Advocacy & Safety - How many here would "take the lane" on a busy 60MPH arterial road?

Just wondering what you would do on some very typical So Cal arterial roads. Now granted many of the newer roads in So Cal that are high speed do have bike lanes... good or bad.

But there are multilaned arterial roads here that do not have BL... would you take the lane in 60MPH high speed commuting traffic?

Do you consider such a road "bike friendly?"

What area are you talking about?

Generally I would not take the lane with such high traffic.

What area are you talking about?

Generally I would not take the lane with such high traffic.

The best example I can give is in Orange County... Jamboree Road, approaching Newport Beach.

But other examples also exist... such as Miramar Road in San Diego... during rush hour. There is a BL, but it is discontinuous... and west bound, there are scores of driveways.

Kearny Villa Road is a good example... but it has been "fixed" since 2 cyclists were killed on that road... it now has a wide buffer along with the bike lane.

These roads are best left to highly skilled cyclists... not exactly "cyclist friendly."

Something to consider is that one may have to take the lane on any road, if for instance the BL is blocked by any sort of service vehicle.

If I gotta take the lane, I take the lane. It's not like I'm gonna swerve out in front of someone willy-nilly though...what do I look like, HH? :D

I didn't vote though...having to take the lane is not always an indicator of whether a road is bike friendly or not.

depends also if there is a sholder that is wide enough and safer to ride on.

there was a stretch on ikenberry's east coast tour in cape cod that was multi-laned, no sholder and there was no other option but to take the lane. i felt apprehension to say the least on that 10 mile stretch!

is that a 60mph speed limit or 60mph traffic speed? I ride on busy shoulderless 4-lane arterials with a limit of 45mph, where the fastest cars probably go 55. I don't take the lane (allowing cars to pass in the same lane). I voted for not bike friendly, though its far from bike-hostile and I rarely have close calls.

Asking whether such a road is "bike friendly" is obviously just trying to make a point - "friendly" is strictly a relative term (read: comparison), and an arterial obviously isn't going to be friendlier than a residential road.

Asking whether such a road is "bike friendly" is obviously just trying to make a point - "friendly" is strictly a relative term (read: comparison), and an arterial obviously isn't going to be friendlier than a residential road.

Well that depends. For example Broadway through downtown Akron is a 4-6 lane, one-way 35mph arterial where traffic routinely does 50-70mph in many stretches...especially coming up on the freeway ramps. I find it much more bike friendly than many residential streets that people have decided to use as commute short cuts and mow down anything in their path...critters, pets, kids and cyclists included. ;)

I've taken the lane on Roosevelt Blvd once, I thought I was taking a shortcut and ended up on one of the few streets that don't go across. Never again though.

Bike friendly to me is a road with a wide, well paved and debris free shoulder, or better yet, a road without motor vehicles on it. :)

Yes, because my workplace is on such a road. 50 mph posted limit, very narrow lanes and no rideable shoulder. It's either take the lane or take the car. I pedal like hell and finish business as quickly as possible.

"Bike friendly" to me means I can take mom on it comfortably at 10 mph, so in this case I'll say no.

I (usually) would not take the lane. I think some such roads would be bike friendly, some not. One must consider what the shoulder looks like, the volume of traffic, availability of passing lanes, etc.

...what do I look like, HH? :D
:lol:

Yes. I WANT that damned road runner.

If the lanes of this road are too narrow to safely share and there is no bike lane or paved shoulder, then the only option other than taking the lane is to not ride that road.

I can see Cipcom's point when a road like this may be more bike friendly than a residential road. Especially since most arterials have multiple same direction lanes, and if the residential road in question is in a poor state of repair. I didn't vote. There are other factors to consider as to whether a road could be considered bike friendly

Well that depends. For example Broadway through downtown Akron is a 4-6 lane, one-way 35mph arterial where traffic routinely does 50-70mph in many stretches...especially coming up on the freeway ramps. I find it much more bike friendly than many residential streets that people have decided to use as commute short cuts and mow down anything in their path...critters, pets, kids and cyclists included. ;)

Gets into the area of very skilled cyclist... would you take your mom on such a road?

Gets into the area of very skilled cyclist... would you take your mom on such a road?

