Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Let me think out loud for a second...

Hrrmm.....that was good pasta.

Anyway, I've just finished the tech drawings for the '04/5 Thylacine 221 singlespeeds. They look pretty snazzy for a semi sort of kinda maybe stock frame. 4 new colours, now 5 sizes instead of 4. Sweeeeet.

Now onto the fixie. Okay so I'm toying with adding an 'Urban Fixie / road singlespeed' to my humble lineup. I dub thee.......JustOneFix - after my old affinity for all things Ministry as well as noticing most fixie riders are borderline retro junkies. Or just plain junkies? Who knows.

Now I realise that the market for track bikes is super small, so I'm wondering if I should have a stock geometry option, or just stick to custom? I like the idea of having two frames in my affordable 'One Speed' lineup, but I envisage not many people will be happy with stock. I'm picturing getting questions like "Can I have one with cable routing?", "Can you do one with no decals?", and "Can you do a funny bike?".

The whole idea of these bikes is simple. Nobody really has an appreciation of how much time custom takes. The difference bewteen a semi stock say US$750 frame and a US$1050-$1200 frame, is largely the hours spent in design and consultation with the customer. ( My last customer took a month to design his frame and we traded close to 60 emails ) With these frames I'm trying to bring handmade quality and top shelf design, down to a level where the frames are still excellent value, yet are still sustainable for me as an owner of a small bike company. Make sense?

Anyway, let me hear your thoughts on custom steel fixies. In the meantime, I'm going to make a coffee and prepare for the onslaught of good feedback. That finger means I'm number one, right?

My dream would be somewhere between road and track geomety, detailed chrome lugs, and a stright fork. This the frame I dream about when alone in the dark. I took a gandering at your current line up, you got some purdy frames there.

btw. feel free to tell my momma, she knows.

Chris

I've done a few TIG'd frames in matte nickel, but not chrome. Chrome is a disaster. Oh, and probably not likely to appear on 'affordable' frames anytime soon, either.

I'm with you on the straight fork though. Straight forks are MEAN.

Guerrilla finish options and funky dropouts.

Matt black and no decals - just a nice pewter headbadge? Definitely an option. Funky dropouts? Errmmm.

Well, by funky dropouts I reall only mean something with a little character. The glory is in the details.

Matt black and no decals - just a nice pewter headbadge? Definitely an option. Funky dropouts? Errmmm.

Paint like that, I'd buy the bike just because.

Priding myself on being different, I was looking at 4 colours - 'Espresso' a very, very dark brown, 'Ivory' an off white like the old Bridgestones, 'Molteni Orange' and 'Khaki'. All semi gloss.

What about geometry? Does anyone have any firm ideas on what they thinks works in the urban fixie context?

Paint like that, I'd buy the bike just because.
you sound like yoda. knock it off.

Hey Seppo Hater-
I would run stock sizing for starters. If someone wants cable routing, send them zipties.
And for the love of (insert diety here), level the toptube...

Call me a girl if you like but I like 'Taxi Cab Yellow' like on the Van Dessel Straight Up. It kind of goes with that, 'riding super fast commuter' theme.

Do up like 4 stock sizes. You don't have to have them all built when I call, but I'm one of those guys who doesn't really want to pay $200 extra to have you custom design a frame for me when a stock size/geometry bike will work just fine. For me anyway.
I want straight blades, skinny steel tubes, As close a tire clearance as you can get and still run brakes front and rear (if I'm into that) but don't actually drill the holes for the brakes unless they want it.
I'm looking for something between custom and production. I don't need to consult with you about that extra half centimeter in top tube length or half degree in seat tube angle, but I'd like to choose my color and whether the bike has bottle braze ons and brake holes.
Think of it like this, stock bike, I fill in three blanks: color, bottle braze ons, brake holes front/rear. Then I wait 6 weeks or so and you throw the bike together on a standard jig in your free time and charge me a stock bike price since you din't have to do any extra design work. Maybe a little extra since you have to paint the bikes one a a time but......
How does that sound?

Priding myself on being different, I was looking at 4 colours - 'Espresso' a very, very dark brown, 'Ivory' an off white like the old Bridgestones, 'Molteni Orange' and 'Khaki'. All semi gloss.

What about geometry? Does anyone have any firm ideas on what they thinks works in the urban fixie context?

very good color choices

I'm not 100% qualified, but wouldn't a nice mix between MTB geometry and track geometery be ideal for urban riding? I think there is only one way to find out...cook up one of those nice frames you have, send it to me, and I will tell you if its good or not!! (weak attempt at a free Thylacine, your bikes are SAWEET!)

