Electronics, Lighting, & Gadgets - can you run a horn from light batteries?

Hi,

Just wondering if it would be possible to run a scooter horn from the batteries used by light sets (e.g. dinotte, light and motion etc.) while running the lights off them too?

Trying to figure out how to get a horn on my bike :(!

Thanks

Daven

have you ever heard of 'air zounds'?

Hi,

Just wondering if it would be possible to run a scooter horn from the batteries used by light sets (e.g. dinotte, light and motion etc.) while running the lights off them too?

Trying to figure out how to get a horn on my bike :(!

Thanks

Daven

apparently some of those scooter and motorcycle horns pull a lot of amps for a brief moment, and most of them are 12 vdc - are your lights 12vdc (i bet not).

Don't listen to these naysayers. 12 volts, 1,500 volts, AC/DC, nuclear, amps, joules....they're all just fancy words. Just attach the horn to your battery and give it a blast. The worst that can happen is you break something

I don't yet have any decent lights, I was just wondering if it was possible as a consideration for when I do get some decent lights.

I did consider the air zound but it looks a bit bulky and has mixed reviews. Is it any good?

Thanks

I use this one.

http://seasense.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=318&category_id=43&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=26

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/10wheels/horn003.jpg

Hi,

Just wondering if it would be possible to run a scooter horn from the batteries used by light sets (e.g. dinotte, light and motion etc.) while running the lights off them too?

Trying to figure out how to get a horn on my bike :(!

Thanks

Daven

I know this isn't the answer you might be looking for but...I use a Metropolitan Police whistle. Or what's known as a Bobby's whistle. It's strapped around my neck.

@ 10 wheels: how do you mount that?

@ garfield cat: I use a full face helmet so using a whistle might be a little hard, however I shall consider it as I'm sure it works.

^^^ Two Fish Lock Block should work great to mount that horn 10 wheels posted the link to.

http://www.twofish.biz/bike.html

thanks, might just go with a battery pack and horn though, seems easier, and a lot of people say drivers don't recognise an air horn sound.

Historically a lot of early vehicles had 6 volt electrics.

Even now some small motorcycles have 6 volt electrics.

I'd guess you can still buy 6V horns somewhere.

:)

ye I was thinking a 6 volt horn, what amperage is necessary for these? I was going to go with a 6v 4300mah battery

I saw a web page that said 6 volts at 3 amps would give 105 db. Look down in the page.

http://www.wolo-mfg.com/indust.htm

That would be fine with your battery.

ye I was thinking a 6 volt horn, what amperage is necessary for these? I was going to go with a 6v 4300mah battery

6V Horn (http://www.mandp.co.uk/productInfo.aspx?catRef=500473)

http://www.mandp.co.uk/netalogue/photos/large/GUUHOOTAA.jpg

that looks good, no place seems to list the amp draw! I'm sure 4300mah would be fine though...I hope!

DING - result :)
http://www.getgeared.co.uk/Mini_Single_Horns

that looks good, no place seems to list the amp draw! I'm sure 4300mah would be fine though...I hope!

DING - result :)
http://www.getgeared.co.uk/Mini_Single_Horns

Should be ok.

Just don't keep your finger on the button for longer than 2 hrs 45 mins or you'll have a flat battery.

It might be worth fitting two of them as they are only 100dB.

lol, well I'll probably go for a much smaller battery, 6V and 1500mAh. Although with the drivers in london I might need the bigger battery! The reason I decided I really must get a horn is after some idiot pulled out of a side road, while using his phone, right into my path and he ignored my hand gesturing! Also had a woman pull out on my that ride. *sigh*

YouTube - Air Zound 3 Bike Horn

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product-Delta-Air-Zound-3-Bicycle-Mounted-Air-Horn-4.htm

ye I saw that but wasn't too impressed, I want to sound like a car / motorbike so the car drivers recognise me and at £30 you can get a horn and battery etc. for probably a bit less.

ye I saw that but wasn't too impressed, I want to sound like a car / motorbike so the car drivers recognise me and at £30 you can get a horn and battery etc. for probably a bit less.

