Classic & Vintage - Opinions on LeMond...?

Couple of questions: When did production of the very first LeMond road bikes begin and then actually cease?

Were they ever made anywhere but Trek Waterloo?

Seems like most of the Reynolds 853 framesets were pretty nice, even if they weren't lugged and were TIG'd....

For quite some time I have been trying to research what really happened b/w LeMond and Trek, but I have never been able to close the book on the issue, in my head anyways.... I look at older steel LeMond road bikes and sometimes wish that I had one...

I honestly don't know if Greg was trying to do what he felt was the right thing, or if he was a guy taking cheap shots at other riders VIA the media...I don't know why I am fascinated w/ LeMond bikes...

Thoughts?

I believe the actual parting of ways was in 2008. I know I was watching a "hand made" early LeMond on EBay several months ago that I would have really liked to have. I also know first hand that setting up and tuning the shifting on the latest c/f models can give one a headache at times. I currently own one LeMond, a Fillmore, and would like to have one of the steel road bikes like a Reno, or a Nevada City, or a Poprad, or whatever came my way in my size and within my budget.

Thanks treebound,
I can't believe that somebody else didn't offer to keep production going....

Any idea of when the first ones were made..? I really like the Reno, Nevada City and Zurich's also... :thumb:

I have a little bit of time on the Reynolds 853 frames, but would like to have one of my own to form a better opinion....

Were they ever made anywhere but Trek Waterloo?
Mine was made in Taiwan. 853 Tubing



Seems like most of the Reynolds 853 framesets were pretty nice, even if they weren't lugged and were TIG'd....
They ride really nice. Its my full time training bike. I'd like to do crits with them but I like the downtube shifters too much.



I look at older steel LeMond road bikes and sometimes wish that I had one...
Here's one to help you decide if you want to get one:

http://www.maquiling.org/images/lemondside1.jpg

I like Lamond bikes, but have never found one at the right time. In regard to the trek / LaMond tiff and ending of the line... you will have to follow the court case.

But remember by the end, Trek sponsored Lance, Trek marketed LaMond. Lance and Greg had some public disagreements to place it politely. Lance was the bigger fish, Trek was better off with the bigger fish.

Business can get ugly.

I own a 2000 Buenos Aires. 853 throughout. Very nice ride. I built it frame up, so it has nothing original.

I heard that trek gave Greg Lemond a certain number of bikes per year, but he couldn't sell them. A Lemond dealer in his neck of the woods, caught him selling a Lemond to one of his customers. this event gave trek the excuse to break their contact with him. I feel lucky to have a Lemond. There may be no more coming.

I don't know why I am fascinated w/ LeMond bikes...[/B]

Thoughts?

There are worse obsessions.

Unfortunately, the story about LeMond will be more about the business relationship with Trek and Greg's compulsion to get the truth out about doping, whatever that was, rather than the bikes--which are all quite remarkable in their own right. They were all built the way their founder believed a bike should be built, and those beliefs were formed by Greg's first pro director at Renault/Elf/Gitane, Cyrille Guilmard.

While Greg's insinuations against his partner's (Trek's) franchise, Lance, were immature, ill advised, and appearing to be cheap shots, I think Greg just never saw it that way. He simply believed in the rightness of what he was doing and never questioned his motivations or his methods. I don't think he even considered that others would ever question his motives.

This saddens me because while I used to be a bit envious of Greg's success and the support of his family that he enjoyed, I always admired his style of racing. I always recall US national coach Eddie Borysewicz's pride in having coached Greg, and his use of his 1983 World Championship ride as a textbook example of how to use tactics to force a selection, control opponents, and win a race.

I really think that Trek is only trying to protect their own futures when it comes to the legal issues with LeMond. Armstrong is a HUGE influence on Trek sales IMHO and I believe that is what worries them, not some backyard "grey-market" bike sale (no offense tradtimbo). It's just my opinion, but I always thought Trek made a bad decision when picking up the LeMond name as it was a partnership doomed from the start. It's been long known that LeMond has many misgivings surrounding the professional aspect of the sport. LeMond is also somewhat of an activist when it comes to the UCI, WADA and other organizations and is constently campaigning for change and far more unified and strict guidelines. Being a long time cyclist and also a cop, I've always moved toward thinking of LeMond is to cycling as what Frank Serpico is (was) to police work. That is what I love about LeMond...I'm an optimist and I seek the truth wherever I can. So anyway, Trek has somewhat of a situational paradox on it's hands when it comes to dealing with it's own name integrity inside of pro cycling and the integrity of it's contract with LeMond. LeMond has become the "leg in the trap" as it were...and I think Trek is trying to cut off a leg in order to keep living, even if there may be a wound there for a while.

