Living Car Free - Creating Your Own Power

Suppose you lived in an area that was not serviced by the usual power system (power lines, etc.) ... what are some options you would look at for creating power?

Solar panels might be one idea. A bicycle generator system might be another idea. What else?


Have any of you used these alternate systems to create power?

I have used solar panels on a small scale, they are effective depending on your locale - the availability of amorphous panels has improved this situation, as they can work better in cloudy areas.

Bicycle generators are fun, and interesting for little bike music festivals and such, but using one for power generation on a daily basis would be quite poor, I would find. Solar simply needs to be installed and it gives, a bicycle generator constantly needs input. I guess if you were only using a very tiny amount of power and were one of those types that loved to ride the trainer every day it could be spiffy beans - but you could be riding outside instead, while your other power generation device was taking care of the home front.

I stayed with a fellow who was running his entire property (a house, and a large workshop) on wind and solar. He enjoyed building his wind system, but it caused him lots of legal troubles and wasn't worth the effort in the end, I think he found.

My parents' new house is build to be relatively efficient at trapping heat, and is partially run on solar power. They seem quite pleased with it, as they live in a very cloudy area, but the solar panels still cut the electricity bill by a large amount. The appliances they have are fairly efficient as well, which doesn't hurt.

Wind power would not be appropriate at this site, as it is on a creek bed... no slope winds at all. On a clearcut hillside, you do get rather more wind, but hillsides in that area don't *stay* clear cut. And since it is so very hilly, there isn't much wind otherwise.

A dynohub can charge 4 AA batteries in a metric century. A portable solar battery charger can charge 4 AA batteries in a day.

So with a portable battery charging system your electricity budget is only about 4 AA batteries per day.

Obviously, you'd want to use your small amount of electricity for valuable things that only electricity can do: ipods, gps, cell phone, radio, very low power computer, etc.

For things that require heat, use solar heat as directly as possible. Propane and kerosene may also be good options. Grinders, mills, sewing machines, tools, etc should be fully mechanical.

The next step up from little portable battery chargers would be a fixed solar panel that can run a small refrigerator and lighting system.

Suppose you lived in an area that was not serviced by the usual power system (power lines, etc.) ... what are some options you would look at for creating power?

Solar panels might be one idea. A bicycle generator system might be another idea. What else?

Have any of you used these alternate systems to create power?
I haven't done it yet. May try some kind of solar setup when I relocate to the desert-southwest.

Forget the bicycle-thing, it's unrealistic. Solar or windmills are pretty much it.

You could also just live straight off an internal-combustion generator. That's noisy and involves burning fuel and exhaust--but if you don't need it most of the time, the cost savings over a solar or wind setup can still be fairly large, and you always have full power whenever you need it.

For $800 you can buy a fairly-decent brand of generator that puts out 5000 watts, and that you can plug 120 or 240-V appliances right into. Meanwhile, a single 200-watt solar panel will cost you ~$800 alone. $800 will get you a cheaper-brand of 400-watt windmill, but no tower to put it on. And both the solar panel and the windmill would still need a charger/battery bank/inverter setup to be of any use at all.
~

Solar panels on the roof, a wind turbine generator, solar collector and stirling engine, and bicycle generator.

The main source would probably be the solar panes and the solar collector combined with a stirling engine....The US military uses small stirling engines mounted at the end of solar collectors and they are good for multiple KW production. A wind turbine might come in handy on stormy/cloudy days where the sun light is just not strong enough to power the stirling engine or the solar cells. And the bicycle generator would really just be for fun....might could add another 200-250 watt for 1 to 1 1/2 hours on really cold days...so look for 300-400 watt hrs from it.

Lots of options depending on the locale and available natural resources.

I have been doing this exercise based on where I currently live; Solar panels, earth sheltered (cooling is more of an issue than heating around here) low voltage lighting (CFL's, LED's etc) and very energy efficient appliances. If you are willing to deal with kerosene and/or bottled gas it can be used for heating, cooking and refrigeration.

Wind power is not as good a choice for me as the solar. Also look into hydro depending on the location. I know people that power a decent sized homestead via an old mill dam with a small hydro unit installed in the old mill race. We have a two branches (small creeks) on our property, one has the potential to generate enough power to keep a small energy efficient home taken care of in all except extreme drought conditions, however we will have to build a dam to utilize it.

Aaron:)

Ya'll might enjoy This site of eco friendly homes (http://www.undercurrents.org/visionon/livinginthefuture.htm)--underground homes, yurts, subsistence homes, etc.

I haven't done it yet. May try some kind of solar setup when I relocate to the desert-southwest.

Forget the bicycle-thing, it's unrealistic. Solar or windmills are pretty much it.

You could also just live straight off an internal-combustion generator. That's noisy and involves burning fuel and exhaust--but if you don't need it most of the time, the cost savings over a solar or wind setup can still be fairly large, and you always have full power whenever you need it.

