Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - Using GPS technology on Brevets

I am interested if anyone during long distance touring or randonneuring is using a GPS to avoid getting lost (especially at night when it is hard to see road signs, keep track of the milage, etc.). Is it possible to get the route sheet, put it on a Macintosh computer and download in onto a GPS unit. On several of the forums I have read comments about the Garmin Edge 705, but the description of how to get the info from route sheet to computer to GPS seems tricky if you are not very computer/electronically savy. I am 60 and need help setting up a system that will allow me to do these rides without getting lost. I have a bike ready for the journey, a broken-in B17 Brooks saddle and I am fit enough but at this point I am held back by by my fear of getting lost at night in the boonies?
Any good solutions among you long distance riders? I would appreciate any helpful suggestions, even ones that might require the assistance of my computer literate adult children to set up.
Thanks.

i think you'll need a GPX file (or some other format) of the route to upload to the device, unless you want to enter all the turns manually. usually for our rides someone will link to a GPX file you can use on the device.

but.. i think the big caveat with these devices is that your ride may very well last longer than their ~15-hour battery life.

so even if you do use the GPS unit, investing in a small headlamp and a cue-sheet holder might come in handy, just in case.

one of the things i finally had to learn in my first rando season last year was how to navigate at night - using a cuesheet at night, you'll need to be able to light it up, and finding the right headlamp (and cue-mounting system) took me longer than it should have. i found one of these (http://ecom1.planetbike.com/3042_1.html) little lights that i think will make a fine helmet-lamp (the white one).

anyway, hope this helps!

bikely.com has an option to output (download) a .gpx file, which is a file that can be read by a garmin (others too?) gps unit. Basically, it is a list of route points that you would place on a digital google map that would then be transferred to your gps unit. When you ride through a point, your gps device will point straight for the next point. So if the next point is off to the left at an intersection of two roads, your gps will point left. when you turn left, it will be pointing straight ahead, and will tell you how far to the next point.

you will need to buy a cable to connect the gps to your computer, but its pretty easy to figure out from there...

Bikely is good, as is mapmyride.com. I've been using a Garmin 305 for brevets with great luck. Just be sure to also pick up a method for charging it while you're on the road. I use a Tekkeon, which is just a plastic cover that holds 4 AA batteries, and it plugs to the back of the GPS to give it a charge for the longer rides (400K and over, possibly a long 300K). I'm sure there are other good solutions too, both for GPS and for powering them.

mattm has a good point too. Even once you're happy with your GPS setup, make sure you're comfortable with reading a cue sheet just in case somthing happens.

Steve

You might find the following link (http://thedailyrandonneur.wordpress.com/how-to-train-your-gps/) helpful.

barlows: can you expand on how you use your 305 for the brevets? I thought 305 not being a map capabale device would be a major obstacle.

Hanif.

barlows: can you expand on how you use your 305 for the brevets? I thought 305 not being a map capabale device would be a major obstacle.Sure. I take the cue sheet in advance, and map it into mapmyride.com. Then I export it as a course file and download it (via Training Center) to the Garmin. I don't get turn by turn directions, but the 305 gives you kind of breadcrumbs, so to speak. I just follow the line on the screen. It's not as good as the 605/705, but it's been working pretty well so far. I haven't had to get a cue sheet out yet....<knocks on wood>....

Steve

P.S. - Another happy side effect of doing it this way is that I'm familiar with the road names since I've used them during the mapping process. When I come to a turn in the GPS line, I can then check the sign to be sure it's a road name that I remember.

... and map it into mapmyride.com. Then I export it as a course file and download it (via Training Center) to the Garmin. I don't get turn by turn directions, but the 305 gives you kind of breadcrumbs, ...

Thanks Steve,

A while ago I had purchased a Garmin Legend HCx unit. It is a hand held unit then can be used in the car, on the bike and for hiking. Being a 'versatile' unit, it is not the most ideal unit for say any one specific activity - well perhaps for hiking. By that I mean, the screen is pretty small for say car use and it does not have voice for turn instructions. For the bike, the unit seems a little large and you need a decent mounting system (I do not think the Garmin bike mount is durable enough - this is just by looking at it).