I've biked on a 45mph (most drivers go 50-60) 4 lane, no shouldered arterial with my 60+ year old dad. Of any busy road in the area, it takes the LEAST skill to ride as all one has to do is stay planted in the middle/left-of-center in the lane. Other roads where there is a discontinuous shoulder available take more skill as one has to balance not getting stuck in a right turn only lane and dealing with entitled *****holes who think cyclists should do anything possible to stay out of their way. Personally, my experience has always been better when there is just a right lane and nothing to the right of it. People are much more understanding when they don't think you are intentionally slowing them down.

I've biked on a 45mph (most drivers go 50-60) 4 lane, no shouldered arterial with my 60+ year old dad. Of any busy road in the area, it takes the LEAST skill to ride as all one has to do is stay planted in the middle/left-of-center in the lane. Other roads where there is a discontinuous shoulder available take more skill as one has to balance not getting stuck in a right turn only lane and dealing with entitled *****holes who think cyclists should do anything possible to stay out of their way. Personally, my experience has always been better when there is just a right lane and nothing to the right of it. People are much more understanding when they don't think you are intentionally slowing them down.

Good points.

I have found that trying to maintain that position in the presence of parked cars (50MPH roads) however does bring the wrath of motorists who seem to feel we should be riding in the door zones. Heck, taking the lane on even a heavily traveled road with a 35MPH speed limit, lined with parked cars, can bring the wrath of motorists. (motorists are working to move at 40MPH)

I have also found motorists less than sympathetic when one takes a lane due to a BL that is discontinuous. In that scenario, it is probably better to have no BL. (similar to your "nothing to the right" situation)

But the real question is would you consider such roads "bike friendly?" If not... what would you like to see to make such a road "bike friendly."

what do I look like, HH? :D

I refuse to answer that. :twitchy:

depends also if there is a sholder that is wide enough and safer to ride on.

there was a stretch on ikenberry's east coast tour in cape cod that was multi-laned, no sholder and there was no other option but to take the lane. i felt apprehension to say the least on that 10 mile stretch!


having the ridden the length of the Cape innumerable times I can imagine which road you might be talking about here (there are alternatives BTW). If you are referring to Route 6A the speed limit is not 60 mph, though cars do occasionally travel on it at close to that speed, in the summers on the Cape drivers tend to be a fairly large percentage of tourists unfamiliar with the roads on their way to beaches, their hotels or cottages or out for the scenery- they may or may not see bikes as part of the tourist traffic and can range from accommodating to unbelievably hostile to the presence of a bike in "their" lane. The locals know the roads better but travel at high speeds and by mid-August have such contempt for cyclists and tourists in any vehicle they will intimidate at a fairly high percentage.

I would more than likely take the lane on such a road and have in the past but admit to loathing such roads and riding on them. I prefer to be as far from the madding crowd as I can get. I loathe driving a car on those roads so it would take a whole lot of denial to convince myself I enjoyed riding a bike on them. :notamused:


edit: a side note- I just voted (would take the lane but consider the road unfriendly) and noticed most responders feel this kind of road is unfriendly to bikes and though some would ride it my guess is most would avoid it, if possible. Often advocates for "take the lane" in every situation will cite the low rate of come from behind collisions on a road like this- maybe that's because so few cyclists choose to ride on such roads.

I'm also still looking for plausible explanations for the increasingly high death rate of cyclists in 45-55 year age range over the past couple of decades. Is there a correlation to older cyclists choosing a "take the lane" position on roads like this to their higher death rate? After all a collision with a car on a road like this tends to be catastrophic. Given the kind of "I'm visible and therefore Invincible" attitude of some "take the lane" proponents it wouldn't surprise me if there were a relationship. Anyone have statistics as to the types of roads and circumstances for fatal bike accidents by age?

But the real question is would you consider such roads "bike friendly?" If not... what would you like to see to make such a road "bike friendly."

