Living Car Free - LCF versus auto ownership

i think i finally figured out why people in my neighborhood don't use bikes
i live on long island and you can only use your bike about 75 percent of the year due to weather conditions such as snow/ice and extreme cold. so if you have to go to work every day and 25 percent of the time you are using a taxi the expense of the taxi fees equals what the expense of car ownership would be.
so i don't see people switching to bikes even if the economy gets worse.

I take it there's no public transit there?

People will switch when gas hits $10/gallon. And it will.

i think i finally figured out why people in my neighborhood don't use bikes
i live on long island and you can only use your bike about 75 percent of the year due to weather conditions such as snow/ice and extreme cold. so if you have to go to work every day and 25 percent of the time you are using a taxi the expense of the taxi fees equals what the expense of car ownership would be.
so i don't see people switching to bikes even if the economy gets worse.

Tons of people bike in snow/ice and "extreme cold" myself included. (keep in mind extreme cold for NY might be another year round commuters idea of a spring day) It's just a matter of having the right equipment and being prepared for it.

I take it there's no public transit there?

People will switch when gas hits $10/gallon. And it will.

public transportation for most areas is non-existant in these parts, so people use cars
as far as riding in the snow/ice and extreme cold conditions i don't think reasonable people would go for that.

i don't think reasonable people would go for that.

What makes a person 'reasonable' ?
Moving to a suburb ?
Not caring about their community beyond themselves ?

Just wondering...........

you can only use your bike about 75 percent of the year due to weather conditions such as snow/ice and extreme cold.

Tell that to someone who's biked year round in Anchorage, Alaska.

(like me or Cosmoline)

i see some people here think it is okay to bike when there is ice on the roads.
isn't it dangerous to ride on the ice. i would think you wouldn't get traction if you rode on the ice with bike tires. i would think there is a greater chance of slipping and falling if you ride on ice,no?

It's no more dangerous than riding on ice in a car...

What makes a person 'reasonable' ?
Moving to a suburb ?
Not caring about their community beyond themselves ?

Just wondering...........

yes unfortunately you just summed it up....

i see some people here think it is okay to bike when there is ice on the roads.
isn't it dangerous to ride on the ice. i would think you wouldn't get traction if you rode on the ice with bike tires. i would think there is a greater chance of slipping and falling if you ride on ice,no?

With carbide studded tires the chances of you tires slipping on ice are significantly reduced. I personally have never had my tires slip on ice...

New York might be a different world. I myself do ride in the winter, but I have a "back way" that keeps me off the busy streets, and I take that way when the busy streets are not plowed to the curb. My own "safety protocol" says that I do not go on the busy streets when they have snow on them, since I have fallen on them. On the back way, there is so little traffic that I feel perfectly safe even if the streets are slippery.

In a more crowded city, there might not be a non-busy street, and therefore one might have to ride on a busy street that is also slippery. I could see where one might not want to do that.

I think that one has to cultivate a bit of an attitude to keep the motivation up for riding in the winter. I personally make it a game to see how bad things have to get before I won't go. That makes me sort of welcome the cold and the snow so I can test my equipment.

I think that one has to cultivate a bit of an attitude to keep the motivation up for riding in the winter. I personally make it a game to see how bad things have to get before I won't go. That makes me sort of welcome the cold and the snow so I can test my equipment.

LOL... I play the same game, so far this year I am winning... My only car commuting day was yesterday because I thought might have a buyer interested in looking at my car...

I biked year round in Montana winter with temperatures down to -5 + wind chill. Bikes can be used year round in all conditions. My car at the time was about as safe/controlled as biking.

Remember people go skiing and the like in these conditions every day (I wore my ski gear while biking). People can exist outdoors at temps below 40 degrees. Why is biking in 20 degree weather nuts and skiing perfectly reasonable?

public transportation for most areas is non-existant in these parts, so people use cars
as far as riding in the snow/ice and extreme cold conditions i don't think reasonable people would go for that.

A large number of the people on BF, then, could then be labeled as 'unreasonable' by those standards. (which may even be accurate :p)

Here in the DC area it snowed maybe two or three times this year and I didn't miss a day on my non-studded 28's every single day I went to work... I'd definitely buy studded tires if I lived farther north. As far as the cold goes I read a quote recently (I'm summarizing) about there not being bad weather... just bad clothing.

A large number of the people on BF, then, could then be labeled as 'unreasonable' by those standards. (which may even be accurate :p)

Here in the DC area it snowed maybe two or three times this year and I didn't miss a day on my non-studded 28's every single day I went to work... I'd definitely buy studded tires if I lived farther north. As far as the cold goes I read a quote recently (I'm summarizing) about there not being bad weather... just bad clothing.