For $800 you can buy a fairly-decent brand of generator that puts out 5000 watts, and that you can plug 120 or 240-V appliances right into. Meanwhile, a single 200-watt solar panel will cost you ~$800 alone. $800 will get you a cheaper-brand of 400-watt windmill, but no tower to put it on. And both the solar panel and the windmill would still need a charger/battery bank/inverter setup to be of any use at all.
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$800 generator is going to be a marginal POS and I wouldn't want to depend on it, then you have the issues of making sure it is fueled and maintained ($$$). FWIW the company I work for has several generators we use in the field. They range from 5000 watt gas powered up to a couple of 17kw 3ph 480v diesel powered. They are maintenance intensive, typical use load is around 1500-2000 hours a year. The big diesels have to have the oil changed every 80-100 hours of operation and they aren't cheap to purchase. The smallest generators we buy are the Honda 5,000 watt and they are over $2,000. But we have learned that is what works and works dependably.

The savings may be immediate but a decent solar panel or wind generator should last for many years a good quality ICE generator isn't going to last as long under heavy use. FWIW I have a 18kw LP fired generator at home for backup power. It is a $7,000+ unit with all of the code required transfer switches and installation. I didn't pay anywhere close to that for mine (bought it at a bankruptcy sale:p)

Anything off the grid is going to require compromise and if you try to maintain a lifestyle similar to what is lived on the grid, it is going to cost you much more than the current cheap electricity provided by a local supplier.

Aaron:)

Anything off the grid is going to require compromise and if you try to maintain a lifestyle similar to what is lived on the grid, it is going to cost you much more than the current cheap electricity provided by a local supplier.

Aaron:)

I've been trying to think what a person would need/want power for.

For me, I'd want to be able to operate a computer (laptop), a radio, a CD player (or similar music making machine ... MP3?), and maybe a small portable TV to watch the occasional show. Some sort of refrigeration system would also be good, and I would like a microwave but could probably live without it. And I suppose some way to recharge batteries for a light or two and a couple cameras. What else would there be?

I've been trying to think what a person would need/want power for.

For me, I'd want to be able to operate a computer (laptop), a radio, a CD player (or similar music making machine ... MP3?), and maybe a small portable TV to watch the occasional show. Some sort of refrigeration system would also be good, and I would like a microwave but could probably live without it. And I suppose some way to recharge batteries for a light or two and a couple cameras. What else would there be?

Supplemental heat both for living space and H2O
Cooling
Pumping water
The occasional power tool/vacuum cleaner--shop vac
Oven/stove unless that is gas or wood

Supplemental heat both for living space and H2O
Cooling
Pumping water
The occasional power tool/vacuum cleaner--shop vac
Oven/stove unless that is gas or wood

We won't likely need heating or cooling ... Rowan hasn't had either since 2004.
We have no need for power tools.
Rowan has his Trangia to cook with.

And as for the shower situation, Rowan already has a solar shower but something slightly more sophisticated might be nice.

We won't likely need heating or cooling ... Rowan hasn't had either since 2004.
We have no need for power tools.
Rowan has his Trangia to cook with.

And as for the shower situation, Rowan already has a solar shower but something slightly more sophisticated might be nice.

Trangia is a good backpacking stove. You'll probably want a little more for frequent, real meal cooking. You could look at a marine alcohol stove with multiple burners....or get a couple Trangias. Eating one pot meals all the time gets old quick.
Also, if this is for a cabin or real living quarters, hot water is invaluable....You can install a solar hot water heater for a few grand. Again, you will be dependent on solar heating, which can be limited from time to time. But the newer models do provide hot water and reasonable quantities of such.

What about washing clothes and such? Do you plan on hand washing everything?

Trangia is a good backpacking stove. You'll probably want a little more for frequent, real meal cooking. You could look at a marine alcohol stove with multiple burners....or get a couple Trangias. Eating one pot meals all the time gets old quick.
Also, if this is for a cabin or real living quarters, hot water is invaluable....You can install a solar hot water heater for a few grand. Again, you will be dependent on solar heating, which can be limited from time to time. But the newer models do provide hot water and reasonable quantities of such.

What about washing clothes and such? Do you plan on hand washing everything?

I believe Rowan still has both his Trangias ... I'm not sure what all he managed to save from the bushfire. But he has spent a year or more cooking with his Trangias so that's not a problem.

And there are always laundromats around, otherwise handwashing works.

If it were for a cabin or real living quarters, a more permanent solar hot water heater would be a good idea ... and some here might want to look into that if they are considering a move to other power sources. Perhaps at some point down the road we might look into that too. But in this case, we have no cabin or real living quarters.

I believe Rowan still has both his Trangias ... I'm not sure what all he managed to save from the bushfire. But he has spent a year or more cooking with his Trangias so that's not a problem.

And there are always laundromats around, otherwise handwashing works.

If it were for a cabin or real living quarters, a more permanent solar hot water heater would be a good idea ... and some here might want to look into that if they are considering a move to other power sources. Perhaps at some point down the road we might look into that too. But in this case, we have no cabin or real living quarters.

His place was hit by the fires?! :eek:

The exact climate in that location is a key factor.
If you don't need home heating or cooling that would be pretty good. In that case a refrigerator will probably need the most power. A hot water shower can be built to work extremely well in a sunny place. The amount of sunlight in a year is a big factor. I agree that solar or wind will cost a lot more than buying electricity. One example is a friend who is almost off the grid here in New England. The pay back for the solar is about 50 years.

Is there a place to build a water wheel?