I don't want to sound like I am trying to argue based on semantics but the "road" itself cannot be bike (cyclist) friendly. The other drivers who use the road can choose to be cyclist friendly or not regardless of the design of the road. Non-cyclists may see any road on which people travel faster than they can ride a bike as being unfriendly but the non-cyclist opinion of a road is a pretty poor definition of how comfortable it is to ride a bike on a certain road. For all they know, every motorist who uses that road may also be a cyclist and completely understand that on a narrow road, a cyclist's only safe option may be to ride in the center of the lane. Doubtful that that's the case, but I remember when I was new to cycling, I made a lot of assumptions about how motorists would treat me on certain types of roads and never bothered to confirm them in those days. When I finally did, I was always surprised at how tolerant motorists were, especially on multilane narrow outside lane roads, the type I previously avoided.

I've had great rides on "bad" roads and terrible rides on "good" roads. It all comes down to who you happen to encounter while you're out there. Some road types tend to bring out the best/worst in motorists though.

Gets into the area of very skilled cyclist... would you take your mom on such a road?

Yep...it don't take much skill to hold your line in the rightmost lane...or for Mom to follow my lead. Bout the only move that requires any experience is dealing with the RTOL at some intersections and maybe dealing with the occasional double-parked car. The freeway on-ramps take more balls than skill...so yes, perhaps Mom and other females may be lacking in that area. :eek:

Well, I'm not familiar with this roads but regardless if it has a bike lane, paved shoulder or a wide outer lane, either way is ok. If I had to take the lane, then I would prefer to avoid using that road if possible.

There's one road like you seem to describe where I live, 2 lanes on each side, narrow lanes and a curb to the side so one must take the lane, traffic is fast with medium to heavy density. It is not the end of the world to use it, no big deal overall really. However, the main objection is that doing so greatly reduces my "fun" of riding, and fun is the main reason I prefer to get around using a bicycle. So I think of it as a "bad" or "unfreindly" road.

Yep...it don't take much skill to hold your line in the rightmost lane...or for Mom to follow my lead. Bout the only move that requires any experience is dealing with the RTOL at some intersections and maybe dealing with the occasional double-parked car. The freeway on-ramps take more balls than skill...so yes, perhaps Mom and other females may be lacking in that area. :eek:

Com'on... your mom lacking in "that area..." She raised you! ;)

i voted to take the lane and bike friendly, the road isn't the problem the drivers are bike unfriendly. i was on one of these roads recently and it was exciting to say the least. In my small city the speed limit is 25MPH but frequently drivers get up to 35-40 MPH. I always take the lane except in tourist season when I filter because the average speed goes down to 5-10MPH stop and go. I feel sorry for those that need these roads to ride and blessed that I live here.

i voted to take the lane and bike friendly, the road isn't the problem the drivers are bike unfriendly. i was on one of these roads recently and it was exciting to say the least. In my small city the speed limit is 25MPH but frequently drivers get up to 35-40 MPH. I always take the lane except in tourist season when I filter because the average speed goes down to 5-10MPH stop and go. I feel sorry for those that need these roads to ride and blessed that I live here.


I lived in Newport ages ago and riding around the town and Ocean Drive was very manageable but any forays out of Newport and particularly off Aquidneck Island required riding either 114 or 138 neither of which was too "bike friendly". Have there been more improvements to those roads? I remember I used to snake around on Wapping Road and other roads to avoid taking these roads whenever possible but sometimes I'd just grin and bear it. Really tough on a summer night to negotiate these roads.

It would be siucide here in Detroit and IMHO here you would be insane to do it . Maybe its better in Ca but I doubt it .:twitchy:

If I gotta take the lane, I take the lane. It's not like I'm gonna swerve out in front of someone willy-nilly though...what do I look like, HH? :D

This comment may be funny, but it is also an inaccurate representation of our dearly departed's dynamic lateral lane positioning technique. It's about defaulting to a more centered lane position in the absence of faster same direction traffic, and moving aside to allow these vehicles to pass when safe and reasonable to do so. Swerving in front of traffic "willy-nilly" was never any part of it.

Just wondering what you would do...

I did not vote.

I would generally not take a lane on 60 mph roads/highways. I, however, DO feel comfortable with traffic whizzing past my shoulder at close range. I use a helmet mounted mirror to keep an eye on things and would bail onto the "rough" if a wide load or some other hazard approacheth me from the rear. Otherwise, I am on/near the fog line if the road surface and debris allows.

