Advocacy & Safety - a helmet question

Hi all,

I keep seeing people on here say that cycle helmets are only good if you are going 12mph or slower, and that they are not rated for higher speed crashes.

1) Is this true?
2) Is there a helmet out there that is rated higher (full face preferably)?

Thanks

Daven

1) Probably.
2) Yes, a motorcycle helmet. While you are at it, I recommend bandaging yourself with bubble wrap and staying at home.

2) Yes, a motorcycle helmet. While you are at it, I recommend bandaging yourself with bubble wrap and staying at home.

+1. I would also recommend investing in velcro shoe straps, as tripping over shoelaces while staying at home is a potential hazard.

while it may seem a silly question to you guys, I'd rather be a little over cautious than get my face messed up.

Either way, thanks for the info even though it was wrapped in sarcasm.

while it may seem a silly question to you guys, I'd rather be a little over cautious than get my face messed up.

Either way, thanks for the info even though it was wrapped in sarcasm.

Naw, not a silly question, I just don't have a serious answer. Debates about this topic rage on because the problem is there isn't any definitive data on these issues. It comes down to opinion and preference.

As for full-face helmets, not sure of any cycling-specific ones... motorcycle helmets are probably your best bet, but most likely it would be overkill.

Wear a multisport helmet or a downhill cycling helmet?

http://www.bellbikehelmets.com/productCategory.asp?catID=3
http://www.bellbikehelmets.com/productDetail.asp?prodID=8

That's not to say that a bike helmet won't help you in a faster crash - for example, if your hip takes 30mph, your shoulder will have decelerated by the time it hits and your head even more by the time it hits. And even at 30mph, it'll dissipate some of the kinetic energy and any skidding a along pavement slightly more pleasant.

There are full-face bike helmets made for trailing and freestyle cycling. Here's a random example. (http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=25080)

Many folks believe that wearing a bike helmet is a panacea to all possible injuries. Actually, they aren't. They're not designed to help you much if you get smacked head-on by an SUV or run over by a bus, but they'll at least help mitigate brain injury if worn, and worn properly. A couple of years ago there was an article concerning a student who fell in traffic and had his head run over by a deleivery truck. His helmet did its job and prevented the guy's head from being squashed like a melon... but this is a pretty extreme case.

A helmet is part of one layer or component in a multi-faceted approach to crash prevention/accident avoidance. Consider it as a partial hardware solution to a software problem. You can prevent more than 90% of the situations that lead to your really wishing you had worn your helmet on this ride... by taking the software solution:

1. Control your bike so that you don't fall off, or collide with other solid objects.
2. Follow the rules. Obey all traffic signs and signals, and don't be the cause of a colision due to your erratic riding.
3. Discourage the mistakes of others by positioning yourself in the roadway where drivers expect to see other traffic, and ride predictably and alertly.
4. Avoid getting caught up in the calamity when others eventually make mistakes by using bike handling/avoidance manuevers to get out of a crash situation.
5. When all the above fail, survive the crash by using protective gear -- a properly worn helmet, gloves, etc. ... think of them as sort of like your seat belt in a car.

Tom

That is very good advice, thanks. I like to think I do most of that at the moment, and I wear a full face helmet (Giro Remedy) but was just wondering if it will do its job properly. Seems it probably will, although I don't want to find out!

thanks guys

Daven

Oh and remember don't ride in the dark....that hurts. I wish I'd had a full face helmet on last summer.

And even at 30mph, it'll dissipate some of the kinetic energy and any skidding a along pavement slightly more pleasant.


Probably not. Look up rotational injury- one mechanism by which a bike helmet can dramatically worsen brain damage caused in a crash.

A couple of years ago there was an article concerning a student who fell in traffic and had his head run over by a deleivery truck. His helmet did its job and prevented the guy's head from being squashed like a melon... but this is a pretty extreme case.

And that article was completely bogus. Or claims that helmets absorb impact energy by crushing are completely bogus. Think about it. You cannot have something that survives 5+ tons rolling over it but crushes when someone falls over and hits their head.

Many folks believe that wearing a bike helmet is a panacea to all possible injuries. Actually, they aren't. They're not designed to help you much if you get smacked head-on by an SUV or run over by a bus, but they'll at least help mitigate brain injury if worn, and worn properly. A couple of years ago there was an article concerning a student who fell in traffic and had his head run over by a deleivery truck. His helmet did its job and prevented the guy's head from being squashed like a melon... but this is a pretty extreme case.

A helmet is part of one layer or component in a multi-faceted approach to crash prevention/accident avoidance. Consider it as a partial hardware solution to a software problem. You can prevent more than 90% of the situations that lead to your really wishing you had worn your helmet on this ride... by taking the software solution:

1. Control your bike so that you don't fall off, or collide with other solid objects.
2. Follow the rules. Obey all traffic signs and signals, and don't be the cause of a colision due to your erratic riding.
3. Discourage the mistakes of others by positioning yourself in the roadway where drivers expect to see other traffic, and ride predictably and alertly.
4. Avoid getting caught up in the calamity when others eventually make mistakes by using bike handling/avoidance manuevers to get out of a crash situation.
5. When all the above fail, survive the crash by using protective gear -- a properly worn helmet, gloves, etc. ... think of them as sort of like your seat belt in a car.

Tom

6. Learn how to fall down.

6. Learn how to fall down.

Please don't start that again. It's just like the grease a square taper argument.

6. Learn how to fall down.

**** physics, I can will myself into a different direction.

And that article was completely bogus. Or claims that helmets absorb impact energy by crushing are completely bogus. Think about it. You cannot have something that survives 5+ tons rolling over it but crushes when someone falls over and hits their head.