Are you including wiring, switch, charger, mounts, etc? For 30 that seems a decent deal and it is a turn key solution that is LOUD. The Airzound 2 seems to be around 23 pounds. (sorry no pound symbol on my American keyboard ;))

Airzound 2 Rechargeable Horn - The worlds loudest horn!: Amazon.co.uk: Sports & Leisure

no I am not :) but however much it costs I think will be worth the first time it is unleashed on a blind motorist.

I bought this for $20 US and attached it to my v-brake mounts. 132 dB. I haven't dared use it yet.

http://i19.ebayimg.com/02/i/001/28/8b/cea9_1.JPG

@ 10 wheels: how do you mount that?

@ garfield cat: I use a full face helmet so using a whistle might be a little hard, however I shall consider it as I'm sure it works.

I use a cut piece of innertube (as a rubber band 1/2 wide) and put it on my drop bars.
Have one on each side as I get many dog attacks each day.
It will swivel and does not get in the way if you use the drops.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/10wheels/horn002.jpg

Don't listen to these naysayers. 12 volts, 1,500 volts, AC/DC, nuclear, amps, joules....they're all just fancy words. Just attach the horn to your battery and give it a blast. The worst that can happen is you break something

I tried this theory on my 4th year EE midterms, it didn't work:(

The airzound is ridiculously loud. Louder than a car horn and very light. No battery either. The video above does not do the horn justice.

Just found this on ebay:

Megahorn (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180331084953&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:1123)

105 dB

already have one of those. A woman pulled out and I tooted it long and hard and even though she had her window down she didn't bat an eyelid. I want a horn that'll make her brown her pants!

already have one of those. A woman pulled out and I tooted it long and hard and even though she had her window down she didn't bat an eyelid. I want a horn that'll make her brown her pants!

Your best bet would be to get an Intercity 125 horn.

:D

heh :) wouldn't like to carry the battery though!!

Am pretty set on the horn I linked to above, the 6v 1.5amp one. I am just looking for a decent way to mount it and remove the battery when I leave my bike as I don't want people to play with it!!

You could try to recycle and old smoke alarm.
Dispose of the radioactive materisl though.

9 volts, loud and free.

6V Horn (http://www.mandp.co.uk/productInfo.aspx?catRef=500473)

http://www.mandp.co.uk/netalogue/photos/large/GUUHOOTAA.jpg

This is the horn I use. Most moped/scooter horns are AC, but this one comes in AC and DC versions. While I do not know for a fact that an AC one would not run from a battery, I preferred to stay on the safe side and got a DC one. I operate it from 5 AA rechargeable NIMH that get charged by a hub dynamo. I do not remember the current the horn was taking when powered outside of the bike, over short wires, but I think it was over one ampere. Over losses across the wiring on the bike, with switches and connectors, the current certainly drops. The horn has, though, a screw that allows you to adjust the threshold current for activating the horn. My impression was that lowering of the threshold lowered the loudness, though.

One surprising finding was that the loudness depended crucially on the mounting, the flexibility of the mount and its length. The mount with which the horn came was some compromise. Otherwise, I was surprised to find the horn to rust rather rapidly. I stopped it, but I would have expected a better weather resistance.

This is the horn I use. Most moped/scooter horns are AC, but this one comes in AC and DC versions. While I do not know for a fact that an AC one would not run from a battery, I preferred to stay on the safe side and got a DC one. I operate it from 5 AA rechargeable NIMH that get charged by a hub dynamo. I do not remember the current the horn was taking when powered outside of the bike, over short wires, but I think it was over one ampere. Over losses across the wiring on the bike, with switches and connectors, the current certainly drops. The horn has, though, a screw that allows you to adjust the threshold current for activating the horn. My impression was that lowering of the threshold lowered the loudness, though.

