Foo - Any bar owners here on BF? Got any advice?

I'm considering an eventual goal of owning my own bar. Do any of you guys own your own bar and have some advice?

I'm considering a very low key bar in terms of expenses. I'd like to recreate the experience of Oktoberfest in Germany.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/99/Oktoberfest_bierzelt.JPG/800px-Oktoberfest_bierzelt.JPG

Obviously I won't be able to recreate the scale of the event. I'd like a similar fashion of serving people. Bench seats and big wooden tables so that it's easy for people to get together and talk. I'd like to only serve beer and at most some wines. I'd prefer not to. Food will all be simple foods that can be made in bulk such as chicken, sausage, breads, chili, etc.. It'd all be bar food, but perhaps with some little flair here and there to set it apart from bar food you'd get elsewhere.

Perhaps, if space permits, a small house band to get people singing such as at this tent during Oktoberfest. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9bLrzmL_JU&feature=related

Hell, an actual bar wouldn't be completely necessary as the idea isn't for people to come to try exciting beers and food, but just enjoy a comfortable environment. Line the walls with flat screens and it can double as a sports bar. That doesn't mean the beer and food have to be bad, but I expect the bar to be successful for being a good time WITH good food and drink for good prices. It could be simple enough that the menu is verbal or painted on one of the walls.

What advice do you guys have? Are there different licenses for bars that will only serve beer and wine instead of hard alcohol as well? Anyone ever been to a bar like this in the states?

This is by far, the coolest bar I've ever been to. (http://www.fallingrocktaphouse.com/) Of course, my experiences come from living in a college town, so I have to deal with that crowd...

The most successful business model will incorporate free drinks for foosters.

The least successful business model will incorporate free drinks for foosters. You'll go bankrupt in minutes.

:innocent:

karaoke and a dancing poll! the place will be packed!

:innocent:

You need to learn to be a "yes-man" :notamused:

:p:)

Foosters are stalwarts in their support. Often facing grave danger as depicted here:

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s65/StupidlyBrave/Antics/flooding.jpg

karaoke and a dancing poll! the place will be packed!

so we get to vote on teh kind of dancing?

The most successful business model will incorporate free drinks for foosters.

I like how you took out the part about going broke.

I would love to have odd drink specials though. I'm not a registered cyclist, but I imagine you do get a card for your USCA registration. Bring in your card and get one free drink. Did you finish a local race? Bring in your bib number and get a free drink. Who knows? It's meant to be a bar that grows locally by word of mouth as being known for being a good time and supporting the community.

so we get to vote on teh kind of dancing?

umm...I know what my vote is....that's why the pole is there.

You need to learn to be a "whiner" :notamused:

:p:)

:cry:

The requirements are all over the map. You said low-key, and then went on to Octoberfest and/or sports bar.

Brew your own beer,
put in benches,
TV if you feel the need
some simple food,
does not have to be expensive to be good

umm...I know what my vote is....that's why the pole is there.

you lost an l and added an e. now I am confused.

Seriously, I'd look into that bar I posted. It has a great atmosphere and it's all about beer. None of that BS dancing on bars, pour-me-another-shot-of-whatever-doesn't-taste-like-alcohol-so-I-can-get-plastered crap.

you lost an l and added an e. now I am confused.

I'm on drugs at the moment...confusion is normal.

A few of these running around inside the bar would probably help sales:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41eO76qTw9L._AA280_.jpg

You might check out the Flying Saucer if there is one in your area. They operate a bar in a very similar manner to what you describe. Its probably expensive to maintain so much import inventory, though.

It's a hard business.

DWI laws and overserving, serving minors, sell food or not to sell food, making money, etc etc etc AND after grand opening - keeping the customers coming in.

Worked for several bars, ran one bar/restaurant.

Most of my bosses agreed it takes 5 years to make money.

But it can be fun too.

The requirements are all over the map. You said low-key, and then went on to Octoberfest and/or sports bar.

