Tandem Cycling - Realy, how fast.

Out of curiosity, when riding without a group, not training hard or racing, what speeds do you folks ride and maintain for say 20 miles with no stops.

Granted it's not always flat terrain, so this can have an effect.

Just looking for insight from other teams.

PK

Again, on average and riding junk mileage tempo by ourselves with no one to draft and no rabbits to chase....

Flat's about 19-20
Rolling about 17-18
Hilly about 16 - 17 assuming a loop ride
Mountains 13- 15 depending on steepness and assuming it's a loop ride

Amended:
HC Mountains 9 - 12 where HC = Hors Category or 'Son of a _itch", thigh busting, lung burning double digit % grades or X miles @ 8% @ 5 mph climbs

Again, on average and riding junk mileage tempo by ourselves with no one to draft and no rabbits to chase....

Flat's about 19-20
Rolling about 17-18
Hilly about 16 - 17 assuming a loop ride
Mountains 13- 15 depending on steepness and assuming it's a loop ride

Thanks TG, this gives me a good basis to see where we fall and help me work with the wife on issues of her allergies and asthma, or fitness.

Our flats are pretty steady 19 - 20
Rolling terrain is tough as it's really flat where we live.
Hills, this will give her issues, as big efforts lately have been tough for her breathing
Mountains are why I asked, if we need to do Tahoe in June, I need to keep her upbeat while getting some more high aerobic and anaerobic efforts under her belt.

I'm starting to doubt myself about our decisions for her allergies and asthma vs loss of fitness.

We did an event on Valentines day, 35 or 50 miles off road, our choice. We took the mountain tandem. All was real good, smooth and acceptably quick until several miles after the first sag about 16 miles in, then as if a switch were flipped, she was done and nothing (resting or allergy stuff including a puffer) could get our pace or her energy back. Maybe the dust, or possibly to much road and not enough off road. We did finish the 35 but it was crawling out the last 15 miles. Basically survival mode to finish. Thing is this should have been a fairly easy ride with 50 a definite possibility. She told me she was up for it and felt good when we started. I don't demand much so our pace was good. Oh well.

Any thoughts or suggestions I'm open.

Thanks Folks.

PK

So you have ruled out that she bonked due to not enough food and drink?

We have found for long 100 mile bike rides in which we are riding for a good placing or time we need to eat every half hour from the start of the race or we will bonk. It has also taken us a while to find the correct combo of food and drink for us. Some products work and some don't. Its different for everyone.

Flat's about 20+
Rolling about 17-20
Long Hills about 12 - 15. Crawl around 10 at the top. Thats always fun!

...work with the wife on issues of her allergies and asthma, or fitness.
...as big efforts lately have been tough for her breathing...until several miles after the first sag about 16 miles in, then as if a switch were flipped, she was done and nothing (resting or allergy stuff including a puffer) could get our pace or her energy back....PK

From an earlier post your wife made about the Tahoe ride fundraiser, she mentioned that training would start with a 15 mile ride at the beginning of February. If she started from that level two weeks ago, then going twice that far in two weeks time could be too much too soon. Are you riding several times a week or weekends only? It could be just the lack of aerobic conditioning. I think that could have been enough by itself but adding allergies and asthma to the mix may have just been too much.

If the longer distance riding is as new for her as the other post made it sound, I would definitely get in touch with the doctor treating her allergies and asthma and let them know that she is wanting to do some serious exercise. The exertion and hard breathing can certainly bring on exercised-induced asthma if she suffers from that. I believe that will call for a more regimented preventive maintenance program instead of using the crisis puffer after the asthma hits.

As your conditioning continues, if you have access to a spin class where the instructor leads you up some simulated climbs (higher tension, lower cadence and probably harder breathing) it may give you all a a preview of what you're in for.

I would make sure you have a gear that Floridians think is ridiculously low for your Tahoe trip.

Bloomington, IN

Download a program called Bikemaster 3.0 it will give distance and elevation information for many rides in Northern California including the Lake Tahoe ride. You will most likely be doing the 97.3 mile Tahoe roundabout. Select that ride after it opens click end, it will show you route and elevation information. In the bottom right hand corner take a look at predictions it will give you some ideas of ride times. The ride times can be adjusted by using the sliders for pace and riding factor. If you can find or piece together some routes that are similar to something you already have data on I think you will find the predictions to be pretty accurate.

Man, you guys are cooking. My wife & I road 50 miles today & averaged 16.5 mph. This was on the Silver Comet Trail That is for the most part flat. It doe's have plenty of road crossings that require a complete stop. On some stretches we maintained 22-23 mph.

This is a question without a meaningful answer. It so much depends on circumstances, and terrain.

And unless its a race the answer is without meaning.

Short answer for us is faster than some, slower than others.

We'll shoot to do the state TT championship this year sub 58 minutes. Extrapolating from that, the answer would be 25-26 mph for 20 miles.

However if you look at a typical endurance miles ride, our average for a 20 mile ride might vary from 17-23 mph.

And if it was a ride on very hilly terrain, we might torch ourselves to average 14mph.

You really can't compare across different terrain, different wind conditions, and diferent motivations.

Thus if you want to know where you stack up, enter a race. If you don't care to race don't worry about it.