Good point. But I wonder how many people are in the position to ride a bike in such weather? How many are physically able and for how many is it practical? If you have an infant and need to drop them off on your way to work would you submit them to the cold? Is it uncaring to the rest of society to have that concern? If this seems contentious just ignore the post.

It would be nice if more people decided to commute by bike but from a realistic point of view it is doubtful. We are talking about a society that has a remote control to change TV stations from 6 to 12 feet away rather than get up to do so. Even if gas hits 10 bucks that doesn’t mean people will switch to bikes. It only means that someone will come up with an alternative method of propelling transportation pods from point A to point B and keep the passenger out of the weather while doing it.

For my Eastern bike riding brothers and sisters I will admit to being a bit of a wuss in that I don’t ride in the rain. If it rained more here I would even consider getting av EV to go to the store. I tried in when I was younger. I rode a motorcycle for 8 years 35 miles into LA rain or shine. I know how miserable getting wet and being exposed to the open is even with the best rain gear. I would rather not do it again.

There is nothing unreasonable about riding your bike during the winter. All you need to do is throw on a pair of studded snow tires at the beginning of the season, and take them off at the end. If you're really dedicated, you can build a second wheel set so you can swap them out at will. You have to realize, the roads in most parts of the country are not icy all winter long, only until the streets crews get out there and plow/sand/salt them. You could probably get by just fine with out snow tires, taking the cab on days that it's snowing if you're really that uncomfortable with it.

But the fact of the matter is, it's easy. It's not much different than riding at any other time of the year. You just have to dress for the weather. I got around far better this year on my bike than I did last year with my car. My biggest concern was other cars losing control and hitting me, which is why when the streets were bad I would alter my routes or even ride on sidewalks in some areas. I've found that the main streets were usually well kept, so it was rarely an issue anyway.

This year I rode through snow and ice, and with temps reaching -20F and windchill approaching -50... it sounds intimidating. If you had asked me if I would ride in that weather last fall, before I had ever done any winter riding I would have said "No f-ing way!". In retrospect, I clearly thought it was going to be much more challenging than it really is.

i think i finally figured out why people in my neighborhood don't use bikes

Slow down. Okay, so someone has to drive 25% of the time. So they're not car free. So what? There is still a substantial benefit (savings on gasoline, less wear & tear on car, increased fitness) to be had with riding a bike 75% of the time. I'm down to 1-2 fillups per month from once per week. There's a big difference between using bikes and living car free.

That's the problem with a lot of people is that they think of cycle commuting and owning a car as mutually exclusive. They aren't. My company hasn't jumped into the $20/month incentive for cycle commuters (grrr) but they are doing lots of other things to encourage bicycle commuting and have been for some time (including advocacy, showers, etc.)

Slow down. Okay, so someone has to drive 25% of the time. So they're not car free. So what? There is still a substantial benefit (savings on gasoline, less wear & tear on car, increased fitness) to be had with riding a bike 75% of the time. I'm down to 1-2 fillups per month from once per week. There's a big difference between using bikes and living car free.

That's the problem with a lot of people is that they think of cycle commuting and owning a car as mutually exclusive. They aren't. My company hasn't jumped into the $20/month incentive for cycle commuters (grrr) but they are doing lots of other things to encourage bicycle commuting and have been for some time (including advocacy, showers, etc.)

There are a lot of reasons to cut out the 25% driving. Just keeping an expensive and ecologically disasterous appliance around for a few cold days in winter seems ridiculous.

Having said that, if you do own a car, it would certainly be a great idea to replace it with a bicycle for 75% of your transportation. After you evolve to the point where bicycling is a major part of your life, you'll find yourself chipping away at the 25%.

At least that's my experience. This has been one of the worst, coldest winters in Iowa in quite some time. However, I've become accustomed to cycling in winter and can make most trips to work or wherever by bicycle. For extremely cold days, I am able to use a bus.

Slow down. Okay, so someone has to drive 25% of the time. So they're not car free. So what? There is still a substantial benefit (savings on gasoline, less wear & tear on car, increased fitness) to be had with riding a bike 75% of the time. I'm down to 1-2 fillups per month from once per week. There's a big difference between using bikes and living car free.

That's the problem with a lot of people is that they think of cycle commuting and owning a car as mutually exclusive. They aren't. My company hasn't jumped into the $20/month incentive for cycle commuters (grrr) but they are doing lots of other things to encourage bicycle commuting and have been for some time (including advocacy, showers, etc.)

+1

Being a person of reason is the key. Cars, trucks and bicycles can co-exist and using one doesn’t make one wiser or more interested in the good of society than the other.

