Advocacy & Safety - Getting Doored - Who's at fault?

Latest developments in Wisconsin. I would like to think that this won't/can't happen to me because I am always on the lookout for this scenario. Just throwing it out there.

http://www.madison.com/wsj/mad/top/437600

Here in Pennsylvania, a lawyer successfully defended the cyclist, since the motorist who opened the door, "entered the street at the duress of others".

Strictly legally, I would say the motorist is at fault. In reality, however, I would never count on drivers to check for bikes in a way that isn't an afterthought while looking for cars.

Strictly legally, I would say the motorist is at fault. In reality, however, I would never count on drivers to check for bikes in a way that isn't an afterthought while looking for cars.

I myself as a conscientious cyclist, IMO, have opened car doors after looking and had cyclists zip past me. When riding I keep this thought in mind; treat every parked car like a gun and assume it is loaded, with an occupant ready to exit.

Never assume that being in the legal right is going to keep you alive and uninjured.

I'm almost positive the Uniform Vehicle Code assigns fault in any dooring to the person opening the door, but that doesn't help much if you are dead or severely injured; so don't ride in the door zone!

ORS 811.490 in Oregon.

http://www.stc-law.com/bicyclecardoor.html

In some jurisdictions, there may be required to ride at a certain distance from cars. If there's a lane marking between the travel lane and the parking lane, you may be required to ride on the travel side of the line.

Beyond these possible requirements, yes, the motorist who opens the door is supposed to excercise reasonable care, and not open his door into the path of travel of another vehicle. But as others have pointed out, this is only academic, if you're the cyclist who gets doored. Even if you don't get killed or maimed, all too often a motorist is presumed to be in the right when the other party is not a motorist.

If a person in a parked car opened a door and hit a moving car, the person in the moving car would not be at fault, so why would a cyclist in the same situation? It's up to the person opening the door to make sure it is safe to do so first.

The part that really worries me is this

"Meanwhile, state Sen. Fred Risser, D-Madison, and others have introduced a similar proposal in the Legislature that would also wipe out the state rule that makes bicyclists ride at least three feet away from a parked car. The three-foot rule, Risser said, can force cyclists from a bike lane or the side of the road into traffic."

Riding in traffic is preferable to being doored. And if a bike lane is painted where a rider cannot stay three feet from parked cars, then it needs to be fixed. I'm not objecting to repealing the law (very slow filtering between stopped traffic and parked cars hurts no one) but this reasoning is entirely wrongheaded.

If a person in a parked car opened a door and hit a moving car, the person in the moving car would not be at fault

I suspect this is not true everywhere. One would need a specific law (as oregon, mass, and others have) that prohibits it. Otherwise it's a vehicle hitting a parked car, which is prohibited. That the driver did not have time to react is not an excuse -- if I small child runs out in front of a car from between a pair of parked cars, it's the driver's fault for the crash.

I think there should be laws like oregon has, but I don't think this is an example of car-favoritism.

Note: I am not a lawyer.

My own experience with this scenario was many years ago as the doorer, not the dooree, I am ashamed to say. An absent-minded moment on my part resulted in nailing a passing roadie - the noise of impact was terrific. Fortunately he was uninjured but his expensive Cannondale was pretzeled (I was also lucky that he was only mildly angry and not ballistic). My car insurance company later explained that it was my fault in that the circumstance was such that cyclist had no chance to evade the door. It would have been a different assessment if, say, my door had been open long enough for the cyclist to easily avoid but had not seen because his head was looking down instead of forward. They settled with the cyclist for a new Cannondale and several hundred dollars in return for a signed waiver of any medical claims. It was a lesson for me I've not forgotten. Whether as a parked motorist or a cyclist, I'm constantly aware of my surroundings, especially in or around a parked car on the street.

IMHO if you get doored MOST of the time if not all the time you have put yourself IN A BAD POSITION . Most likely in most states the driver is legaly responsible ! But we all know here on BF to stay out of door zones . But your average bike rider never gives it a thought UNTIL they have a close call or get doored .

I suspect this is not true everywhere. One would need a specific law (as oregon, mass, and others have) that prohibits it.