His place was hit by the fires?! :eek:

Yes ... you've heard about the Australian (Victoria) bushfires which have burned 450,000 hectares, killed 189 people (at latest count), destroyed nearly 2000 homes, left somewhere around 7000 people homeless, and have wiped out an estimate of a million animals .... his was one of those 2000 homes. He narrowly escaped with his life and a few of his possessions.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=509341

He has moved out of the evac center now onto the orchard where he works (which was also partially burnt) ... but there is no power out there. So he is considering various options for now.

But we'd also like to live "off the grid" as much as possible once I get there too ... wherever we end up living. So we're also looking for longer-term options.



The exact climate in that location is a key factor.
If you don't need home heating or cooling that would be pretty good. In that case a refrigerator will probably need the most power. A hot water shower can be built to work extremely well in a sunny place. The amount of sunlight in a year is a big factor. I agree that solar or wind will cost a lot more than buying electricity. One example is a friend who is almost off the grid here in New England. The pay back for the solar is about 50 years.

Is there a place to build a water wheel?

Yes, I agree that location would make a huge difference. You couldn't get away without some sort of heat source in this part of Canada for several months of the year. Australia, however, doesn't get all that cold. It does get chilly, and there is snow in the mountains, but not like -30C or anything.


I'm not sure about a water wheel. When I think of them, I think of the huge things the prairie pioneers used to grind grain into flour, but perhaps there is a smaller version out there.


I'm still intrigued by the bicycle option. Let's say both of us rode our trainers for an hour each night ... could we power a computer?

I think for a laptop you would be best served using a small solar panel for recharging. Some of the newer solid state laptops will run 4-7 hours on a full charge up. For lighting you can do the same with the rechargeable LED lanterns or go with something like Aladdin Lamps (http://www.aladdinlamps.com/store/dynamicIndex.asp) (get the aluminum ones with the paper shades (http://www.aladdinlamps.com/lamps/viewItem2.asp?idProduct=269)) refrigeration can be provided by a gas or kerosene power. Depending on the capacity you need, one of the smaller portable 3way units (http://www.lehmans.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=4453&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=1254&iSubCat=1285&iProductID=4453) might suit. (this one is for the US market, but I suspect they also make them for the AU market too. FWIW I own both of the products I have listed above and can highly recommend them.

We used to spend summers at a friend's "camp" in rural Maine when I was younger. The cabin had a gas stove and gas fridge, they were fueled by 100# bottles of LP that were trucked in from town. Lighting was provided by Aladdin lamps, gas mantle lanterns and kerosene lanterns, and we all had flashlights available. Water was pumped in from a cistern or well (don't recall) but there was a hand pump in the kitchen that came up through the counter top. For heat, when needed, there were a couple of wood stoves and a fireplace. Entertainment was self provided, but there were games, books, a huge collection of old National Geographic magazines, a battery powered radio, and a hand cranked Victrola:D Bathroom was a genuine outhouse.

I lived for a period of time in a pickup camper (http://www.w-t-p.com/2004/C09-5005.jpg) off grid. Heat, lights and refrigeration were provided by LP gas, I did have a couple of batteries that I took to work and recharged to use for backup lighting and the on board water pump. Hot water was also LP fired. The water tank was filled from a hand pumped well near the truck. I had a chemical toilet that got dumped in a septic system up the road.

You have done plenty of camping when you tour, just expand on it.:thumb:

Another thought just came to mind. Look for a small self contained travel trailer (caravan?) if it is an older one and set up correctly it will provide just about everything you need in a nice self contained package. I have a couple of old Airstreams (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/1293419823066886751zTmWmU?vhost=home-and-garden) that I have used for just that purpose over the years. Mine are on the larger side, but are fully self contained and with a bit of prior planning I can spend quite a bit of time off the grid.

Aaron:)

But we'd also like to live "off the grid" as much as possible once I get there too ... wherever we end up living. So we're also looking for longer-term options.


Have you considered not having items that required a "grid"? Check this out if you absolutely need power:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=bicycle+powered+generator&aq=5&oq=bicycle+po

Have you considered not having items that required a "grid"?

Yes, of course. Like using Rowan's Trangia instead of a "real" stove/oven, like using his solar shower instead of having a "real" shower ....

But we do still like listening to music, and would like to have computer access so I can stay in touch with my family ... although Rowan's pocketmail works quite well for that ... and it would be handy to have a way to keep food cool so it doesn't go bad.

Another thought just came to mind. Look for a small self contained travel trailer (caravan?) if it is an older one and set up correctly it will provide just about everything you need in a nice self contained package. I have a couple of old Airstreams (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/1293419823066886751zTmWmU?vhost=home-and-garden) that I have used for just that purpose over the years. Mine are on the larger side, but are fully self contained and with a bit of prior planning I can spend quite a bit of time off the grid.

Aaron:)

Yes, we will very likely look for a caravan to live in. There aren't many options in the way of housing now, but we were thinking of going the caravan route anyway. It would be interesting to see if solar panels can be installed on/near (I'm not quite sure how they work) a caravan.

Yes, we will very likely look for a caravan to live in. There aren't many options in the way of housing now, but we were thinking of going the caravan route anyway. It would be interesting to see if solar panels can be installed on/near (I'm not quite sure how they work) a caravan.