My wife & I road 50 miles today & averaged 16.5 mph. This was on the Silver Comet Trail That is for the most part flat.

The Silver Comet is actually very deceiving. In addition to those numerous stops that you run into closer in towards Atlanta, there's a slight downward grade to it as you move west towards Rockmart and Alabama. I want to say that when we rode from the Rockmart end to the Silver Comet Depot and back there was something like 1,000' of net gain... but it all came at you in very long, gradual elevation changes as is the norm for rails-to-trail conversions. Frankly, I'd rather climb Kennesaw Mtn. (800' in 1.2 miles) vs. 900' over 30 miles.


And unless its a race the answer is without meaning.

... and this is why we will not ever begin to ride competitively and are thankful that we never did.

I lost all interest in recreational skiing, sailing and motorcycles once I turned to competition and once competition was logistically impractical, I simply stopped skiing, sailing and riding motorcycles. I only returned to motorcycles after a 9-year hiatus for commuting with the exception of three 'recreational' rides into the regional Mountains: twice with my wife in conjunction with the Tour de Georgia and once to Deal's Gap because, well, it was on my Bucket List. I've only ever felt the urge to sneak back onto a track with a motorcycle twice in the 10 years to drag my knees through a few corners since getting back onto motorcycles 'just to get it out of my system'. But aside from that, again, all of the riding urges beyond basic transportation are gone. Moreover, the latter probably has as much to do with my intense interest in the engineering, design and artistic nature of motorcycles than anything else.

However, tandeming remains a purely recreational activity and it's rather easy to know what your average speeds are... you simply look at your computer and make a mental note of your speeds after riding familiar loop rides over many, many years. As to why this is one of the most-often asked questions among recreational cyclists, who knows... Probably just another one of hundreds of ways that humans always seem to find to measure themselves against others. Less I digress, since we don't train the only changes we see are the typical loss of fitness that comes with reduced riding during the winter months as we put a few extra pounds on our bodies and, of course, a slight decrease in performance year-over-year as we get a bit older. It's a personal choice but, thankfully, we are still able to enjoy riding without any other purpose than spending time together, spending time with friends and perhaps getting a little exercise in the process.

Every now and again there is a temptation to resume 'training' and riding with the racer boys as I did before introducing Debbie to tandems many, many years ago but, well, where's the fun in that? That's the path I was on before introducing Debbie to tandems so that we could spend time together because, as it was, every spare minute that I had was spent off cycling and training while she sold real estate: we hardly saw each other except when passing in the morning and evening. The tandem reintroduced us to each other and gave us the treasure of many, many new friends and a common social life that was truly ours, not his or hers. Sure, we'll still do our best to keep up with the faster teams but, at the same time, we recognize our limitations and often times simply opt to drop off the back and enjoy the ride.

Just my .02. Kudo and props to those of you who find enjoyment in training and competition and in particular to those who can also throttle back and smell the roses. I'm just not wired that way.

Guys I didn't ask based on wanting to go faster or race. I have many parallels to Tandem geek about my motorcycle and bicycle adventures of the past. For me now it's rides about my wife and I enjoying time together, whether on what is now the preferred method of tandeming or single bikes.

I asked to get an idea of some sort, and I realize the multitude of variables.
These few posts have been a huge help.

Something is not quite right and I'm kind of asking not only for ideas but also based on the fact that we have never yet ridden with other tandems, so gauging performance is tough.

In the end I appreciate all replies. It's good to have others ideas and opinions, it can make you think about other things.

PK

So you have ruled out that she bonked due to not enough food and drink?

We have found for long 100 mile bike rides in which we are riding for a good placing or time we need to eat every half hour from the start of the race or we will bonk. It has also taken us a while to find the correct combo of food and drink for us. Some products work and some don't. Its different for everyone.

She does pretty good with eating before a ride, especially a longer specialty type ride. Her breakfast was good, she snacked at sags, and she hydrated starting the day before. Rest can always be better but wasn't to bad for a road trip. Anything is possible, won't rule it out.

PK

and once to Deal's Gap because, well, it was on my Bucket List.

Yeah! I'd put this ride on my Bucket List also! I rode the Dragon last summer on my bicycle while visiting friends in Knoxville. When I stopped at Deal's, you should have seen the reaction I received from all the motorbike guys & gals; they couldn't believe I'd rode the Dragon on my bike. I found out about the Dragon from a local bike shop wrench while I was getting my bike repaired (another set of wheels bit the dust). Great ride, that I plan to do again the next time I'm back in Knoxville; so long as it's not a weekend. I don't think I'd want to try riding this rode on a summer weekend due to all the bike & car traffic.

From an earlier post your wife made about the Tahoe ride fundraiser, she mentioned that training would start with a 15 mile ride at the beginning of February. If she started from that level two weeks ago, then going twice that far in two weeks time could be too much too soon. Are you riding several times a week or weekends only? It could be just the lack of aerobic conditioning. I think that could have been enough by itself but adding allergies and asthma to the mix may have just been too much.

If the longer distance riding is as new for her as the other post made it sound, I would definitely get in touch with the doctor treating her allergies and asthma and let them know that she is wanting to do some serious exercise. The exertion and hard breathing can certainly bring on exercised-induced asthma if she suffers from that. I believe that will call for a more regimented preventive maintenance program instead of using the crisis puffer after the asthma hits.