A quick bit of googling tells me that while your first statement might be true, the law in most places states it is illegal to open a car door into traffic without first ensuring it is safe to do so.

A quick bit of googling tells me that while your first statement might be true, the law in most places states it is illegal to open a car door into traffic without first ensuring it is safe to do so.

Except in the case of Madison... where they reversed the law and made cyclists responsible.

The reality is the fault is both the motorists and cyclists... the cyclist for putting themselves in a dangerous position, and the motorist for failing to ensure it is safe to do so...

Except in the case of Madison... where they reversed the law and made cyclists responsible.

The reality is the fault is both the motorists and cyclists... the cyclist for putting themselves in a dangerous position, and the motorist for failing to ensure it is safe to do so...

Bizarrely, state Sen. Fred Risser wants to push the cyclist to stay next to the door. Idiot. Instead of making it lawful to ride in a danger zone, why not eliminate the danger zone by moving the bike lane out of the door zone?

... if a bike lane is painted where a rider cannot stay three feet from parked cars, then it needs to be fixed. ...

Such situations are all too common. At best, I need to take the left third of a bike lane, but if parked cars protrude into it, I cannot safely stay within the bike lane.

Legally it's the car person's fault. But I have never in my life ridden in a door zone, and I doubt if I ever will. Why would you?

I would say nobodies fault unless they indended to cause the accident.

The auto maker is a fault:
Doors do not need to swing open. There are sliding and gull wing options. Perhaps a light on the door that blinks if the driver attempts to open it, alerting an approaching bicycleist.

The government, specifically schools is at fault:
Since the government monopolizes most of the money available for education it is the states responsibility to teach children to ride bikes correctly. Needless to say bicycle safety is one more failing of the school system.

The bicyclist is at fault:
I also suspect the rider was ridin too fast with breaks that were not properly adjusted. And maybe not paying attention.

I would say nobodies fault unless they indended to cause the accident.

The auto maker is a fault:
Doors do not need to swing open. There are sliding and gull wing options. Perhaps a light on the door that blinks if the driver attempts to open it, alerting an approaching bicycleist.

The government, specifically schools is at fault:
Since the government monopolizes most of the money available for education it is the states responsibility to teach children to ride bikes correctly. Needless to say bicycle safety is one more failing of the school system.

The bicyclist is at fault:
I also suspect the rider was ridin too fast with breaks that were not properly adjusted. And maybe not paying attention.
there must be some kind of A&S prize for this post!

:)

I am wondering what you are supposed to do when riding on a one way street with steady traffic. I take a road like this every day and usually am in the door zone because I don't really have any other option. The speed limit is 25mph and I can only go about 17mph, so if I take the lane then I would hold up traffic. I try to stay as close to the center as possible while letting cars pass me. I actually ride on the left side of the road, since it is allowed, since I don't think as many people would open those doors.

I would think the people in the car would be at fault in most situations.

I am wondering what you are supposed to do when riding on a one way street with steady traffic.Take the lane and stay out of the door zone. Your safety is far more valuable than the few seconds delay. Since your on a one way street, odds are that overall, there is no effective delay of motorist simply changing lanes to pass you, move bake into the lane and catch up to the car ahead.

this is America, so legally, whoever has the most expensive lawyer is in the right

morally, the person who opens the door is being careless

practically, the cyclist who gets doored just had some bad luck

I used to live near a university for 10 years. I've been doored more times than I can remember. Even if you are on the lookout, some guy looking for a bookbag in his back seat will pop up and throw the door of his Jetta open right when you get there.

you want to ride without being doored?

you gotta move out of town

...practically, the cyclist who gets doored just had some bad luck

I used to live near a university for 10 years. I've been doored more times than I can remember. Even if you are on the lookout, some guy looking for a bookbag in his back seat will pop up and throw the door of his Jetta open right when you get there.

you want to ride without being doored?

you gotta move out of townSee what happens to people who refuse to learn about staying out of the door zone.

