Living Car Free - Put your money where your mouth is--What's the dollar value of carfree/carlite?

Let's say you were unemployed and received two job offers:

--Job A pays more, but requires you to drive a car that you own to work.

--Job B pays less, but is welcoming and affirming of carfree people and bicycle commuters.
Which job would you take, if all else was equal? In dollars (or your country's currency), how much more would Job A have to pay for you to accept it? What's the reasoning behind your answer?

Right now I think I'll just try to hang on to the one I've got. :)

In your hypothetical scenario, I'd probably go with job B. If they're nicer to bike commuters, they're probably nicer in other ways too.

Job B.

Well seeing how I am doing the same job now that I did with a car, the difference straight up job to job is about $12k per year in favor of the bicycle.

I am not going back to driving a car though, ever, my health is priceless.

In a way I already made this choice. My last job had a car commute that was between 45 and 75 minutes long each way (depending on traffic). I just hated it! At the time I blamed the length of the commute for consuming my day.

Now I have a 45-75 minute commute on bike or bus. I look forward to it and dread the days I have to take my car. Looks like it was driving the car that I hated. Not surprising, these days my encounters with jerk drivers are about once a week. When I was driving 35 miles thru the city it was almost every day.

I don't know about job, but I may be moving back with my parents for my last few years of University. My sister will be away for her first year, so her car will be available. They are worried about car use over the summer, so they are/will "force" me into getting another car. There is no way I can bike the complete distance from their place to work/class (20 miles + one way, mostly freeway) so I will take the bike to a local park with trail access and bike over to the express bus stop 2 miles away and take the bus in the morning and enjoy the longish (10-12 miles or less depending on where I start) ride back most days. Not ideal, but it may help me put enough money in the bank for a nice long bike tour when I graduate.

Depends on the pay difference and reasoning for being required to drive. Say if you just need a car to drive around while you are at work you could own a car that you leave at work and still bike there.

To get me interested in job A the pay difference would have to be about 2,000 dollars per year. Right now I am car lite and pay 2500 dollars per year for insurance gas and repairs (which will go up as the car gets older). Including purchase price it comes out to about 4K per year. A second car would not cost as much because it is much cheaper per car to insure 2 cars.

So the financial marker is between 2-4K per year. I am also not including bike expenses in this calculation. I would buy most of it anyway and I spend very little on the extra wear and tear and equipment I need for commuting vs recreation.

Job B.

How much more would they have to pay to make you take Job A?

I'd take B.

I'm already car free, there you go.
As to how much they would have to pay me to take A?

+car
+insurance
+gas
+maintenance
+15k more a year
+at least one month off a year for touring/riding/screwing around-whatever.

That help any?

Let's say you were unemployed and received two job offers:

Well, honestly, whether I could bike or not wouldn't enter the calculation at all.

The balance would be what did I do at the job vs the money. And what I get to do at the job will win every time. Two of my best jobs were ones that were too far to comfortably bicycle commute all the time. The third best one had a bike commute that went right through the center of a nature preserve. Woohoo!

I'd like to say I would take job "B", but maybe not. After all, like everyone else, my convictions do have a price. I think I would seriously consider job "A" if I were to be bringing home at least an additional $1500 a month. Of course there are other considerations, too. Such as tangible and intangible benefits and fringe benefits.

if $$$ was the top priority, i'd go with A. (or to re-phrase that, if i were broke)

but it ain't, so i'll go with B. and you know they'd be cooler people anyway. who wants to work somewhere that requires you to drive in? not i.

I'd take B.

I'm already car free, there you go.
As to how much they would have to pay me to take A?

+car
+insurance
+gas
+maintenance
+15k more a year
+at least one month off a year for touring/riding/screwing around-whatever.

That help any?

Finally somebody who will put a dollar amount on it. $15,000 plus expenses.

Not bad!

Well, I'll be quiting my job (for which I need a vehicle), selling my car and going on a long bike tour until I find a job I really enjoy. I'm anticipating that I may earn ~20k less a year once I find something I enjoy. Biking to work will be a part of that. 20k may seem like a lot but I really don't like my current job.