I've driven a car on ice and I've ridden a bike on ice (without studded tires) and I felt safer on the bike. Yes, it hurts to fall down, but at least slipping with the bike wouldn't cost me $500+ in repairs and/or cause my insurance rate to go up. Of course, it helps that my commute is 90% MUP, which is all but abandoned in the winter. Overall, I think I'd rather walk than drive or ride. :innocent:

I rode a motorcycle for 8 years 35 miles into LA rain or shine. I know how miserable getting wet and being exposed to the open is even with the best rain gear. I would rather not do it again.

On a motorcycle, yes, since you're just sat there. It's completely different on a bicycle where you are working, warming yourself up to the point where I was perfectly comfortable with just a thin shell and thinsulate gloves over a T-shirt and sweater in 5 degree Celsius rain today. And really, how often does it rain in California?

I have to say that I personally have only owned bicycles and never had a license to drive. I live a few hundred miles north of acorn's area. It's only cold for a few weeks in Jan/Feb I say that because you get used to it now 40 is down right toasty and I think it;s my favorite temp well 40F to 50F. As far as ice goes it can be a pain in intersections where it ruts up. I slid out twice this winter once on slippery concrete and once on sandy concrete it was kind of fun on ice you slide and you should already be going slow. That's the key slow and careful when on ice. I'm sure that NY towns have plows and sander/salters. Carfee in the coastal region is an adventure but nothing compaired to what the far northers put up with.
Don't be a baby try it, get comfortable being bundled up. Also I ride without studs as the coast gets a lot of rain.

On a motorcycle, yes, since you're just sat there. It's completely different on a bicycle where you are working, warming yourself up to the point where I was perfectly comfortable with just a thin shell and thinsulate gloves over a T-shirt and sweater in 5 degree Celsius rain today. And really, how often does it rain in California?

Got me there. I already posted my caveat that I am a cold wet weakling. :o It doesn’t rain much where I live now and still if it starts to rain the last thing I think about is going out in it. I will put off going out for two or three days rather than get cold and wet. If I must go out I would rather walk than ride my bike. My Revive does have fenders however so if I had to I could try it. ;)

I have moved to a city in the flatlands or desert area of Southern California. It makes cycling a lot easier than when I lived at the 5000 foot level in the San Bernardino Mountains. But I have been considering an EV for in town driving. Even a GEM would get me anywhere I wanted to go and back and only need charging maybe twice a week. The one thing that has been holding me back is that I can get anywhere I want on my bike, or one of my bikes anyway, so I can keep my old compact and put gas in it about once every 5 or 6 weeks. My wife isn’t going to ride so I have to have something to take her shopping or to doctors appointments. I guess that is the key. Those of us with families have a harder time going car free than we do with car light.

Still if I lived in our snow belt I simply am not interested in riding in the snow and ice. I won’t even make any excuses. It is out of the question.

Still if I lived in our snow belt I simply am not interested in riding in the snow and ice. I won’t even make any excuses. It is out of the question.

I used to share your point of view. I wasn't equipped to go out and I was that interested in cold weather cycling. However, after spending a few weeks without a bike ride, a break in the weather -- no matter how slight -- was enough for me to try a short ride.

As with so many things in life, one thing lead to another. Pretty soon, I was at it every weekend when the streets were clear. Then I bought a pair of studded tires... and nowadays I get out 3-5 days a week, either riding to work or the store...

Never say never!

I used to share your point of view. I wasn't equipped to go out and I was that interested in cold weather cycling. However, after spending a few weeks without a bike ride, a break in the weather -- no matter how slight -- was enough for me to try a short ride.

As with so many things in life, one thing lead to another. Pretty soon, I was at it every weekend when the streets were clear. Then I bought a pair of studded tires... and nowadays I get out 3-5 days a week, either riding to work or the store...

Never say never!

I have been to your State, my wife was from Davenport, and I know you get weeks when you can’t get out. It is rare that I can’t get out and ride for more than a few days. If it were just I the only time I would be driving is when I was on vacation. I love trekking to the 4 corner states and even then I truck along my mountain bike. I have spent a lot of time on the Navajo reservations and find their culture fascinating. But with a family there needs to be something other than a shed full of bikes or a Road bike in the bedroom. Still if I ever buy another 4-wheel vehicle I believe an EV is a good option for me. There is a company in Vista California building an EV that can go on the freeway and get 100 miles a charge. They start at 25k and should fit my needs till I can no longer drive or ride.

I have been to your State, my wife was from Davenport, and I know you get weeks when you can’t get out. It is rare that I can’t get out and ride for more than a few days. If it were just I the only time I would be driving is when I was on vacation. I love trekking to the 4 corner states and even then I truck along my mountain bike. I have spent a lot of time on the Navajo reservations and find their culture fascinating. But with a family there needs to be something other than a shed full of bikes or a Road bike in the bedroom. Still if I ever buy another 4-wheel vehicle I believe an EV is a good option for me. There is a company in Vista California building an EV that can go on the freeway and get 100 miles a charge. They start at 25k and should fit my needs till I can no longer drive or ride.

