Classic & Vintage - Not Another Rust Thread - OK it is one...

Thought I would post a few pictures from my current oxalic acid rust campaign. I saved up about six bikes, so I will be treating parts for the next couple of weeks. The campaign starts with my kiddie pool, direct from the local Xmart store. Added almost 20 oz of Oxalic crystals from Sherwin Williams (they come in 12 oz tubs, so I used a little over 1 1/2 tubs). The first pic shows the pool in action. I have a homemade dam in the pool, as it is a little bigger than I need. I then have a few pictures of steel/chrome rims from a recent garage sale purchase, a 1971 Schwinn Racer. I think the transformation speaks for itself. One thing I really like about oxalic is that it does all the work for you. You just set it in the bath, leave it, pull it out later, neutralize with baking soda, rinse it off and wax it.

Be sure to read all of the safety warnings on oxalic, and be sure to protect your hands and eyes!

But no scrubbing, rubbing, no abrasives, no nothing, just time. This wheel sat in the bath for 2 days.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3599/3307365009_1e1b949dce_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3330/3315033842_22c5ccf684_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3414/3315034254_fc7c6f2101_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3462/3315034056_79afc95497_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3481/3315033934_d58397fe08_o.jpg

How did the frame cope? Any effect on the paint?

I have never had paint or decals affected in any way. It will attack aluminum, so you need to strip the bike down. You will notice I pulled the axle and bearings on the wheel. Don't want to mix acid with your bearings.

I have used oxalic on several bikes, this will be my largest single campaign (more efficient than doing piecemeal).

I soaked this frame in oxalic acid for 1.5 days, The paint and decals came out beautiful after a baking soda path, polish and wax.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30894973@N04/3242037654/sizes/o/http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3106/3242037654_65277b1c5a_o.jpg

What happens to your bath water when you are finished? I'm assuming you can't throw it down the sink.

That wheel came out near perfect. Does the acid (adversely) affect the zinc finish on non-stainless spokes? How do you neutralise the oxalic solution inside frame tubes and especially stays ad fork legs? -Or do you plug up those little expansion holes with cocktail sticks?

I tried this out on a micro scale on a rusty steel seat binder clamp and bolt in a small plastic tub. It came out totally rust free with a clean, completely rust free but dull finish that polished up like chrome. I'm hoping to try bigger projects as soon as I can buy some Oxalic crystals in bulk. Does the solution corrode aluminium?

Would appreciate the benefit of oyhers experience to avoid costly and disappointing mistakes!

I don't plug any holes. I want the solution to go inside these tubes, to deal with any rust there as well. I make up a bucket/trash can of baking soda/water, and immerse the fork in that (first draining the acid out into the acid bath). For the frame, I pour baking soda solution down all the tubes, draining it into the same bucket. You are just neutralizing it, so it is real quick. Then rinse it, blow it out with air, and frame save it immediately.

The oxalic helped clean up the spokes as well, as they had some rust too.

Without the oxalic, I would be tossing these rims for sure. The fenders turned out even better, ditto the Schwinn cranks.

I don't plug any holes. I want the solution to go inside these tubes, to deal with any rust there as well. I make up a bucket/trash can of baking soda/water, and immerse the fork in that (first draining the acid out into the acid bath). For the frame, I pour baking soda solution down all the tubes, draining it into the same bucket. You are just neutralizing it, so it is real quick. Then rinse it, blow it out with air, and frame save it immediately.

The oxalic helped clean up the spokes as well, as they had some rust too.

Without the oxalic, I would be tossing these rims for sure. The fenders turned out even better, ditto the Schwinn cranks.

Thanks Bill, that's really helped to clarify how to do it. Much obliged.

It will attack aluminum, so you need to strip the bike down. You will notice I pulled the axle and bearings on the wheel. Don't want to mix acid with your bearings.

