Road Cycling - LBS fitting me right? Seat too low? Frame too big?

I've been riding a late 80s Cannondale that I picked up used; it's a 54cm, which is the size I should be riding according to the measurements I took myself. It feels comfortable, and seems to fit. I set the seat height based on my heels on the pedals - when I'm sitting and I put my heels on the pedals, my leg is straight at its most extended point.

Now, I'm looking for a new bike. I went into the LBS and they put me on a 54, after I told them that was what I rode already. It's a 2004 Cannondale r1000 - the bike I was interested in. The guy who was helping me said that the frame seemed to fit, and it felt pretty good, but he seemed to think the seat had to go waaaay down! It already felt way too low when I was test riding the bike (though the bike felt GREAT in every other way!), and the only reason he didn't set it lower was because it had a curved seatpost! He told me that when I came back in to get the bike fitted, they'd put a straight seatpost on so that they could get the seat lower.

Should the seat really be that low? It felt REALLY low to me! The LBS employee pretty much said, "your old bike is wrong - you'll get used to it." But it felt REALLY low! I've never seen a bike with that little seatpost showing - and he wanted it to go even lower! Should the seat really be that low? I could touch the ground with both feet, easily! And if the seat IS supposed to go that low, shouldn't I be on a 52 instead? I know that most people have way too much seatpost showing - and that was the argument he used. But there was virtually none on this bike! Are they trying to fit me wrong??

There are many theories when it comes to fit but one I hear very often is the .883 ratio, which says your saddle height should .883 of your inseam length. OK, what does that mean?

When I measured myself over at www.wrenchscience.com, they told me that my seat was 3.5 cm too high. I couldn't believe it. But I started lowering it 1 cm per week and now it's where they recommended - .883.

And you know what - it felt strange at first but now I am a stronger, better balanced rider. Do the fitting at WS and compare notes.

55/Rad

I've been riding a late 80s Cannondale that I picked up used; it's a 54cm, which is the size I should be riding according to the measurements I took myself. It feels comfortable, and seems to fit. I set the seat height based on my heels on the pedals - when I'm sitting and I put my heels on the pedals, my leg is straight at its most extended point.

Now, I'm looking for a new bike. I went into the LBS and they put me on a 54, after I told them that was what I rode already. It's a 2004 Cannondale r1000 - the bike I was interested in. The guy who was helping me said that the frame seemed to fit, and it felt pretty good, but he seemed to think the seat had to go waaaay down! It already felt way too low when I was test riding the bike (though the bike felt GREAT in every other way!), and the only reason he didn't set it lower was because it had a curved seatpost! He told me that when I came back in to get the bike fitted, they'd put a straight seatpost on so that they could get the seat lower.

Should the seat really be that low? It felt REALLY low to me! The LBS employee pretty much said, "your old bike is wrong - you'll get used to it." But it felt REALLY low! I've never seen a bike with that little seatpost showing - and he wanted it to go even lower! Should the seat really be that low? I could touch the ground with both feet, easily! And if the seat IS supposed to go that low, shouldn't I be on a 52 instead? I know that most people have way too much seatpost showing - and that was the argument he used. But there was virtually none on this bike! Are they trying to fit me wrong??

You should have 4 to 5 inches of seat post showing on a properly fitting frame. If you are able to easily touch the ground with both feet while seated, that seat is way too low.

You should have 4 to 5 inches of seat post showing on a properly fitting frame. If you are able to easily touch the ground with both feet while seated, that seat is way too low.

See, the first part of that is yet another rule of thumb, just like using the old heel on the pedal bit. It may or may not apply to everyone. Although, I agree that measuring saddle height by seeing if you can put your feet on the ground while on the saddle is just wrong. What kind of standover do you have with the frame? With the saddle at the position that the LBS set it, what kind of extension do you get in your leg with each pedalstroke? How does it fit your upper body?

Who put the BS in LBS? If may have been your LBS guy because he's wrong. If you can touch the ground easily with both feet on a regular road bike, your seat is too low.