One surprising finding was that the loudness depended crucially on the mounting, the flexibility of the mount and its length. The mount with which the horn came was some compromise. Otherwise, I was surprised to find the horn to rust rather rapidly. I stopped it, but I would have expected a better weather resistance.

I thought they stopped fitting AC horns sometime before the 60s when mopeds started getting batteries ?

The screw on the horn is supposed to adjust the tone.

When you say threshhold current what do you mean ?

I thought they stopped fitting AC horns sometime before the 60s when mopeds started getting batteries ?


I have no recent personal experience with mopeds, but when I looked for 6V horns virtually everything was AC.



The screw on the horn is supposed to adjust the tone.


No instructions came with the horn, on the screw or anything else. However, while the horn worked fine off the bike, its operation was patchy on the bike. When the batteries got weakened in winter riding, the horn would not start. I have nearly given up on the horn, but then noticed the screw and decided to try it out. I found that I could get the horn start even for depleted batteries, by adjusting the screw.



When you say threshhold current what do you mean ?

I do not have a value for the current, but I am sure that the connectors, long cables, switch and weakened batteries limit the current running through the horn. When I had problems starting the horn, I could run shorter cables avoiding my switch and some connector and could activate the horn.

As another remark, I looked at sparking associated with operating the horn, given that there is some inductance inside, and have placed a capacitor parallel to the switch to prevent its frying. The horn is on for a few months now and the switch has not died, so I assume the capacitor fulfills its role.

I do not have a value for the current, but I am sure that the connectors, long cables, switch and weakened batteries limit the current running through the horn. When I had problems starting the horn, I could run shorter cables avoiding my switch and some connector and could activate the horn.

What capacity are the NIMH ? High capacity nimh don't like high loads.

You might be better off using nicads as generally they can provide more current.

Measure the voltage under load and see if it drops, if it does you could use 6 cells instead of 5 - that should get you a voltage and current increase, making the horn measurably louder.

Being a 6V DC horn it should be able to cope with the generator output on a 6V vehicle, somewhere around 7.2V - 7.4V, so hopefully a 6S nicad or nimh pack would be an improvement over a 5S pack.

You could try a 6S pack and measure the on-load voltage ?

:)

What capacity are the NIMH ? High capacity nimh don't like high loads.

You might be better off using nicads as generally they can provide more current.

Measure the voltage under load and see if it drops, if it does you could use 6 cells instead of 5 - that should get you a voltage and current increase, making the horn measurably louder.


The horn has been an add-on to the rest of my circuitry where 'the rest' has had a higher priority and needed 5 high-capacity rechargeables. The batteries are 5 NiMHs with theoretical capacity of 1.5-2 Ah, currently most likely around 1 Ah.



Being a 6V DC horn it should be able to cope with the generator output on a 6V vehicle, somewhere around 7.2V - 7.4V, so hopefully a 6S nicad or nimh pack would be an improvement over a 5S pack.

You could try a 6S pack and measure the on-load voltage ?

:)

For me the system currently is fine as it is, after I reduced power consumption by my lighting and tamed the battery wear, even in winter all time on conditions. However, I can do the measurement for the befit of others :D.

I do not have a value for the current, but I am sure that the connectors, long cables, switch and weakened batteries limit the current running through the horn. When I had problems starting the horn, I could run shorter cables avoiding my switch and some connector and could activate the horn.

You can do away with the capacitor and get more amps to your horn if you use a small relay.

:)

You can do away with the capacitor and get more amps to your horn if you use a small relay.

:)

I have fried relays on the bike as well and have learned to check and contain sparking whenever there is a significant inductance in the circuitry, with the dynamo being particularly offensive. Otherwise, I wanted to get away just with whatever I could pack into the switch housing.

115DB (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/bicycle/bicycle-horn-honks-at-115db-+-thats-jet-plane-loud-284982.php) supposedly about 5db louder than a car horn and 5db less than a Jet plane.

