Classic & Vintage - Gianni Motta Personal...DOA?

True to my name, I picked up another junker yesterday. Not a terrible deal really, as I ended up with a nice collection of Campy SR/NR bits. However, the frameset has seen better days. Not sure of the year; SR rear derailleur is Pat. 81, but it may have been a replacement. I've found some photos of early 80s Personals online, but none have the internal cable routing.

What are the thoughts on the top tube near the seat cluster? Caput? I know the ends of the tubes are butted, and I know the top tube doesn't take huge stress loads, so maybe it's salvageable.

At 58 x 57, the frame is a bit smaller than my preference, but I'm toying with the idea of a prep and paint (not by me). Or maybe pass the frame onto someone else. But I don't want to spend the cash on something that is structurally compromised.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/dissident75/Gianni%20Motta/Gianni_Motta_0001.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/dissident75/Gianni%20Motta/Gianni_Motta_0027.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/dissident75/Gianni%20Motta/Gianni_Motta_0028.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/dissident75/Gianni%20Motta/Gianni_Motta_0037.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/dissident75/Gianni%20Motta/Gianni_Motta_0052.jpg

More frame details for those interested:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/dissident75/Gianni%20Motta/Gianni_Motta_0039.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/dissident75/Gianni%20Motta/Gianni_Motta_0034.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/dissident75/Gianni%20Motta/Gianni_Motta_0035.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/dissident75/Gianni%20Motta/Gianni_Motta_0040.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/dissident75/Gianni%20Motta/Gianni_Motta_0044.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/dissident75/Gianni%20Motta/Gianni_Motta_0047.jpg

The left side of the top tube looks really thin. I think that before I'd spend any money on it, I'd poke around the tube a bit with a pick. You might be surprised when you poke right through the tube. If you are going to save the frame, you may as well have the tube replaced.

The state of that frame is really sad. I hate to see them that way. You could probably find someone to bead blast it clean ($15 - $25), so you can get an idea of the extent of damage. The top tube looks pretty bad though.

That frame is done.

The... HORROR! Being in California, I'm always amazed when an Eastern rustbucket car hits our streets, but that bike is really a shame. It has spent many a winter outside.

The... HORROR! Being in California, I'm always amazed when an Eastern rustbucket car hits our streets, but that bike is really a shame. It has spent many a winter outside.

I'm thinking it may have been an indoor trainer. What's puzzling is that nothing, and I mean nothing, else but the frame was rusted. Not the seatpost binder, not the headset, not the chain, not the chainring bolts or crank bolts. The chrome on the fork does have very light surface rust, but that's probably attributable to the humidity in the northeast.

What may be more amazing is that nothing was stuck: the seatpost, the stem and the BB all came out easily. No rust inside the tubes either.

Could be a notoriously poor Italian paint job. Or the frame had already begun rusting when the components were swapped over to it. Then it sat in a humid NJ garage.

Anyway, I think I'll take a dremel to the rust tomorrow and see how deep it goes.

That's terrible. Those are nice frames, I've been looking for one in my size for a while. Good luck with the rust.

Nice parts collection. FWIW, those are exactly the spots that I wipe down every day on my trainer bike. I put the Litespeed on the trainer, because I don't want to build a rust bucket.

yep. it's most likely rusted on the top tube from a heavy sweat-hog...but that could be in its favor since internal rusting is usually more devastating. Rather than Dremel it I'd soak the top tube in oxalic acid or phosphoric acid and you might be surprised at how much closer to a "keeper" it will look...worth a try since it's a nice bike!

The rust on the bottom bracket around the cable hole concerns me, too.

If you end up replacing the top tube, do it without internal cable routing. It's just another hole for the rain (and sweat) to get in.

Oxalic bath project!

-Kurt

Oxalic bath project!

Okay. Soaked the seat cluster 3 days in an oxalic acid solution. Progressively added more powder as the it was moving too slow for me. Also added a submersible aquarium heater thinking heated water would speed the reaction. Probably won't use oxalic acid again - a couple minutes near the solution made me nauseous.

Here are the results. Note the greenish(?) patina - it sands off easily enough, but probably the result of a too strong solution.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/dissident75/Gianni%20Motta/Motta_oxalic0001.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/dissident75/Gianni%20Motta/Motta_oxalic0005.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/dissident75/Gianni%20Motta/Motta_oxalic0007.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/dissident75/Gianni%20Motta/Motta_oxalic0008.jpg


After a quick, not very thorough sanding:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/dissident75/Gianni%20Motta/Motta_oxalic0011.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/dissident75/Gianni%20Motta/Motta_oxalic0011.jpg


Doesn't look too bad to me. Definitely some pitting, but no holes straight through the tube.

Don't know what plans you might have for repainting, but I have someone here who might be willing to give it a try - if you're going that way.

As long as the fork crown is in good shape, it is probably safe enough to ride. I have broken 3 frames while riding, and safety was never an issue.

Get some Naval Jelly on that. If you really want to get to the bottom of it, and find the surface of the good metal soak a section in straight Naval Jelly.

I've never seen one with internal cable routing, Neither of mine has it.

I saw once where supposedly the lack of trademark Gianni Motta pinched-in seat stays indicate that it's counterfeit. I've also heard that's nonsense and that was just how the Personals were. I've never been able to find out any more. If so, both of mine are counterfeit but damn fine counterfeits. They ride great, are very durable (they're over25 years old!) and are featherweights - weighing an even 19lbs with no bottle cage and silk tubulars. Supposedly Columbus SL (which is NOT a good thing for your rust!) and I have no reason to doubt that - like I said, it rides and weighe like SL. All Motta cut-out lugs, crown and BB shell. Both bought new from one of the largest US Motta dealers. I have, however, seen Personals both with and without pinched stays (see picture for said stays). Most without.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3141/2672844583_6e99df7cab.jpg?v=0

I haven't been able to find any photographic examples online with internal cable routing either. I have, however, seen examples with and without the pinched seat stays - which I've seen referred to as the 'Trans Torx' system. Mine is sans 'Trans Torx'.

I found the bike at an estate sale, so the owner wasn't present. It was advertised, however, that he ordered the bike directly from Italy.

Yeah, IIRC correctly all these years later the pinched stays were kinda rare and usually NOT seen on Personal models. The one above is a "Personal 2001" that I do remember having the pinched stays. So either the straight stays were correct or there were more counterfeits than genuine around at the time.

That was just a post and counter post I saw on the Internet many years ago. Never been able to verify either way. Can't find the post anymore.

Yours is identical to mine in every way (aside from the rust and cable routing). Notice the sloppy painting of the cutouts in the lower head lug. After I saw that post and thought about it for awhile I took that to be a sign of authenticity. Who the heck would go through all that trouble to build a counterfeit and give it a paint job like that? Somebody seriously content on making it look like the real thing I suppose - that was par-for-th-course on high-end Italian machines of that era!

edit: scratch that on "totally identical" comment - or at least modify it. Mine both have the seat says chromed all the way to the top. Otherwise the lugs are all the same, the way they're painted is the same, etc. Mine was bought in 1983 IIRC.