When balanced on 2 wheels - NOTHING is safe.

I'm also still looking for plausible explanations for the increasingly high death rate of cyclists in 45-55 year age range over the past couple of decades. Is there a correlation to older cyclists choosing a "take the lane" position on roads like this to their higher death rate? After all a collision with a car on a road like this tends to be catastrophic. Given the kind of "I'm visible and therefore Invincible" attitude of some "take the lane" proponents it wouldn't surprise me if there were a relationship. Anyone have statistics as to the types of roads and circumstances for fatal bike accidents by age?


either that, or much less attentive motorists. The amount of 'skilled' bicyclists being taken out by clipboard reaching, asleep, or otherwise distracted motorists is alarming.

The developing social norms of the sub-par american lazy driver are disturbing to me as a bicyclist sharing the roads with this new standard of american motorist.

Moms riding roads comfortably at 10 miles an hour could be considered a metric for bike-friendliness.


I think the impression of what is a 'bike-friendly' road changes with experience. Roads I considered uncomfortable in my pre-teen and teen years cycling are buttercakes.

bike UN-friendly roads are a palpable experience.

tuning out the bad drivers (HH professed to doing this so habitually he no longer noticed aggressive motorist behaviors) is a coping skill a lot of us on here have developed.

thick skin, take the lane, all roads are friendly - say some.

Bike un-friendly is a palpable experience. Think

"Twilight, rush hour, an unfamiliar part of a hilly town on an industrial arterial approaching a huge interchange......

This comment may be funny, but it is also an inaccurate representation of our dearly departed's dynamic lateral lane positioning technique. It's about defaulting to a more centered lane position in the absence of faster same direction traffic, and moving aside to allow these vehicles to pass when safe and reasonable to do so. Swerving in front of traffic "willy-nilly" was never any part of it.

Granted...for the most part. There were many times HH would get a bit overzealous modifying his DLLP on-the-fly, giving some of us plenty of comedy material at his expense. ;)

I lived in Newport ages ago and riding around the town and Ocean Drive was very manageable but any forays out of Newport and particularly off Aquidneck Island required riding either 114 or 138 neither of which was too "bike friendly". Have there been more improvements to those roads? I remember I used to snake around on Wapping Road and other roads to avoid taking these roads whenever possible but sometimes I'd just grin and bear it. Really tough on a summer night to negotiate these roads.

It's still pretty much the same if you are in a hurry, but there are a lot of stop lights on both roads now and depending on what side of the island you want to ride there is a bike lane on the navy base between Portsmouth and Middletown. I rode my 54 Raleigh from Providence to Newport and the distance on the main roads was maybe four miles altoghether. I just take the lane and plan my ride to avoid rush hour and last call. There will always be horn blowers and RI and Mass have worst drivers in america. I have a thick skin.

I voted take the lane/unfriendly, but with qualifications. First, I'm assuming the question assumes no usable shoulder and the lane is too narrow to be shared. Secondly, I might do so under good daylight visibility conditions, if I'm in the mood to be gutsy and that road is the most direct route, but my decision will probably be different at night or in limited visibility conditions.

I do have such an arterial, a bridge actually (Route 1 on this map (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=100258745366597791796.0004604d7572a136b5b95&ll=43.642791,-70.283768&spn=0.010621,0.027809&t=h&z=16)), and I do use it regularly in daylight. The posted speed is 45, changing to 35 reaching the northern end, but of course the cars go much faster than that, probably 60, some of them. Part of the traffic is just exiting an Interstate, and the design of the bridge does nothing to slow them down from that mindset. The narrow lanes terminate at a curb with no shoulder at all, drain grates stick 2' into the lane, and there is much bad pavement on the right, so there's not much choice about where to ride. (There are sidewalks, elevated about 6" above the road, with guardrails below a cyclist's center of gravity. I tried that once, just to see what it was like; I prefer the road.)

I actually get very good passing on this road (in my hi-viz flourescent jacket), because sight lines are good, there are two lanes each way, and only moderate traffic. So yes, it doesn't take that much skill beyond riding a straight line, but that still doesn't mean it's pleasant. I still feel a little apprehensive when I do it, and I can totally understand it not being the choice even of many cyclists.