As your conditioning continues, if you have access to a spin class where the instructor leads you up some simulated climbs (higher tension, lower cadence and probably harder breathing) it may give you all a a preview of what you're in for.

I would make sure you have a gear that Floridians think is ridiculously low for your Tahoe trip.

Bloomington, IN

A lot of good information.

Some is already in place but I didn't detail it before.
As a rider she does pretty well overall, this is why I'm concerned.
When she mentions the 15 mile training and stuff, I remind her that this is 15 miles on road. Her personality is one that still thinks 15 miles of easy pace on road is the same as 15 of off road cycling with about a two hour ride through soft terrain in heat and humidity.

In an effort to lessen her time in the woods, and around plants and allergy things, I convinced her we should get the road tandem. Other than some fitting issues she took to it very well. Prior to us even thinking about the Team In Training ride in Tahoe. We were doing 20 to 25 mile road rides, with as much climbing as our area allows. These 15, then 20, now 25 mile group rides at 15-17 mph she is fine on. The new bike and more saddle time are helping with her seated comfort.

Training during the week needs to be improved, she has done one spin class recently, but has done some a while back.

In regards to the medical or doctor stuff, we are very fortunate. Her allergy doctor is also a pilot, and I have been maintaining his aircraft squadron for about twenty years. He also cycles, and understands most of what we do. He has her taking not only the puffer but Advair. Our daughter also previously worked / ran one of his offices, so she is constantly reminding or advising her mom also. You would think I'd fully accept this as all good, but sometimes I wonder if this is the root to some of this.

Gearing wise, yes I have a wide ratio 4WD low type cassette for when needed, currently I have a more Florida based closer ratio cassette to minimize gaps. Consider too we have a triple front chainring set.

Your mention of aerobic fitness is my main thought also. As I think back, prior to the road tandem, all we did was off road. I'm wondering if my idea of less time in the woods, to minimize allergy issues, also, removed her from short burst aerobic type exercise. The ride Saturday went good, until we rode some technical stuff, including a couple of short abrupt climbs. While these would have normally been easy, I wonder if had we continued more off road riding, possibly the more steady road pace took away her previous ability to ramp up and ramp down.

Thanks for some added insight.

PK

Download a program called Bikemaster 3.0 it will give distance and elevation information for many rides in Northern California including the Lake Tahoe ride. You will most likely be doing the 97.3 mile Tahoe roundabout. Select that ride after it opens click end, it will show you route and elevation information. In the bottom right hand corner take a look at predictions it will give you some ideas of ride times. The ride times can be adjusted by using the sliders for pace and riding factor. If you can find or piece together some routes that are similar to something you already have data on I think you will find the predictions to be pretty accurate.


Will check it out, thanks for the information.

PK

Man, you guys are cooking. My wife & I road 50 miles today & averaged 16.5 mph. This was on the Silver Comet Trail That is for the most part flat. It doe's have plenty of road crossings that require a complete stop. On some stretches we maintained 22-23 mph.

If you are smiling and having fun, it's all good to me.

PK

This is a question without a meaningful answer. It so much depends on circumstances, and terrain.

And unless its a race the answer is without meaning.

Short answer for us is faster than some, slower than others.

We'll shoot to do the state TT championship this year sub 58 minutes. Extrapolating from that, the answer would be 25-26 mph for 20 miles.

However if you look at a typical endurance miles ride, our average for a 20 mile ride might vary from 17-23 mph.

And if it was a ride on very hilly terrain, we might torch ourselves to average 14mph.

You really can't compare across different terrain, different wind conditions, and diferent motivations.

Thus if you want to know where you stack up, enter a race. If you don't care to race don't worry about it.

I agree, and don't plan to use this as a training aid. If we do race this tandem, you are correct, we'll know where we stand on that day. No races are planned, we may run a local tt just for amusement and something different. Last we need to do is start seriously racing again.

I'm trying to save my left knee, cause when the rear starts to quit and the front must pull it through, that knee starts a knockin. I can see the insurance paperwork... cause of knee injury...my wife gave up and I had to do all the work

PK

Some of you may find this funny. At the half way point in the 50 mile ride we stopped for lunch that my wife had in her backpack. Among the normal food: chicken salad sandwiches, humus & other stuff, She was packing a bottle of Champaign! Needless to say we saved that for after the ride.

We are probably a pretty typical tandem team with a fast but aging captain and a not-so-strong but willing stoker, except that our combined age is 130, so our speeds are a little slow. We can average 19-20 on rolling terrain, but this really sacrifices the stoker's enjoyment. We do a lot of 14-15 rides when we are by ourselves and tend to push more when we are with others, say 17-18. We really suck at climbing, so there are just some mountain rides that I do solo that are beyond our capability. I would love to do the Hilly Hundred in Indiana on the tandem, but after riding with a pretty strong couple (me solo) and watching them struggle, I don't think it would be enjoyable (which is really the point these days).

I tend to agree with Merlinextralight in that there is a very wide range of capabilities and comparison has little value except in a competitive environment. Not everyone is built to be a powerhouse. Now of course there can be medical issues that complicate things, but if you can get out and ride the distances you want, you're reaching your goal. If one of the team is weaker it just means you need to use lower gears...