Latest developments in Wisconsin. I would like to think that this won't/can't happen to me because I am always on the lookout for this scenario. Just throwing it out there.

http://www.madison.com/wsj/mad/top/437600

Rush Limbaugh discussed this on his show today. He saw it as unneeded government intervention. He related how down in Florida "seasoned citizens" are notorious for parking wide of the curb and opening their car doors and taking a long time to exit, so people down there learn to anticpate this. He recommended that cyclists do likewise, and in so many words, as I recall, told us to take the lane.

Rush Limbaugh advocates taking the lane? Is this just so he can tell cyclists off later for delaying motorists?

Rush Limbaugh advocates taking the lane? Is this just so he can tell cyclists off later for delaying motorists?

I don't know about that, but noting that you are from "Meffed," MA, you may have heard of Howie Carr, also besides Rush Limabaugh on WRKO. IMO, he is the most cycling curmudgeonly talk show host, and even has entire segments devoted to bicycling rants.

I'm an avid talk show listener, in particular when I cycle, and my Bike Forums user name is how I'm introduced when I call in (rarely). I more often E-mail, and to taunt Howie and the other cyclophobes, I refer to myself as their Number One Fan among Boston's Bicycle Commuters.:p

Latest developments in Wisconsin. I would like to think that this won't/can't happen to me because I am always on the lookout for this scenario. Just throwing it out there.

http://www.madison.com/wsj/mad/top/437600


In Ontario this is already a requirement as Section 165 of the Highway Traffic Act states:

Opening of doors of motor vehicles

165. No person shall,

(a) open the door of a motor vehicle on a highway without first taking due precautions to ensure that his or her act will not interfere with the movement of or endanger any other person or vehicle; or

(b) leave a door of a motor vehicle on a highway open on the side of the vehicle available to moving traffic for a period of time longer than is necessary to load or unload passengers. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 165.

It's a little bit of fault for both...

In most states it's illegal to open a car door into oncoming traffic, whether a cyclist or other motor vehicles. So principally, it's the motorist's fault for opening his/her door without checking behind to make sure the coast is clear.

In another vein, it's the cyclist's fault for riding in a position that places him or herself in the "door zone," and for failing to notice the potential hazard and taking action to avoid it. Remember Robert Hurst's little admonition from The Art of Urban Cycling,


"... The law blames the motorist for such a collision—as it should—but the safe cyclist blames his- or herself for being distracted and unprepared. It's either that or get used to eating trunks and side-panels, which aren't very tasty and provide poor nutrition.

The urban cyclist's best chance is to gather all the responsibility that can be gathered. Hoard it from those around you. Have faith that you will do a better job with it than they will, and make it so. Don't trust your fate to the police, the planners, the pedestrians, or the paramedics. Don't leave your fate to the stars, or to luck. Definitely don't leave your fate to the drivers."

Never assume that being in the legal right is going to keep you alive and uninjured.


I'm almost positive the Uniform Vehicle Code assigns fault in any dooring to the person opening the door, but that doesn't help much if you are dead or severely injured; so don't ride in the door zone!

ORS 811.490 in Oregon.

http://www.stc-law.com/bicyclecardoor.html

+1 to both.

I've also heard of (but am too tired to bother looking it up now) a law/statute/whatever that says that someone getting out of a parallel-parked car on a busy street should use the door on the curb side -- even if they have to slide across from one seat to the other. That is, opening the door into traffic would put that person at fault for whatever happens next.

That was in the early morning on news radio, so I'm still not sure that I heard it correctly.

In another vein, it's the cyclist's fault for riding in a position that places him or herself in the "door zone," and for failing to notice the potential hazard and taking action to avoid it.
Using the same circular logic, in another vein any cyclist that places himself in front of traffic and fails to note the possibility of being struck while in that position, and doesn't take action to ride somewhere else is at fault for placing himself in the dangerous position.

Using the same circular logic, in another vein any cyclist that places himself in front of traffic and fails to note the possibility of being struck while in that position, and doesn't take action to ride somewhere else is at fault for placing himself in the dangerous position.

Bit of a catch 22 there... damned if you ride in front of traffic or damned if you ride in the door zone.