Well, honestly, whether I could bike or not wouldn't enter the calculation at all.

The balance would be what did I do at the job vs the money. And what I get to do at the job will win every time. Two of my best jobs were ones that were too far to comfortably bicycle commute all the time. The third best one had a bike commute that went right through the center of a nature preserve. Woohoo!

Ah but I sais all else was equal--the two jobs are equally fun, equivalent commutes, and so on. How much would they have to pay you to take Job A?

All other things being equal? Assume they're in the same building, etc. I'd have to have $10,000/year more for A. $4000 for the cost of vehicle operation, $6000 for telling me how I can/can't get to work.

Well I used to have a 35 mile round trip bike commute that I never minded too much. That would mean that if I had to drive a car to get to job A then it would have to be in the area of 50 miles or so round trip AND not link to public transit in anyway to make it bike able. So that would mean that I would be looking at loosing about 1-2 hours a day by having to drive in rush hour traffic which is also very dangerous in terms of car accidents, breathing in the stop and go traffic, stress, and not being able to cycle as much as I do. I would think that Job A would have to pay me at least twice as much as Job B, even then I would have to think about it.... I would consider moving closer to Job A so I could bike but then I would be somewhere that apparently has no mass transit which would be lame... Job B for me!

Job A would require that I buy a car (wife and I share hers), so I'd have to make enough extra money at Job A to cover all the costs of owning that car (insurance, fuel, depreciation, repairs, etc). This car would be used almost exclusively for commuting--say 40 km round trip, or 10000 km/year. Reimbursement rates are typically $0.40/km, so that's $4000/year (and I would probably buy an older compact, so that's actually a realistic number). So I'd probably need about $6000 extra gross income to pay for the car.

If I wanted to maintain the amount of biking I would do by commuting to Job B, without cutting back on *other* recreation activities, I'd have to contract out a few home duties like lawn mowing, snow shoveling, renovating, etc. If I need to pay an average of $15/hour to buy back 5 hours/week (tradesmen charge way more than that, but take a lot less time than I would to complete the same amount of work), that's $75/week, or $3900/year, or again about another $6000 gross.

So, to have as much money, bike time, and leisure time as I would with Job B, Job A would have to pay $12000/year more.

In reality, I'd probably take Job A at $8000/year extra. I would ride the bike on weekends or after work, keep doing my home duties, have an extra $2000/year for bike schwag, and just have to spend 5 less hours/week on Bike Forums. :o

Ah but I sais all else was equal--the two jobs are equally fun, equivalent commutes, and so on. How much would they have to pay you to take Job A?

What employers REQUIRE the employee to drive to the place of work, if a motor vehicle isn't required to perform the job?

Let's say you were unemployed and received two job offers:

--Job A pays more, but requires you to drive a car that you own to work.

--Job B pays less, but is welcoming and affirming of carfree people and bicycle commuters.
Which job would you take, if all else was equal? In dollars (or your country's currency), how much more would Job A have to pay for you to accept it? What's the reasoning behind your answer?

When you get to be an older geezer like I am one thing you don't want to do is look back at your
life to see you sold it for money.

Instead look back at your kids faces 'cause you were home to see them and your wife's.
Look back that you had a job that paid just ok but you enjoyed more.
Look back that you slept well at night 'cause you were content with your life of.....enough.

As you can tell this choice for me is a no brainer......choose the one I would enjoy most that gave me
time to live my life.

No job has made a hypocrite of me yet, why start now?

What employers REQUIRE the employee to drive to the place of work, if a motor vehicle isn't required to perform the job?

It's a hypothetical situation. So you can think about what being carfree or carlight means to you in dollar terms.

If you want to.

But you probably don't.

What employers REQUIRE the employee to drive to the place of work, if a motor vehicle isn't required to perform the job?

My experience is if the employer is very rigid in what they require -- particularly requiring something completely ridiculous -- I'm usually better off avoiding the situation. I'd probably accept the job at higher pay, then discover that it was a sweat job and quit...