Brew your own beer,
put in benches,
TV if you feel the need
some simple food,
does not have to be expensive to be good

You don't think that shot of oktoberfest exudes low key? They're all on bench seats. A sports bar to me is just a bar with enough TV coverage that you can catch the game from most of the seats. Some bars may have a tv or two, but that doesn't make them sports bars. Considering how cheap tv's are I don't think it'd be a big deal.

You need to learn to be a "yes-man" :notamused:

:p:)

Foosters are stalwarts in their support. Often facing grave danger as depicted here:

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s65/StupidlyBrave/Antics/flooding.jpg

Dude...I didn't scroll down to see the caption on that pic and my first thought was, "Dude, is that whizz?!?!?!?!" :roflmao2:

You might check out the Flying Saucer if there is one in your area. They operate a bar in a very similar manner to what you describe. Its probably expensive to maintain so much import inventory, though.

I've been to the Flying Saucer in Nashville. That seems even more of a high end bar than needed. Although, I certainly enjoyed the brats and beer at the place.

Essentially it'd be like an essentials only menu. If I had it my way I'd probably have one beer that I thought was the pinnacle of it's flavor. So only one hefeweizen, one ale and lager, only one stout, etc.. The food would be the same way. Do you want chicken, sausage, beef, etc?

You don't think that shot of oktoberfest exudes low key? They're all on bench seats. A sports bar to me is just a bar with enough TV coverage that you can catch the game from most of the seats. Some bars may have a tv or two, but that doesn't make them sports bars. Considering how cheap tv's are I don't think it'd be a big deal.

No, but we may be talking about different things. Have you ever been to a Hofbrau House? Or an Oktoberfest-like fesstival? They are RAUCOUS. It is the picture of drunk and disorderly conduct. Add an oompah band and it's off the hook.

It's a hard business.

DWI laws and overserving, serving minors, sell food or not to sell food, making money, etc etc etc AND after grand opening - keeping the customers coming in.

Worked for several bars, ran one bar/restaurant.

Most of my bosses agreed it takes 5 years to make money.

But it can be fun too.

Can you clarify on the 2nd to last statement of taking 5 years to make money? Do you mean that in the sense that most likely the bar wouldn't be able to get enough foot traffic to operate at a profit on a week by week basis or do you mean generally the profits brought in don't really overcome the initial startup costs for 5 years?

I imagine it's a little bit of both. I imagine if the bar is going to survive then after one year it would at least be able to have enough of a customer base where it will cover the monthly loans and expenses such that it was running positive week by week, but not yet out of the red.

2/3 of all bars fold in the first year, so just bear that in mind.

That said, I think it's a great concept for a bar. The thing you need is a hook to make people want to come in and make them feel welcome, and the O-fest theme is as good as any other. Food? Pretzels & bratwurst, of course! Throw in some wiener schnitzel at dinner time and I think it would be great.

No, but we may be talking about different things. Have you ever been to a Hofbrau House? Or an Oktoberfest-like fesstival? They are RAUCOUS. It is the picture of drunk and disorderly conduct. Add an oompah band and it's off the hook.

Yup. We're talking about different things. :D

When I say low-key I mean the bar isn't fancy. It doesn't have expensive tables and chairs. The food isn't prepared by a 5-star chef, and the drinks don't require more than 1 ingredient.

Essentially it'd be like an essentials only menu. If I had it my way I'd probably have one beer that I thought was the pinnacle of it's flavor. So only one hefeweizen, one ale and lager, only one stout, etc.. The food would be the same way. Do you want chicken, sausage, beef, etc?

Although I have no market research to back this up, there is such a thing as being too limited. What you think is the pinnacle of flavor may not be shared by your customers. I would think that offering at least some choices would maximize your ability to reach a variety of customers.

Essentially it'd be like an essentials only menu. If I had it my way I'd probably have one beer that I thought was the pinnacle of it's flavor. So only one hefeweizen, one ale and lager, only one stout, etc..
Ehh.

See, the reason people are willing to pack into beer halls during Oktoberfest and sit on wooden benches is because of the vast beer selection. Soo...

Not a bar owner, but I frequent a restaurant/bar and talk quite a lot with people (managers, wait staff, bar staff, and hostesses alike) who work there. Some of the staff there are among my closest friends in the San Diego area.