But aaaaaanyhow.....I believe the early LeMond's were outsourced to various manufactures until Trek bought the name, so I would think that depending on the model, you'd be looking at either Europe or Asia. And just to say it....853 was actually made specifically for TIG welding....although I see quite a few bikes that are either lugged or fillet brazed. When done correctly, TIG'ing 853 will actually make it stronger.

You make some good points Oldbobcat & Redtires...

From Bob Jackson's page:

"Reynolds 853 is a high strength, 210,00 psi, heat treated, air hardened steel alloy. Careful control of the alloying elements combine to give these tubes enhanced mechanical properties surpassing other materials currently available.



The main advantage of Reynolds 853 is its ability to air harden after joining, a characteristic not shown by other chrome molybdenum / manganese molybdenum materials presently on the market. When building frames using either TIG welding or high temperature brazing, above 1600 degrees, the joints increase in strength as the frame cools to room temperature.



LUG CONSTRUCTION IS THE PREFERRED METHOD OF JOINING 853. It allows a much larger area to be heated than tig welding which concentrates the heat to a very small area at the weld. This completely goes against the “AIR HARDENING” building philosophy of the material and adds nothing to the strength of the joint. It is however a much cheaper joining method, requiring less time and skill to perform.


Due to the superior mechanical properties of 853 tubing, there are several benefits which will translate directly to the cyclist. The wall thickness of 853 has been reduced to 0.4 mm, a full 0.1 mm thinner than Reynolds other top of the line 753 tubing. This translates into a frame weight of under 3 pounds 5 ounces for a 56 cm frame (less fork). Because of the added hardness of this alloy the chances of denting the tubing are no greater than that of present materials being employed. The final significant advantage is the increased stiffness of the frame and its ability to transmit all of the cyclist power into forward motion. The oversized 853 tube set, with its oval chainstays represents the ultimate in power transmission. Aside from the 853 OS tubeset, conventional diameter sets are available which will allow for a more comfortable ride, while still retaining most of the benefits associated with 853 oversize.



853 is currently produced in 8 tube tubesets. There are no fork blades drawn from this alloy. Bob Jackson will supply 853 frames with your choice of fork material., and configuration."

I am keeping my fingers crossed for LeMond Cycles, I hope we will see a steel botique road bike from LeMond in the future....One that has nothing to do w/ Trek....
Ehh Ehhmmm, Waterford is just down the road from Waterloo....How cool would that be!?

...not some backyard "grey-market" bike sale...

no offense taken. besides, you misunderstood me. They used the bike sale as an excuse. a breach of contract so to speak. a perfect opurtunity to let go of someone they wanted to let go.

of course, this all hearsay for me.

I got what you were saying, I just did not want to come across like I was "one-upping" the facts. And you are 100% right by the way, that would appear to be a perfectly legal way to break the contract for breach.

Bigwoo...I'm not sure I understand exactly what your trying to say...HELP! Bob Jackson is a great builder, but I would disagree that brazing works the same as TIG on 853. 853 is made from the same steel developed for an application in which TIG is the only method of construction...side impact frames on high performance cars. Also, the butts on 853 are shorter, thus the lug may actually extend past the butting shelf causing higher stress points. I would say that Jackson is being a consumate businessman by saying lugs are the "preferred method" for construction. And at temps above 1600 degrees you would be building with a rather high content of bronze and silver brazing would never come close to these temps. At those high temps, you also start to get copper infusion into the steel, which actually will weaken it. Also, when TIG welding, the heating process is quite fast and does not radiate as far towards the center of the tube, while brass-bronze brazing causes a large amount of radiation and longer heat times. This would lead to a "soft in the middle" tube, where lot's of torsion and lateral stresses occur. TIG is also done in an oxygen deficient environment, which reduces oxidation in the weld area. As for TIG requiring less skill...well...I can say from experience that TIG welding a frame with a .5 millimeter wall thickness is no "low skill" task. It takes a lot of concentration and skill not to blow through a tube and end up with a uniform depth and aesthetically pleasing weld. Granted, it is cheaper on a mass production scale and can be done mechanically, but I don't think most handbuilt rides were made with a robot.