They can be installed in various manners. I have some installed on the top of my later model Airstream (1981 model:lol:vs my 1975) They can't quite keep up in the winter time when I have to run the furnace. I am considering getting a ground mount array and running a cord to the Airstream to use them as supplemental power. FWIW I also have a couple of the small Honda generators (http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/modeldetail.aspx?page=modeldetail&section=P2GG&modelname=EU2000i&modelid=EU2000IAN) that can be hooked up in parallel to power the AC on the trailer, or can be run as a single to charge the batteries and provide power for a bit. If you can get a decent sized solar panel array to keep the battery charged up you may not need the generator. With Rowan's apparent ability to fix things a used caravan would be the quick and dirty way to go. It would give you instant shelter that can be moved fairly easily if required. FWIW in my part of the country I try to park in the shade...which negates the solar panels, that is where a generator comes in handy. I can run it for about 2 hours every other day and more than stay ahead of the battery discharge rate. I also have an on board gas lamp, but prefer to use it only in cooler weather. I suspect that if I got better and more batteries I could make them last longer between recharging. There are unlimited options out there, you just have to make your choices based on what is available, what will work best for you and the costs involved. Good luck with your choices and keep in touch and let us know how things are going.

EDIT: For music the Ipod with a plug in speaker system is hard to beat. I use a generic MP3 player with some old walkman speakers and occasionally play a CD on the laptop. But have found it is better to use the MP3 player, easier on batteries.

Aaron:)

Yes ... you've heard about the Australian (Victoria) bushfires which have burned 450,000 hectares, killed 189 people (at latest count), destroyed nearly 2000 homes, left somewhere around 7000 people homeless, and have wiped out an estimate of a million animals .... his was one of those 2000 homes. He narrowly escaped with his life and a few of his possessions.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=509341

He has moved out of the evac center now onto the orchard where he works (which was also partially burnt) ... but there is no power out there. So he is considering various options for now.

But we'd also like to live "off the grid" as much as possible once I get there too ... wherever we end up living. So we're also looking for longer-term options.

Yes, I agree that location would make a huge difference. You couldn't get away without some sort of heat source in this part of Canada for several months of the year. Australia, however, doesn't get all that cold. It does get chilly, and there is snow in the mountains, but not like -30C or anything.


I'm not sure about a water wheel. When I think of them, I think of the huge things the prairie pioneers used to grind grain into flour, but perhaps there is a smaller version out there.


I'm still intrigued by the bicycle option. Let's say both of us rode our trainers for an hour each night ... could we power a computer?

OMG !! I'm not sure what is worse, being there, or not being there and worrying about Rowan. Good luck to both of you. !!!! I hope Rowan is OK. I can't imagine what that would be like.

The bikes for a couple of hours a night is not enough. There are a few problems. One problem is that you need a battery so that if you stop pedaling the power does not go off instantly. So you need a charged battery anyway. Using even four bottle dynamos on one bike, or two on each bike would take too long to charge the battery. I just looked at the wattage on my daughters laptop. You could however contribute to the battery charging partly with the bikes. Or, if you don't mind pedaling for a few days to charge the battery to get a few hours of comuter use, you could do that. There might only be two people in the world who could pedal long enough to fill the battery. Lucky for you, they are both going to be there. :)

A solar panel can be left charging for as long as it takes while you do something else.
Solar,wind, or hydro would be the way to charge the battery. Depending oh how much you spend on the solar panels, it might take a day or two to charge the battery. Since you probably don't need the computer every day, I don't see any problem charging it with solar if you can afford the set up cost.

You might consider charging some batteries at another location that has power, like a neighbor or a store in town. Is there electricity already available at Rowans? Charging just the batteries for a few small things is not going to cost a lot if there is electric power available at Rowans.

I've been trying to think what a person would need/want power for.

For me, I'd want to be able to operate a computer (laptop), a radio, a CD player (or similar music making machine ... MP3?), and maybe a small portable TV to watch the occasional show. Some sort of refrigeration system would also be good, and I would like a microwave but could probably live without it. And I suppose some way to recharge batteries for a light or two and a couple cameras. What else would there be?

How about lights? Non-electric options are available, but they're a bit of a pain, and realistically, more expensive than electric. CFL lights are okay, but I'm much more enthusiastic about LEDs. They produce a lot of light in exchange for very few amp-hours, and the "bulbs" have an extremely long life span. LED lights are very expensive initially, but they'll more than pay for themselves in the long run.

Broadly speaking, though, I agree with you that all of us, if we really wanted to, could live fairly comfortably with a fraction of the electricity we currently use. Assuming of course, that you can do without air conditioning. Pulling that one off in a hot climate, like the American Southwest, or most of Australia, takes some imagination...

Is there electricity already available at Rowans? Charging just the batteries for a few small things is not going to cost a lot if there is electric power available at Rowans.

No ... the fire burnt out a lot of the electrical systems, and burnt down the buildings on the orchard property so there's nowhere to route the power lines to when/if it is restored to the area.




Assuming of course, that you can do without air conditioning. Pulling that one off in a hot climate, like the American Southwest, or most of Australia, takes some imagination...

That's quite doable ... Rowan survived the heatwave that preceded the bushfires without air conditioning. For quite some time the temps were going up into the mid-40s Celcius (110-115°F) every day.

For electric power in Mongolia they used a small photovoltaic with a controller, battery and inverter. The families I stayed with charged their mobile phone, had a single compact flourescent bulb for light and watched TV for a couple of hours a night from the small panel. The invertor provided 110 AC 60 Hz and 220 AC 50 Hz. Not sure of ultimate capacity but I am sure it could also charge a laptop.