My opinion is that the most bike-friendly infrastructure would be a wide outside lane and "Share the Road" signs. I understand that many people would prefer a lined shoulder or bike lane, and I could accept that, although that's not my first choice, for reasons that many on this forum will be able to imagine but we needn't go into on this thread. :innocent:

i wouldn't ride on such a road. i hate traffic, especially the fast kind.

Been there and done that -- bunches of times -- but it definitely ain't "bike friendly" by any measure.

One such road I ride fairly frequently is like that... it has shoulders in some stretches, but for about 2/3rds or more you have to control the right lane, as there are no shoulders, sidewalks, or anything else. It's a one-way-in, one-way-out corridor for what was originally designed 25-30 years ago to be a bedroom community just outside Little Rock.

Been there and done that -- bunches of times -- but it definitely ain't "bike friendly" by any measure.

One such road I ride fairly frequently is like that... it has shoulders in some stretches, but for about 2/3rds or more you have to control the right lane, as there are no shoulders, sidewalks, or anything else. It's a one-way-in, one-way-out corridor for what was originally designed 25-30 years ago to be a bedroom community just outside Little Rock.

As you are an LCI, I have to ask you... how many of your new grads do you feel would be able to handle such a road?

What would you do to make such a road "bike friendly?"

Genec!

You know you can't ask a LCI how to make a road more bike friendly!

That's anathema to the VC edumakation message.

i would stay the heck away from that road in the first place, also, is there a shoulder? and is it a necessary route?

I voted with the majority on this one, but in real life I just wouldn't use that road. If that was the only way to get my bike to work, I'd take the bus (or drive if I had to).

It only takes one idiot 2 seconds on a cell phone to kill you.

Genec!

You know you can't ask a LCI how to make a road more bike friendly!

That's anathema to the VC edumakation message.

He already admitted it wasn't exactly bike friendly... so we are just going from that point on.

As you are an LCI, I have to ask you... how many of your new grads do you feel would be able to handle such a road?

It depends on the student, and at what level we're trying to teach. Traffic Skills 101, which is the revamp of the old "Road I" course with a slick new student handbook and a modified set of parking lot drills, is mostly aimed at downtown/suburban traffic handling. Riding a street like Maumelle Boulevard (the aforementioned high-speed arterial) is not a skill that you really want to throw students into at the beginner level. This sort of traffic situation is a continuing hot topic on the private LCI listserver, just how do you get students to the level of confidence to handle these situations? Add to the mix that we're a diverse and highly-opinionated group,and we often have difficulty agreeing with each other what the best tactic might be.

The "Smart Cycling" program (where Traffic Skills 101 is the core course) teaches a basic set of skills and principles for riding in traffic. Those don't really change from riding the quiet residential streets up to multi-lane streets and on to the state highways. The basic skills are to ride on the right, with the flow of traffic; to obey traffic laws, signs, and signals, to yield right-of-way when required, to observe the principle of lane positioning at intersections (e.g., be in the lane appropriate to where you're planning to go), and speed positioning when between intersections (faster traffic to the left, slower traffic to the right, at the curb or off the road if you're stopped). I incorporate these principles into what I call the "Five Be's", e.g. Be Visible, Be Predictable, Be Alert, Be Assertive, and Be Courteous.

What changes when you have more lanes, more traffic, and higher vehicle speeds is the increased pressure that the cyclist feels as you throw in more stuff and more danger that he or she has to keep track of. I tell my students that we're giving them a set of skills and safe practices that will let them function anywhere they want to ride, within their level or perception of comfort. And that's the key for anyone... Being a little nervous about a particular traffic situation is okay... that comes from the mental pressure of being in those types of situations, and it reminds us to be alert, and pay attention to what we're doing. Being scared is an early warning sign that we're approaching the outer limit of our experience or comfort level, and we're approaching the point where we may be in over our heads. So, practice these skills and principles where you feel comfortable, and work up to more complex situations as you gain confidence in yourself.