In the high prairie north of Denver there are really no flat areas. Also, we rarely ride only 20 miles - a "standard" ride is more like 40. We almost always ride by ourselves. So, the rides range from rolling hills to canyon climbs & descents. Team age - about 103.

A descent average is about 18mph for about 40 "hilly" miles. A similar distance with more climbing is more like 16.5 mph avg.

PK,



When your wife was "poked" in your recent ride, what were the symptoms she was experiencing?



Reason I ask is I am a mild asthmatic and also suffer from hayfever. In 5 years of cycling, I have only even had a major asthma problem once (due to a very cold century ride) and am able to manage my hayfever with antihistamines most of the time (although the 12hr tabs tend to only last 6 hrs for me).



Although sustained effort (HR over 170) can make my breathing go through the roof, it never really "kills me" until my HR goes above 190. However lactic acid buildup is a killer.



Typically over 2.5 hrs, if I don't get some energy in (gels/bars etc.) I will bonk.



So from the above I tend to suffer from



1. difficulty breathing - asthma (grab the ventolin)

2. Blocked nose - Hayfever

3. Legs screaming (especially if working hard up a hill) - lactic acid

4. Cramp - not enough salt

5. "Bonking" - poor energy intake



From your description it sounds like your wife bonked, even though it was only 15 miles in to the ride. Once you hit the wall, it can take quite a bit to recover. I did a century ride once and under-estimated my nutrition requirements and bonked at 70 miles, took me nearly 10 miles later before the food and drink I ate after bonking kicked in. during that time, we struggled along at around 8-10 miles/hr



My suggestion is early in the ride to use lower gears (especially if it is hilly). Don't worry about everyone else taking off. Being a 400+ lb team, a number of rides where we have been left for dust at the start, but once we get rolling (usually after 15 miles) we start clawing our way back.



As for speed over 20 miles



Flat - 20+ mph

Rolling - 16-20 mph

hilly/climbing - 6+ mph (and yeah I hate those long gentle climbs too - have a ride where we climb 1000ft over 20 miles and can't get over 12 mph ave even though the road looks dead flat)

That is one of the things i have had to get used to riding the tandem with my wife. We are slower on hills than I am on my single. Any uphill grade can be tuff.
The fast down hills make up for it.

18-20 Flats
16-18 Rolling
8-10 longer climbs
40+ long descents

When your wife was "poked" in your recent ride, what were the symptoms she was experiencing?

Although sustained effort (HR over 170) can make my breathing go through the roof, it never really "kills me" until my HR goes above 190. However lactic acid buildup is a killer.

So from the above I tend to suffer from

1. difficulty breathing - asthma (grab the ventolin)

2. Blocked nose - Hayfever

3. Legs screaming (especially if working hard up a hill) - lactic acid

4. Cramp - not enough salt

5. "Bonking" - poor energy intake

From your description it sounds like your wife bonked, even though it was only 15 miles in to the ride. Once you hit the wall, it can take quite a bit to recover. I did a century ride once and under-estimated my nutrition requirements and bonked at 70 miles, took me nearly 10 miles later before the food and drink I ate after bonking kicked in. during that time, we struggled along at around 8-10 miles/hr

My suggestion is early in the ride to use lower gears (especially if it is hilly). Don't worry about everyone else taking off. Being a 400+ lb team, a number of rides where we have been left for dust at the start, but once we get rolling (usually after 15 miles) we start clawing our way back.



Each post is more help and it's appreciated.


It could have been lack of nutrition, but she knew the ride and ate well, plus drank a lot of water starting the day before. She also had some stuff at the first sag.

During the ride she was drinking cytomax. While not perfect for lactic acid it does help.

As for her breathing, riding the tandem it can be more obvious if she's having a difficult time. This did become a concern, I could hear it, feel it in the pedals and knew something was off. By then it was possibly to late on this ride.

Her fitness is not bad, but she has not been doing any short bursts of power or interval type training.

Starting slow and building, pretty typical for how I force her to ride, as for effort and cadence overall easy to moderate loads, except the few short climbs. I also have us deliberately start at the back, letting others have a huge lead so the dust won't be as much of a concern. The event was not a race, but just an epic type ride event.

Based on the replies, that gave an idea of speed on flats while riding and not racing, we fell right into the mix, which is good. In other words, when we keep her from going to high on heart rate, we tend to be similar to others.

As much as I wanted to avoid going back to heart rate monitors, I'm pretty convinced to have her ride with a monitor while I watch and listen. This will let me have an idea of what's going on.

Piecing it together, I suspect several things. Fitness, dusty ride, and her having a goal and wanting it too much to know her real limit. Allergies and or asthma, plus a touch of lactic acid can all be related and no doubt contributed. I also blame myself for not getting us out for more intense training plus listening to her as we rode telling me she was fine, when I should have heard her enthusiasm and kept on with a slow and steady type attitude.

I wouldn't trade her for the world, I hope it's something you folks never have to contend with.

Thanks for all the help, believe it or not, it did help me see a bigger picture and now have a plan.