5db doesn't sound much, but when you realise an increase of one 1db is not a graduated linear increase but an exponential one it makes a difference ;)

(My Brother-In-Law is a sound designer and lectures university students on the subject. His book... Designing Sound (http://aspress.co.uk/ds/index.html))

I think you'll find dB's are logarithmic, not exponential.

A 3dB increase is equal to a 100% increase of sound pressure level ie. it's twice as much.

How loud something is in dB - car horn or jet engine - is dependent on distance.

:)

Decibels are an exponential measurement of sound rather than a linear measurement of sound. A sound level of fifty-eight (58) compares to normal conversational speech heard from a distance of three (3) feet. Sound levels of sixty-eight (68) to seventy (70) approximate the sound of a passing freight train heard from a distance of one hundred (100) feet.

Below please find a brief explanation of “noise.”

Noise creates annoyance through a combination of factors, both physical and psychological. In the physical realm, it includes:
• The level of the noise
• The frequency (pitch) of the sound
• The sound's duration
• its periodicity and predictability
• its tonal nature, and/or impulsive nature

All of this has to be compared to the background noise at the receiver (i.e., the noise that the receiver would experience in the absence of this intruding source). It is these physical factors that can be measured.

In the psychological realm, factors, which have an influence on an individual’s reaction to noise, include:
• The time of day that the noise occurs (relative to the receiver's wake/sleep cycle)
• The activities of the receiver (a receiver undertaking tasks which require concentration will be more disturbed by a given sound than one undertaking tasks that require little concentration)
• The relationship between the receiver and the noise producer (one might be significantly more tolerant to a noise if one worked for, or was good friends with the noise producer)
• A fear of the noise source (people with a fear of flying can be less tolerant to airport noise)
• A sense of inevitability to the noise (individuals will complain more vigorously about a noise source if they feel that their complaints will be effective, and less if they feel that the noise is inevitable regardless of how much they complain).


That is why I said exponential (plus most peeps understand that a bit more than logarithmic).

Are you kidding ?

That quote isn't right :( it's definitely a logarithmic unit, not an exponential.

DB was a logarithmic unit when I was at school and it still is now, look anywhere you like.

Wikipedia "The decibel (dB) is a logarithmic unit of measurement that expresses the magnitude of a physical quantity (usually power or intensity) relative to a specified or implied reference level. Since it expresses a ratio of two quantities with the same unit, it is a dimensionless unit. A decibel is one tenth of a bel (B)."

Dictionary "a unit used to express the intensity of a sound wave, equal to 20 times the common logarithm of the ratio of the pressure produced by the sound wave to a reference pressure, usually 0.0002 microbar."

UNSW "The decibel (dB) is used to measure sound level, but it is also widely used in electronics, signals and communication. The dB is a logarithmic unit used to describe a ratio."

Answers.com "A logarithmic unit used to express the magnitude of a change in level of power, voltage, current, or sound intensity. A decibel (dB) is 1/10 bel."

SFU "A unit of a logarithmic scale of power or intensity called the power level or intensity level. The decibel is defined as one tenth of a bel where one bel represents a difference in level between two intensities I1, I0 where one is ten times greater than the other."

Physics Classroom "Since the range of intensities which the human ear can detect is so large, the scale which is frequently used by physicists to measure intensity is a scale based on multiples of 10. This type of scale is sometimes referred to as a logarithmic scale. The scale for measuring intensity is the decibel scale."

That's the first few results of a net search there are plenty more and they all say the same thing, dB's are logarithmic.

You are going to have to trust me on this one, I KNOW for a fact that dB's are logarithmic.

:)

115dB... my ears are bleeding...

there's a reason why carhorns stop at 110dB

http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/hearing/ruler.asp

This is the horn I use. Most moped/scooter horns are AC, but this one comes in AC and DC versions. While I do not know for a fact that an AC one would not run from a battery, I preferred to stay on the safe side and got a DC one. I operate it from 5 AA rechargeable NIMH that get charged by a hub dynamo. I do not remember the current the horn was taking when powered outside of the bike, over short wires, but I think it was over one ampere. Over losses across the wiring on the bike, with switches and connectors, the current certainly drops. The horn has, though, a screw that allows you to adjust the threshold current for activating the horn. My impression was that lowering of the threshold lowered the loudness, though.