As for the geometry of a "urban assault" bike I would hae to say that keeping it a little bit slack would be nice. I don't mean touring bike slack either. The thing is that so many of us here ride old converted road bikes that have horizontal drops and we don't really know the difference in a "real track bike" and its geometry. Heck I probably wouldn't notice any differences really and I am not sure that I wouldbe totally comfortable on a true track bike on the street.

Someone correct me if I am wrong here, but isn't the Surly Steamroller a little bit on the relaxed side with it's geometry, thus making it a comfortable city rider. Those bikes seem to be hugely popular, even if they are a house brand for QBP.

Tires. Please let me run some wide tires on there! Here in the city it is much better to run a little bit wider tire, it just seems a bit more comfortable. Not really looking for extreme here, but I normally run 700x28's with a set of full fenders. That is another thing, if it really is for an urban assault bike then make it so that there is the option for fenders, the little eyelets on the forks.

Just my 2 cents, whether any of it makes any sense, who knows..thanks.

I would like:
-straight or almost straight fork with a lugged crown
-chromed or accented lugs
-small diameter tubes
-beautiful dropouts
-close tyre clearance
-high bottom bracket
-threaded headset
-horizontal top tube
-geometry between an aggresive roadbike and track
-no brake cable routing
-decent sizes e.g something in the 63cm region

I like familyman's suggestion of being able to customise things like bottle cage mounts etc. For specific urban fixie I'd want none, but for a winter training fixie I'd want one and I'd also want mudguards and a more relaxed geometry.

The only problem I have with the geometry of the steamroller is that the top tube is too long. If I ride the 56 I have to put the seat way up and farther away from the bars. If I ride the 59 the bars are just too far away to start with. Maybe I'm just an odd body type, but I'm 6'1'' and my ideal frame would be a 58x56 with fairly tight (track) geomerty. I also like to have the bars several inches below the seat so maybe I'm not the ideal model for a city rider. I've had a hard time finding bikes with this kind of geometry, and the more relaxed bikes just exacorbate the problem.
on a side note, a flat top tobe is MANDATORY and I'd even love to see a production bike with a slight drop toward the bars like a throwback to the old funny bikes. Something small, like a cm or two that would just be noticeable but easily corrected by raising the stem if you don't like it.
But like I said, I'm not a standard city rider. I only ride my bike 10-12 miles at a time and I have to admit its not the most comfortable set-up.

I am a big fan of same x same geometry when it comes to seat and top tubes. And cheers for the Molteni Orange choice there Big Orange. I guess evolution is well inbred in Australian.

I don't think it works for bigger frames though, if I were to get a 60x60 I'd need a ton of spacers on the bars and an even bigger seatpost (I normally have to run seatposts designed for compact frames on non compact frames), whilst a 63x63 would be way too stretched out, so a 62x60 or 63x60 or 64x61's just about right for me.

As I reveiw my options and have narrowed it down, geometery becomes second place to design function and durability. The average person here can spew geometry for hours, but doesn't know trail from head tube angle relationships from thier ass and a hole in the ground. If you took two bikes with slight changes in geometry, put the seat and the handle bars in roughly the same spot most of us, my self included, couldn't feel the difference. Some could, but most of those are extremest who buy 5000 dollar merlin bikes anyway.

As far as brake cables for the back, why don't you set it up for internal running, with plugs that can cover the holes for those that don't use it. Place them in an obscure place a viola, there you go.

Paint. Screw fancy paint. Paint them with some sort of truck bedliner like material. Such that when locked up, no one has a concern about the odd chip, etc. Not a race bike per se anyway, right? Go with the durable vision: a bike to outlast the fad so to speak.

As I have reviewed whats around and available, I go for what seems to be durable, good handling, good power transfer, and decent ride. For a frame, I want a frame that the manfact stands behind. Not some cheasy "break it we replace it" type of deal.

Custom frames have got to be a money drainer for the cost you're laying out: to much time, to many variables. You're an angel perhaps for wanting to, but killing your self time wise, and burning out.. that'd suck. I've seen it happen in custom knife makers (Elshiwetz (spelling) for one has finally given customs up after trying to balance custom and decent price).. I guess it could happen with bikes.

I'd say get the line up on a few options for frames, and for options, add the odd thing people may want, water bottle holders, etc.

And dig it on the durable paint issue. Un tapped markette, next big thing, or?

']I am a big fan of same x same geometry when it comes to seat and top tubes. And cheers for the Molteni Orange choice there Big Orange. I guess evolution is well inbred in Australian.