While you may not be a big proponent of avoiding the door zone... I noticed another somewhat similar hazard yesterday... I am not sure of the cause... I suspect these folks were cell phone users, or were checking maps or addresses... autos "parked" at the side of the road... no red brake light to indicate they were stopped and too much glare to see if the vehicle is occupied... the hazard is the vehicle suddenly taking off just as you are parallel. It's warm in San Diego, so even exhaust gas is not visible. Oh sure, just as you get right next to the car, you can hear the quiet idle of the engine... but at that point you are right next to the car.... traffic noise tends to hide the noise otherwise. This is not a situation of long lines of parked cars... but an odd car here or there that appears otherwise empty and safe. One is "enticed" to ride close due to the benign appearance.

Bit of a catch 22 there... damned if you ride in front of traffic or damned if you ride in the door zone.

While you may not be a big proponent of avoiding the door zone... I noticed another somewhat similar hazard yesterday... I am not sure of the cause... I suspect these folks were cell phone users, or were checking maps or addresses... autos "parked" at the side of the road... no red brake light to indicate they were stopped and too much glare to see if the vehicle is occupied... the hazard is the vehicle suddenly taking off just as you are parallel. It's warm in San Diego, so even exhaust gas is not visible. Oh sure, just as you get right next to the car, you can hear the quiet idle of the engine... but at that point you are right next to the car.... traffic noise tends to hide the noise otherwise. This is not a situation of long lines of parked cars... but an odd car here or there that appears otherwise empty and safe. One is "enticed" to ride close due to the benign appearance.

If I may re-state from a preceding post:


...When riding I keep this thought in mind: treat every parked car like a gun and assume it is loaded, with an occupant ready to exit.

No problem, I usually do^^^ but some here just don't seem to feel that there is a threat.

Of course it depends on the city/neighborhood you are in... the more urban the setting... with cars densely parked at the curb, the more apt the "gun is loaded."

Of course if you live in a place without curbs and cars just park off the road... the threat may not be as high... and if you are moving slow enough, and can see inside the cars, you may be able to judge the situation car by car.

If I may re-state from a preceding post:

...When riding I keep this thought in mind: treat every parked car like a gun and assume it is loaded, with an occupant ready to exit.

How do you "treat" :rolleyes: moving cars on collision paths with your bicycle, controlled (more or less) by operators who may not be as sharp and as observant as yourself and may or may not be devoting 100% of their attention to your welfare?

. . .I've been doored more times than I can remember . . .

Just think how much better your brain would work if not for all that accumulated trauma.

As already mentioned, a door zone is not for riding. On some narrow streets with long term parking, I am often tempted but usually manage to resist. Imagining a nice long study door suddenly appearing does the trick.

How do you "treat" :rolleyes: moving cars on collision paths with your bicycle, controlled (more or less) by operators who may not be as sharp and as observant as yourself and may or may not be devoting 100% of their attention to your welfare?

Duh... Obviously, he rides heedlessly in front of their path with the assumption that they will pass right through him, like a ghost. Doesn't everyone do that?

In another vein, it's the cyclist's fault for riding in a position that places him or herself in the "door zone," and for failing to notice the potential hazard and taking action to avoid it. Remember Robert Hurst's little admonition from The Art of Urban Cycling,


Using the same circular logic, in another vein any cyclist that places himself in front of traffic and fails to note the possibility of being struck while in that position, and doesn't take action to ride somewhere else is at fault for placing himself in the dangerous position.


...When riding I keep this thought in mind: treat every parked car like a gun and assume it is loaded, with an occupant ready to exit.


How do you "treat" :rolleyes: moving cars on collision paths with your bicycle, controlled (more or less) by operators who may not be as sharp and as observant as yourself and may or may not be devoting 100% of their attention to your welfare?

Duck and cover.

Actually, much of my riding is fortunately away from traffic, even in Boston, because I practice car avoidance--I ride early in the morning, in a reverse commute, and I seek out least-trafficked roads. Even under the most treacherous circumstances though, my main defense is a rearview mirror because I live by Jim's Law of the Road:

No matter how lightly traveled and/or well-paved a road is, a car will likely pass you on the left as you encounter an obstacle on the right.