I don't see money as a big determining factor in these situations. I think the better jobs-- situations more accepting of the employee's individualism -- pay better.

I would go with job A

I would require at least a hundred grand a year and only work 4 days a week. (fantasy land)
then the three days I didn't work I would go with Job B

Then I only need to work about 3 years quit my job and then go on a very long tour for about five to ten years.

I'd say B.
Reminds me of something I read recently.
"Let's say you were unemployed and received two job offers:
--Job A pays more, and allows you to drive to work.

--Job B pays so little, one is forced to ride a bicycle to work, and is less welcoming and affirming of the Single Driver Lifestyle."

Did you cross-post this in HummerForums?
Seriously, it's been so long since I've been a regular driver or passenger in a car, I now get nauseous if I'm ever in one. Seems I'm becoming 'car-tose' intolerant. I'd need 50G for A.

It's a hypothetical situation. So you can think about what being carfree or carlight means to you in dollar terms.

If you want to.

But you probably don't.

I prefer to think about hypothetical jobs that REQUIRE me to eat free pizza and drink free beer all day and allow me to do it from home and force me to ride my bike while on the clock. I think those job REQUIREMENTS are as common as your hypothetical situation.

And yeah, I might consider a pay cut for such a job.

No job has made a hypocrite of me yet, why start now?

I've never been ideological about shunning the automobile, so I court no danger of hypocrisy.

For me, a $20,000 per year difference in pay could persuade me to take up the car.

Bikes at Work (http://www.bikesatwork.com/carfree/cost-of-car-ownership.html) says that the average person pays 17 per cent of his/her income for a car. So I'd need 17 percent more for the car job, just to cover expenses.

Then I'd add $10,000 for the inevitable hassles of working for somebody who thought he could tell me how to live my life.

Bikes at Work (http://www.bikesatwork.com/carfree/cost-of-car-ownership.html) says that the average person pays 17 per cent of his/her income for a car. So I'd need 17 percent more for the car job, just to cover expenses.

Then I'd add $10,000 for the inevitable hassles of working for somebody who thought he could tell me how to live my life.

I wonder were Bikes at work got their numbers? I read in "Living well without owning a car" that the average was closer to 1/3 of their income. I think that he got his numbers for AAA but I am not 100% sure.

The less you make the greater the percentage of your income a vehicle is going to suck down. My company figures a company truck is worth about $15k a year to the person the has it. They only charge for commuting miles per the IRS regulations. It is based on a percentage of lease value and varies based on the age of the vehicle and type.

Aaron:)

I actually left a higher paying job with better benefits just so I could bike to work. I haven't regretted it for one second since, though admittedly the differences weren't huge. But when you factor in the operating costs of the truck I sold and the fact that I'm no longer on blood pressure medicine, the difference is huge. That move was the best thing I've ever done for myself, and I'm not sure how much money it would take for me to reverse it. I know it would take a lot, perhaps at least twice as much.

I actually left a higher paying job with better benefits just so I could bike to work. I haven't regretted it for one second since, though admittedly the differences weren't huge. But when you factor in the operating costs of the truck I sold and the fact that I'm no longer on blood pressure medicine, the difference is huge. That move was the best thing I've ever done for myself, and I'm not sure how much money it would take for me to reverse it. I know it would take a lot, perhaps at least twice as much.

Wow, you do put a high value on carfree but it seems reasonable to me.

Do you like your job? What was it that lowered your blood pressure--the job itself, or the fact that you could ride instead of dirive a car?

I'd say B.
Reminds me of something I read recently.
"Let's say you were unemployed and received two job offers:
--Job A pays more, and allows you to drive to work.

--Job B pays so little, one is forced to ride a bicycle to work, and is less welcoming and affirming of the Single Driver Lifestyle."

Did you cross-post this in HummerForums?
Seriously, it's been so long since I've been a regular driver or passenger in a car, I now get nauseous if I'm ever in one. Seems I'm becoming 'car-tose' intolerant. I'd need 50G for A.