Couple of questions: When did production of the very first LeMond road bikes begin and then actually cease?

Were they ever made anywhere but Trek Waterloo?

There were two companies, one was Greg LeMond, and the other is (was?) LeMond. The originals were made in Italy by the Billato Brothers (or, occasionally, by Roland Della Santa, if you're lucky). These bikes were generally made of lugged Columbus steel and painted by Ten Speed Drive Imports, and sold as "Greg LeMond" bicycles. You can find these on eBay pretty often, and they come in some pretty awesome paint schemes. I actually own an early Greg LeMond track bike which I love. Anyway, due to some unpleasantness, this company folded, and I've read that this was the source of the split between Greg and his father. As far as when LeMond gets started again with Trek, I'm not sure, but I know that Greg LeMond bikes date from something ~1987-~1990. Mine is from 1989.

I don't think LeMond was using 853 at the end. By 2006 or so, I'm pretty sure they were using all True Temper OX Platinum for their steel bikes. Trek definitely does not make an 853 bike. As far as I know, the only steel bike they make is the 520, and they doesn't specify any steel type there.

Also worth mentioning about the Trek/LeMond split is that Trek took most of the old LeMond designs are is now selling them under the Gary Fisher brand. So something like the LeMond Poprad is now the Gary Fisher Presidio, and so on.

Since we're posting out LeMonds, here's mine.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3248/2330157054_31fb11e97a.jpg

Wow that track bike is beauty :beer:

I was glad to get one of the last Poprad's last year in OX Platinum steal. It's by far the best riding cross bike I have ever had and I've had a few.

Bigwoo...I'm not sure I understand exactly what your trying to say...HELP! Bob Jackson is a great builder, but I would disagree that brazing works the same as TIG on 853. 853 is made from the same steel developed for an application in which TIG is the only method of construction...side impact frames on high performance cars. .

Redtires,
Sorry, I wasn't trying to confuse the issue. I just thought that the B. Jackson statement was really interesting....My interpretation of the statement is that Reynolds 853 is outstanding/top shelf and was meant to be TIG welded, but can be just as good in a lugged application if somebody has the skill and time.....That may possibly mean that it is a cutting edge, outstanding technology that can be applied by old world craftsmen.... Just my thoughts there.....

Well Guys, you have posted some gorgeous bikes and now I am convinced that I would like to have an 853 steel LeMond to ride in the Rocky Mountains.... The hunt begins......

There must be collectors hoarding the earlier LeMond's in a big-time way, because I don't see many pre-late 90's at all!!

This one shows up on CL every so often...he is asking to much.
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/bik/1024607585.html
Some carbon LeMonds were made by Calfee in the 90's.

The first "Trek" LeMonds where 1995 models. The most common LeMond road bike spotted then was a re-badged Trek oclv frame sold as a LeMond Maillot Jaune or Chambery. If you have a non-Trek LeMond, it is pre-1995. Then the 853 bikes came along (Zurich) which were originally welded up in Waterloo, WI. bonechilling is correct - the latest LeMond steel bikes were True Temper. I had a Zurich and have a True Temper fixed gear. They are good bikes - geometry happened to fit me real well and the Zurich was an excellent road race bike.

The originals were made in Italy by the Billato Brothers (or, occasionally, by Roland Della Santa, if you're lucky).

You mean lucky like John Barron ("Velostuf)?

http://www.velostuf.com/1990LemondByRolandDellaSanta.htm

Then the 853 bikes came along (Zurich) which were originally welded up in Waterloo, WI. bonechilling is correct - the latest LeMond steel bikes were True Temper. I had a Zurich and have a True Temper fixed gear. They are good bikes - geometry happened to fit me real well and the Zurich was an excellent road race bike.

I'll have to look at mine cause I thought it said Taiwan on it. But I'm probably spacing out as usual. I think it is pre '95 cause I got it on sale as an "older" model.

You mean lucky like John Barron ("Velostuf)?

http://www.velostuf.com/1990LemondByRolandDellaSanta.htm

Dang Picchio, Thanks for posting that!! I had never seen it before!

:eek: "Built for Greg but never used..."

Coolest retro graphics ever!!!!

http://http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/bigwoo2/073.jpg

As far as the 853 Lemonds, they are great. I have a 61cm 2000 Zurich (853 TIG-welded frame, carbon fiber fork) that is currently stripped down and waiting for me to get around to selling. It rode great, and it corrnered like it was on rails. Greg knows a thing or two about frame geometry. He may have learned it all from others, like Cyrille Guimard and Roland Della Santa (and I doubt he'd deny it) but he learned it very well.