I have read about a number of different ways to determine the optimum seat height on a road bike. In a nutshell, you'd like your leg to be almost but not quite fully extended at the bottom of the pedal stroke. If you do that, you'll be able to just barely touch the toes of both feet to the ground on each side of your bike.

Greg LeMond says the center to center size a non-sloping frame should be 66.666% of your inseam measurement

I have about an inch of standover height with the frame, and it feels fine on my upper body. But the way the guy at the LBS wants to set the seat up, there's at most an inch of seatpost showing, and I can touch the ground with both feet. Maybe I DO need the saddle to be low like that - but doesn't that mean I should be on a smaller frame? The LBS guy seems to think that since I'm riding a 54cm Cannondale right now, I should definitely get the new bike in a 54 - is he right?

I have about an inch of standover height with the frame, and it feels fine on my upper body. But the way the guy at the LBS wants to set the seat up, there's at most an inch of seatpost showing, and I can touch the ground with both feet. Maybe I DO need the saddle to be low like that - but doesn't that mean I should be on a smaller frame? The LBS guy seems to think that since I'm riding a 54cm Cannondale right now, I should definitely get the new bike in a 54 - is he right?

That sounds strange - try the fitting system on wrenchscience.com. Good luck.

Here's another frame size calculator based on the Greg LeMond method: http://www.totalbike.com/service/frame_size.php

I'm sure most contributors to this site would say that 1 inch of post is too little. All my bikes (slightly different sizes) have about 5 or 6 inches of seat-post exposed.

It may be that the new bike has a lower bottom bracket or longer cranks. Both will but your 6:00 pedal closer to the ground, so you need your saddle lower.
The critical dimension with bike fit is length. If you know what is comfortable for you, make sure the new bike has the same reach from saddle to bars.

It is possible they are trying to fit you to the frame size they have in stock, ask to try a size smaller and see how it fits, or if in fact they don't have a size smaller and are unloading the one they have. I never thought I would fit on a 60 but my new bike is and boy is it comfie! Point being I wouldn't have found out if they didn't have 3 sizes same medel for me to try out! If you have doubts now, they may linger and sour your decision over time, nothing worse than buyer's remorse that you could have prevented.

I agree with those that are suggesting that they might be tryin' to fit you on what they have to get rid of it. While I'm a big defender of good shops, I had a shop sell me a 57c bike once. It was just waaay to small. If you have another Cannondale dealer around, it might not be a bad idea to drop in and see what they say.

Remember, though, that Cannondales do seem to run a bit large. I dont' have a lot of seatpost showing, but it's set up so I can spin comfortably and it fits everywhere.

I have about an inch of standover height with the frame, and it feels fine on my upper body. But the way the guy at the LBS wants to set the seat up, there's at most an inch of seatpost showing, and I can touch the ground with both feet. Maybe I DO need the saddle to be low like that - but doesn't that mean I should be on a smaller frame? The LBS guy seems to think that since I'm riding a 54cm Cannondale right now, I should definitely get the new bike in a 54 - is he right?

With an inch of standover height on the frame it should be pretty close to the correct size for you. Then if the LBS wants to setup the seat at only 1" of seat post showing and you can touch the ground with your feet while seated, that is clearly WRONG. As others have stated use the formulas posted for seat height or the method that you mentioned before using heal to pedal to get in the ballpark then adjust as necessary. Don't let them convince you that the low saddle is correct because it is totally wrong and they are clueless. If possible try another LBS if not and you like the bike buy it and don't take their advice. Another option is to ask for assistance from someone else and hopefully you will get someone with a clue. Good Luck

John

I did some measurements and some research; here's what I found.

I tried the Wrenchscience fit guide, as well as the Zinn one, long ago: that's how I arrived at the 54cm figure when I bought my used bike. Wrenchscience gives the figure of 54cm center to top, while Zinn says I should be on a 52cm. I tried the 54cm, and thought it fit really well; the Wrenchscience guide also takes more measurements, so I figured it would be more accurate. I guess this means that I'm really in between, and so I should definitely be trying a 52 as well. I'm going back in on Thursday for a longer test ride (and hopefully to purchase the bike, if the fit issues are resolved), and I'll insist on trying a 52 as well.

