meeting and trying to work through the landlord are good ideas and worth trying. And there may even be an ordinance that addresses your situation (although the odds of it actually being enforceable in the real world are not likely), so that may be worth doing. But we all know that the likely outcome is that none of this will induce the deadbeats to pull their weight. The history you describe has already led you to conclude (correctly, IMHO) that this will be an ongoing problem.

That means you have a choice to make: what is more important to you; getting the damn snow out of the way, or continuing to wage what is almost certainly a losing battle with your neighbors. JPallino is suggesting (somewhat inartfully) a valid response to that question; just shovel the snow. Implicit in this is the observation that it simply may not be worth the energy you are putting into this fight.

It can be extremely hard to let go of the lack of common courtesy and common decency in others. It can be especially hard when it means extra work or inconvenience for oneself. But is this really worth the time and aggravation you are putting into this? Reasonable people can disagree about the answer to that question, but the question itself is certainly a reasonable one and worth some serious thought on your part.

Having said all that, I hope your a-hole neighbors slip on some of the snow and ice that didn't get shovelled because you and your wife were out of town and they couldn't be bothered.

I didn't read the whole thread. Maybe someone suggested this already. However, shovel the driveway each time, however send a bill to the Landlord for every second time you shovelled. Do not send it to the neighbor. On the bill, refer to the signed contract requiring a shared responsibility. It is not your responsibility to enforce the agreement with the neighbor, it's your landlord's responsibility.

Perhaps the landlord's inaction would be reversed if he started to see a financial impact to himself.

Your other option is to buy your own place. Not sure how easy it is to get credit right now in the States, however the prices are certainly at an all time low. Just a thought.

Snarky, maybe, but my response wasn't a troll.

Another possible suggestion: Call around to various business that do snow removal and get a $/hr quote for their services. Record the amount of time it takes you to remove the snow from the driveway throughout the winter. Come spring, take your neighbor to small claims court for half the cost of your labor.

That won't work. His contract is with the landlord, not the neighbor. He could however take the landlord to small claims court ... as long as he's been advising the landlord on a regular basis on the frequency of his shovelling. I still think he should simply bill the landlord for the shovelling services.

Have you talked to them about it? Just offering suggestions here:

1: Maybe they are shy? (I am serious)
2: I have a bad back but you would never know. I do shovel but I can't walk for a week afterwards.
3: Maybe you and your wife shovel before they get a chance? Maybe they are busy with kids? If you run out there as it is still snowing, maybe they would prefer to wait unti it's done snowing.

I'm inclined to agree with Jpallino, I share about half of my driveway with the guy next door, he's a lazy dude that hasn't worked basically since I bought my house and that was seven years ago. He's home all day long when it snows and I work for a living, Do I get more than alittle pissed off when I get home from work and then have to shovel? yes! But I grab the shovel and have at it!

I'm just not going to get in a pissin' match with this guy..not worth the effort, besides I don't mind being outdoors. I've even seem the guy lookin' out the window and I just give him a wave.

I think ya kinda flew off the handle at Jpallino's response, hell he's just bein' honest and it is the net..so grab that scoop my freind...you'll feel better for it when push comes to shovel!

Snow is such a rare thing here that shoveling it is seen as fun. Last time it snowed, my boys and I and a few neighbors formed a roving bad of shovelers and walked the street clearing walks and drives. Only in Texas.

http://www.judgejudy.com/#/submityourcase

..
Between the two tenants, you should work it out between you how to divide the work. It could be as simple as you doing the drive, and them doing the walk and stairs, or alternating storms, or whatever method you choose to divide the work. But frankly, it seems that there is no agreement between you now. Just a vague knowledge that you are both responsible....
That's the thing. We had talked about it last year. Our agreement was that we would alternate every snowstorm and when it was ones turn one was obligated to do the driveway, sidewalk, front steps, back steps and front porch. This is the agreement we used last winter and it worked fine (somewhat, they definitely squirreled out once or twice). This year, nada, we had 4 snowstorms and we shoveled 3-4 times and they didn't shovel a single time.

I would love it if we could split responsibilities evenly but we can't do that. Even though the driveway is enormous the entrance is 1 car width. So you either shovel it or you don't, you can't just shovel half of it.