As for the other stuff -- Greg Lemond has something of a history for getting into hissy-fits with folks with whom he is doing business. He had a major blow up with his Dad. He is having a major blow up with Trek. There have been others.

He has also had some major run-ins with fellow racers, i.e.[I]Bernard Hinault and Jonathan Boyer. His take on why he fell from the very top of the sport in 1991 has become increasingly strident and whiny over the years.

This much is certain: Greg Lemond lacks diplomacy skills. He was a hell of a racer, and he had me jumping for joy more than once. His 1989 TdF win was not only exciting, but one of the most amazing examples of race management you will ever see. But the clutch between his brain and his mouth has never been properly adjusted. And there have been too many fallings-out and and too much drama surrounding him and his dealings for all of it to be someone else's fault. I'm not saying it's all his fault - I can't know that and I kind of doubt it. But the one common denominator in all of the [I]sturm und drang that has accompanied him has been him. Common sense says that he has to be at least partly at fault at least some of the time. His dealings with Trek may or may not be an instance. But his history suggests that is is at least possible that he screwed the pooch on that one.

My sense is he is right more often than he is wrong, in terms of substance. But he has an unfortunate talent for saying stuff in a way that offends, of adding just the wrong tone or going a little too far so that whatever else he says gets lost in the process. The impact that words from someone of his stature should have is all too often reduced by his lack of tact and failure to think about how to phrase something so as to maximize peoples' ability to hear and accept what he has to say.

I think this has hurt him in terms of the respect his accomplishments have garnered (sure, his palmares are respected, but he should regarded as something close to a God for what he accomplished, and he isn't). And that is mostly self-inflicted.

The impact that words from someone of his stature should have is all too often reduced by his lack of tact and failure to think about how to phrase something so as to maximize peoples' ability to hear and accept what he has to say.

I think this has hurt him in terms of the respect his accomplishments have garnered (sure, his palmares are respected, but he should regarded as something close to a God for what he accomplished, and he isn't). And that is mostly self-inflicted.

Rather than finding pride in his past and working in the present, he appears to put more heart into spinning his own myth.

Geez you guys...
I am humbled by the intelligence and in-depth observation that you have made here..... I honestly just think that he is a good person with bad communication skills and I also believe that he is a perfectionist, which can be a burden on those around him....

In the back of my mind I also believe that there may be some people who feel "cheated" because they worked hard and trained to ride the tour in an honest manner, and they and their records were blown out of the water by people who may have had access to unfair techniques....

With all of the wonderful collections we have on C&V, I'm very surprised that nobody has posted an 80's LeMond.....:(
During spring & summer I see a guy on Pearl St in Boulder who has one of the very first lugged LeMond's that was ever made and it is autographed by Greg on the rear L stay..... I met him a year ago outside of Nick & Willy's Pizza and he complimented my vintage Serotta and I complimented his LeMond.... I will try to find him and get some photos of it and post back to this thread...

Bigwoo,

I found this old thread lying around as I am trying to find information on a Team LeMond that I just purchased at a yard sale.

It is a lugged frame painted brilliant yellow and has a black head tube with a Greg LeMond sticker.

I think that it is 87'-90', but cannot be certain. It says it is made in Italy.

It is full Campy throughout, and is in very good condition, save a few spots of rust that seem to be from a less than great original paint job.

I rode it a little before I started taking it apart for a complete clean up. I can post photos if anyone is interested.

If anyone knows what this is I would love it if you could educate me.

Thanks.



Geez you guys...
I am humbled by the intelligence and in-depth observation that you have made here..... I honestly just think that he is a good person with bad communication skills and I also believe that he is a perfectionist, which can be a burden on those around him....

In the back of my mind I also believe that there may be some people who feel "cheated" because they worked hard and trained to ride the tour in an honest manner, and they and their records were blown out of the water by people who may have had access to unfair techniques....