So many of your posts are about your motoring experiences. I would be so much more interested in learning about your carfree experiences. :)

BTW, I live in a northern state, and there is never a time that I "can't get out."

So many of your posts are about your motoring experiences. I would be so much more interested in learning about your carfree experiences. :)

BTW, I live in a northern state, and there is never a time that I "can't get out."

I am sorry . Can you point me to where I mentioned I was car free? If I did I didn't mean to. I do put more miles on my bike than my car now but I am not car free and I could have sworn this was about living car free verses auto ownership. When I was in college you had to talk about both subjects to compare. Last time I checked you can't have a debate with only one side of a discussion. :D

But so you will know. I have reduced my driving from 25K miles a year to less than 8k. And if the rate I have been going in the first two months continues I will reduce my driving again this year. ;)

Still if I lived in our snow belt I simply am not interested in riding in the snow and ice. I won’t even make any excuses. It is out of the question.

No one is forced to live in the snow belt, desert, or in an exurb 60 miles from their place of employment - but it sure is the convenient excuse for why someone has to drive. Why people are compelled to excuse their decisions is beyond me. It should be understood that people who don't ride don't want to. Any explanation beyond that seems pretty disingenuous




When I was in college you had to talk about both subjects to compare. Last time I checked you can't have a debate with only one side of a discussion.

This is a debate forum? This is one of the reasons I stopped coming in here as much after I sold my car. The high number of posts talking about cars, why you have to own a car, and all the good reasons to have a car, and the gas price on a given day just get old. I live on the edge of a town with little mass transit and no bike lanes. It bugs me, but at the same time, I know that any time I wanted to I could move downtown, or cross country to eliminate these issues.

One of the complaints from outsiders is that this forum is seen as evangelizing car-free. Well, it's hard not to when there's a steady stream of people coming through advocating car ownership. It's akin to going into the road forum and seeing 50 threads about how great downhill skiing is, and constantly tracking the price of lift tickets or ski wax. It's irrelevant and would fall firmly into the trolling category on most forums.

Although I quoted you twice, I'm making more of a general rant than one targeted at your or your riding/driving habits.

I am sorry . Can you point me to where I mentioned I was car free?
Nor can you point to where I said you are carfree. I referred to your "carfree experiences." I assume you've had those, even if you own a dozen cars, or else you would not be visiting this forum.



But so you will know. I have reduced my driving from 25K miles a year to less than 8k. And if the rate I have been going in the first two months continues I will reduce my driving again this year. ;)
And I'm much more interested in how you've accomplished this, or why, rather than learning about your car trips to Utah, be it in an EV or a GEM (whatever those are). Apparently you ruled out going to Utah on a touring bike (or a train), but you mentioned that you took a mountain bike with you. I'd rather hear about that than the car trip. Sorry, but like JeffS, I think the car tales are getting a little heavy on this forum lately. Not just you, or even mainly you, but in general.

Nor can you point to where I said you are carfree. I referred to your "carfree experiences." I assume you've had those, even if you own a dozen cars, or else you would not be visiting this forum.


Once again, sorry. I guess I took the title of the forum too literally. I'll give general cycling a try.

One of the complaints from outsiders is that this forum is seen as evangelizing car-free. Well, it's hard not to when there's a steady stream of people coming through advocating car ownership. It's akin to going into the road forum and seeing 50 threads about how great downhill skiing is, and constantly tracking the price of lift tickets or ski wax. It's irrelevant and would fall firmly into the trolling category on most forums.

Although I quoted you twice, I'm making more of a general rant than one targeted at your or your riding/driving habits.

I think your view is cloudy about who is posting the steady stream of posts about car ownership. It seems the bulk of the posts are about the disadvantages and costs (both to the individual and to society) of owning and/or using a motor vehicle for any purpose when a bicycle might have been used (even if the temperature or distance is extreme) by a healthy car free zealot and is from the usual proselytizers for the better life of car free. Also associated with such posts are the gratuitous insults and rants about the fat lazy Americans who have not experienced the same epiphany about the evils of car ownership as the enlightened car free zealots.

I think your view is cloudy about who is posting the steady stream of posts about car ownership. It seems the bulk of the posts are about the disadvantages and costs (both to the individual and to society) of owning and/or using a motor vehicle for any purpose when a bicycle might have been used (even if the temperature or distance is extreme) by a healthy car free zealot and is from the usual proselytizers for the better life of car free. Also associated with such posts are the gratuitous insults and rants about the fat lazy Americans who have not experienced the same epiphany about the evils of car ownership as the enlightened car free zealots.