I sometimes feel like. I think it's partly because you are used to more fresh air on a bike and the car seems stifling. Plus if you are the driver, you constantly have your right foot stuck out... an unnatural pose.


I think there is also a health issue around spending a lot of time in a car that you might want to add to the cost of the car. If you are commuting more than a half-hour a day, you are living an unhealthy lifestyle.

Wow, you do put a high value on carfree but it seems reasonable to me.

Do you like your job? What was it that lowered your blood pressure--the job itself, or the fact that you could ride instead of dirive a car?

I think the less stressful commute along with the exercise is what lowered it. Maybe I do overvalue being car free a little, but I really really hate driving, so maybe not. :D

I consider myself forturnate, I was able to get employment with higher paying salary and benefits that was 1/5 the commute distance of my previous employment. Since I've significantly scaled down my personal expenditures from my already thrifty ways, I can take considerably lower paying employment (should I lose my current employment) that's closer to home than look for higher income much further away that would possibly require driving a motor vehicle.

After reading some of the posts on this subject, I couldn't help but post my thoughts.

I would choose Job B no matter what. Like others have said, if the company promotes healthy and friendly living they are usually that way with other things.

Besides, if I didn't like Job A there would not enough money out there that would keep me there. Maybe that is why I am still unemployed right now :)

Let's say you were unemployed and received two job offers:

--Job A pays more, but requires you to drive a car that you own to work.

--Job B pays less, but is welcoming and affirming of carfree people and bicycle commuters.
Which job would you take, if all else was equal? In dollars (or your country's currency), how much more would Job A have to pay for you to accept it? What's the reasoning behind your answer?

Oh come on, Roody; did you really expect anyone to choose A? Personally, I'd choose job A, move closer to that job, and ride my bike to work as before. Unless the job specifically required driving a car to accomplish the work, they'd never know the difference.

If I absolutely had to stick to your parameters, I'd pick B, of course. No one will work for an assh0le if they have a choice.

Let's say you were unemployed and received two job offers:

--Job A pays more, but requires you to drive a car that you own to work.

--Job B pays less, but is welcoming and affirming of carfree people and bicycle commuters.
Which job would you take, if all else was equal? In dollars (or your country's currency), how much more would Job A have to pay for you to accept it? What's the reasoning behind your answer?

In a heartbeat: B

Why? I believe car commuting detracts from quality of life: mine and others. Aside from the inevitable time it will take to inch along in bumper-to-bumper traffic, I would be in a cage and disengaged from my community, I'd be spewing pollution into the air---even with a hybrid---and I'd be stressed out. No thanks. Right now, I save more than $12g per year, I enjoy going to and coming home from work, am less stressed and can enjoy the sights, smells and sounds of my neighbourhood, because if I took a job that was within cycling distance it would, essentially be in my neighbourhood. I'd have the freedom to stop when and where I want without struggling to be in the right lane, searching for parking, worrying about feeding the meter once per hour. No thanks. I have a better attitude at work and am more productive because I ride to work. Slavery makes me grumpy, after all.

But if I was offered a dream job with an outrageous salary, as you suggest, what makes you think I;d remain in my house and commute by car? I'd move closer---the responsible thing to do---and ride to work.

I would probably say 10k (5$/hr) if paid hourly, perhaps a bit more if it were a salaried position (thinking $12K). 15k would definitely do it.

It would also depend on the pay of job B. If we're talking about a position that paid 20k/year, it would be difficult to accept that position even if I had to shell out for a car to get to job A.

There are jobs that require a vehicle to get to work, and don't require it to be used on the job.

Workers in industries such as agriculture, timber, and construction, are required to commute to and from worksites by car, but won't use them during the day as part of their employment.

Thing is, the worksites can change day by day, and the distances can vary by large amounts so bicycle commuting within the timeframes permitted becomes almost, if not, impossible.

Job ads for these industries often specify "must have own car, no transport supplied", even though that does not form a functioning part of the job description.