With all of the wonderful collections we have on C&V, I'm very surprised that nobody has posted an 80's LeMond.....:(
During spring & summer I see a guy on Pearl St in Boulder who has one of the very first lugged LeMond's that was ever made and it is autographed by Greg on the rear L stay..... I met him a year ago outside of Nick & Willy's Pizza and he complimented my vintage Serotta and I complimented his LeMond.... I will try to find him and get some photos of it and post back to this thread...

ahem. yes, we are interested. Always interested in pictures of cool vintage bikes. We'd love to see it.

ahem. yes, we are interested. Always interested in pictures of cool vintage bikes. We'd love to see it.
Jeez, I forgot about this thread...
I have since seen some early 90's LeMonds made in Italy, but none in my size :(
Ivandarker,
Pics Man, Pics!!

I can post photos if anyone is interested.

Silly statement. :p
Of course we want to see some pics.

Dell Santa in Cal. as one member stated, late '80s. Very late '80 maybe in part of 90, 91 from Scapin in Italy. Don't know where the Billotto Bros. came into play, I reckon just after Scapin. Hearsay as far as I know. First I heard of Billotto was here at BF two years ago. Not asserting that they didn't, it's just haven't read it otherwise; by collectors or anyone else. Billotto sold bikes , had 'em built as much as fabricating frames so I'm not sure about anything Billotto.
LeMond scaled-down, really stopped selling bikes from '92ish thru '94'95 ? Around the time (92,3) he took up with Trek. He always had a crappy relationship with Trek, from jump street. They never supported him.
This all aside from what I've read in any single article, more from reading intermitently here and there.
When looking at LeMonds, Trek Stores didn't have them. They were sold under different franchising deals. Stores that sold bikes other than Trek sold LeMonds. By the late '90s, Ski Shops and large Sporting Good Stores; Hermans , SkiBarn and few others had LeMond. Just 2 years ago an LBS near me had Trek but no LeMond. Said they could swap one from a friendly competitor, NOT the the local depot but they COULD handle Warr.Issues. Could never understand why the seperation. Trek stores selling Giant but not Trek ! ??
First LeMond that I had an opportunity to buy was an NOS Zurich, 853, full Campy, an '95 sold as "96".
Just a few years ago. Lugged bikes had dif. geom. and you can recognize the color schemes. One that comes to mind has those red, yellow, blue, green dayglow fades. Other examples too. You can tell. 1997(6) was a big sales year, the start of more big years to come. Most were Taiwan despite what we hear. GREAT bikes and it matters little to me; Taiwan, Italy, USA...lugged, Tig'd, AL., 853, 525, TT OX, Ti. Carbon, all of them are some of the best bikes ever IMO. It's a shame that Trek slayed him.
The member HERE and NOW that stated that HIS bike is Taiwan, THESE are the individuals, the very best sources from whom we learn, not the bloggers or the shop rats. (or me) e-bay has examples as well

Couple of questions: When did production of the very first LeMond road bikes begin and then actually cease?

Were they ever made anywhere but Trek Waterloo?

Seems like most of the Reynolds 853 framesets were pretty nice, even if they weren't lugged and were TIG'd....

For quite some time I have been trying to research what really happened b/w LeMond and Trek, but I have never been able to close the book on the issue, in my head anyways.... I look at older steel LeMond road bikes and sometimes wish that I had one...

I honestly don't know if Greg was trying to do what he felt was the right thing, or if he was a guy taking cheap shots at other riders VIA the media...I don't know why I am fascinated w/ LeMond bikes...

Thoughts?

Lemond bikes were most certainly produced outside the Trek factory, because when Greg started the company they weren't owned by Trek. Trek bought up Lemond roughly around the same time that they acquired Gary Fischer and Klein.

Clark Kent is said to have built some titanium Lemond frames, Bilato the older steel ones, and Calfee made some of the early carbon frames. However, others say Rayon (Mitsubishi) made the carbon bikes early on. However, team Z may have ridden on Merlin frames for a season and Litespeed another. Whether any frames ever produced by those two were branded Lemond's I've never figured out, however, they definitely were Team Z bikes.

The Reynolds 853 Lemond bikes produced at Trek are epic if you're drinking the 'steel is real' Kool-aid.

Okay, here is what I pieced together from people at Trek (I lived in Wisconsin and knew a couple of Trekkie insiders) and from the UCI crowd that trains or is based in Boulder County, CO where I live now, and that like to talk. Essentially the business relationship soured when Lemond began vocalizing his concern that Trek's poster child Lance, wasn't competing on an even playing field. Lemond was disgusted to learn of Armstrong's involvement with (now disgraced) Dr. Michele Ferrari, that relationship lasted through the 2004 Tour.