I agree. I'm one of those tall freaks that needs a longer top tube than seat tube (ST=60, TT= 61) but it would be dumb for thylacine to build his frames for my body type. With long upper body, I have a high c.o.g. so pushing the seat back is a double win... effectively longer top tube and slacker seat tube angle. Folks with long legs could pull the seat forward and also achieve the double win.

I think 73 degrees would be the ideal seat tube angle in the neutral position. Head tube of 74 degrees. The bottom bracket drop should be in the 68 cm range. Not hard core track but not touring either. Maybe tweak the head tube angle/rake/trail to allow for 175mm cranks with little or no overlap. and a short ( but not track short) wheelbase.

Oh yeah, don't go crazy accommodating overly fat tires ..... say 700x28c max?

Jim

Oh man Oh man.... I go out of my way to bite my tongue (err keyboard) but sometimes.....


As I reveiw my options and have narrowed it down, geometery becomes second place to design function and durability.

I think they're all equally important.


The average person here can spew geometry for hours, but doesn't know trail from head tube angle relationships from thier ass and a hole in the ground.

Maybe but geometry IS important for a lot of people. I've seen a photo of you and you appear to built the way most bike makers think everyone should be (or are) so I'm not surprised geometry is of secondary concern for you....lucky you.

Besides, in Thylacine's original post he does mention geometry as in: ".....so I'm wondering if I should have a stock geometry option, or just stick to custom?" So I figure it's on the table.

It also depends on the type of riding you do. I can ride my Steamroller for about 20 miles before I start to have hand and wrist problems but I can ride my Rodriquez for 60 without any problems.... and I think 20-30 miles is a reasonable distance to think about for an 'urban assault' bike.


If you took two bikes with slight changes in geometry, put the seat and the handle bars in roughly the same spot most of us, my self included, couldn't feel the difference. Some could, but most of those are extremest who buy 5000 dollar merlin bikes anyway.

See above.


As far as brake cables for the back, why don't you set it up for internal running, with plugs that can cover the holes for those that don't use it. Place them in an obscure place a viola, there you go.

Now this would be a nice touch.


As I have reviewed whats around and available, I go for what seems to be durable, good handling, good power transfer, and decent ride.

Gee, all that with no thought to geometry....it must me magic.


For a frame, I want a frame that the manfact stands behind. Not some cheasy "break it we replace it" type of deal.

Another good point.


Custom frames have got to be a money drainer for the cost you're laying out: to much time, to many variables. You're an angel perhaps for wanting to, but killing your self time wise, and burning out.. that'd suck. I've seen it happen in custom knife makers (Elshiwetz (spelling) for one has finally given customs up after trying to balance custom and decent price).. I guess it could happen with bikes.

For all of the cost an effort I assume he got into bike building because he liked doing customs otherwise he would be importing frames from Taiwan and selling them....but he can choose to speak to that.


I'd say get the line up on a few options for frames, and for options, add the odd thing people may want, water bottle holders, etc.

So if people suggest water bottle mounts or paint type or cable routing that's OK but if someone mentions geometry that's not?

So here's the deal, you're entitled to your opinions but lay off ridiculing others for theirs. You want to disagree? great ... keep it civil.

Jim

Oh man Oh man.... I go out of my way to bite my tongue (err keyboard) but sometimes.....
I think they're all equally important.
Maybe but geometry IS important for a lot of people. I've seen a photo of you and you appear to built the way most bike makers think everyone should be (or are) so I'm not surprised geometry is of secondary concern for you....lucky you.
Besides, in Thylacine's original post he does mention geometry as in: ".....so I'm wondering if I should have a stock geometry option, or just stick to custom?" So I figure it's on the table.
It also depends on the type of riding you do. I can ride my Steamroller for about 20 miles before I start to have hand and wrist problems but I can ride my Rodriquez for 60 without any problems.... and I think 20-30 miles is a reasonable distance to think about for an 'urban assault' bike.
For all of the cost an effort I assume he got into bike building because he liked doing customs otherwise he would be importing frames from Taiwan and selling them....but he can choose to speak to that.
So here's the deal, you're entitled to your opinions but lay off ridiculing others for theirs. You want to disagree? great ... keep it civil.
Jim

Jim,

No one said I knew what the hell I was talking about, especially not me. I may be the "average build" compared to most, or not. I'm not sure, as I don't usaully size my self up compared to others. Am I lucky because of that? I'd rather have a full hairline to be honest. I base my comments on geometry to the almost silly amount of geom changes made in the last few years in bikes.. I don't think people really know all that much and can tell all the much change wise. I could be wrong, but I think a lot of it is mental.