After pulling the axle and the bearings, did you immerse the wheel hub and all, or did you just immerse the rim and rotate it periodically to treat the whole circumference? What would you do about an aluminum headbadge? If it's a nice one and original it's a shame to have to drill out the original rivets. Perhaps you could cover it with grease or liquid mask?
jv

After pulling the axle and the bearings, did you immerse the wheel hub and all, or did you just immerse the rim and rotate it periodically to treat the whole circumference? What would you do about an aluminum headbadge? If it's a nice one and original it's a shame to have to drill out the original rivets. Perhaps you could cover it with grease or liquid mask?
jv

I immersed the whole wheel after pulling the axle and bearings of course. Note, this wheel has a steel hub.

On the headbadge, I leave them in place. I am not recommending it, as over time, the oxalic will eat the aluminum.

If you look at the pic of my kiddie pool, you will notice a small plastic container to the right of the pool. I use that for small parts, easier to keep track of them.

OK, I'm hooked. My stealth Velo Cheapo project is getting the Oxy treatment.

And now we know what happens to the moonshine that doesn't cook right in them thar hills.

Wow. Nicely done.

What happens to your bath water when you are finished? I'm assuming you can't throw it down the sink.

This notice from a British source seems to say that even in heavy solutions, it should be biodegradable.
http://www.chem-distribution.com/MSDS/OXALIC%20ACID%20MSDS.pdf
(http://www.chem-distribution.com/MSDS/OXALIC%20ACID%20MSDS.pdf)

So maybe you can throw it down the drain. Or use it to water your lawn.

Does anyone know any different?

What happens to your bath water when you are finished? I'm assuming you can't throw it down the sink.
Oxalic acid is biodegradable.

is oxalic acid effective in below freezing temperature ? will it freeze ? I have a frame and 6 wheels that could REALLY use that treatment! (plus 99.9% of the parts of an old italian iron!)

+1. I've become a big believer in oxalic acid for parts large and small. Watch the aluminum and zinc coated steel, though. Oxalic acid occurs naturally in the environment, even in some veggies you eat, I wouldn't worry a whole lot about pouring it out. As for paint/decals, just seems to clean them up. Use in a well-ventilated area.

Acids, like many chemical reactions, tend to work faster w/heat. Conversely, they work slower in cold. Just about anything will freeze given a low enough temperature, and this applies to oxalic acid solution. The exact freezing point will be determined by the strength of your solution.

What happens to your bath water when you are finished? I'm assuming you can't throw it down the sink.

Do you guys ever re-use the mixture?? Just wondering. Because of this thread, I'm going to have to keep a bike I was initially going to toss and try this out.

yeah, I have an old coffee can with some oxalic acid that has been around for a while.

Cool - but how does that affect the steel? Does it make it weaker?

hello,

this is a great thread, im wondering how the baking soda solution is done? do you just mix the baking soda with water to make a thick solution, or do you go quite thin with it?


thank you

I also was wondering exactly what proportion of baking soda to water is correct for neutralizing the oxalic acid solution. I had my gears, RD, chain and other miscellaneous parts sitting in a bucket of acid solution for over a week. It did not neutralize all the rust, and worse, I think there is a greasy residue over everything, probably lifted by the acid from the gears and spread all over everything.

Earlier this winter I did attempt to use the oxalic acid solution outdoors in my garage and it did begin to freeze at temps around 20 F or under. The solution turned to a gel. I brought it indoors before it froze over completely.

HOLY shnikes I'm defintely going to use this for my px10 project

To neutralize an acid - including oxalic - the use of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) makes it simple. you see: It fizzes. When you sprinkle some in to the acid, it gives off carbon dioxide gas - causing it to 'fizz.' Like an Alka-Seltzer tablet. After you add some, stir it around. Add more and watch it fizz - stir. Ad more. Fizz. Stir.

When you get no more fizz, she is done. But be careful still - you now have a solution containing sodium oxalate - which is also very poisonous to people and pets. Pour down the drain with plenty of water to chase it. It will biodegrade harmlessly. Rinse everything several times.