To be honest, they're two entirely different kinds of energy absorption.

To be honest, they're two entirely different kinds of energy absorption.

So what? Are you arguing that the force resulting from falling off a bicycle and hitting your head is even an order of magnitude close to the force a delivery truck would apply while running over your head?

**** physics, I can will myself into a different direction.

Anyone that takes martial arts learns how to fall... it has nothing whatsoever to do with defying physics and everything to do with knowing how your body is moving and how it will impact. While you cannot change direction while in the air, you CAN alter your body position and how you land.

The worst I've ever been injured in a bike crash was riding down a dark street at night with no lights... I couldn't see where the ground was to land properly... every other time I've been able to roll with the fall and not suffered serious injuries (Including getting hit nearly head on by a truck)

Anyone that takes martial arts learns how to fall... it has nothing whatsoever to do with defying physics and everything to do with knowing how your body is moving and how it will impact. While you cannot change direction while in the air, you CAN alter your body position and how you land.

The worst I've ever been injured in a bike crash was riding down a dark street at night with no lights... I couldn't see where the ground was to land properly... every other time I've been able to roll with the fall and not suffered serious injuries (Including getting hit nearly head on by a truck)

I agree with you. I don't see what is so hard about understanding that this is a real technique.
It's used in almost every sport, fighting technique, and general survival training.

what if you are clipped in though - can't really roll with the bike?

Bicycle helmets are tested to absorb the force of a simple fall from 2 meters on a flat surface and from a 1.2 meter drop onto a jagged surface. That's an approximate equivalent speed of a 12 and 9 mph impact.

A higher standard does exist. You can find that standard in a motorcycle helmet.

One of the leading experts in the field wrote a paper for England CTC on the topic that you may find worth reading

http://www.cyclehelmets.org/papers/c2023.pdf

what if you are clipped in though - can't really roll with the bike?

I have. Altho it was slow -- the person in front put on brakes for no reason, i was going slow behind in the paceline, and had no where to go. I rolled over on my back with bike in the air still attached -- and received an ovation from the rest of the line behind me.

So what? Are you arguing that the force resulting from falling off a bicycle and hitting your head is even an order of magnitude close to the force a delivery truck would apply while running over your head?

Sudden impact forces which cause the brain to smack into your skull is EXTREMELY different than a crushing force.


You can build a helmet to take heavy forces, that isn't the problem, the problem is absorbing some of the deceleration of your skull as to protect the brain.

Mainly just saying that the impact forces are quite different, and hence even if the truck fully runs over the guy's head and the helmet protects him, it says nothing as for impact force protection.

Anyone that takes martial arts learns how to fall... it has nothing whatsoever to do with defying physics and everything to do with knowing how your body is moving and how it will impact. While you cannot change direction while in the air, you CAN alter your body position and how you land.

The worst I've ever been injured in a bike crash was riding down a dark street at night with no lights... I couldn't see where the ground was to land properly... every other time I've been able to roll with the fall and not suffered serious injuries (Including getting hit nearly head on by a truck)

Alas someone has been watching too many martial arts movies, you're still dealing in the realms of physics, if you get clipped and go over your bars, or hit hard enough to get a little bit of air on you, there is only so much you can do, and everything you do is going to twist the rest of your body (being as you have no force to act upon). I agree there IS a way to fall to help prevent injuries, but it isn't a guarantee, it's a complete gamble.

You can try, but most of the time you're not going to be able to judo-roll your way out of every encounter.

Sudden impact forces which cause the brain to smack into your skull is EXTREMELY different than a crushing force.

Ok, I agree here.


You can build a helmet to take heavy forces, that isn't the problem, the problem is absorbing some of the deceleration of your skull as to protect the brain.

Still with you.


Mainly just saying that the impact forces are quite different, and hence even if the truck fully runs over the guy's head and the helmet protects him, it says nothing as for impact force protection.

Ok, here's where you completely contradict yourself. Right above you mention how you can build a helmet to take heavy forces but that doesn't help with protecting the brain inside of the skull. How then does a bike helmet, which is touted as being able to absorb impacts and reduce the forces applied to the brain, survive being crushed by a delivery truck?

Alas someone has been watching too many martial arts movies, you're still dealing in the realms of physics, if you get clipped and go over your bars, or hit hard enough to get a little bit of air on you, there is only so much you can do, and everything you do is going to twist the rest of your body (being as you have no force to act upon). I agree there IS a way to fall to help prevent injuries, but it isn't a guarantee, it's a complete gamble.

You can try, but most of the time you're not going to be able to judo-roll your way out of every encounter.

Of course it's a gamble. Everything is a gamble. It's called life. Of course nothing works 100% of the time, but it's better than being the guy who breaks his collar bone when he trips in his front yard.

Has nothing to do with martial arts movies either.

that article linked to is pretty good.

Any links to good tutorials on how to fall?

Here's one, it's for running, but you can apply some of the same things to almost anything.

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-241-285--10850-0,00.html

Here is kind of a more extreme example, but again some things can always be applied to other scenarios.

http://www.wikihow.com/Survive-a-Long-Fall

Then, kind of a funny one, but yeah...

http://www.videojug.com/expertanswer/skateboarding-basics/is-there-a-correct-way-to-fall-from-a-skateboard-or-scooter

Like the last one says, although it sounds silly, don't be afraid of falling. Being tense when you fall only makes things worse. Just try to relax.

Edit: Found a bike specific one finally

http://www.ehow.com/how_13779_fall-mountain-bike.html

that article linked to is pretty good...

are you referring to the "Heads Up" article I linked?