But then I've had students come into the Road I classes specifically wanting to learn how to handle that street, since they wanted to bike commute and that's the only road in or out of that little community. I handle most of this during the on-road part of the class. After the lecture/theory part of the course, we start off in a big parking lot with some basic handling skills and avoidance maneuvers. I start them off on residential streets where we get comfortable with lane positioning, basic left and right turns, negotiating intersections, etc. I'll lead the small group through a situation the first time or two, then I drop to the rear and let the students practice working their way through there. Then we move over to streets where we have more lanes, and more traffic to deal with, as well as hazards like bad pavement, pavement repairs, train & trolley tracks, etc.. Negotiating lane changes and working at lane control plays a heavy part here, learning what it feels like and what you can do to improve your positioning. Then we go off and find a high-traffic, multi-lane intersection and practice there, doing the standard vehicular turns as well as tactics like the box left and pedestrian left turns for when the motorists just flat won't give you a break. One of the last passes on what is now their "road test" is when we head down to the River Market district and make a couple of loops through a narrow street wher you deal with motor and horse traffic, crosswalks, door zones, jaywalking pedestrians, all flavors of traffic signals, street car tracks, road repairs, and various sorts of turn lanes. When they can ride that with confidence, I feel okay about signing their certificates.

One of the best things about this LCI business is watching your guys realize how they can control these situations, and start steadily improving in confidence as the hours go by out there. And for the most part, I've seen my students riding these sorts of streets with confidence after they come out of the course. I've seen it work for everyone from the seasoned club riders (despite a sizable degree of recidivism from some of those folks) down to someone returning to cycling after being off the bike for 30 years, and riding a Wal-Mart mountain bike.

In Traffic Skills 201, the old "Road II," we spend most of our road time looping around and running up and down the high traffic arterials and multi-lane intersections... this is the level at which the road test for LCIs is given... get on out there and mix it up with the evening rush hour traffic ;-) Since this class is also a lot about what most folks consider club, or fitness cycling, we get out on some of the rural highways and work the same principles. TS 201 requires that you've been through Road I or TS 101 at some time in the past, so we start off with a short refresher and move quickly into what the Instructor Manual refers to as "more complex traffic situations."

And oddly enough, one of the local mass century rides takes all their riders, of whatever skill level or ability, right straight up Maumelle Boulevard en masse, with no road closure for motor vehicles. It's hairy.


What would you do to make such a road "bike friendly?"


I have sort of a mountain biker philosophy about this. Ride the mountain/road; you don't necessarily have to make the mountain/road ridable. I'm not a trails/separated facility guy, every traffic lane that doesn't have a "NO BIKES ALLOWED" sign is a bike lane to me. But there are many ways to calm traffic on these things:

Lower speed limits, with enforcement. (This is probably the most important thing your can do, get everyone to slow the hell down...)
Wide shoulders on rural sections of the roadway
Wide (>14') right-hand travel lanes
Sharrows or "SHARE THE ROAD" signs clearly marked and visible to motorists
Minimize the number of driveways entering that stretch of road or street
Keep the roadway and shoulders/bike lanes swept and clean.

But maybe today's Yehuda Moon cartoon catches this conundrum best:
http://http://www.yehudamoon.com/images/strips/2009-02-20.gif

http://www.yehudamoon.com/index.php?date=2009-02-20

Tom
#1853

What changes when you have more lanes, more traffic, and higher vehicle speeds is the increased pressure that the cyclist feels as you throw in more stuff and more danger that he or she has to keep track of. I tell my students that we're giving them a set of skills and safe practices that will let them function anywhere they want to ride, within their level or perception of comfort. And that's the key for anyone... Being a little nervous about a particular traffic situation is okay... that comes from the mental pressure of being in those types of situations, and it reminds us to be alert, and pay attention to what we're doing. Being scared is an early warning sign that we're approaching the outer limit of our experience or comfort level, and we're approaching the point where we may be in over our heads. So, practice these skills and principles where you feel comfortable, and work up to more complex situations as you gain confidence in yourself.



It is exactly that increased sense of danger and pressure that I think keeps many folks who could ride, from doing so.