PK

Being in our mid-70s (76/74) we have slowed w-a-y down.
Whereby we've sustained 21.5 mph average in hilly/rolling terrain for 2 hours, we were only in our late 50s then. We've climbed moutains (9,000+ ft) at 4 mph and descend many times at 50+ mph. But them days 'used to be!'
Kay has 75% lung capacity and we both are cancer survivors and have some other minor issues; we are not only grand parents, but great grandparents . . . Yipes, we can't be that old!
We no longer ride 200 miles a week as we did for decades but have cut down to around 100 weekly and at a much slower pace . . . around 12 mph.
Growin' old is not for sissies!
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

This is funny.

It varies so much with terrain, wind, etc, etc...

This is funny.

What's funny is how the concept of averges seems to escape some of you folks... particulary given how much time y'all spend collecting and anaylzing everything from lactate threshold to watts and VO2max.

Yet, when it comes to something as simple as "what the heck does that stupid little computer show for average speed" at the end of a ride it's just too complex to analyze. Good grief, give me a friggin' break.

I'd wager each and every one of you who seem predisposed to play the "it's just too complex" card know exactly what your average speed range is (+/- .5 mph) are on your local ride loops and use that, first and foremost, as a baseline to gauge how your performance is day-to-day and on other rides. It's the baseline that allows you to confirm, "we sucked today" or to occassionally be surprised when your performance appears to be better than how it felt during the ride.

Does the weather affect performance? Sure it does, as does traffic, how you feel and about 100 other things. Yet, it's not all that hard for most folks who ride bikes to know just how much time to allow when heading off for a ride of X miles by simply dividing what you believe your average speed is under the expected terrain and conditions by the miles you plan to ride. If that wasn't the case, who would ever know if they could ride a 4-hour century? Oh yeah, that's right... too hard to predict since you won't know how fast the other riders you'll be drafting will go. Yeah, right... sucking wheel or pulling the racer boys is often times even easier to predict than simply going it alone.

But, as Dennis Miller has often times said, "I could be wrong". I don't think I am, but then again I really don't care. It's my opinion based on my experience and observations as purely a recreational cyclist these days.

I'd wager each and every one of you who seem predisposed to play the "it's just too complex" card know exactly what your average speed range is (+/- .5 mph) are on your local ride loops and use that, first and foremost, as a baseline to gauge how your performance is day-to-day and on other rides. It's the baseline that allows you to confirm, "we sucked today" or to occassionally be surprised when your performance appears to be better than how it felt during the ride.





Nope. Foremost baseline is power. Which power metric depends on the workout for the day. Hard group ride or race, I'm going to be looking at normalized power. Sprint workout, max 5 second power, Steady state workout, max 20 minute power, etc.

Once you start training with power, you start thinking watts and time, not miles and speed.

Admittedly, on the tandem I can't measure power, but I've really quit worry about average speed.


Using average speed over a given course as a measure for your own performance would only be a useful metric if you road the course as a time trial.

And even if average speed was a useful metric to compare yourselves against past performance, it still not possible to draw a meaningful comparison to others on different terrain,different weather conditions etc.

I just hope I (we) have the energy & mental desire to hop on the tandem when we reach our 70's. Rudy and Kay (zonatandem) are true heros in my mind! They should be an inspiration to all of us youngsters! It's not a matter of how fast you go on any given day, It's a matter of enjoying the ride at a pace that lasts for a lifetime.
I met a guy at last years Tour de Georgia that was in his 70's. He traveled from one of the northern states just to see the race & ride some of the stages. He said that he started riding in his 50's after his son challenged him to do a ride. Anyway, I love running into people like this.

Folks I didn't ask on the basis of wanting to beat other teams or wave a banner.

Our team has a problem,laugh away...it's me, seriously I want us to overcome or deal with it in the best means possible.

Seeing that many tandems on a non training, flat terrain ride average about 18-20, that lets me know we aren't crawling and struggleing, we aren't flying either, nor am I asking my partner for to much effort.

If I can work with her, and I plan to, hopefully her allergies and asthma will lessen and her fitness will come back. Prior to all this mid life allergy / asthma stuff, she was a very good MTB rider. She enjoyed technical terrain and would often leave in her wake groups of guys. The other day she could barely walk a couple of those small climbs without getting winded. Something is not right.

As I said, my goal is to help not hurt my stoker. If you have a strong team with no issues, I hope you retain and stay that way forever.

For us, it's another bump in the road. I have a plan, I hope it works, she is willing to work towards some goals. We'll track some performance criteria. And let's hope she does get healthy and competitive, because I don't like her feeling down about her riding, be it on a single or the tandem.

It's all about fun and enjoyment, and recreation or racing can provide it.
All the replies have been a great help.

Have fun
PK

Have never done a century in 4 hours . . . but several sub-5 hour.
Most of us know how long we take on given local rides. May be a bit faster with a group than just the 2-of-us.
Some of us cope with health/age related issues . . . but we are out there having fun and excercising TWOgether!
Pedal on!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

What's funny is how the concept of averges seems to escape some of you folks... particulary given how much time y'all spend collecting and anaylzing everything from lactate threshold to watts and VO2max.

Yet, when it comes to something as simple as "what the heck does that stupid little computer show for average speed" at the end of a ride it's just too complex to analyze. Good grief, give me a friggin' break.