Indeed for cycling the 705 is most attractive. However, I was deterred by the price tag and its battery life. I know that there exist a number of ways to charge/power the unit. I assume that on a 10/12+ hour brevet the unit would need to be externally charged/powered via the usb connector. Here in the PNW, this might be a show stopper as the chance of encountering rain is quite high. Anyhow such were my considerations when I decided to get the hand held unit.

Back to the OPs queries... In addition to the Legend HCx unit, I also had to get the mapping software. The HCx and the 705 are mappable units, meaning that not only do they assist you in navigation but also you can download user defined maps. Garmin sells the software for the Mac computer as well - however there is a minimum system's requirement. I also pruchased a RAM mount system for the unit. This allows for a much sturdier mounting solution then the Garmin bike mount attachment that you can buy as well.

You can also check out this BF link (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=425471). One of the posts includes more info from a person who used a GPS unit on a PBP.

I'm the author of the instructions on using a GPS for randonneuring that are linked to below, I did want to add: I've had some problems running the latest version of the MapSource maps with my somewhat-older Garmin eTrex Vista Cx. The new software had no noticeable improvements, e.g. the "new" roads that are five years old now are still not showing on the "new" Garmin maps. So I've reverted back to using the older version of the software. But I have not heard complaints from my friends who bought eTrex Vista HCx (the latest model) with that newer software. That said, if my GPS ever dies, I will look hard at the DeLorme GPS, since it seems pretty good. One particularly useful feature is that you can edit the maps to add a "road" and then route on it. This is useful for any routes that go down a little section of bike path, which Garmin cannot do.

Also, I've never used the Garmin software with a Mac. Looking at Garmin's website, it appears that you have to register ("unlock") your Garmin map on "your Windows PC" before going through what looks like a fairly involved process to translate your maps to your Mac.

So while it would be nice to be able to point the original poster to a solution that requires negligible computer literacy, the fact that he's on a Mac seems to add some unavoidable complexity if he wants to use the Garmin software with a Garmin GPS. Even using the Garmin stuff on a Windows machine is nontrivial.

Personally, I'd avoid using the Edge series, because battery life is inadequate for brevets, and so you must bring some sort of supplementary power supply for any brevet that will last more than about 15 hours. I would think the total weight with this lash-up will be more than an eTrex Vista. And it's necessarily more complex, so it creates additional potential failure points.


You might find the following link (http://thedailyrandonneur.wordpress.com/how-to-train-your-gps/) helpful.

barlows: can you expand on how you use your 305 for the brevets? I thought 305 not being a map capabale device would be a major obstacle.

Hanif.

I'm the author of the instructions on using a GPS for randonneuring that are linked to below...

Thanks for a very informative article. Also, may I ask what have you found to be the most effective way of mounting your GPS handheld unit? Currently I have the RAM mount, and, though solid, it is rather ugly. I like to have a small handlebar bag on the rides. But, I have found that with the RAM mount, and the GPS unit in place, accessing the bag can be a bit cumbersome. So, despite my reservations, I am looking at getting the Garming large rail mount.

Hanif.

I'm afraid I (try to) avoid getting lost the old way -- with a map/cue sheet (in a cue sheet holder), a good helmet light and an emergency compass (Got a nice little one with my '07 PBP kit).

I've considered GPS (hey, I'm as much of a gear freak as the next guy!) but limited battery life, an internet full of complaints about glitches and lost GPS-users asking me for directions, has convinced me it's not ready for prime-time.

I've got a bluetooth GPS receiver and a Palm Treo with Tom-Tom Navigator that I find very nice for driving. I'm not sure how long their batteries would last, but I doubt they'd even make it through a 200k. I expect I'll carry them on brevets, but keep them turned off and rely on the cue sheet. If I do manage to get lost, I can turn them on and find out where I am and should be able to get it to navigate me back to the last intersection that I missed.

I'll certainly be carrying the Treo, since it's my cell phone and alarm clock, and the bluetooth GPS receiver is so small and light it's no problem to toss it in the bag as well.