Obviously, I would take Job B with the proviso that the personalities within the organisation were such that we all could get along fine. That sometimes might be more difficult to achieve than on first glance at the philosophical niceties.

-----------------------------

When I did a small business management course about 10 years ago, the tutor used the business plan of a courier to show the pitfalls and expense of vehicle operation.

I can't remember the exact figures, but let's say out of a turnover of $30,000 a year, the vehicle consumed more of the money than the operator took as wages which were probably less than $10,000.

Fuel, servicing, repairs, replacements and contingencies, registration, insurance, garaging, parking, permits, other fees, and depreciation all took their slice before he did.

I think everyone concluded he needed to at least double the turnover to increase his wages, but that, of course, carried additional operating costs.

In the end, I think the turnover needed to get to around triple the original estimate to enable him to achieve the same level of comfortable living as in his current full-time job.

There are jobs that require a vehicle to get to work, and don't require it to be used on the job.

Workers in industries such as agriculture, timber, and construction, are required to commute to and from worksites by car, but won't use them during the day as part of their employment.

Thing is, the worksites can change day by day, and the distances can vary by large amounts so bicycle commuting within the timeframes permitted becomes almost, if not, impossible.

Job ads for these industries often specify "must have own car, no transport supplied", even though that does not form a functioning part of the job description.

Obviously, I would take Job B with the proviso that the personalities within the organisation were such that we all could get along fine. That sometimes might be more difficult to achieve than on first glance at the philosophical niceties.

-----------------------------

When I did a small business management course about 10 years ago, the tutor used the business plan of a courier to show the pitfalls and expense of vehicle operation.

I can't remember the exact figures, but let's say out of a turnover of $30,000 a year, the vehicle consumed more of the money than the operator took as wages which were probably less than $10,000.

Fuel, servicing, repairs, replacements and contingencies, registration, insurance, garaging, parking, permits, other fees, and depreciation all took their slice before he did.

I think everyone concluded he needed to at least double the turnover to increase his wages, but that, of course, carried additional operating costs.

In the end, I think the turnover needed to get to around triple the original estimate to enable him to achieve the same level of comfortable living as in his current full-time job.


Exactly! I know of certain local party who is making "lots of money" delivering pizzas by car. But when it came time to buy new tires for his car, and pay for some repairs he didn't have any money:innocent: Vehicles are expensive to own and maintain, unfortunately in our autocentric society it is difficult to get by without one. Different jobs and different parts of the country will affect this also. FWIW I maintain a fairly heavy truck at the request of my company, I am reimbursed for the cost, however I that may be coming to a screaming halt, they want to cut the compensation...I may be looking for a new job. I refuse to subsidize my company, that IS NOT the way it is supposed to work, but millions of workers do it every day.:notamused:

Edit: However I do what I can to make myself as vehicle light as possible, when possible. This past year I was able to transfer over 3,000 miles to Amtrak vs driving. And at least some mileage to bicycle when I was close enough to stores and restaurants.

Aaron:)

Oh come on, Roody; did you really expect anyone to choose A?

I expected everybody to pick B, since you're allowed to specify the amunt of extra pay you'd need to take it. I assume that everybody has their price, and I was wondering what that price is.

Like I said, I'd need extra pay in the amount of all my car expenses, plus $10,000 a year.

It's going to have to pay a LOT more to make up for the difference:

Cost of bicycle, customized off a used Hoss: $1,100
Cost of used Chevy S-10 that never worked: $19,500 (including financing)

Yearly maintenance on bicycle: $400
Yearly maintenance on S-10: $4,000+

Yearly insurance on bicycle: $0
Yearly insurance on S-10: $1,400

Yearly gasoline cost for bicycle: $0
Yearly gasoline cost for S-10: $2,000+

Not having to give rides to mouching goldbrickers: Priceless

Besides, what the hell kind of job requires you to have your own car? Pizza delivery?