But then I've had students come into the Road I classes specifically wanting to learn how to handle that street, since they wanted to bike commute and that's the only road in or out of that little community. I handle most of this during the on-road part of the class. After the lecture/theory part of the course, we start off in a big parking lot with some basic handling skills and avoidance maneuvers. I start them off on residential streets where we get comfortable with lane positioning, basic left and right turns, negotiating intersections, etc. I'll lead the small group through a situation the first time or two, then I drop to the rear and let the students practice working their way through there. Then we move over to streets where we have more lanes, and more traffic to deal with, as well as hazards like bad pavement, pavement repairs, train & trolley tracks, etc.. Negotiating lane changes and working at lane control plays a heavy part here, learning what it feels like and what you can do to improve your positioning. Then we go off and find a high-traffic, multi-lane intersection and practice there, doing the standard vehicular turns as well as tactics like the box left and pedestrian left turns for when the motorists just flat won't give you a break. One of the last passes on what is now their "road test" is when we head down to the River Market district and make a couple of loops through a narrow street wher you deal with motor and horse traffic, crosswalks, door zones, jaywalking pedestrians, all flavors of traffic signals, street car tracks, road repairs, and various sorts of turn lanes. When they can ride that with confidence, I feel okay about signing their certificates.



After having commuting and touring for over 25 years, I took Road 1 and Road 2 classes a few years ago. I found I had pretty much accumulated (through "hard knocks") all that they had to teach, and was somewhat disappointed that the class wasn't more in depth or advanced. The reality is that negotiating (making left turns, taking the lane) on high speed roads is still something of an iffy situation... especially in light of the reality that the Yehuda cartoon conveys.
http://www.yehudamoon.com/index.php?date=2009-02-20

I don't think most motorists ever really intend to hit us, but "lesson teaching" by aggressive motorists can go horribly wrong... and indeed there are some real idiots out there. (there was a group of guys that were getting their "jollys" by opening the car door into cyclists, many years ago, here)




And oddly enough, one of the local mass century rides takes all their riders, of whatever skill level or ability, right straight up Maumelle Boulevard en masse, with no road closure for motor vehicles. It's hairy.

Sure, but a group is always far more visible than a single cyclist... especially at higher driver speeds...



I have sort of a mountain biker philosophy about this. Ride the mountain/road; you don't necessarily have to make the mountain/road ridable. I'm not a trails/separated facility guy, every traffic lane that doesn't have a "NO BIKES ALLOWED" sign is a bike lane to me. But there are many ways to calm traffic on these things:

Lower speed limits, with enforcement. (This is probably the most important thing your can do, get everyone to slow the hell down...)
Wide shoulders on rural sections of the roadway
Wide (>14') right-hand travel lanes
Sharrows or "SHARE THE ROAD" signs clearly marked and visible to motorists
Minimize the number of driveways entering that stretch of road or street
Keep the roadway and shoulders/bike lanes swept and clean.


Tom
#1853

Places in Europe have taken a decidedly different tack from your "Ride the mountain/road," stance... with dramatically higher numbers for bicycle modal share. Having ridden in some of these places, I have to say riding without that "increased pressure/increased danger" is quite nice. Something you really have to experience to understand.

Places in Europe have taken a decidedly different tack from your "Ride the mountain/road," stance... with dramatically higher numbers for bicycle modal share. Having ridden in some of these places, I have to say riding without that "increased pressure/increased danger" is quite nice. Something you really have to experience to understand.

Yep... I lived and rode in Germany for six years, and the European cycling experience is completely different from here in the States. Traffic law there is subtly different, and the drivers education program for all is completely different.

I currently live in a mostly rural, exceptionally car-centric state and mixed rural/urban community. For the most part, bikes are seen as "toys" by both motorists and cyclists alike, so we've got an enormous outreach effort to do just to get the parties aware of what the law actually says. For the past several years the state highway department has consistently turned back the TEA funding set aside for bicycling & pedestrian facilities. If you want to ride your bike extensively in Arkansas, you pretty much need to learn the "vehicular" style because there are very few bike lanes or separate facilities anywhere, much less going where you want or need to go. We're making progress here in the central part of the state, and starting to see some changes in the NW corner, but the overall mindset is very car-centric.

I ride the roads as I find them, pretty much because if I waited for someone to make them bike-friendly, I'd be waiting for a long, long time and I'd never get anywhere ;-)

Yep... I lived and rode in Germany for six years, and the European cycling experience is completely different from here in the States. Traffic law there is subtly different, and the drivers education program for all is completely different.