I do not use one. I like the challenge of navigating the course using only the cue sheet and my wits. I tried to use one once and I just couldn't help staring at the thing mile after mile. I don't use a cyclocomputer for the same reason

I just have the Garmin handlebar mount and it works fine. Make sure to tie the GPS to the handlebars with the lanyard so that if the mount fails or (more likely) if you don't click the GPS in properly, hitting a bump will not be the end of your GPS (a friend riding a 600K lost his in a ditch at 3 am and couldn't find it). I use a Lone Peak handlebar bag which click onto a mount like the ClikFix mount, and with the GPS next to the stem it is handy and does not get in the way of the handlebar bag. Another alternative would be to use a Minoura Space Grip.


Thanks for a very informative article. Also, may I ask what have you found to be the most effective way of mounting your GPS handheld unit? Currently I have the RAM mount, and, though solid, it is rather ugly. I like to have a small handlebar bag on the rides. But, I have found that with the RAM mount, and the GPS unit in place, accessing the bag can be a bit cumbersome. So, despite my reservations, I am looking at getting the Garming large rail mount.

Hanif.

Yes, the GPS is not without problems, but I still find it to be highly advantageous. STI shifters are also not without problems, and many randonneurs still prefer them, though I personally use downtube shifters because I like them and because they're trouble-free. I think the weight savings from my downtube shifters almost make up for the extra weight of the GPS :-)

Anyway, I tried to avoid getting lost the old way, but after a 200K where I got totally lost in pouring rain with no idea where I went off route, a map that couldn't be read with my aging eyes, and consulting locals who had no idea how to get back on route, I came very close to DNFing and decided to buy a GPS. Since buying it, about three years ago, I can recall only one time I have gone off course for more than half a mile. Occasionally, the GPS will come up with a shortcut that you have to ignore because it's not on the cue sheet (my one experience off-route for more than a mile was because the GPS chose a shortcut, and the street sign was turned around, and I was too lazy to stop and double-check the GPS map). For me, where the GPS is most useful is when I'm not paying enough attention to the cue sheet &/or road and it beeps at me that there's a turn coming (or I missed a turn). Plus, at night it is very handy to have less of a struggle with the cue sheet and seeing signs. Finally, on fast descents I like to be able to see (on the GPS map) whether the coming turn is just a slight blip or if it leads into a sharp corner.


I'm afraid I (try to) avoid getting lost the old way -- with a map/cue sheet (in a cue sheet holder), a good helmet light and an emergency compass (Got a nice little one with my '07 PBP kit).

I've considered GPS (hey, I'm as much of a gear freak as the next guy!) but limited battery life, an internet full of complaints about glitches and lost GPS-users asking me for directions, has convinced me it's not ready for prime-time.

I just have the Garmin handlebar mount and it works fine. Make sure to tie the GPS to the handlebars with the lanyard so that if the mount fails or (more likely) if you don't click the GPS in properly, hitting a bump will not be the end of your GPS (a friend riding a 600K lost his in a ditch at 3 am and couldn't find it). I use a Lone Peak handlebar bag which click onto a mount like the ClikFix mount, and with the GPS next to the stem it is handy and does not get in the way of the handlebar bag. Another alternative would be to use a Minoura Space Grip.

Great, good to know. I will give the Garmin mount a try. At present my handlebar estate is quite okay - though I do like the Nitto holder. Alas, it is only for standard rails, and I, at present, have an oversize bar/stem combination. Re: the flying GPS, I can just see Randochap shaking his head as he reaches for his water stick! ;-)

I have had to split up my brevets into control point routes and have the route on a track that displays also.

A track will not prompt you where to turn but you can see the line drawn on the map.
A route will prompt you where to turn but you can only have a limited amount of waypoints. If you don't use enough waypoints the GPS will give you shortcuts or if you have it set to bicycle mode potentially longer routes to avoid highways where brevets often ride on the shoulder.