Trek had originally shared a vision with Lemond of making his brand the flagship of the road line (although they also sponsored elite level teams on Klein bikes). The bad blood between Lance and Lemond starts here, its definitely been said that Lance refused to ride on a Lemond branded bike, and hence the Trek nameplate was on all the tour bikes.

Where the relationship really sours is when Lemond finally becomes disgusted with Lance cheating his way to seven tour victories. Lemond started piping up, saying various things on the record about Lance's complicity and his tainted victories. This obviously didn't go over well at Trek as Lance is their poster boy, and they certainly didn't appreciate an insider like Lemond undermining everything they had invested in Lance and his image.

Where it finally blew up after Hamilton, Heras, et. al. was when Floyd Landis was still knee-deep in his charade, Lemond had agreed to testify against Landis, on the record to the effect that Landis had admitted doping, and that furthermore Landis had admitted that Lance had doped as well. Essentially the Landis hearing was really a fishing expedition to try and delve up dirt on Armstrong, and if Landis would testify as to what he knew he was being offered leniency. Lemond was specifically going to testify to a conversation he had with Landis regarding about how the UCI was primarily interested in negotiating for testamony concerning Armstrong, not Landis himself. Landis had asked Lemond what he should do. Lemond had advised Landis to tell 'em what he knew. Landis had said he couldn't do that (to Armstrong).

Where it jumped the shark was when Landis's manager called up Lemond the night before Lemond was to testify before the United States Anti-Doping Agency. Lemond was to testify concerning that conversation, and corroborating that Landis was doping, and that Landis knew and acknowledged that Lance had been doping, but Floyd wasn't willing to say so on the record. Landis's manager tried to blackmail Lemond, letting him know that if Lemond testified to the USADA regarding their conversations (which he considered to be priviliged) that they would leak that Lemond had been sexually assaulted in his youth.

After that there was no going back, that Trek would eventually relegate the Lemond brand out of production was essentially a given.

What is interesting in all of this was that Lemond was adamant that Landis could help fix cycling by being forthright and honest, and not engage in the pattern of disingenous denials and duplicity that previous cyclists had entrenched themselves with. Lemond was adamant that if Landis disclosed his doping, and Armstrong's use, that it would help heal the sport. This conversation took place before Landis's B sample had come back dirty. Landis's comments to Lemond were essentially that he didn't see what good it would do, and that others (Armstrong) would only get hurt in the process. Lemond was seeing a bigger picture where seemingly every single US Postal rider had been caught doping, that is every single rider except Armstrong.

The real story in all of this is actually Jonathon Vaughters. He was a Postie with Lance as well and has never been open with anyone about what took place on that team. However, very clearly Vaughters was a person of incredible integrity. He once refused a Cortizone treatment when Tour doctors were telling him to take if for "saddle sores" after he had been stung by a bee. Vaughters refused and ultimately abandoned the tour, something he would never finish. He went on to be the director sportiff of Chipolte/Garmin/Slipstream a team that independently and with complete transparency blood tests its cyclists throughout the year and during conmpetition.

While Trek decided to kill the Lemond brand in retaliation for Greg Lemond speaking out against their poster boy, destroying the vision of Lemond bicycles, Vaughters emerged with a new vision of a clean US team.

I've always felt that riding a Lemond was a protest vote, saying that you wouldn't buy into the Trek regime. Ultimately, Trek made a choice and they chose to protect their corporate investment and brand goodwill with Armstrong's image. I for one believe that had Landis come clean, and had Armstrong (though I can't imagine the arrogant Texan doing so) come clean as well that it would have saved cycling. The sheer hubris of Armstrong is why the european media treated lance so poorly (talking to Dr. Ferrarri on a cell phone during a race, dumping bags of blood in the dumpsters, etc.). No that we know that Lance was riding away from a peloton of cyclists that were doping it becomes nearly inconcievable to maintain that he was riding cleanly.

I think Lemond bikes are going to be collector items in the near future. Both for the epic frames that they are/were and also because of the nature of the whole Lemond versus the tainted Trek train, that was invested in winning, at all costs.

To this day I'm continually astounded that cyclists realize that Lance, Hamilton, Landis, Heras, and others were doping, that Trek screwed Lemond, and that they still go out and buy a Trek Madone. It just boggles my mind.

I like that Trek supports Dream Bikes in Madison, WI but that doesn't make up for the complicity.