One comment on disposal: the oxalic acid you buy is commonly sold as deck wash. If you wash your deck, where does the solution go?

As far as reusing the solution, I will be reusing it at least six times, doing six different bikes, misc parts, etc. In the past, I have kept a couple of gallons that I reused dozens of times treating small parts. I will probably keep a gallon or two of this solution as well. Its good for those miscellanous fasteners, or an occasional chrome fork. I have used a tall kitchen trash can to treat a fork, it is pretty much the perfect height.

On the baking soda, I just make a solution of it, buy baking soda by the pound at Walmart. Since almost all of the oxalic acid has been drained off the part prior to neutralization, its not like you are neutralizing the entire kiddie pool. I immerse small parts in a bucket of baking soda solution, I also pour it down frame tubes and over the bike frame in general. I then give the part a quick rinse, and wax chrome parts, and framesave the forks and frame.

After pulling the axle and the bearings, did you immerse the wheel hub and all, or did you just immerse the rim and rotate it periodically to treat the whole circumference? What would you do about an aluminum headbadge? If it's a nice one and original it's a shame to have to drill out the original rivets. Perhaps you could cover it with grease or liquid mask?
jv

So if your vintage bike has a aluminum headbadge with rivets you wouldn't recommend using this acid solution right?

So if your vintage bike has a aluminum headbadge with rivets you wouldn't recommend using this acid solution right?
What you do is up to you. Myself, I immerse the entire frame, but don't leave it in too long (1 day or less).

You can of course remove the headbadge first, which is certainly the safest option. I had one headbadge left in the solution for several days, and while it is OK, you can see some signs of pitting.

I'm kind of wishing I had done this to my super sport before I built it back up

I bought one container 12 oz from sherwin williams, I was wondering how much water solution I should mix in with it, it says 1 gallon of hot water should do it but your solution looks like it has more than that

I bought one container 12 oz from sherwin williams, I was wondering how much water solution I should mix in with it, it says 1 gallon of hot water should do it but your solution looks like it has more than that

My solution is much more dilute than that, I used about a container and a half of the Sherwin Williams stuff (approx 18 ounces) in a decent size kiddie pool (many gallons, many as much as 20 gallons).

My solution is much more dilute than that, I used about a container and a half of the Sherwin Williams stuff (approx 18 ounces) in a decent size kiddie pool (many gallons, many as much as 20 gallons).

I'm only using the solution for the frame and fork so is one container enough or should I get another? So acording to your mixture it's roughly 1 ounce wood bleah for 1 gallon of water plus a little more? So I should have thirteen gallons roughly? ALso is it hot water or cold water?

Wish I hadn't seen this... as soon as I picked up an 84' peugeot. Is it safe to leave the wheel tape on, or should it be removed? Thanks in advance, and thanks for this info.

Take it off and pick up some Velox

Velox?

Edit: found it... well I was kind of wanting to keep the origional.. since it has been on there 24 years. Just seems wrong to replace it. Will the acid hurt it ?

I guess I don't really know but I would imagine that I might have an effect on the 24 yo glue. I was assuming and we all know what that does, maybe somebody will chime in that knows better than I.

guess I will have to sacrifice the tape. Thanks for all the info!

Remove the rim tape, along with the axle, any quick release, bearings and freewheel/cassette. Also, if the hub or rim is alloy, forget about it. The oxalic will attack aluminum.

The problem with the solution strength is not the number of parts you treat, but the size of the pool. You will notice in my original picture that I have a wood dam in the pool to make it smaller (conserve on solution). I looked at a smaller kiddie pool, but unfortunately, it did not have a big enough diameter to fit a frame. Any decent sized frame (medium or larger) will require the larger kiddie pool. Or you can make a frame out of wood, and just use a tarp for the pool.

I like the security of the pool (no leaks) as I am doing this treatment inside my workshop. And I keep the solution for a while (several weeks) as I disassemble multiple bikes in my spare time, treat them, rebuild them, and treat the next one.