Even if you don't put on a route I'd at least want to put on the track which you can easily do on bikely and download. If you somehow don't have time to do that because of scheduling it is worth it to bring because often times the routes have signs that are twisted or missing.

a note to seattle-area randos: on one of the SIR 600k's last year, organizers said that GPS units weren't a good idea, as part of the route was "off the grid," and not gps-mappable. (this was the windy ridge area, for the locals).

though i suppose you could still program the unit to follow whatever path you chose, it still seemed to limit the effectiveness of the devices, at least on that brevet. so that's another reason i tend to stay away from using them for routing (i do use them for shorter rides, to record data).

however i must admit that the idea of using the unit perhaps only at night, to aid in navigation, is tempting. but at the same time, i enjoy the challenge just having that cuesheet to go from!

I find it works best to start a new route at each control, unless controls are unusually close together. I almost never have to break a route between controls because of the 50-point limit. But it's not a big deal, anyway. You just get to the end of part 1 of the leg and start navigating part 2.


I have had to split up my brevets into control point routes and have the route on a track that displays also.

A track will not prompt you where to turn but you can see the line drawn on the map.
A route will prompt you where to turn but you can only have a limited amount of waypoints. If you don't use enough waypoints the GPS will give you shortcuts or if you have it set to bicycle mode potentially longer routes to avoid highways where brevets often ride on the shoulder.

Even if you don't put on a route I'd at least want to put on the track which you can easily do on bikely and download. If you somehow don't have time to do that because of scheduling it is worth it to bring because often times the routes have signs that are twisted or missing.

For stuff that's "off the grid" you can use topo maps to make an "off-road" route. Often, though, this is overkill since there are no choices to make. But sometimes you'll have a route that follows a bike path for miles and then you have to get off and go on a road, and the bike path intersections with the road are not always well marked. If so, you can set proximity waypoints at the start and end of bits that are off road, so that the GPS will beep as you approach the road that you need to turn onto.

I guess there's some stuff that's truly "off grid", in the sense that it just is not on any map: Camp David, Area 51, and similar places. But attempts to randonneur in those areas would probably not succeed.


a note to seattle-area randos: on one of the SIR 600k's last year, organizers said that GPS units weren't a good idea, as part of the route was "off the grid," and not gps-mappable. (this was the windy ridge area, for the locals).

though i suppose you could still program the unit to follow whatever path you chose, it still seemed to limit the effectiveness of the devices, at least on that brevet. so that's another reason i tend to stay away from using them for routing (i do use them for shorter rides, to record data).

however i must admit that the idea of using the unit perhaps only at night, to aid in navigation, is tempting. but at the same time, i enjoy the challenge just having that cuesheet to go from!

I wonder if anyone in the Electronics forum has devised a generator hub driven charger for USB devices like GPS units and PDA phones? Since battery life seems to be a driving factor for GPS use, would you (anyone here) be more likely to use a GPS on longer brevets if you could recharge it off your generator hub when you're not running your headlight?

I wonder if anyone in the Electronics forum has devised a generator hub driven charger for USB devices like GPS units and PDA phones? Since battery life seems to be a driving factor for GPS use, would you (anyone here) be more likely to use a GPS on longer brevets if you could recharge it off your generator hub when you're not running your headlight?

Absolutely! I just can't seem to put in a 15 hour 600!

There has been some discussion of this, if iremember correctly, over on randon. I'm not a geek, so if someone could figure all this out, it would be great. I have carefully researched the latest options and the 705 appeals to my aquisitive gearfreak side, but there are just too many gaps in the technology from what I can figure.

Meanwhile, I also have an uneasy sense that all this obsessing over space-age gizmos is leading away from the essential experience of the sport and the environment we (or, at least, I) are actually going out to meet on a randonnee ... or ramble.

BTW, WTF a "water stick?"

On edit: Did you see this? http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=505647

...
BTW, WTF a "water stick?"
...

In jest only - no insult intended.

It shouldn't be too tough to make a hub-driven USB charger. Just rectify it and send it through a buck/boost voltage regulator to get a steady 5V. Some filtering would be desirable as well. There might be some issues due to the generator being a current source, rather than a voltage source, but I'm sure they could be worked out.

In jest only - no insult intended.

None taken, we're all adult cyclists, used to pain:) But ... what's a "water stick?"

... But ... what's a "water stick?" Used in the practice of dowsing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing), my 'non-technical' Australian lingo got in the way!

I have a bike ready for the journey, a broken-in B17 Brooks saddle and I am fit enough but at this point I am held back by by my fear of getting lost at night in the boonies?