I share mtnbke's view. I think Lemond is just trying to do the right thing, and that often gets ugly, such as the Landis threat. I'm hoping someone picks up the brand and it becomes a symbol of consumer power and taking a stand. My son has a Zurich, and it's a very nicely built and riding bike.

wow. a let's-bash-lance thread. That is the other name of the road racing sub-forum, btw. I think that I would have been caught doping if the powers that be had piss-tested me as much as Lance has been tested. The French really, really wanted to catch him, but didn't. They even resurrected a B sample from almost 20 years ago, one without a pedigree, and assigned the positive to Lance. Oddly, they let that one go...all that said I'd jump at the chance to ride with Greg. He is one of my abiding heros and one of my inspirations during my puny little racing career.

Doesn't matter, the discussion is really about Lemond 853's...not Greg Lemond, not Lance Armstrong. I'll add my two cents by saying that I've only ridden one but it is high on my list for a new steelie (if I can't find a deal somewhere on a 953 ;) )

I know that Calfee made some carbon bikes that were branded with the LeMond name in 1990/91. I have an issue of Bicycle Guide from 1988 (the year LeMond rode for PDM) that has a review of what I think may be the first LeMond "production" bikes - Della Santa was the maker of those. I had a 1999 steel 853 Buenos Aires for several years and loved it - upgraded to a 2005 Ti-Carbon Tete de Course and love it even more.

I can dig it out and scan the article if you're interested. Here is a link to my website: www.velovault.webs.com

Lemond somehow inherited and/or took on this roll as the authority on anti-doping. Being the idealist that he is, he seems to call them like he sees them. I personally think Lemond knows what he is talking about. That being said he is fighting a war that will never be won. In many ways i wish he had just walked away from the sport & never looked back. Let the dopers have their era.
In 2002 i was in the market for a modern road bike, my old road bike was 13 years old at the time. It was between a Lemond or a Klein as my friend in the biz sold these two brands. The Lemond, as nice as it was, just didn't quite have that wow factor i wanted in my new purchase. It was lug-less steel & the paint was just OK. Blah. The Klein was lighter and oh so pretty! I don't regret buying the Klein. I think the Lemond brand was to passive in a market that requires innovation. If the bikes were branded Armstrong they would have suffered the same fate.

I really sympathize with Lemond. He won the tour in 1990, and in 1991 he got his butt handed to him by a wealth of non-stellar riders. The birth of EPO, I'm sure. But that was then, and now is now, and doping controls are pretty hard to get around nowadays.

Everyone knows how I feel about Kleins. I have one, and don't plan on selling it soon, but I'm looking for a state of the art steelie to see how it compares (I've been riding a Havnoonian coursa, but I'm thinking there are better materials out there...)

i believe the first lemonds were built by roland della santa. in fact, theres a guy on monterey california cr that is trying to get 1400.00 for his all super record della santa built lemond. id buy it but its a little high for me(price that is). i talked to della santa and he confirmed that he did build some of these. anybody out there know when lemond is going to be in the bay area for a appearance. id love to see him. i know he comes here once in a while. wish he would lose a little weight though. seems like most of those guys really put it on after retirement

Thanks everyone for such a civil tone; usually this issue gets ugly, quickly. I don't want to make this into a doping thread, but a few misconceptions jump out, and the OP did ask about Lemond and his stand. For one, the 2005 tests were a study on old samples to test a new method, and six of them from one rider were positive. The fact they belonged to a particular rider was only revealed when that rider released his doping forms to the journalist investigating whether an exemption had been allowed (TUE's are noted on doping forms). The lab had no idea. But they were positive, just not sanctionable.
As for not testing positive, Claudia Pechstein, the four time Olympian multi-medalist speed skater just got banned for two years for showing unusual blood parameters, over nine years. http://www.bild.de/BILD/sport/mehr-sport/2009/07/07/claudia-pechstein/verweis-statistik,property=Download.jpg She's never tested positive, but the Court of Arbitration for Sport clearly agreed she had manipulated her blood. http://www.tas-cas.org/d2wfiles/document/3803/5048/0/2009.11.25%20PR.pdf

Similarly unusual blood values were published from this years Tour. Lemond knows what he's talking about. Buying his bikes is a small way to show support for clean cycling.

Chuckk, you have some very nice rides!