One surprising finding was that the loudness depended crucially on the mounting, the flexibility of the mount and its length. The mount with which the horn came was some compromise. Otherwise, I was surprised to find the horn to rust rather rapidly. I stopped it, but I would have expected a better weather resistance.

How do you mount it? I am trying to figure out a way to have the horn, switch and battery so it is easily removable and waterproof.

I guess you could put the whole lot in a project box and use mounts from DX ?

Or alternatively make it very difficult to remove ?

well I am not too bothered about leaving it on the bike, as long as I can remove the battery.

How do you mount it? I am trying to figure out a way to have the horn, switch and battery so it is easily removable and waterproof.

In my area, bicycles get stolen, but generally not items rigidly attached to the bike, as long as they are cumbersome to remove and represent no obvious immediate value to the would-be thief. Thus, I need to worry more about the bike as a whole, than about the items of the above sort. The horn is rigidly attached to my front rack and moderately hidden under a basket on top of the rack. The batteries and circuitry to charge the batteries are in a box attached rigidly to the basket. The box is only moderately waterproof, but I have applied a heavy coating to the circuit board. I made the switch housing for the handlebars myself, but you might get something comparable commercially made for mopeds.

Again, to emphasize, the mounting for the horn is quite critical. If the mounting is flexible, the sound becomes muffled, as if you have dropped the horn into a bucket. My bet is that the energy delivered to the horn is then expended into rattling the horn on its mount rather than producing the sound wave.

The specific horn comes attached to a piece of metal with a thrown in nut acting as a washer between the horn and the piece. The size of the piece, its rigidity and the nut all optimize in some way the loudness. You can change them, but you need to monitor effects on the loudness and the effects will be weird, such as in going through peaks and dips in the loudness when changing the length of the mount.

thanks, the only reason I want to remove the battery is to prevent people using the horn while I am away from the bike.

Will probably use some sort of handlebar bag for the battery etc.

Any chance you can take a picture of the switch mount?

Also what circuitry did you require, I was planning a simple battery -> switch -> horn -> battery arrangement?

thanks for the help :)

Any chance you can take a picture of the switch mount?


The switch cluster is below. It operates lights and horn and has 2 LEDs for status of operation. The housing is out of stainless steel sheet soldered to a box.



Also what circuitry did you require, I was planning a simple battery -> switch -> horn -> battery arrangement?


The circuitry is for lights and dynamo, i.e. nothing you need to be concerned about. The only thing that I would put is a capacitor across the horn switch. I found 22 uF to be suitable. Since for this capacity you need to use a polarized (electrolytic) capacitor, watch the direction of polarization.



thanks for the help :)

No problem, glad to assist :D.

thanks for the picture :) I think I finally have a good idea of what I am doing! Just need to find a switch that is low-profile enough to put under a drop bar's brake lever.

Measure the voltage under load and see if it drops, if it does you could use 6 cells instead of 5 - that should get you a voltage and current increase, making the horn measurably louder.

Being a 6V DC horn it should be able to cope with the generator output on a 6V vehicle, somewhere around 7.2V - 7.4V, so hopefully a 6S nicad or nimh pack would be an improvement over a 5S pack.

You could try a 6S pack and measure the on-load voltage ?

:)

OK, here come the measurements for NiMH AAs with the horn on.

5AAs: V_bat_terminals=5.7V I=0.8A
6AAs: V_bat_terminals=6.7V I=1.0A

These are DC measurements. I actually also have true-RMS on my meter which might matter for the current. I tried the latter and it was actually giving I=0.7A for 5AAs but I did not explore this further. For the ballpark, the above will have to do - I will not throw the patterns onto my oscilloscope circuitry ;).