I currently live in a mostly rural, exceptionally car-centric state and mixed rural/urban community. For the most part, bikes are seen as "toys" by both motorists and cyclists alike, so we've got an enormous outreach effort to do just to get the parties aware of what the law actually says. For the past several years the state highway department has consistently turned back the TEA funding set aside for bicycling & pedestrian facilities. If you want to ride your bike extensively in Arkansas, you pretty much need to learn the "vehicular" style because there are very few bike lanes or separate facilities anywhere, much less going where you want or need to go. We're making progress here in the central part of the state, and starting to see some changes in the NW corner, but the overall mindset is very car-centric.

I ride the roads as I find them, pretty much because if I waited for someone to make them bike-friendly, I'd be waiting for a long, long time and I'd never get anywhere ;-)

I hear ya... and basically tend to agree that with the conditions of today, in the US, there is no other way but vehicular cycling... which is really nothing but a coping mechanism for the auto centric road conditions we have. (BTW I have commuted and toured for well over 30 years in quite a variety of locations)

What frosts my hide is that by adopting and holding to VC "as the only way..." we encourage situations like that "turning back of the TEA funding;" meanwhile, road speeds only climb higher (in spite of posted limits), road design engineers continue to turn out roads that look more and more like freeway lanes, and cars get larger and faster. (I saw something the other day that outlined exactly how much larger and faster and more powerful cars on average have become since 1974... it is not a good trend... unless you are a motorist)

John Forester in a private email to me relished his youth and vehicular cycling from 1936 "when everyone did it." Well, it is not 1936, nor even 1974. If we expect cycling to ever really be a part of the overall transportation picture, in the US, it has to be as "pressure and danger free" as driving. And we are not getting there with an "every lane is a bike lane" mentality.

This is why, in spite of the fact that I am a well experienced vehicular cyclist, I strongly encourage modification of our auto centric environment in a manner that supports and encourages the use of the bicycle. I fully expect this effort may take well over the 40 years or so that such changes took to implement in Copenhagen; but unless there is such support... I doubt that cycling in this country will ever be anything but a "game" for the few and brave.

I voted, "I would take the lane but do not consider such a road bike friendly".

In fact I ride a road like this every day on my commute and I take the lane...despite the fact that part of the road in question has a shoulder and (for part of it) a separated parallel path. I could go into all the reasons why but suffice to say I've determined it's safer. If drivers want to pass me, they can use the other lane (which, btw, is exactly what I told the police officer who pulled me over for taking the lane on this road).

I would take the lane on a busy arterial if it was safe and necessary, but I think in many states arterials MARKED for 60 mph will be limited access, and at least in Michigan and Illinois bikes are not permitted on those roads. Whenever I take the lane I look backwards real carefully, because to move over like that is essentially a lane change, and our hand signals are not commonly seen by drivers.

But definitely, an arterial on which people routinely speed at 60, and which has lane edge issues that necessitate taking the lane, is not a bike-friendly road.

For a driver going 60 mph, dealing with bicycles is not part of their mental model of what fast driving is, so they are not mentally prepared for us. Plus, the lanes are probably not designed for easy driving at that speed even without bikes, so drivers might not even be capable of safely or at least smoothly accommodating us, without themselves causing significant traffic conflicts.

So I say take the lane if we need to, but try to be aware of what drivers may have to do if they are cognitively near their limits.

Sharrows or "SHARE THE ROAD" signs clearly marked and visible to motorists

over at chainguard, where the seriously off-kilter bicycling obstructionists gather under the banner of Vehikular Cycling, in a discussion about sharrows on narrow laned, high ADT roads that serve as dedicated bike routes-
sharrows were treated with EXTREME scorn and derision.

it's disgusting that a cadre of people that call themselves bicyclists would be against sharrows. 'sends the wrong message' and such not.

disgusting.

While I'm not crazy about sharrows on narrow high ADT roads the chainguard group making a major battle over everything and anything bicycle are only shooting themselves in the foot. Any fool can oppose change but it takes a special person and insight to empower positive change. Failure to recognize the status quo is not good and failure to identify in what direction to focus positive change in are the two biggest short comings of the group.