I'd wager each and every one of you who seem predisposed to play the "it's just too complex" card know exactly what your average speed range is (+/- .5 mph) are on your local ride loops and use that, first and foremost, as a baseline to gauge how your performance is day-to-day and on other rides. It's the baseline that allows you to confirm, "we sucked today" or to occassionally be surprised when your performance appears to be better than how it felt during the ride.

Does the weather affect performance? Sure it does, as does traffic, how you feel and about 100 other things. Yet, it's not all that hard for most folks who ride bikes to know just how much time to allow when heading off for a ride of X miles by simply dividing what you believe your average speed is under the expected terrain and conditions by the miles you plan to ride. If that wasn't the case, who would ever know if they could ride a 4-hour century? Oh yeah, that's right... too hard to predict since you won't know how fast the other riders you'll be drafting will go. Yeah, right... sucking wheel or pulling the racer boys is often times even easier to predict than simply going it alone.

But, as Dennis Miller has often times said, "I could be wrong". I don't think I am, but then again I really don't care. It's my opinion based on my experience and observations as purely a recreational cyclist these days.

I would say that you are right in a way. We do know our apx. average speed for a given loop if we do it frequently.

For example our night rides. The latest revision is pretty gnarly, nearly 3700 ft of ascent in a 25 mile loop. However, it's not just one long gentle climb, it's a series of climbs with pitches up to 20%. It's night time so we take it relatively easy on the descents, and end up averaging around 13 mph.

He is an example of one of the climbs (they are are relatively short, but brutal steep, and long enough to hurt you). Then as soon as you descend, you hit the next one... kind of like forced intervals ;)




For a flatter example, we can usually average around 20 mph on the route from our place to Woodside via Cañada Rd. Which is 15 miles with 1500 feet of ascent (rolling).

Fastest century I think we have ever done was the Lighthouse Century (hilly version). Something like 5 hours and 30 min (18-19 mph).

We tend to stick to hills, thus pretty low average speeds.

Thanks TG, this gives me a good basis to see where we fall and help me work with the wife on issues of her allergies and asthma, or fitness.

Our flats are pretty steady 19 - 20
Rolling terrain is tough as it's really flat where we live.
Hills, this will give her issues, as big efforts lately have been tough for her breathing
Mountains are why I asked, if we need to do Tahoe in June, I need to keep her upbeat while getting some more high aerobic and anaerobic efforts under her belt.

I'm starting to doubt myself about our decisions for her allergies and asthma vs loss of fitness.

We did an event on Valentines day, 35 or 50 miles off road, our choice. We took the mountain tandem. All was real good, smooth and acceptably quick until several miles after the first sag about 16 miles in, then as if a switch were flipped, she was done and nothing (resting or allergy stuff including a puffer) could get our pace or her energy back. Maybe the dust, or possibly to much road and not enough off road. We did finish the 35 but it was crawling out the last 15 miles. Basically survival mode to finish. Thing is this should have been a fairly easy ride with 50 a definite possibility. She told me she was up for it and felt good when we started. I don't demand much so our pace was good. Oh well.

Any thoughts or suggestions I'm open.

Thanks Folks.

PK

Both my wife and I have raced near Tahoe at 5000 feet in 40K TTs and the Masters District Championship Road race.

You may want to rethink the Tahoe trip for your stoker if she has asthma. Altitude and colder air are harder on your lungs. And while we were there for the road race, there were fires. There was a lot of smoke (haze plus light smokey smell) which exacerbated the breathing problem. We coughed for 2 days after the road race. Good luck with your cycling.

"You may want to rethink the Tahoe trip for your stoker if she has asthma"

I disagree, I have asthma although I think to a lesser extent and have ridden around Lake Tahoe several times and done the Death Ride 8 times. Asthma has never been an issue, I have always gone up the night before as opposed to going up a few days early to get used to the elevation.

USPS what hardware and software are you using to put your information together? I just got a 705 last weekend and hope to get it figured out during the next couple of weeks while on vacation. (BTW I bought the 705 for the vacation as opposed to I am taking a vacation so that I have time to figure out the 705)

I have 2 speeds, not fast enough or not slow enough. I hope to gain the wisdom to realize what speed I am at and adjust accordingly

^ That looks like Mapmyfitness

There are a number of software sources that you can use with your Garmin. Motionbased.com, SportTracks (http://www.zonefivesoftware.com/SportTracks/Downloads/) Garmin Connect.

Mapmyride.com , Bikeroutetoaster.com Trainingpeaks WKO.

Lots of options depending on what you want to do with the 705.

That looks like Mapmyfitness

There are a number of software sources that you can use with your Garmin. Motionbased.com, SportTracks (http://www.zonefivesoftware.com/SportTracks/Downloads/) Garmin Connect.

Mapmyride.com , Bikeroutetoaster.com Trainingpeaks WKO.

Lots of options depending on what you want to do with the 705.[/QUOTE]

Wow, I think this may warrant a seperate thread!