The person opening the door is at fault. However, that doesn't mean you shouldn't take care to be out of range of doors- it's a case of being cautious enough on the roads to avoid other peoples mistakes, rather than assuming that they will be careful and attentive and play by the rules 100% of the time.

California has a law against it. Uniform law won't apply unless the state has adopted the uniform law.
CA law is still subject to interpretation by a cop at the scene or a court of law.
I have beaten expensive lawyers, and cheap lawyers, not every time. So sometimes the expensive lawyer is full of ... (maybe money, your money maybe).
If you "avoid the door zone" on a bike, WHERE DO YOU RIDE? The center of the road or lane? How long will you live there?
dc

Rush Limbaugh discussed this on his show today. He saw it as unneeded government intervention. He related how down in Florida "seasoned citizens" are notorious for parking wide of the curb and opening their car doors and taking a long time to exit, so people down there learn to anticpate this. He recommended that cyclists do likewise, and in so many words, as I recall, told us to take the lane.


For those of us in Massachusetts the recently passed Bicycle Safety Bill added this provision to state law in our defense:


SECTION 12. Said first paragraph of said section 14 of said chapter 90 is hereby further amended by adding the following sentence:—
No person shall open any door on a motor vehicle unless and until it is reasonably safe to do so and can be done without interfering with the movement of other traffic, including bicyclists and pedestrians. Whoever violates the proceeding sentence shall be punished by a fine of not more than $100.

IMO the driver can and should bear legal responsibility while the cyclist bears the responsibility of riding as aware as possible of door zones and their dangers.

I would not support a state law that would give us any sort of legal immunity while riding in the door zone. If I get doored, it is my problem. If I am driving a motor vehicle, I was passing too close to the parked cars. If I am riding, I was also passing too close to the parked cars.

A problem with my logic is that some lanes are so narrow that your average motor vehicle is forced into the door zone. We don't have that problem when riding unless we are or feel somehow obligated to stay within poorly designed bike lanes.

The person opening the door is at fault. The bike lanes here basically put you in "door prize" zone even if you are in the middle and near the outside of them. I ride towards the outside of the bike lane (away from parked cars" whenever possible but there's also idiot cagers buzzing WAY too close to the bike lane that if I were in the outer third of the bike lane I'd get a side mirror to the elbow or back! :mad:

So I always, and I mean, ALWAYS scan ahead looking into the rear window of cars and into the side mirror of cars. If I see someone in the car I assume immediately that the person will be jumping out, not giving a care to look, at any moment. I start ringing my bell like crazy to bring their attention to me all while glancing over my shoulder to see if I'd get hit by moving out into traffic to avoid a possible door prize and if I can't move out into traffic without getting run over, I start hitting the brakes and screaming not to open the door. :eek:

So far it's worked all but one time with an idiot that flung his door open then had the nerve to stand in the bike lane (!!!) forcing me to swerve into oncoming traffic and narrowly escaping getting run over. Mind you, I was in the bike lane, toward the outside of the bike land. About 3.5-4 feet from parked cars so I was in "door prize free zone", doing everything I could to not get doored, Yet I was nearly doored anyway. :notamused:

BTW, I don't think 3-4 feet is enough room. Most SUV doors and other common vehicle's doors open wider than that and you have to take into account the idiot driver/passenger hopping out and walking AROUND the open door as he's closing it. So that's at least 5.5 feet clearance needed and getting that kind of clearance on busy NYC streets? Please! :notamused:

So I say again, it's the door opener that's at fault for opening the door without first making sure the coast is all clear.

If you "avoid the door zone" on a bike, WHERE DO YOU RIDE? The center of the road or lane? How long will you live there?
dcI have been doing daily cycle commuting since 1982. I stay out of the door zone. And yes, I do take the lane, have even done so in LA. I am still alive and still riding.

No hard stats, but it seems most of the cyclist killed in Hawaii in recent years have mostly been riding on the sidewalk, bike lanes, off the edge of the road. Several other cyclist deaths were tourist riding down the volcano road.