Seriously, you don't seem to have a great interest in talking about cars, or at least I have never known you to go off-topic in that direction. And you're always ragging on others who you think are off-topic. So don't you ever get a little tired of the many posts we've seen that are about the wonders of car ownership, sometimes posted by car zealots? It seems hypocritical to decry carfree posters as being out of order on a carfree forum, while you praise others who post repeatedly about the greatness of automobiles.

Seriously, you don't seem to have a great interest in talking about cars, or at least I have never known you to go off-topic in that direction. And you're always ragging on others who you think are off-topic. So don't you ever get a little tired of the many posts we've seen that are about the wonders of car ownership, sometimes posted by car zealots? It seems hypocritical to decry carfree posters as being out of order on a carfree forum, while you praise others who post repeatedly about the greatness of automobiles.

Really Roody, how many such posters are there on this list who "post repeatedly about the greatness of automobiles?" You seem to be confusing the responses of people (usually car-lite) who are not overcome by dogma and wishful thinking, to the LCF zealots (who post foolish threads/rants about how almost everyone could/should go car free and are negligent, foolish, selfish, fat and/or lazy if they don't) with attempts to promote the greatness of automobiles. Those responses are usually attempts to provide clarity to the simple minded threads started with oversimplifications about the practicality of a bicycle replacing the automobile as the principal source of transportation for American families.

Such sanctimonious transportation advice for the general public is usually offered up by the LCF types who fit a narrow profile of the general public: unmarried, without dependents, especially children of school age, usually healthy, who live in urban areas serviced by public transportation systems.

Really Roody, how many such posters are there on this list who "post repeatedly about the greatness of automobiles?" You seem to be confusing the responses of people (usually car-lite) who are not overcome by dogma and wishful thinking, to the LCF zealots (who post foolish threads/rants about how almost everyone could/should go car free and are negligent, foolish, selfish, fat and/or lazy if they don't) with attempts to promote the greatness of automobiles. Those responses are usually attempts to provide clarity to the simple minded threads started with oversimplifications about the practicality of a bicycle replacing the automobile as the principal source of transportation for American families.

Such sanctimonious transportation advice for the general public is usually offered up by the LCF types who fit a narrow profile of the general public: unmarried, without dependents, especially children of school age, usually healthy, who live in urban areas serviced by public transportation systems.

True enough, but it's also important to dream the world we want, even if we're stuck existing in the world that we actually have.

And is it asking too much to want most examples, anecdotes and illustrations in LCF posts to relate to being carfree and relying on a bicycle, rather than extolling the supposed superiority of automobiles?

Finally, advice on this forum is NOT offered to the general public. It's offered to people who are at the very least open to having more carfree experiences.

And is it asking too much to want most examples, anecdotes and illustrations in LCF posts to relate to being carfree and relying on a bicycle, rather than extolling the supposed superiority of automobiles?

Certainly not too much to ask and would be most welcome. This list could use a lot more posts like you wish and a lot less of the "cager" baiting, counter culture ranting, and sophomoric economic theorizing that passes for examples, anecdotes and illustrations of LCF.

Finally, advice on this forum is NOT offered to the general public. It's offered to people who are at the very least open to having more carfree experiences.

Worth repeating.

Certainly not too much to ask and would be most welcome. This list could use a lot more posts like you wish and a lot less of the "cager" baiting, counter culture ranting, and sophomoric economic theorizing that passes for examples, anecdotes and illustrations of LCF.

We should probably aim for a "happy medium" in our overall presentation. IMO the main tone of the forum should be the virtues of being carfree, but an honest admission of the difficulties and shortfallings is also in order. A discussion of the virtues of car ownership, IMO, is entirely out of order here. There are many good automobile forums on the Web, but this is the only one, AFAIK, about carfree living that also contains a main component of bikes and cycling.

Sophomoric economic theorizing? I have to call you on that one. The problems of the credit boom and fiscal irresponsibility were discussed here years ago--long before the pundits and "economic experts" started worrying about these issues. If Allen Greenspan had followed this forum, we wouldn't be in this mess today! ;)

No one is forced to live in the snow belt, desert, or in an exurb 60 miles from their place of employment - but it sure is the convenient excuse for why someone has to drive. Why people are compelled to excuse their decisions is beyond me. It should be understood that people who don't ride don't want to. Any explanation beyond that seems pretty disingenuous

Although I quoted you twice, I'm making more of a general rant than one targeted at your or your riding/driving habits.

Generally I can see your point. However there is often more to life than a Nike slogan. Just do it works for some and not for others. For instance what kind of job allows people to simply drop everything and move closer to work?