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd14/dfahnest2/MongoliaPower.jpg

Have you considered not having items that required a "grid"? Check this out if you absolutely need power:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=bicycle+powered+generator&aq=5&oq=bicycle+po
Nobody does it except home-builders, and they do it just for fun.

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I knew that people would jump my case for suggesting a gas generator--but it is vastly more practical than the other two options, especially when you need electrical capacity quickly.

I also don't think that too many people here realize how expensive solar and wind systems really are--particular off-grid systems, where you need to have a battery bank to store the power in.

Solar power is a very elegant concept, I'll agree--but once you really dig into the (high) costs and (low) electrical capacities, it's not nearly as interesting.

Also another thing many people aren't aware of--solar panel output varies drastically with the cloud cover, and drastically drops off under anything but a perfectly-clear sky.

To the OP:
If you're going to stay in one place, I would suggest getting two generators in order to have one as a backup (they do break down occasionally). You don't need to get the expensive Japanese ones, but do try to get a name-brand that you know you can get parts for locally. A 1000-watt would probably do what you want, but a 2000-watt would have a much wider electrical safety margin, and I know that generator head electrical failures is the weakness of the Chinese-made generators that are common in the US.

If you want one small generator that offers maximum efficiency and portability, the Honda generators are very highly reviewed. They're very lightweight, quiet, efficient and reliable, but also rather expensive.
~

$800 generator is going to be a marginal POS and I wouldn't want to depend on it, then you have the issues of making sure it is fueled and maintained ($$$). .... The smallest generators we buy are the Honda 5,000 watt and they are over $2,000. But we have learned that is what works and works dependably.
So then......

....why doesn't your company just use solar panels instead of those 5000-watt Honda generators? ;)

(-according to my own rough guessing, an off-grid solar system that can deliver 5000 watts for 4-5 hours a day would probably cost well over $50K, and maybe over $75K. You'd want at least 10Kw of panels, and they would cost $40K alone-)

Now tell me again how expensive a generator is?

The generator is only expensive if you compare it to utility power--but utility power is the one option that isn't available in the OP's case. Using a gas generator is far less expensive than any comparable solar or wind setup would be.

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I would agree that the cheaper generators cannot withstand prolonged high-capacity use--but then again, if it's only used for an hour or two a day and at much-less than peak capacity, they can last quite a long time. If you buy TWO generators, then you have a spare when one stops running. :)
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So then......

....why doesn't your company just use solar panels instead of those 5000-watt Honda generators? ;)

(-according to my own rough guessing, an off-grid solar system that can deliver 5000 watts for 4-5 hours a day would probably cost well over $50K, and maybe over $75K. You'd want at least 10Kw of panels, and they would cost $40K alone-)

Now tell me again how expensive a generator is?

The generator is only expensive if you compare it to utility power--but utility power is the one option that isn't available in the OP's case. Using a gas generator is far less expensive than any comparable solar or wind setup would be.

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I would agree that the cheaper generators cannot withstand prolonged high-capacity use--but then again, if it's only used for an hour or two a day and at much-less than peak capacity, they can last quite a long time. If you buy TWO generators, then you have a spare when one stops running. :)
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Because you are comparing oranges to potatoes...

I have a couple of small solar panels that I use on job sites for recharging my laptop and cellphone. The main reason we don't use solarvoltic systems is because A) we do quite a bit of work at night, and B) they are not particularly portable.

For day to day use and recharging of small appliances ie; laptops, rechargeable LED lights, and small storage batteries AND in the location the OP is headed for solar is the best choice in the long run.

Generators are not particularly lightweight and are maintenance intensive...even when only being used a few hours a day. If you buy a cheap built generator you get what you pay for. I also have a 3500 watt Honda that I kept from a company I used to run years ago, it is still chugging along after 11 years and has over 5,000 hours on the meter. We currently use it up at our barn when we need to run a heavier power tool. FWIW the lighting at the barn is provided by self contained solar panels.;)

Aaron:)

I haven't seen anyone mention local geothermal heating and cooling.

I haven't seen anyone mention local geothermal heating and cooling.

Maybe because that wasn't what the OP asked:

"...I'd want to be able to operate a computer (laptop), a radio, a CD player (or similar music making machine ... MP3?), and maybe a small portable TV to watch the occasional show. Some sort of refrigeration system would also be good, and I would like a microwave but could probably live without it. And I suppose some way to recharge batteries for a light or two and a couple cameras. What else would there be? ..."
~

Foxfire books (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxfire_books)

Not so many ideas about power per se, but lots about how people used to use human powered machines to do a lot of the things we do with carbon energy today. You can read it online while rowan pedals a generator to power your computer. ;)

Other Aussies have a similar idea as Rowan and I do. :)

http://www.theage.com.au/national/van-life-as-dreams-take-shape-20090218-8bhi.html

http://www.theage.com.au/national/donated-caravans-the-first-step-20090218-8bhh.html

Foxfire books (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxfire_books)

Not so many ideas about power per se, but lots about how people used to use human powered machines to do a lot of the things we do with carbon energy today. You can read it online while rowan pedals a generator to power your computer. ;)

I remember reading what must have been the first Foxfire book back the 70s. There was a definite cult around them and many imitators (some of them actually great too... like Cape Breton magazine). Your link says they are up to the 12th volume. I didn't even know they were still alive.