The wrenchscience guide says my seat height should be 71cm. The Zinn guide says 88cm. Today, I lowered the saddle on my old bike to see if it really was an issue of getting used to it. That does seem to be part of it - I feel like I'm rocking less and have more power in my stroke. But the saddle still feels too low. I measured it when I got home, and it's at 68cm. Even though this is lower than the Wrenchscience estimate and much lower than that given by Zinn, it was still higher than where the LBS employee thought the saddle should go! I'll raise the saddle up to the height given by Wrenchscience tomorrow, and try that - I think it'll be just about perfect.

However, at that height, there are just two inches of seatpost showing (on my old bike). I attached a picture of the way the saddle and bars are set up now (with the saddle just a little lower than it should be). It really seems like I should be on a 52! What do you guys think? The reach on the 54 really does seem to suit me, but maybe I'm too stretched out or I could ride a 52 with a longer stem.

I honestly couldnt tell you, all I know is when I have had all my bikes fit for me they told me you should have a min of 1" between the top post and you cajonies, they adjusted my seat where there was a very slight bend in my knee so my knee was not fully extended straight, they adjusted the handlebars height according to my seated postion on the bike, I dont recall if they said the handle bar should be 1" below the seat or above the seat, and when I look at it , it looks even with the seat. anyway ask someone else at the lbs if you are unsure...
I am sure there is more than one guy that can help you with the fitting...
good luck and ride safe

The wrenchscience guide says my seat height should be 71cm. The Zinn guide says 88cm.
The Zinn guide includes the crank length, thus the discrepancy.

55/Rad

I did some measurements and some research; here's what I found.

I tried the Wrenchscience fit guide, as well as the Zinn one, long ago: that's how I arrived at the 54cm figure when I bought my used bike. Wrenchscience gives the figure of 54cm center to top, while Zinn says I should be on a 52cm. I tried the 54cm, and thought it fit really well; the Wrenchscience guide also takes more measurements, so I figured it would be more accurate. I guess this means that I'm really in between, and so I should definitely be trying a 52 as well. I'm going back in on Thursday for a longer test ride (and hopefully to purchase the bike, if the fit issues are resolved), and I'll insist on trying a 52 as well.

The wrenchscience guide says my seat height should be 71cm. The Zinn guide says 88cm. Today, I lowered the saddle on my old bike to see if it really was an issue of getting used to it. That does seem to be part of it - I feel like I'm rocking less and have more power in my stroke. But the saddle still feels too low. I measured it when I got home, and it's at 68cm. Even though this is lower than the Wrenchscience estimate and much lower than that given by Zinn, it was still higher than where the LBS employee thought the saddle should go! I'll raise the saddle up to the height given by Wrenchscience tomorrow, and try that - I think it'll be just about perfect.

However, at that height, there are just two inches of seatpost showing (on my old bike). I attached a picture of the way the saddle and bars are set up now (with the saddle just a little lower than it should be). It really seems like I should be on a 52! What do you guys think? The reach on the 54 really does seem to suit me, but maybe I'm too stretched out or I could ride a 52 with a longer stem.

What is your inseam measured in centimeters? Also take a look at this very basic fit guide located at Colorado Cyclist it may help: http://www.coloradocyclist.com/BikeFit/index.cfm . It is hard to tell if your seat is too low or pretty close without you on the bike on a trainer so we can see your leg extension. If you have an inch of clearance over the top tube of your bike shown in the picture I would have to say your saddle is still too low. The bar to seat drop looks pretty good but if you raise your saddle you may want to raise your bars as well so they are about 1"-2" below the saddle height. Also make sure you are doing your measurements properly for saddle height from center of BB to top of saddle.

Quoted from Colorado Cyclist: With the right frame size, you’ll be able to set your correct saddle height, which will be within a centimeter of .883 x inseam length, measured from the center of the bottom bracket to the low point of the top of your saddle. This allows full leg extension, with a slight bend in the leg at the bottom of the pedal stroke.

The Zinn guide includes the crank length, thus the discrepancy.

55/Rad

If that is so then he is still 3cm lower than what wrench science recommended which is more than an inch which is quite a bit. Also that frame is deceiving because it has an extended seat collar which makes it look like there is not much seatpost showing. I agree with trying the seat at 71cm from center of BB.