I only know of a few jobs that let you sell one house and move into another simply because the second house is closer to where they want to work than another. Many people I run with picked where they live based on the schools their kids would go to. For some that isn’t a consideration. But yes it is a choice between a comfortable single family dwelling in a nice neighborhood and maybe a less desirable house in a less desirable neighborhood but close enough to work to make riding a bike a good option.

I have been close to car free more than once in my life and I know the choices that have to be made to commute to work and do your shopping without a car. So it is for that reason I was interested in the topic car free verse auto ownership. Maybe there aren’t any other considerations in your life that come before the car free lifestyle but for many of us there are still questions we have to answer.

I already stated that if it were just I then more than likely I would be very car light. But if you were like me and have a family and there are medical considerations just do it is harder to say isn’t it? Sometimes life comes down to ideology verses reality.

I understand needing to rant however. :)

My only suggestion, if you "have" to live someplace where you can't be carfree, is to do what you can to change the environment. For example, work toward getting better public transit in your community, or even better, some kind of infrastructure that you would feel comfortable riding a bike on. As a stopgap, car pooling to work would be much better than doing nothing. Or ask your employer about working 12 hour shifts so that you only have to commute 3 days a week instead of 5.

I know these are pretty unsatisfactory ideas because they don't help you at all in the short run. But one can only do what one can do.

Meanwhile, ask yourself if you're really happy in a situation where you "must" have a car that you don't want. If you're really not that happy with the way things are, you might want to make sacrifices in other areas in order to be carfree. (Or not. It's your call.)

Overall, I think I'd rather walk than drive or ride. :innocent:

I'd rather walk on icy days, too. My commute to work is only 2.25 miles, so if it's icy, the walk isn't much of a hardship. Heck, sometimes I walk even if it's not icy, just because I feel like it. If it's really bad out, and I have to go more than 3 miles, I use public transportation. When I had a car, I hated ice more than I do now, because a car slides around on ice as much as anything else, and, as Lamplight says, when a car hits things, it's expensive.

I'd get studded tires for my bike if I lived in a place that had harsh winters, but here in Seattle, it's not icy often enough to justify it.

Nor can you point to where I said you are carfree. I referred to your "carfree experiences." I assume you've had those, even if you own a dozen cars, or else you would not be visiting this forum.



And I'm much more interested in how you've accomplished this, or why, rather than learning about your car trips to Utah, be it in an EV or a GEM (whatever those are). Apparently you ruled out going to Utah on a touring bike (or a train), but you mentioned that you took a mountain bike with you. I'd rather hear about that than the car trip. Sorry, but like JeffS, I think the car tales are getting a little heavy on this forum lately. Not just you, or even mainly you, but in general.

I think we should all go easy on people who disagree with one's point of view. I think such intolerance is probably the reason that 90% of the posts in the LCF forum are made by the same 12 people. We should welcome debate rather than try to discourage it.

After you evolve to the point where bicycling is a major part of your life, you'll find yourself chipping away at the 25%.

That's how I got to 75% I started out a year ago just riding once or twice a week. I started in February with the goal of riding to work 50 times over the rest of the year. I went way past that.

On the one hand, I have this grand romantic notion of getting rid of the car and going totally car free (my wife, of course, will still have a car, so maybe not *that* car free).

On the other, work is very interesting right now, and that may or may not be in the good sense of the word. It's one of those "opportunity" situations, where I might advance significantly in the next several months, or things could blow up on me. I don't always have the time for bicycle commuting; have to be at meetings at the right time, professionally attired (and not all sweaty!)

Also, the number one reason why I bike is because I like it. Part of the reason I like it is that it is a treat, not a chore. There have been a few times when it started to approach choredom and I stayed away for a week, a few days, whatever, until I wanted to ride again.

I mean it's great that cycle riding is fashionable and green and all that, but frankly, none of those are the reasons why I ride. I just like to ride.

I think the most likely outcome down the road is that I will continue to own a small economy car, but cycle for my daily routine.

I think we should all go easy on people who disagree with one's point of view. I think such intolerance is probably the reason that 90% of the posts in the LCF forum are made by the same 12 people. We should welcome debate rather than try to discourage it.

You're right. I apologize to Robert Foster. And I love a good debate more than almost anybody I know--sometimes too much.

However I stand by what I said that I personally prefer to read about bikes and carfree experiences, rather than discussions about cars that are rather frequent around here lately. But I don't mean to be censoring anybody, and I especially don't want to make good posters like Robert Foster feel unwelcome.

I love you Robert Foster, even if I almost always disagree with you! :love:

On the other, work is very interesting right now, and that may or may not be in the good sense of the word. It's one of those "opportunity" situations, where I might advance significantly in the next several months, or things could blow up on me. I don't always have the time for bicycle commuting; have to be at meetings at the right time, professionally attired (and not all sweaty!)