I haven't seen anyone mention local geothermal heating and cooling.

This has become all the rage in eastern Canada, where I hail from. New home construction is now mostly heat pumps, although I think most of them are not truly "geo", but pull heat from the air. It's possible there as temps in winter average much higher than, say, Iowa. Apparently, it's now popular too because the installation costs aren't much higher than say an oil furnace and the locals consider the warm air a much more stable commodity than oil.

Other Aussies have a similar idea as Rowan and I do. :)

http://www.theage.com.au/national/van-life-as-dreams-take-shape-20090218-8bhi.html

http://www.theage.com.au/national/donated-caravans-the-first-step-20090218-8bhh.html

Nothing wrong with that. In the US the government provided trailers as a form of temporary housing after several major hurricanes. Some of us have lived in them for long periods of time because we chose too.:D

Aaron:)

...For day to day use and recharging of small appliances ie; laptops, rechargeable LED lights, and small storage batteries AND in the location the OP is headed for solar is the best choice in the long run. ...
The OP said she wanted to run a refrigerator and maybe a small microwave. Go look up how much wattage that such RV appliances use, and then go price out a off-grid solar setup big enough to run them.


... If you buy a cheap built generator you get what you pay for. I also have a 3500 watt Honda that I kept from a company I used to run years ago, it is still chugging along after 11 years and has over 5,000 hours on the meter. We currently use it up at our barn when we need to run a heavier power tool. ...
So a cheap generator is bad, but a good generator is good then?

-----

Also I'd point out, that if you're living off a generator, you can use it a lot less than you think.

What's common for people in this situation (of no mains power available) is to run it for an hour in the morning and at night, maybe another hour in the mid-afternoon, and that's it. Figure that you will need the refrigerator to run at least twice a day to cool down. The generator uses fuel and oil even idling, so you don't leave it running 24/7 for that reason alone--and it's quite noisy, so you wouldn't want it running when you were trying to sleep anyway.

As far as the OP's situation--you would want to buy one with the wattage to run the refrigerator and the microwave at the same time, and still have a healthy margin of electrical capacity left over to avoid overload failures. Remember, you are going to end up wanting to minimize the amount of time that the generator is run--so it's going to need to be able to run ALL your stuff at once. That means at least a 4000-watt generator by my figuring, assuming you'd be running RV/caravan-type appliances.
~

The OP said she wanted to run a refrigerator and maybe a small microwave. Go look up how much wattage that such RV appliances use, and then go price out a off-grid solar setup big enough to run them.


So a cheap generator is bad, but a good generator is good then?

-----

Also I'd point out, that if you're living off a generator, you can use it a lot less than you think.

What's common for people in this situation (of no mains power available) is to run it for an hour in the morning and at night, maybe another hour in the mid-afternoon, and that's it. Figure that you will need the refrigerator to run at least twice a day to cool down. The generator uses fuel and oil even idling, so you don't leave it running 24/7 for that reason alone--and it's quite noisy, so you wouldn't want it running when you were trying to sleep anyway.

As far as the OP's situation--you would want to buy one with the wattage to run the refrigerator and the microwave at the same time, and still have a healthy margin of electrical capacity left over to avoid overload failures. Remember, you are going to end up wanting to minimize the amount of time that the generator is run--so it's going to need to be able to run ALL your stuff at once. That means at least a 4000-watt generator by my figuring, assuming you'd be running RV/caravan-type appliances.
~


I have two generators in case the "grid" goes down, one is a 5.5kw and the other is a 1kw. I bought the 5.5kw generator back when my house wasn't as nearly as energy efficient as it is now, in which the 1kw can now run the household on if I alternate the load usage of the larger appliances. I can bring out the 5.5kw generator if I want to run all the appliances at once, but at a much higher db output and fuel consumption.

For me, I'd want to be able to operate a computer (laptop)

A laptop with a large screen needs more power than one with a smaller screen. Some of the netbooks, like Asus's EEEpc and Acer's Aspire One can run for 5-8 hours on a single charge. The longest run times come on machines with small screens and large batteries. A low power draw machine will run off solar fairly easily, and in some situations you might be able to get away with a "camping" panel like you find in larger outdoors stores.


a radio, a CD player (or similar music making machine ... MP3?), and maybe a small portable TV to watch the occasional show

My mp3 player (Sandisk Sansa Fuze) has a rather nice radio feature. I hate the radio with a passion, but it may come in handy someday. The charge is supposed to last for 20 hours of continuous use. In practice it is probably less. Some players offer a large enough screen that they're ok for watching TV, and others offer even longer battery life. I find anything but ipod (http://www.anythingbutipod.com) has a pretty broad selection of reviews, and their searchable database is helpful. A player with good battery life and that is easy to use as a TV substitute is often quite expensive... but it draws a lot less power than a real TV or CD player.

I'm not sure if Aus has a weather radio system the way the US does, but if so, they probably have hand cranked models available. These are quite useful.


Some sort of refrigeration system would also be good, and I would like a microwave but could probably live without it. And I suppose some way to recharge batteries for a light or two and a couple cameras. What else would there be?