You show me yours and I'll show you mine. :thumb: Our usual road loops around here have about 60' climbing/mile. 6% is about it for long climbs. We average about 14. If we stick to flatter terrain, maybe 30' per mile, we'll do 16. We run 18-20 on the flat. Stoker is a bit poor in the lung department, partially asthma and partially being run over by a 1-ton truck while biking. I'm no champ, either. She's 60, I'm 63. Nice Co-Mo though! We're going to make an effort to get some good miles in this year, but I doubt our speed will go up much. But that's OK. We are fast enough to have fun playing with other adults. :D

If it matters to any of you, bit by bit progress occurs.

To date we've done this.
Had the allergy Doc, who's also a friend check her pulse O2, heart rate and tested her breathing function with a machine you blow into.

Also, there was a very local time trial. I had her ride with a monitor and the closed course let me listen for shortness of breath while I steadily increased her heart rate by riding faster.

The Doc also mentioned to avoid cold air and wind. He knows this is not practical on the bike and during early rides, so we opted another option. Some of her rides, when needed, she is now using a sports headband as a mask to minimize cold air and wind concerns.

All of these proved to be a great set of results. We found what is a max heart rate she can safely sustain without breathing concerns. Also the Docs test indicated her O2 is very good and fitness is good also. Warm fresh air without forced induction is important.

The problem is leaning towards a tightness in small airways after some but not all rides. Allergies are the big thing. Recently she has been tested to see what she is allergic to. Obviously it's many plants and grasses.

During a recent ride on a familiar new and unopened road, we were working to get some miles in and also utilize the information I mentioned earlier.

As we approached a stretch of road that had a large group of Palmetto and Melalucca trees, I could smell the trees. Within a minute, she had breathing issues. We slowed and got past the trees. Being aware, she quickly recovered. Unfortunately, we had to make a U turn and pass by them again, this time at much reduced effort. While it bothered her, she again quickly recovered and we got back up to speed.

The allergy thing in regards to shots is something we are deciding on. The Doc is coming up with a plan based on how he administered these treatments to soldiers. He bases this on her being more active then many others her age with similar concerns.

As for the issues from previous rides I mentioned in this post, much of it finally makes sense. My guess is the slightly over an hour limit she had was an allergy to a different plant.

Her endurance and fitness is quickly returning. The distance rides are no problem (except for her being seated so long) and we did some mild intervals of climbing which she was fine on.

So Again...Thanks everyone, and if these are problems for others, I hope our situation can offer assistance for you.

PK

Here are the downloads from my Garmin 705 so far for 2009. Some days we go faster or slower than others depending on how we feel, or the group we're with, or where we're riding. It's all fun.

An update from this weekend. On my earlier post I was guessing. This is from our GPS:

Distance = 46 miles. 1580' elevation gain total (0' gain net - loop ride). 18.7 mph avg. Riding by ourselves.

Here's the guess part: I think that if I did this ride on my single, my average would be about 17 mph.

Rolling course aprox 18mph - haven't found a flat 20 miles near here yet. We actually drove to Soledad earlier this week to see what we could avg on a flat 50 mile course... over aprox 50 miles with only 710' total elevation gain we avg'd 16 - BUT it was windy as heck in that valley on the way north to Salinas, and the way back on River Road had all the climbing, so... 16 felt like 20 to me! We are "training" for our first century in Chico, one month away now, and I'm curious what our avg will be. I'd be very happy with 15-16 on the Chico Wildflower. Probably more like 10-12 with the hills.

Hi,

I am late to this post and will give some input, as it may be helpful.
Average speed for our 30 mile loop is 17-18. Some stop signs and usually windy. SW Idaho.
As a team we can be fast at times and have ridden Cycle Oregon 4 times on the tandem or 5?
We climb steep hills pretty slow, like most tandems.

I do the race trash thing, road, TT, and some MTB. I am not the dude!
My wife does not race. Just rides for fitness.

We are not super fast but usually hang with the top half of the charity ride crowd for a while then drop off for fun and sanity.

Oh yeah- the reason for my reply-

I kicked ass on the allergy test and will put my allergy numbers up against any pro.

I do the immuno therapy shots and still take some zyrtec and nose spray.
The shots have helped a lot.

I can not tell from your description if the issue was allergies or fitness or both.
I have had MTB races with lots of dust where I wilted and wheezed and rode slower than my fitness level.

I have noticed allergies get worse from training fatigue, and getting dehydrated.
Also different times of year are real bad.

I can tell you (not sure if you mentioned where you live) if you go to a different part of the country (Tahoe) your wife may feel better than ever, except the altitude.

It usually takes a while for allergies to build up and somewhere "new" gives a honeymoon period.
For me the Oregon coast is a great allergy break.

If you have allergy questions, you can ask away or e-mail me.

Rob

Rob thanks for the reply. Overall we are doing much better. She has not started shots yet but it appears she will.

I am now very much aware of and always asking about her heart rate in more strenuous sections and faster speeds. I also listen for her breathing to become wrong. Also, one big help has been her using a sports headband to not only filter a bit but keep the wind from inducing her asthma.

The next two big items and will possibly be the best we can do. Shots and I need to find some brand of heart rate monitor that will read her rate while displayed on the forward handlebars. This will let me see a problem hopefully before it arises.

While we both love riding the mountain tandem, the allergy issues have us consider the day and conditions before we decide which bike to ride.