When I talk about power transfer, and comfort, I'm more refering to frame materail. My 80's bianchi and 99 Cannondale are completely different geom wise, but they handle different mainly due to frame materail. The AL frame seems to put all the power (what ever limited amount I may have at least) to the ground, while the bianchi is noodlely, to the point of almost wobbly. Conversely, the AL frame is jarring over rough surfaces, and the bianchi is smooth. In my humble opinion, this has everything to do with frame material and not geometry.

And I really didn't mean to slam people who talk about geometry.. just a lot of people on the internet read and repeat. They really don't know jack about what they repeat either. Point in fact, AL frame failures, people go ON and ON about how AL will fail. But none have been able to post pictures, etc. I spent a good two weeks calling EVERY SHOP (well, almsot) in San Diego County about AL failures and found NONE that had reported cases. Even from shops that don't sell AL frames. That said, next time I get on the cannondale, it will fall to pieces. I am, beta man after all.

Good handling for the average person like me, can be found in a wide variety of geom, I'm sure. This was an off the cuff remark that is not founded on any given fact, so perhaps I should retract it. But I'm pretty solid that most wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

You're dead on with the comments on custom frames.

I've re read my comments, and don't really see where I'm slamming anyone in particular. It wasn't my intent, though, really, it doesn't concern me much if I ruffle feathers. At times, a heated debate will bring up good points and open the eyes of many.

Beyond all my BS talk, it was input. He is, even in OZ, able to take what he likes, and chuck the rest out the window. My opinion is probably not even worth 2 cents there.

']you sound like yoda. knock it off.

You type like jarhead.

Jim,
...

And I really didn't mean to slam people who talk about geometry.. just a lot of people on the internet read and repeat. They really don't know jack about what they repeat either. Point in fact, AL frame failures, people go ON and ON about how AL will fail. But none have been able to post pictures, etc. ...


thats an interesting point. check out this page:
http://www.efbe.de/erenn.htm

they test lightweight frames with repeated stress cycles. there is not a single steel frame in the
top list. and suprisingly lots of aluminium. nowadays steel cannot compete in the weight category.
but i remember that they used to test steel frames years ago. and not a single one made it to the top.
at that time not even titanium frames made it to the top. but cannondale did!
i have to add that i prefer steel and titanium but these tests show that there are a lot of myths floating
around.

i have to add that i prefer steel and titanium but these tests show that there are a lot of myths floating around.

While I love AL, and I'm sure it's strong enough, I had to stand back and re thing once I saw a cut away of an AL frame. Thin... thin... thin... Made me cringe, and partially understand why people would assume failure is common.

That said, my next frame: steel.

just my 2 cents:

I say do steel, with skinnier tubing, track geometry, level top tube, short wheel base, tight clearance, and a straight fork...maybe some water bottle braze ons....but no cable routers for a rear brake.

William...

Thanks for the reply. If I misunderstood your post, I apologize. Like you said, it's all up to Thylacine to keep what he wants and chuck the rest. Speaking for myself, I really enjoy reading and learning about and experimenting with all things bicycle and am lucky enough to live in a city with lot's of builders and cool LBS's to talk to and learn from. Of course there's the net too (which is best used with some internal filtering I suppose). None of that however, makes me a bike designer/builder, but I do like to share the info I've collected with others because I only learn when someone else is willing to share their knowlege with me.... and I know your cool with that too.

Jim

PS my apologies for using the word "share" twice in this post ;-)

William...

Thanks for the reply. If I misunderstood your post, I apologize. Like you said, it's all up to Thylacine to keep what he wants and chuck the rest. Speaking for myself, I really enjoy reading and learning about and experimenting with all things bicycle and am lucky enough to live in a city with lot's of builders and cool LBS's to talk to and learn from. Of course there's the net too (which is best used with some internal filtering I suppose). None of that however, makes me a bike designer/builder, but I do like to share the info I've collected with others because I only learn when someone else is willing to share their knowlege with me.... and I know your cool with that too.

Jim

PS my apologies for using the word "share" twice in this post ;-)

Jim,

No worries. I'm a dickhead, and everyone here will confirm it!

I wanted to see a knife fight

']I wanted to see a knife fight

If you're ever in San Diego, let me take you to the trolley station, or better yet some other local places...

thats an interesting point. check out this page:
http://www.efbe.de/erenn.htm

they test lightweight frames with repeated stress cycles. there is not a single steel frame in the
top list. and suprisingly lots of aluminium. nowadays steel cannot compete in the weight category.
but i remember that they used to test steel frames years ago. and not a single one made it to the top.
at that time not even titanium frames made it to the top. but cannondale did!
i have to add that i prefer steel and titanium but these tests show that there are a lot of myths floating
around.