Not sure what his crank length is but assuming it is a 170 mm, 71 + 17 = 88. The Zinn system does tend to stretch out the reach a bit further than the Wrenchscience system.

55/Rad

I set the saddle height to 71cm and tried riding it. It felt perfect. It's just a little lower than I had it with the heel-on-the-pedal method. I know the collar extends pretty high up, and that's why I wasn't concerned with the fact that only a few inches of seatpost were showing on that bike - but the new bike has a very low seatpost collar. The saddle at 71cm really felt perfect to me, and the LBS guy definitely wanted to set the saddle a LOT lower. Anyway, I'll go back to the shop on Thursday and see what happens; I feel a lot more confident about what needs to happen with the fit now, and I think I'm prepared to call BS if they're doing it wrong. Thanks so much to everyone that has helped out!

I think I'm prepared to call BS if they're doing it wrong.

Now, now, there's no need to get into it with your LBS. Fitting is only as good as the person doing it. Everybody configures their bike differently. Some like more knee bend, some like the saddle further back, and some like longer reach. He's prolly fitted you the way that's comfortable for him when he rides. Just ask them to adjust the seatpost, saddle, and stem the way it's comfortable for you when you test ride. If they suggest a different position, just tell them, "Thanks, but I'm more comfortable with this set up."

You've already done your homework and know the frame sizes that will work for you. Now just play with the settings on both frames until you feel very comfortable riding. Just me 2 cents. :)

I dunno, eagleeye, if a shop tries to fit its customers by seeing if their feet can reach the ground from the saddle, there's an issue somewhere.

I dunno, eagleeye, if a shop tries to fit its customers by seeing if their feet can reach the ground from the saddle, there's an issue somewhere.

Agreed, but obviously the guy doing the fitting doesn't know what he's doing. So, arguing with him won't do any good. Instead, I'd talk to the manager and let him know about it. I'd leave it up to the manager to decide if he will let that fit anymore people or retrain/train him. My point is not to get into an argument with someone who doesn't know what the hell they're doing, but think they do. This won't get you anywhere except more pissed, which is not good when you are testing your new ride. Test riding a new bike should always be a pleasant experience, otherwise you may pass up the bike that's perfect for you, 'cuz you were to pissed off to enjoy the test ride.

The one thing this thread has provided all of us is that there is no "right" way. There is a range of perfection that exists for everyone. It boosts my confidence with my current setup because after I was fitted twice by two reputable shops, who were both pretty much on the money with one another, I've found myself migrating back to my current position. My seat pushed up "too far" and "a bit too high" but it's where I feel I get the best power and endurance and just feels right and I believe that while physiologically I may be less effecient, the comfort or perceived better position more than makes up for it.

Now, now, there's no need to get into it with your LBS. Fitting is only as good as the person doing it. Everybody configures their bike differently. Some like more knee bend, some like the saddle further back, and some like longer reach. He's prolly fitted you the way that's comfortable for him when he rides. Just ask them to adjust the seatpost, saddle, and stem the way it's comfortable for you when you test ride. If they suggest a different position, just tell them, "Thanks, but I'm more comfortable with this set up."

You've already done your homework and know the frame sizes that will work for you. Now just play with the settings on both frames until you feel very comfortable riding. Just me 2 cents. :)

Minor inaccuracies can be tolerated and are probably part of the fitment process. However, if someone were to walk in off the street and pay for a fitting I would how that the shop would be able to reproducably get you within 98% of the perfect fit. It doesn't sound like this is Yakman's experience and I would be upset too.

-mark

Just to clarify, they didn't set the saddle height *by* having me put my feet on the ground. They just set it low enough that it just so *happened* I was able to put my feet there. The guy was setting the saddle height by looking at my feet on the pedals and the way my leg bends. I think that he just looked at it wrong - my baggy shorts may have confused him, he said. Anyway, I don't think he's totally incompetant. I'll find out later today when I go back in!