We have moved forward a lot in a couple of months, compromises are being made, but that's ok as things could always be much worse.

As a side note, on a recent Team in Training ride, another woman began to quickly fall off pace then stop. The group stopped and someone mentioned she had a flat. We turned around to help and stay together. Oddly it was familiar site for me. I didn't know but she too has asthma. Others stood around not sure about what was going on or what to do. In the end it all worked out, but was an eye opener for my wife to see what happens to her, but usually we are alone and 10 miles from the truck in the middle of the woods. Made her understand the importance of being honest and realistic in her ability and fitness. The Team coach was a bit freaked out also.

Thanks
PK

Yesterday's 18-20 mph "C" group training ride was a little unusual. We're the the only tandem in a group of 30-35 single bikes. This week started pretty normal; 16 then 18 then 20 mph to warm up, mostly in cross-winds for the first 10 miles. Then with the help of tailwinds and an extra dose of unidentified kick-***** it went to 23, 25, 28 & peak of 30.7 for the sprint before the rest stop at 17.5 miles.

On the second half, we held on in the cross winds, but got dropped for a while when we couldn't close a yo-yo gap in the strong headwinds that had developed in the later AM. We held a steady chase and, with the help of strategic red-light timing, pulled a couple of others who had gotten dropped, back to the group with us before the end. Average speed was 18.7, okay since we've done this route at up to 19.7 average mph before. Average heart rate was much more indicative of the effort; 154 BPM average equals about 92% effort for 2 hours and 6 minutes based on my 220-your age rule of thumb.

We are new to riding tandem. Just purchased a Co-Motion Periscope in December of 08. However we have done quite a few miles already on our new bike and most times we are out we average around 15 miles/hour and that is without really pushing or working hard at it. That is on mostly flat terrain. Today we road in winds of 28 miles per hour and gusts of up to 40 miles per hour. We rode 30 miles and our average was 12.6 miles per hour. We were passed by several other cyclists and saw another 10 tandem teams out as well - but I think they were all going faster.

We are new to riding tandem. Just purchased a Co-Motion Periscope in December of 08. However we have done quite a few miles already on our new bike and most times we are out we average around 15 miles/hour and that is without really pushing or working hard at it. That is on mostly flat terrain. Today we road in winds of 28 miles per hour and gusts of up to 40 miles per hour. We rode 30 miles and our average was 12.6 miles per hour. We were passed by several other cyclists and saw another 10 tandem teams out as well - but I think they were all going faster.

Don't become to focused on the speed numbers. My original reason for the topic was not to make us work more or less hard to achieve anothers speed. It was rather to get an idea of what others normally see on a ride. If you read the entire topic, you see the concern is so I don't expect to much nor to little from my stoker with her sometimes limited performance output.

You can see some of these folks ride to enjoy the ride, others compete for the enjoyment of competition. Regardless of your goals, have fun and live to ride another day, and see to it the same is true for the stoker.

When you can visit a site and see so many longtime tandem riders, many over ten years and some much longer than that, it becomes obvious that a great deal of enjoyment can be had riding the tandem.

Enjoy that new tandem.

PK

Being in our mid-70s (76/74) we have slowed w-a-y down.
Whereby we've sustained 21.5 mph average in hilly/rolling terrain for 2 hours, we were only in our late 50s then. We've climbed moutains (9,000+ ft) at 4 mph and descend many times at 50+ mph. But them days 'used to be!'
Kay has 75% lung capacity and we both are cancer survivors and have some other minor issues; we are not only grand parents, but great grandparents . . . Yipes, we can't be that old!
We no longer ride 200 miles a week as we did for decades but have cut down to around 100 weekly and at a much slower pace . . . around 12 mph.
Growin' old is not for sissies!
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

Every time I read this I smile ear to ear seeing you still enjoy life and riding.

PK

As a lifelong asthma sufferer, thankfully almost free of it here in FL, I strongly suggest you have your wife checked out by a pulmonologist. The strain you feel with asthma when climbing hills is difficult to describe, but may be life-threatening. The doctor may be able to prescribe something, other than the "puffer," as a preventative.

Guys I didn't ask based on wanting to go faster or race. I have many parallels to Tandem geek about my motorcycle and bicycle adventures of the past. For me now it's rides about my wife and I enjoying time together, whether on what is now the preferred method of tandeming or single bikes.

I asked to get an idea of some sort, and I realize the multitude of variables.
These few posts have been a huge help.

Something is not quite right and I'm kind of asking not only for ideas but also based on the fact that we have never yet ridden with other tandems, so gauging performance is tough.

In the end I appreciate all replies. It's good to have others ideas and opinions, it can make you think about other things.

PK


My wife and I bought our 1st tandem last Sept. living in NH the season is some what short so we enjoy every ride. What I did notice is that we travel faster than singles whether flats or especially up hills. We have gone as fast as 43 mph dwnhll but it is the ride that is most fun. We pick a distance and look for hills. Our 1st ride of the season last Sunday was 33 miles with 11 hills. Took under 2.5 hrs to complete. I have been working out hard all week and did a ride on my single this evening 25.5 miles in about 1hr 24 min with about 6 hills. Point being, with the wife I am much faster and it is much more enjoyable....

Ride ON!!!!!