It's going to have to pay a LOT more to make up for the difference:

Cost of bicycle, customized off a used Hoss: $1,100
Cost of used Chevy S-10 that never worked: $19,500 (including financing)

Yearly maintenance on bicycle: $400
Yearly maintenance on S-10: $4,000+

Yearly insurance on bicycle: $0
Yearly insurance on S-10: $1,400

Yearly gasoline cost for bicycle: $0
Yearly gasoline cost for S-10: $2,000+

Not having to give rides to mouching goldbrickers: Priceless

Besides, what the hell kind of job requires you to have your own car? Pizza delivery?

Any job that you requires you to work multiple locations, ie; construction, logging, possibly agriculture and many others. When I worked as an Assistant Manager for a large chain drug store we quite often had to work at more than one store in the district. The store I was originally assigned to was about 7 miles from my house, the furthest was over 60 miles.

Aaron:)

And you had to use your own vehicle, pay for gas, etc? That sucks.

And you had to use your own vehicle, pay for gas, etc? That sucks.

IIRC we did get some money for mileage based on the distance from our "home" store to the other. However if they transferred you to a different store you were on your own.:notamused: They did that to me and that was one of the reasons I quit working for them.

Aaron:)

I believe many construction and trade jobs pretty much require a vehicle. Maybe that is what they charge so much for their work. Wouldn't it be easier to see how much the average car free person makes compared to the average car centric person? I believe the latest GDP per person in the US is $48k according to the CIA factbook. So what do we think the GDP of the average car free person might be? Obviously because of the number of working people with cars the the difference in pay can't be all that high to get someone to drive to work.

To me anything over 10k a year more than likely would get me to take job A. In real life it took another 10k to get me to move a second time and ended up 10k the third time. All in all it was worth 30k a year to have a car. But with the exception of my very last move it was always up. I only worked one year close to home but the job required a lot of driving.

I've worked my career as a writer and photographer for small newspapers and at every job, I'm required to have a reliable car. I consider this a fair request since I have to cover stories and pictures all around town and beyond. In the places where I've lived, if I have to reach a fire or an accident within minutes, a car is almost always the fastest transportation available.

I'm paid a mileage allowance to cover fuel and vehicle maintenance.

If I could find similar work that didn't need a car, I'd consider it strongly. However, as long as I work for small newspapers, I'll need to have a car at work.

I've worked my career as a writer and photographer for small newspapers and at every job, I'm required to have a reliable car. I consider this a fair request since I have to cover stories and pictures all around town and beyond. In the places where I've lived, if I have to reach a fire or an accident within minutes, a car is almost always the fastest transportation available.

I'm paid a mileage allowance to cover fuel and vehicle maintenance.

If I could find similar work that didn't need a car, I'd consider it strongly. However, as long as I work for small newspapers, I'll need to have a car at work.
I worked for a small city newspaper in the 1970s and I remember the ace reporter didn't have a car. He used to walk everywhere and when it was too far, the paper paid for taxis. Somehow, I don't think that would fly these days, unless he was on the "green" beat.

I believe many construction and trade jobs pretty much require a vehicle. Maybe that is what they charge so much for their work. Wouldn't it be easier to see how much the average car free person makes compared to the average car centric person? I believe the latest GDP per person in the US is $48k according to the CIA factbook. So what do we think the GDP of the average car free person might be? Obviously because of the number of working people with cars the the difference in pay can't be all that high to get someone to drive to work.

To me anything over 10k a year more than likely would get me to take job A. In real life it took another 10k to get me to move a second time and ended up 10k the third time. All in all it was worth 30k a year to have a car. But with the exception of my very last move it was always up. I only worked one year close to home but the job required a lot of driving.

I bet the numbers might be skewed. I have friends that live in NYC that make 4-5 times what I do and don't own cars. The area I live in a car is almost a prerequisite, and the average income per year is around $25,000 (I make a fair bit more than that). Jobs come and go, and unless you want to move every few years to follow the job market, you have to drive. In the past 25 years I have had to change jobs 4 times due to companies shutting down, laying off or going bankrupt. Current job requires I maintain a vehicle but I am reimbursed for it...at the moment.:( My commute has varied from 4 miles to the current 46 miles:notamused:

Aaron:)