If you're talking about opening a bar now, have you given any thought to the economy? Drinking out and eating out are discretionary expenses, and always among the first things to go. People aren't eating out as much, and they're not spending as much when they do go out. They happily sit there and take up space for a really long time, but if they're not ordering much, there comes a point where those customers are just costing you money. (The cost of checking on them over and over is non-zero, the opportunity cost of letting them stay there is non-zero, and their tab isn't going to grow just because they keep sitting there.) Make sure you factor all that into your business plans.

And do you want regular customers? After all, they're dependable, easy to deal with, and highly profitable. One of each type of beer might be okay, as long as there's a few rotating specials. But I sure wouldn't eat multiple times a week (every week) at a place with only one of each type of dish. To keep regular customers happy, you have to cater to their every desire, or else some other place will. Among other things, that means there has to be enough variety, and you have to be at least passably good at everything.

To me, Rock Bottom, at least the La Jolla branch, does it right. Several beers (some always the same, a few rotating choices, all made on-site), a decent wine list and liquor selection, a really good selection of food (including a specials menu that always has some interesting choices), good staff, lots of high def TVs with all the major sporting events, a few pool tables. They're also ideally situated, right off the freeway, 2 miles from work, 1 mile from home. Their management is also very pro-regulars with their policies (notably, lots of comp'd stuff for regulars). I happily camp out there for many of my dinners, whether or not I'm drinking, spending way too much time and money there. I held my thesis defense party in their private dining room. Invited all my friends, and food and drinks were on me. For my sister's birthday, I asked them for their decadent chocolate cheesecake, uncut (usually sold by the slice only). It was unquestionably the star of her potluck (her first guess was that I bought it from the really expensive steakhouse in the area that I like), and worth every penny of the exorbitant amount they charged. When I finish with my current project, I intend to invite my friends and coworkers to another private party there. And I'm hardly the only person so loyal to them.

Sounds a lot like the Flying Saucer (http://www.beerknurd.com/stores/memphis) in Memphis. Long wooden tables, Small area for a house band and more beers than you can shake a stick at. One of our favorite places in Memphis to hang out. We have been to few of there other locations but none of them match the Memphis location for good fun!!

It's a hard business.
Gospel truth.

I've got seven years in the kitchen, ten behind the bar.

The first two years of owning a restaurant/bar will take 170 hours of your time a week (the two hours of sleep you do get, you'll be dreaming about work).

If you haven't, work for a year in a neighborhood bar to learn the basics, a year in a college bar to learn how to deal with rowdy drunks, a year in a high pressure club to see if you can keep your nose from turning white, and a year in a high zoot fine restaurant to learn how to run with the egos and ambitious.

Although I have no market research to back this up, there is such a thing as being too limited. What you think is the pinnacle of flavor may not be shared by your customers. I would think that offering at least some choices would maximize your ability to reach a variety of customers.

I completely agree. My point is don't see the point in a bar offering Coors Light and Miller Lite. Although they taste differently; they're both very equal beers. I wouldn't stock Harpoon IPA and the Sam Adams IPA as they're most likely both very similar. I'm not saying I'm only going to have 2-3 beers. It'd be good to cover all the bases. So for example I could stock a pale ale, an IPA, porter, stout, wheat, pilsner, brown ale, and a bock. I would imagine that nearly everyone can find something they'd enjoy even if the bar only offered one example from each of those categories.

Not a bar owner, but I frequent a restaurant/bar and talk quite a lot with people (managers, wait staff, bar staff, and hostesses alike) who work there. Some of the staff there are among my closest friends in the San Diego area.

If you're talking about opening a bar now, have you given any thought to the economy? Drinking out and eating out are discretionary expenses, and always among the first things to go. People aren't eating out as much, and they're not spending as much when they do go out. They happily sit there and take up space for a really long time, but if they're not ordering much, there comes a point where those customers are just costing you money. (The cost of checking on them over and over is non-zero, the opportunity cost of letting them stay there is non-zero, and their tab isn't going to grow just because they keep sitting there.) Make sure you factor all that into your business plans.