Refrigeration is the most expensive thing on your list in power terms. It may be more power effective to use an icebox. This does mean lots of raw meat is unwise, but if you're trying to live off-grid, it tends to be unwise anyway. Many foods that keep better in cold will do just fine in an icebox. Quite a lot of what we think of as needing refrigeration doesn't... if you pick your foods right, you can get away with little or no ice use.

Phone service requires electricity. It is a good idea, if only so EMS has a chance of getting to you within the 1 hour window. No need to be obsessive, but heart attacks and broken femurs are not anything to fool with. I'd put this at a higher priority than a microwave myself.

It is sometimes possible to find antique "wringer" washing machines. Handwashing everything is a brutal and exhausting chore when it's more than bike shorts and jerseys. Even lightweight things like tropical weight wool slacks take a lot of effort by hand. The older machines don't need power, just cranking... and it may be possible to rig a bike to drive one.

It is pretty easy to find hand cranked flashlights with LED bulbs. Some of these offer charging for cell phones or MP3 players. This won't really answer if you need less direct lighting... I have yet to see a hand cranked lantern. But it would help keep power needs down.

The OP said she wanted to run a refrigerator and maybe a small microwave. Go look up how much wattage that such RV appliances use, and then go price out a off-grid solar setup big enough to run them.


So a cheap generator is bad, but a good generator is good then?

-----

Also I'd point out, that if you're living off a generator, you can use it a lot less than you think.

What's common for people in this situation (of no mains power available) is to run it for an hour in the morning and at night, maybe another hour in the mid-afternoon, and that's it. Figure that you will need the refrigerator to run at least twice a day to cool down. The generator uses fuel and oil even idling, so you don't leave it running 24/7 for that reason alone--and it's quite noisy, so you wouldn't want it running when you were trying to sleep anyway.

As far as the OP's situation--you would want to buy one with the wattage to run the refrigerator and the microwave at the same time, and still have a healthy margin of electrical capacity left over to avoid overload failures. Remember, you are going to end up wanting to minimize the amount of time that the generator is run--so it's going to need to be able to run ALL your stuff at once. That means at least a 4000-watt generator by my figuring, assuming you'd be running RV/caravan-type appliances.
~

MOST RV appliances are multi fuel ie; LP, 12volt and mains(voltage varies by country). Power management is your friend, it always amazes me when people are trying to size a generator for emergency power they either undersize it and try to run the whole house on 3500 watts or oversize and spend money to plan to run the entire house at full bore. FWIW I work on RV systems on a regular basis, a typical RV has way too much crap in it for simple off grid living. The OP pointed out that Air Conditioning was not necessary, that is the single largest draw. FWIW I can run my Airstream on a 2k Honda with no problem as long as I am conservative with power. I am not a fan of microwaves but do use one on occasion. If you need to use one with a 2k generator you plan ahead.

As far as the cheap/inexpensive generators are concerned; most if not all of them regulate the power output by chopping voltage, this is not good for most electronic products. Things like battery chargers and the newer microwaves contain control boards that will fry when exposed to the least little bit of voltage spike. The Hondas, Yamahas and many other premium brands use an inverter and electronic control to maintain clean power to protect the appliances, this is part of what you are paying for.

It is all about choices and making the best ones that will work for you and your situation. I can park a 17kw 3phase 480volt generator next to my house, contract to have the tank filled on a regular basis and run uninhibited. Or I can choose what I want to run and when and use a much smaller and economical generator for a couple of hours a day, supplemented by portable solar panels and batteries.

Aaron:)

MOST RV appliances are multi fuel ie; LP, 12volt and mains(voltage varies by country). Power management is your friend, it always amazes me when people are trying to size a generator for emergency power they either undersize it and try to run the whole house on 3500 watts or oversize and spend money to plan to run the entire house at full bore. FWIW I work on RV systems on a regular basis, a typical RV has way too much crap in it for simple off grid living. The OP pointed out that Air Conditioning was not necessary, that is the single largest draw. FWIW I can run my Airstream on a 2k Honda with no problem as long as I am conservative with power. I am not a fan of microwaves but do use one on occasion. If you need to use one with a 2k generator you plan ahead.

As far as the cheap/inexpensive generators are concerned; most if not all of them regulate the power output by chopping voltage, this is not good for most electronic products. Things like battery chargers and the newer microwaves contain control boards that will fry when exposed to the least little bit of voltage spike. The Hondas, Yamahas and many other premium brands use an inverter and electronic control to maintain clean power to protect the appliances, this is part of what you are paying for.

It is all about choices and making the best ones that will work for you and your situation. I can park a 17kw 3phase 480volt generator next to my house, contract to have the tank filled on a regular basis and run uninhibited. Or I can choose what I want to run and when and use a much smaller and economical generator for a couple of hours a day, supplemented by portable solar panels and batteries.

Aaron:)


3500 watts is considered undersized? I'll consider myself fortunate in being able run my household on 1kw in emergency situations.

3500 watts is considered undersized? I'll consider myself fortunate in being able run my household on 1kw in emergency situations.

For the average American home with a 300 amp 240 volt feed...yes, if you plan to run your house as if it were on grid. Very few people have any clue as to how much power they actually use, all they see is the power bill and complain about it when the power goes up by a 1/2 cent per kilowatt. If you have to live off grid or work with alternative power sources you are much more aware of the amount and costs of power. We are set up in such a way at home that we can weather almost any type of emergency short of total destruction. We did this by diversifying our appliances, using energy efficient appliances and by grouping things by load to make temporary power more viable. We also have back stocks of canned goods, water and minor medical supplies.