I just posted this in the Retro Roadies thread, but here in another pre-Trek LeMond, the sister to my La Vanquer track bike.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2532/4138499204_be02123bfc_b.jpg

My source on Bilatto Brothers involvement with LeMond comes from the shop owner from whence my aforefeatured Greg LeMond track bike originates (it's a team bike). His story is that Bilatto was making all the Greg LeMonds, Masis and Guerciottis that he sold in the store. Another mention of Bilatto Brothers' complicity with Greg LeMond, completely independent of my source, is here (http://allanti.com/articles/where-was-my-bike-made-pg328.htm) (scroll down to LeMond).

An important distinction that needs to be made here is that Trek has NEVER purchased the LeMond name or company. They simply licensed it from Greg, and the lawsuit involves the termination of that licensing agreement.

I rode for Plymouth-Reebok in 1989. The LeMonds we rode were supposedly all built by DellaSanta. The tubing was SLX. I believe the same frames were used in '88, but am not entirely sure. HTH.

now, della santa and some guys at the lbs told me that some of the earlier lemond frames broke, this was pretty common i guess. dont know which ones. not the della santa ones iguess since he told me about it. besides della santa makes the best frames in the world in my opinion. by the wasy bonechilling, yours looks like a della santa model. check the one out on cr monterey.

I would love to have bought a Della Santa for $250, but unfortunately mine is assuredly not made by him. The road bike has an Italian threaded bottom bracket (not that Della Santa couldn't have used one), and both bikes have a 10-Speed Drive Imports sticker on the downtube and no "DS" in the serial number. Unless I'm missing something, these fit squarely into the Italian import category.

Also, as Della Santa apparently made primarily team bikes, it would be odd that my bike would be made of SL rather than SLX, and feature a pump peg (decidedly not-PRO) and no number hanger (the PROest thing ever). Also, it doesn't really match the pantographing or other features (dropoputs, brake bridge) I've seen on the Della Santa LeMonds.

Sorry, but what is CR Monterey?

http://http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy338/ivandarken/lemond/cimg4945.jpg

trying...

http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy338/ivandarken/Lemond/CIMG4945.jpg

As you can see... I am using this old thread to learn how to post photos... bear with me and enjoy. :p


http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy338/ivandarken/Lemond/CIMG4969.jpg

http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy338/ivandarken/Lemond/CIMG4960.jpg

http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy338/ivandarken/Lemond/CIMG4952.jpg

http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy338/ivandarken/Lemond/CIMG4958.jpg

http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy338/ivandarken/Lemond/CIMG4956.jpg

http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy338/ivandarken/Lemond/CIMG4955.jpg

As you can see... I am using this old thread to learn how to post photos... bear with me and enjoy. :p

Looks like you succeeded...and in a big way. The pre-Trek Lemonds have just been added to my "someday" folder.

Any shots of the seat cluster?--looks like an interesting wrap-around.

Sorry, but what is CR Monterey?

I think when Joe writes CR he is referring to Craigslist. There is a nice Lemond out by the California coast right now.

CL Monterey Bay Lemond (http://monterey.craigslist.org/bik/1502248284.html)

Dang Ivandarken!!

That Team is gorgeous! More photos please.... How does she ride!?

I watched this and maybe should have purchased it: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270495016337&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_755wt_1167 The idea of a Lemond Victoire Titanium Road Bike w/Ultegra is very appealing.

Specifications:

Frameset: Reynolds 3/2.5 double butted titanium, handmade.

Fork: Bontrager Race Lite, OCLV 110 Carbon.

Headset: Crane Creek

Handlebar: 3TTT Forgie XL. 46 cm.

Stem: 3 TTT Forgie XL. 120mm

Shifting: Shimano Ultegra Levers, front and rear derailleur. 9 speed.

Brakes: Shimano Ultegra

Crankset: Shimano Ultegra. 175mm length arm. Front chainrings: 53/39. Rear cassette: 12-25

Wheelset: Bontrager Race Lite, 20 spoke front, 24 spoke rear. DT New Aero Spokes.

Saddle: Selle San Marco, Era Luxe, Cro-Moly/Leather.

Pedals: Shimano Ultegra SPD.

Computer: Not included

Geometry:

Frame Size: 59cm. Head Angle: 74'. Seat Angle: 72.5'. Standover: 831mm. Seat Tube: 616mm. Head Tube: 191mm. Top Tube: 591mm. Chainstays: 417mm. BB Height: 270mm. Wheelbase: 1013 mm. Trail: 53mm

I remember a rumor that some of the early 90s steel Lemonds were built in Columbia by Canopus. Anyone else have info on Lemond production in Columbia?

Check this one out: http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/bik/1496170623.html