Why not use a GPS as a backup plan to your maps? You can leave the unit powered off and if you are in doubt to your position or where your next turn is, you can take a quick stop and power up your GPS. I have a Sony Nav-U that I got for under $100 at Bestbuy. I bought it for the tours I plan to take this year. A simple GPS right out of the box will make sure you are not lost in the boonies.

Used in the practice of dowsing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing), my 'non-technical' Australian lingo got in the way!

Ahh! Yes, of course. Never leave home without the old carbon-fibre dowsing rod in my quiver.

I,m still reluctant to take the leap on a GPS unit as they seem like a pricey gizmo that are prone to have errors. When I am on brevet I,m already super paranoid about missing a cue that I would second guess the GPS all the time after the first time it failed.

I also like the look of a handle bar that is not to cluttered with gadgets. I,m fine with a cue sheet and a bike computer.

But on the other hand the newer models do have immense amount of really useful information that an average bike computer does not seem to offer.

I'm the author of the instructions on using a GPS for randonneuring that are linked to below, ...

[slight hijack]

Hey, Nick! When are you coming out for a Chuck & Crista ride?!

[/slight hijack]

There's another use for GPS besides navigation--comforting family members. As shown in my link below, with certain GPS enabled cell phones, your loved ones (or whomever you want) may track you while you do a ride. My cell phone usually lasts for an entire century on one extended life battery, so anytime during that time, they can navigate to the tracking web page to see where I am on the route. Unfortunately, I can't pre-load a route/track to this application.

If you go to the link after a ride is over, it will show the last ride that was recorded with the "Live Tracking" feature turned on.

I guess I don't get the references to lost GPS-users and other errors experienced when using GPS. I've been using GPS for quite a while now (old handheld for hiking, Garmin 305 for biking, and GPS/sonar for boating), and have never been lost due to the GPS unit. Now, if someone doesn't input the course correctly, that's user error. The unit can only be as good as the route you put into it. Like any other piece of outdoor gear, you need to be familiar with its operation before expecting to rely on it. Make your choice for whatever reason you like, but I gotta call BS on the story that GPS isn't ready for prime-time.

Now, if you don't like them because of battery length issues, I've got no answer for that. Either you can live with using an alternate power source for longer Brevets (I don't mind it), or you can't. At least that one is a reasonable complaint.

Battery life can be an issue. I built a "mintyboost" I use for rides over 7 hours.
http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/

Battery life can be an issue. I built a "mintyboost" I use for rides over 7 hours.
http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/

can you get a full charge on the GPS unit from that? i'm intrigued.

can you get a full charge on the GPS unit from that? i'm intrigued.

Yep. I ran my Garmon 305 to nothing on a ride, then attached the mintyboost. It ran for at least 6 hour AND charged the unit to boot.

I also used it once when the Garmin was dead just to charge it. It worked. I was using those more-expensive lithium AA batteries they sell now for electronic junk. I don't know if that made it work better or not. But I'm very happy the boost. BONUS: charges my iPod too.

Battery life can be an issue. I built a "mintyboost" I use for rides over 7 hours.
http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/

Do you use this with an Edge? When I plug my Edge 705 into the USB port on my computer it turns the 705 off. I can use the 705 if it's plugged into AC, so I got a couple portable power packs (http://www.blackanddecker.com/ProductGuide/Product-Details.aspx?ProductID=17060). They're not terribly heavy, but I haven't tried them yet and don't know how much power they'd provide.

I use the Mintyboost with an edge 305 and it runs and charges at the same time. Don't know about the 705

for 705 users: can i record a 24 hour ride with 1-second recording? (in terms of space on the device)

if not, what about with 'smart recording'? (this is assuming i can recharge it somewhere along the way)

i'm doing a fleche soon and want to record all the data, possibly including power data.