Also, the number one reason why I bike is because I like it. Part of the reason I like it is that it is a treat, not a chore. There have been a few times when it started to approach choredom and I stayed away for a week, a few days, whatever, until I wanted to ride again.


It sounds like a stressful period for you. I wonder if the bike riding is helping to make the stress more manageable. Exercise and fun are two of the best stress busters for me, it's nice how cycling puts them together.

I know what you mean about riding being a chore sometimes. But for me, usually once I get in the saddle and go a few blocks, the fun takes over even as I'm getting the chore done.

My only suggestion, if you "have" to live someplace where you can't be carfree, is to do what you can to change the environment. For example, work toward getting better public transit in your community, or even better, some kind of infrastructure that you would feel comfortable riding a bike on. As a stopgap, car pooling to work would be much better than doing nothing. Or ask your employer about working 12 hour shifts so that you only have to commute 3 days a week instead of 5.

I know these are pretty unsatisfactory ideas because they don't help you at all in the short run. But one can only do what one can do.

Meanwhile, ask yourself if you're really happy in a situation where you "must" have a car that you don't want. If you're really not that happy with the way things are, you might want to make sacrifices in other areas in order to be carfree. (Or not. It's your call.)

No the ideas have merit. It is simply that they don’t address the issue as many Americans see it. The concept of being a father and a husband and a provider go beyond the simple answer of, darn the torpedoes, full speed ahead.

I have car-pooled and bike commuted and written my congressman about the lack of public transportation in my state. But ,when it all comes down to it, the sacrifices I decide to make effect more than just me they affect my family.

If you have a chance to take a job that allows you to buy a house, allows your wife to stop working to stay home and raise the kids. Move to a neighborhood with good schools and a low crime rate the decision is not as simple as saying you would rather live in a rented house and a questionable school district.

Now I have switched gears again and I can leave the car at home and ride my bike or bikes just about everywhere. The last year I worked I was putting close to 25k a year on my vehicle. The job paid for my fuel so there was no reason to look for another means of transportation. Last month I looked at my mileage and from April to February of this year I have put on less than 6500 miles. I expect to put that many miles on my bike this year.

If you have a chance to take a job that allows you to buy a house, allows your wife to stop working to stay home and raise the kids. Move to a neighborhood with good schools and a low crime rate the decision is not as simple as saying you would rather live in a rented house and a questionable school district.
I think many people have more than two choices of squalor or suburbia. Most bigger cities have nice central neighborhoods with big old houses, lots of trees and a strong sense of community. And smaller cities or towns can be great for being carfree of carlight also. Most city schools are good until high school, and then there's private and parochial schools.


Now I have switched gears again and I can leave the car at home and ride my bike or bikes just about everywhere. The last year I worked I was putting close to 25k a year on my vehicle. The job paid for my fuel so there was no reason to look for another means of transportation. Last month I looked at my mileage and from April to February of this year I have put on less than 6500 miles. I expect to put that many miles on my bike this year.

That puts you well under the average of 10,000 miles per year. Like somebody else said, the next step is to whittle it down a little more from there.

I agree with the 75% thing as well. However, for me it became clear that I could make the biggest financial gains by just taking the dive and slicing off the last 25% all together. Not driving a car that you own helps save gas and wear and tear but does little to reduce your insurance, car payments, parking fees, trips to the DMV, car payments, ect... Like others have said, for me, keeping a car around to use once or twice a month didnt make sense.

I feel like I have some times stepped on some of the other posters toes in this forum. I too do not want to look down my nose at other peoples decisions. I too like to debate... a little too much. I prefer to live in big cities near transit with GOOD neighborhoods rather than live in the burbs where everything is spread out. This decision is not solely because I want to be car-free it is based on a lot of decision that in-fact do effect other people than just me.

I would love to see more posts on this forum from car-free families which do exist despite the skepticism. Hmmm if I had kids and a family.... Maybe sharing one car would be ok but I would still strive for car-free. I understand the whole "I am a father and I need to look like I provide for my kids" attitude but I just dont see how that has anything to do with owning or not owning a car. I think that some people, not anyone in aprticualr, throw up their hands and just say its too hard. The fact of the matter is that a lot of single people think its impossible until they try it. Families just dont make the plunge to try it as readily as us singles. Also, even with a family I see no reason to purchase a home and become tied down to the point where I can not move closer to work if I feel like it.

Instead of just saying that your family relies on you owning a car and what not, why not ask if there are some ways that you could over come the difficulties on being in a big family with no car? Thats what this forum is really for isnt it? If living in the "inner city" causes bad schools (which I dont believe) then maybe you could use some of the money you save by not buying a car to send them to private school? Maybe we could all learn to shrug off the cultural value that we place on home owner ship and see that in many ways owing a home and owning a car actually make you less-free rather than making you somehow more independent?