When I was in Mobile, AL, Katrina came a calling. I left the area until after the storm. When I came back (job requirements) I was prepared to be without power for an extended period of time and I was prepared to live without ready access to things like gasoline and food. Many of my coworkers spent a few hours EVERY DAY in line at gas stations in an attempt to get a few gallons of gas to get them through until the next time. A few of them got it and started carpooling. I was the only one with a bicycle in that group and was using it. It is all about how you look at any given situation. The old saying about; doing things the same way, but expecting different results. In this case it is looking at a situation and weighing the best way to do things for the best end results that suit you. They chose to sit in long lines for a chance to buy 5-6 gallons of gas. I chose to park my truck and ride my bike. It took 30 minutes to ride from the jobsite to the motel versus driving it in less than 10 minutes. I think my time was better spent:p To each their own, and no one solution will fit every problem.:thumb:

Aaron:)

Yes, of course. Like using Rowan's Trangia instead of a "real" stove/oven, like using his solar shower instead of having a "real" shower ....

But we do still like listening to music, and would like to have computer access so I can stay in touch with my family ... although Rowan's pocketmail works quite well for that ... and it would be handy to have a way to keep food cool so it doesn't go bad.

I take it where ever you plan on living you are close enough to someone elses grid to use your lap top? WIFI? Or do you plan on using a phone card USB?

I take it where ever you plan on living you are close enough to someone elses grid to use your lap top? WIFI? Or do you plan on using a phone card USB?

We're considering wireless options. At the moment, the closest telephone land line is about 7 or 8 km away, and it's a pay phone ... that's what Rowan uses to send pocketmail messages to me, and to receive emails from me.

We're considering wireless options. At the moment, the closest telephone land line is about 7 or 8 km away, and it's a pay phone ... that's what Rowan uses to send pocketmail messages to me, and to receive emails from me.

With the massive amount of infrastructure damage the fires caused I wonder how the cellular system (if there was one) made out? There is always satellite for internet, but it is expensive and fairly bulky. If the cellular system is up and running either a tethered cellphone or aircard would be the way to go. I have no clue what cellular systems are in use in AU. But I am very familiar with most of the US ones:rolleyes:

Current system for getting online in the US range from a DSL based wireless system at home to a tethered Blackberry on the road (if I can't find WiFi) to a Verizon based aircard hot spot at my jobsite.:D We also have and use Sprint PCS, Nextel and Altel(now Verizon)

Aaron:)

... For me, I'd want to be able to operate a computer (laptop), a radio, a CD player (or similar music making machine ... MP3?), and maybe a small portable TV to watch the occasional show. Some sort of refrigeration system would also be good, and I would like a microwave but could probably live without it. And I suppose some way to recharge batteries for a light or two and a couple cameras. What else would there be?

So far there has not been much advice on TV's - I suggest using your laptop and a USB TV tuner. North America is NTSC and HDTV, I think Australia is PAL. You can get a USB PAL / NTSC tuner (http://www.buy.com/prod/mpt-usb-2-0-tv-tuner-and-video-capture-box-usb-pal-ntsc-retail-mpt-usb/q/loc/101/203068664.html) for your laptop from Buy.com for $30. I use an HDTV USB tuner with my laptop that cost approximately $60 from Fries Electronics a year ago (it is better than a Tivo). If your laptop has reasonable built-in speakers then you are sorted, otherwise you should consider external powered speakers (could also be used with an MP3 player).

Learn how to configure your laptop's power settings to maximize battery life - turn off the hard disk if idle for 1 minute. Set your screen saver to a blank screen. Most laptops have an Fn key that is used in conjunction with the function keys (F1 through F12) to control the laptop. Two of those buttons will control the brilliance of the display - if you use the laptop in the shade then you should be able to get by with minimum brilliance. This will extend the battery life and also the life of the display lamp.

If you are not using the Laptop's wireless network connection, then turn it off - on most laptops there is a very small switch somewhere along the edge of the laptop. If there is no switch, then you will need to consult your laptop's documentaton (or do a Google search).

Don't use your laptop actually on your lap or on a soft surface that may block any vents on the underside - if it gets hot, a fan may kick-in, and you want it to cool the internals as efficiently as possible.

If you are going to use a large external battery (like a car battery) to allow extended use of your laptop on a regular basis - then it is worth looking for or configuring a battery that has the same voltage(s) as the laptop. That way, you can bypass any (inefficient) inverter and the laptop's transformer (power brick).

Definitely try to use LED's for lighting - long life and the most light for the least power consumed.

For refrigerator or microwave - go with something designed for use in an RV or caravan.

In the winter, if it gets too cold and you have to use electricity for heat, then consider a 150 watt electric blanket instead of a 1,500 watt fan heater (or electric oil filled radiator). It is much cheaper to heat you than it is to heat the room.

I knew a guy that lived up in the mountains near town down a long, rutted, dirt driveway. He used hydro on a small creek in his back yard to generate 12v power. Everything in his house was 12v. He was completely off the electric grid and it worked fine.

I think he had a generator for backup, but never used it.

Az