It couldn't hurt to wear a helmet head light. You can look at street signs well in advance and read adjacent (junction) street signs to verify intersections etc. You could never do that with a head light mounted on the bike. (excepting pointing the bike)

It couldn't hurt to wear a helmet head light. You can look at street signs well in advance and read adjacent (junction) street signs to verify intersections etc. You could never do that with a head light mounted on the bike. (excepting pointing the bike)

is it non-sequitur thursday already??

fwiw i'm not using the garmin unit for routing; i have a cuesheet for that, and i use a headlamp to illumiate signs as you suggest. i just want to record the speed/elevation of the ride.

i just want to record the speed/elevation of the ride.Yeah, that sounds "neat-oh."

I wonder if anyone in the Electronics forum has devised a generator hub driven charger for USB devices like GPS units and PDA phones?

But of course we have!

I got a great schematic for a circuit that uses any 6V 3W dynamo hub to run a headlight or a charging circuit. You select which function with the flip of a switch, and you can power it with a hub, bottle, or BB generator. Endless power for GPS or cellphones. It's a simple and elegant solution... but I can't find where I stored it!

I got a copy from a user named "n4zou"... if you PM him, I'm sure he'll send it to you. Or even better, maybe he'll repost it here for us.

Bobby

But of course we have!

I got a great schematic for a circuit that uses any 6V 3W dynamo hub to run a headlight or a charging circuit. You select which function with the flip of a switch, and you can power it with a hub, bottle, or BB generator. Endless power for GPS or cellphones. It's a simple and elegant solution... but I can't find where I stored it!

I got a copy from a user named "n4zou"... if you PM him, I'm sure he'll send it to you. Or even better, maybe he'll repost it here for us.

Bobby

I think this must be the thread you were referring to:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=508658

Have you built one up?

I'm using a Garmin 705. I use bikeroutetoaster.com to map my ride, including sections on bicycle paths -- you can use the satellite view to find the path. Bikeroutetoaster allows you to download a TCX file which you then copy to the 705. This of course would work with the MAC since it doesn't depend on loading any software onto the MAC. With auto routing and auto zoom off, I've used it through the night for navigation, including onto and off of bicycle paths. I use a small 4xAA charger with a mini-usb connector to keep it charged while riding. I did two 400km and two 600km brevets with this setup and kept the backlight on during all the night riding so that I would not get lost (and I went straight through on the 600's).

One solution to the short life of the GPS unit is to use an external battery pack. I bought the Lenmar PowerPort Mini at Radio shack. These packs are used to provide backup power to USB devices.

Do you use this with an Edge? When I plug my Edge 705 into the USB port on my computer it turns the 705 off. I can use the 705 if it's plugged into AC, so I got a couple portable power packs (http://www.blackanddecker.com/ProductGuide/Product-Details.aspx?ProductID=17060). They're not terribly heavy, but I haven't tried them yet and don't know how much power they'd provide.

yes - this works with the 705. in last weekend's 400, i used my minty boost just to make sure the unit didn't power off. it was right at the edge, and had given me one 'low battery' indication.

another poster asked about a 24 hour event on the 705.... yes - no problem, there is plenty of room on the unit for such a ride.

For those who use an external power pack, can you elaborate on how you manage the pack and gps unit on the bike. I assume you use the 705 while it is being charged/using the external power. Any challenges of using the power pack during inclement weather?

Thanks.

Hanif.

I have the Forerunner 405. Battery life is about 8 hours. It functions while charging. It doesn't show any data while charging but it does record your route. That's the one thing that you have to test. I put mine in the bento box for an hour or two and it works just fine. Putting it in your jersey pocket is an option unless the jack comes out due to your movement. For a 24 hour race I will purchase another Lenmar minty boost. (1.5 oz). Another nice thing about the Lenmar is that you can get two charges off of one charge. Have not tested that yet, however.

I'm using the Edge 705. With the Gomadic external charger the unit is usable while charging. I lengthened the wire that comes from the charger to the 705 and keep the charger in a top tube bag. I've been lucky so far, have not needed to use the charger during inclement weather, but one rider said that he used beeswax at the miniusb connection to keep the connection dry. I've not tried that.

I tend to keep the charger on all the time -- recently did that with a 600km ride -- thus keeping the 705 fully charged. Unless I get more than 12 hours of constant rain, starting with a fully charged 705 I would hope to outlast most inclement weather. The charger takes 4 AA batteries, so it's simple to keep spares even for this, on the road.