It is possible they are trying to fit you to the frame size they have in stock, ask to try a size smaller and see how it fits, or if in fact they don't have a size smaller and are unloading the one they have. I never thought I would fit on a 60 but my new bike is and boy is it comfie! Point being I wouldn't have found out if they didn't have 3 sizes same medel for me to try out! If you have doubts now, they may linger and sour your decision over time, nothing worse than buyer's remorse that you could have prevented.

This is what I was about to say.... You stole my thunder. When I went in for a fitting last week at the LBS, they had a 55' Bianchi which I thought felt good. They really wanted to sell me that model but I wanted an Eros and told them to order me a new one. Guess what? After fitting me correctly, they told me I was a 53! Can you believe that! If I had said nothing, I would have walked out the LBS with a 55 and it would have been too big!

My advice. If you don't know your correct fit, don't buy the display bike . EVER! Test ride several bikes then have the LBS order you a new one!

I started riding with couple of guys lately and one told me that my seat was too high... I have been riding like that for a full year so that was a shocker to me. I also have hamstring pain on one side and hip flexor pain on the other, along with back spasms here and there off the bike. It occured to me that I needed a professionnal bike fit done. Now the guys at the bike shop, IMHO are useless. They sell bike. At most, they sell bike to Mr and Mrs Sunday rider, not those people that ride more seriously. When I bought my Trek 5200, the guy that helped me out wanted to adjust the seat to roughly a good fit wanted me to sit on and try to touch the ground and make sure I could. I was so offended!

I paid what I think a reasonnable amount of money to get me fitted to my bikes, and indeed my seat was 2 cm too high, which is significant and enough to create all kinds of problems to your legs and back. Both my bikes have been adjusted the same so there is not too much difference and I am getting used to it now, and my position on the bike is much better for what it's supposed to be. My handle bars have been shortened as well and changed the stem on the new 5200 to a 120 mm, where the bike shop guy thought it would be too long for me and he didn't want to sell it to me.

I would recommend to anyone that is serious about cycling to get a professionnal bike fit. Some of the measurements you can't do by yourself. It is all worth it.

Kati, who loves her 5200 and who will ride her 520 across Canada this summer!

All methods of fitting a bike are 'rule of thumb'.

I've fit thousands of bikes over the years and have seen and heard it all.

Two things have caught my attention. First was this quote: "I seem to rock less" If you 'rock in the saddle' your seats to high. Second, the picture of the Cannondale...is that seat height at which you 'rock' in the saddle?

What is your height?
What is your blue jean size? (length only...no need to know your weight)
What is your sleeve length on a dress shirt?

Oh yea...go to a different shop....

Something many cyclists have difficult time understanding is frame size. Because there is not standard for frame geometry or for measuring a bike or a person a cyclist can ride 2, 3, or 4 different sizes depending how the frame is contructed and measured.

In reality you should be measuring how high the top tube is off the ground (standover height) versus the length of the seattube.

Standover height takes into account the differences in bottom bracket height and measuring methods. If you measure your inseam length your standover height should be less than that. The numerical value assigned the frame is is irrelevant.

Example: 3 bikes, all with 75cm standover heights.

Bike 1 has a BB height of 25 cm and is measured C to C.
Bike 2 has a BB height of 24 cm and is measured C to Top.
Bike 3 has a BB height of 26 cm and has a sloping top tube.

If bike 1 is a 54cm, bike 2 would be a 56cm and bike 3 would be a 52? So, which will it be? They all have the same standover heights....the one thats most comfortable.

I agree with those that are suggesting that they might be tryin' to fit you on what they have to get rid of it. While I'm a big defender of good shops, I had a shop sell me a 57c bike once. It was just waaay to small. If you have another Cannondale dealer around, it might not be a bad idea to drop in and see what they say.

Remember, though, that Cannondales do seem to run a bit large. I dont' have a lot of seatpost showing, but it's set up so I can spin comfortably and it fits everywhere.

My Cannondale has at least an inch of seat tube above the top of the top tube, causing less seat post to show. My Bianchi, with exactly the same dimensions as my Cannondale, has the seat tube cut off even with the top of the top tube, causing more seat post to show. When I put the two bikes side by side, the C'dale definitely has the illusion of too little seat post.