Thanks for the link. It's really interesting stuff and made me look at the situation alittle differently. At first I thought they were saying that AL was stonger than steel (fatigue-wise) which just isn't true but as I read further I saw:

The fact that aluminum and carbon frames in this test last longer than the steel frames is not in our estimate a question of the material, but the constructional expenditure. Not the material, but its skillful use gives the excursion. However, the manufacturers concentrate their constructional efforts in a logical way on frames with good potential for light weight construction - and those are made from aluminum or carbon, and only rarely (because of small rigidity) from titanium.

This is interesting because for all of the talk (and I've done this too) of which metal is better, the reality is that we don't ride 'metal', we ride bikes. It's metal+design+construction that is important and there seems to be a clear corollary between material and design/construction effort (at least at the higher end of the scale).

Thanks again for posting the link.

Jim

Jim,

I think I'd put it this way:

Aluminum is stronger than steel on a weight basis, but not as durable on a stress basis.

William "the UN of the metal world" Karstens

I'm talking TIG steel here, not Aluminium. I'll never make an Aluminium singlespeed or fixie, nor will I ever run off and go make them somewhere in the Pacific rim. I've done Aluminium and like it to an extent ( see my proto FS bike on the website ), but Aluminium has a finite fatigue life, doesn't have that 'zing', that springly feel that i like in all my non suspended bikes. More importantly, it doesn't satisfy my retro urges =]

Now, looking back through the posts, even on something supposedly simple like a fixie, people have different ideas on what's kosher and what's not. As price is always a factor, the more options there are, the more the price goes up. "I want a top tube that slopes towards the head tube, brake cable guides and fender mounts" or "I want chrome." means "This is no longer a stock frame" - it's the quandry of all custom builders....and a lot of them **** it up ( Think - Ibis ).

At this stage this is what I'm thinking -

• Seven stock sizes from 50 to 62
• Moderate geometry, like 73 degree head angles, higher BBs for pedalling 'round corners, clearance for 28c tires.
• the 4 colours as stated earlier - Espresso, Ivory, Orange and Khaki.
• No cable guides, but drilled for a rear brake. Might include some stick on guides for those that want to ghetto rig a rear brake.
• No fender mounts
• If you want extra braze-ons, they'll all be a cost option.
• Tubing will be Columbus Zona. All round tubes, no stupid shapes. Seat and top tubes will be traditional size, but down tube will be a little fatter. Stays will be MTB stays to accomodate that lovely stopping technique you guys love.
• $TBA

As for the Efbe tests, I'm going to keep my reply short. if you want further discussion go have a look at the roadie board.

The only two modern steel bikes they've tested are the Cervelo Renaissance and Super Prodigy - both passed with flying colours. Although hardly conslusive, I'd say it was a hint that MODERN steel bikes are light, strong and viable. It also says that processes, NOT MATERIALS are the key to a good bike. Heck, I've seen more broken Cannondales IRL than any other brand. I've seen a Principia with a down tube torn in half. I've seen a Colnago master still going strong after 20 years. You try to imitate reality in the lab, not the other way around, people have to keep that in mind.

The only two modern steel bikes they've tested are the Cervelo Renaissance and Super Prodigy - both passed with flying colours. Although hardly conslusive, I'd say it was a hint that MODERN steel bikes are light, strong and viable. It also says that processes, NOT MATERIALS are the key to a good bike. Heck, I've seen more broken Cannondales IRL than any other brand. I've seen a Principia with a down tube torn in half. I've seen a Colnago master still going strong after 20 years. You try to imitate reality in the lab, not the other way around, people have to keep that in mind.

that was a misunderstanding. I never suggested that you should use aluminium. my post
was just an answer to WKs post about aluminium.

:)

No misunderstanding. I never suggested that you suggested I should use Aluminium.

:D

I never suggested that you suggested I should use Aluminium.
:D
And I never suggested AL either. I'll just step out of posting here, since... really, the input isn't needed from this angle.

Thylacine, I think you are headed the right direction. I want to second the vote on Molteni Orange. Please keep in mind that around these parts I'm known as an old retro grouch but your ideas strike a cord with me.

subtle detailing, no large logos
atypical colors
columbus steel
tight track geometry
room for wider tires ( up to 32 or so) than typical track frames/forks