They are just different points of view that I happen to believe in very strongly, so do a lot of people on this forum. I dont think that anyone is trying to be evangelical, just taking a stand on an issue in order to have a fun debate.

I would love to see more posts on this forum from car-free families which do exist despite the skepticism. Hmmm if I had kids and a family.... Maybe sharing one car would be ok but I would still strive for car-free. I understand the whole "I am a father and I need to look like I provide for my kids" attitude but I just dont see how that has anything to do with owning or not owning a car. I think that some people, not anyone in aprticualr, throw up their hands and just say its too hard. The fact of the matter is that a lot of single people think its impossible until they try it. Families just dont make the plunge to try it as readily as us singles. Also, even with a family I see no reason to purchase a home and become tied down to the point where I can not move closer to work if I feel like it.

Instead of just saying that your family relies on you owning a car and what not, why not ask if there are some ways that you could over come the difficulties on being in a big family with no car? Thats what this forum is really for isnt it? If living in the "inner city" causes bad schools (which I dont believe) then maybe you could use some of the money you save by not buying a car to send them to private school? Maybe we could all learn to shrug off the cultural value that we place on home owner ship and see that in many ways owing a home and owning a car actually make you less-free rather than making you somehow more independent?

They are just different points of view that I happen to believe in very strongly, so do a lot of people on this forum. I dont think that anyone is trying to be evangelical, just taking a stand on an issue in order to have a fun debate.

I didn’t come into this forum to say I couldn’t see how someone could be car free. I came to see how some did it and what had to be given up or not. Some things are cultural or at least traditional in some societies and they provide a sense of security. As an example lets say you are doing a study of your personal ancestry and you discover that every generation on your family had a house starting in 1740 when they got here from England and Germany.

You would conclude it was normal to have a place to live that you could call your own. I believe that becomes the stream of normalcy in your carrier planning at least for the majority enjoying what we refer to the American life style. Even in portions of China the land was one of the few things the people were willing to die for. In the US owning a home was considered an investment for the future. For most people the statement that you couldn’t lose if you invested in property became a mantra. For those that got in for the quick money it became a pit fall. But still all in all it has allowed someone like me to pay off all my bills. I don’t use credit cards. I don’t have a house payment and I don’t pay rent. All because of long range planning and the fact I got out of the system before it totally fell so you might call it luck. I don’t have to worry about someone raising the rent on me in later years when I have to live on a fixed income.

But some would be correct in saying there are drawbacks. I did believe I had to commute long distances so I could afford to get into the position I am today. There were times I used the extra income to send my children to private schools. Until it wasn’t necessary because we lived close to one of the best public high schools in the area. Now what my children do with the education is up to them. The other draw back is I live where public transportation is almost worthless.

So for the two points I outlined in red in your post. Yes I could pass up on investing in a home and today I would be paying rent. It was a sacrifice I could have made to be car free but I didn’t. And it is more than just saying my family relies on me it was a decision that allowed my wife to stay at home as a more traditional family for at least half of the child rearing age. It has provided a home for my family even if something happens to me. It is only that comparison I was making with the car free life verses owning a car. I often wonder if I had made a different decision would I be in the same position I am today?

But it is only now that I am free to consider alternatives to the car culture and I have been working on it. But without the infrastructure to support mass transit it is harder than just ordering up a cab now and then.

I'm missing something. What does owning a house have to do with whether you own a car?

I'm missing something. What does owning a house have to do with whether you own a car?

Oh, that was from taking the promotions that allowed me to move to a better neighborhood. Then the additional promotions allowed me to buy a better house in an even better neighborhood. During the time it was called a property ladder. One of my promotions required that I commute from Orange County to the edge of Compton. Housing in LA were prohibitive and living in Compton just wasn’t an option.

Selling a house in Orange County allowed me to buy a bigger house for less money in the Inland Empire. The commute was longer and so I commuter by Motorcycle for over 8 years. Another promotion with another company and I was able to buy a place in the Mountains near a better school and though a bit smaller home one in a nicer community. Once were had an empty nest we could start planning for selling the mountain home and moving to our place in the desert. It was that investment that allowed me to retire early and bank some of the money the house had earned.

That seems to be pretty much what I was always taught society believed was the American dream. I only worry about the economy dulling the edge of that dream. Still it is only now that I have been able to turn my attention on something other than a carrier and raising a family. I will admit I could have bought into a system that had its flaws. But I wonder what the personal rewards might have been had I taken the road some of the car free people have taken so I came here to see.

Then it is possible what happened or what I did isn’t germane anymore and only what I can do now is.