And do you want regular customers? After all, they're dependable, easy to deal with, and highly profitable. One of each type of beer might be okay, as long as there's a few rotating specials. But I sure wouldn't eat multiple times a week (every week) at a place with only one of each type of dish. To keep regular customers happy, you have to cater to their every desire, or else some other place will. Among other things, that means there has to be enough variety, and you have to be at least passably good at everything.

To me, Rock Bottom, at least the La Jolla branch, does it right. Several beers (some always the same, a few rotating choices, all made on-site), a decent wine list and liquor selection, a really good selection of food (including a specials menu that always has some interesting choices), good staff, lots of high def TVs with all the major sporting events, a few pool tables. They're also ideally situated, right off the freeway, 2 miles from work, 1 mile from home. Their management is also very pro-regulars with their policies (notably, lots of comp'd stuff for regulars). I happily camp out there for many of my dinners, whether or not I'm drinking, spending way too much time and money there. I held my thesis defense party in their private dining room. Invited all my friends, and food and drinks were on me. For my sister's birthday, I asked them for their decadent chocolate cheesecake, uncut (usually sold by the slice only). It was unquestionably the star of her potluck (her first guess was that I bought it from the really expensive steakhouse in the area that I like), and worth every penny of the exorbitant amount they charged. When I finish with my current project, I intend to invite my friends and coworkers to another private party there. And I'm hardly the only person so loyal to them.

Yea I've thought about the economy. I'm in boston and I still see the bars as packed. Even this one bar is packed on mondays/tuesdays and awkward times. Plus, I figure the fact that the bar would offer a different environment from the other bars would make it stand out as a place to try.

My biggest concerns would be getting girls into the bar and what the place would be like during the week. Oktoberfest isn't a very girl friendly environment and since my menu isn't exactly girl friendly it'd be a problem. I can't imagine a lot of girls want to go to a bar where half the menu is meat and the other half is bread. Perhaps my variety would be in allowing people to accurately control the portions. Instead of saying 'I want the chicken' the guest could say 'I'd like two turkey legs.' So you could either have a huge meal of chicken or a small one.

Guys won't go to a bar if the girls don't unless it's a sports bar. So I figure have the large screen tv's to make it a sports bar during the week and for big games on the weekends. If sports are slow then host kareoke night which should draw more women.

I don't want the bar to be completely like oktoberfest in that everyone's goal is to get smashed. I'm just trying to create a fun environment where people go there and it's easy to meet other people and have fun with each others company. Something I'd like to figure out is how to make the seating family style. Would I let a group of 4 take up a whole table which could easily seat 6? Do I seat them there and then throw a group of two into the mix? Would people be up for that? It works in italian restaurants and the japanese restaurants where they cook in front of you. I think it'd be fun. Nothing wrong with meeting new people.

Gospel truth.

I've got seven years in the kitchen, ten behind the bar.

The first two years of owning a restaurant/bar will take 170 hours of your time a week (the two hours of sleep you do get, you'll be dreaming about work).

If you haven't, work for a year in a neighborhood bar to learn the basics, a year in a college bar to learn how to deal with rowdy drunks, a year in a high pressure club to see if you can keep your nose from turning white, and a year in a high zoot fine restaurant to learn how to run with the egos and ambitious.

Yea that's what I'm trying to do. I've applied to three bars thus far. College degrees really are useless these days.

My sister had a bar for about a year. It was a local type of bar/restaurant known as "Lechoneras". They sell food during the day, beer at night and roasted pork at all times. It was back breaking. She sold it and now owns a perfume store.

Stock quality beers, but also look out for the smaller breweries to stock as your rotating specials, or support some home brew enthousiasts by providing a venue for a monthly 'meet' and tasting night.

By supporting the smaller breweries you can get a unique product and be helping them along. People will try a new thing that they can't get anywhere else.

The home-brew crowd would love a venue to show off to their community and they can bring a lot of trade in. You might have to do some investigation on the laws about this though - alcohol made at home might have tax or quality/safety issues.