As far as water, you need hot water to dissolve the oxalic. I parked my kiddie pool right next to the hot water heater, so I just fill it directly from the water heater.

Just to complete the thread, I am adding a picture of the finished bike (the one that was soaking in the first pic).

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3375/3333142941_0c9fe9b2e6_o.jpg

Remove the rim tape, along with the axle, any quick release, bearings and freewheel/cassette. Also, if the hub or rim is alloy, forget about it. The oxalic will attack aluminum.

The problem with the solution strength is not the number of parts you treat, but the size of the pool. You will notice in my original picture that I have a wood dam in the pool to make it smaller (conserve on solution). I looked at a smaller kiddie pool, but unfortunately, it did not have a big enough diameter to fit a frame. Any decent sized frame (medium or larger) will require the larger kiddie pool. Or you can make a frame out of wood, and just use a tarp for the pool.

I like the security of the pool (no leaks) as I am doing this treatment inside my workshop. And I keep the solution for a while (several weeks) as I disassemble multiple bikes in my spare time, treat them, rebuild them, and treat the next one.

As far as water, you need hot water to dissolve the oxalic. I parked my kiddie pool right next to the hot water heater, so I just fill it directly from the water heater.

Just to complete the thread, I am adding a picture of the finished bike (the one that was soaking in the first pic).

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3375/3333142941_0c9fe9b2e6_o.jpg
ok thanks again will post some pics as soon as im done with the project.

Ok, another dumb question. How can I tell if my hubs are aluminum or steel? Sorry, this is my first bike tear down/build up. thanks

^^When in doubt, a magnet.
Eventually, you can visually discern between the two.

Messing around with old steel rims is rarely worth it. I only did it to keep my old Schwinn Racer period correct. If I was putting together a bike to ride, I would either pick up a donor bike with nice alloy wheels, or buy the cheap ones sold by Niagara for under $30 each (see the other thread on that one).

Messing around with old steel rims is rarely worth it.

It is for flippers. If they are salvageable within reasonable parameters, I'll make 'em right and put 'em back on. The campus/path crowd does not care if the wheels are steel or not.

My solution is much more dilute than that, I used about a container and a half of the Sherwin Williams stuff (approx 18 ounces) in a decent size kiddie pool (many gallons, many as much as 20 gallons).
Judging from the photo, I'd say that's much more than 20 gallons--more like 50. Hard to tell without measuring. But you could figure it out easily enough--a cubic foot is 7.5 gallons. Just figure out the volume and multiply.
JV

by the way-----some safety details about oxalic acid:

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/o6044.htm

by the way-----some safety details about oxalic acid:

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/o6044.htm

Good MSDS but readers should note that is for the crystals (full strength). You should respect the dilute solution as well.

Here is a MSDS for one of the commercial oxalic acid deck wash solutions. Of course, when handling the concentrated beads, the MSDS above is applicable.

http://www.cleanandstrip.com/dwpmsds.pdf

Messing around with old steel rims is rarely worth it. I only did it to keep my old Schwinn Racer period correct. If I was putting together a bike to ride, I would either pick up a donor bike with nice alloy wheels, or buy the cheap ones sold by Niagara for under $30 each (see the other thread on that one).

Search is broken. A link to the Niagara 27" bit, perhaps?

Search is broken. A link to the Niagara 27" bit, perhaps?


Exactly. Niagara sells wheels with alloy rims, quick release skewers, and stainless spokes for around $25 each. Those would be a nice upgrade to a steel rimmed bike for sure. $26.39 for front, $27.59 for rear. They have even cheaper wheels if you want nutted axles and steel spokes. But at this price level, I would not try to save another $3 to $4.

http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=34347

Niagara is also my preferred source for loose ball bearings, low end tires, and non-Aero brake lever hoods.

I get my alloy rim wheels off of donor bikes, which is an even cheaper option. But if I ran out of donors (I am close), I would go the Niagara route.

I bought some Zuds from the local Ace hardware, it was $2.49 i think.

Here's a look at the skewer before and after. The rusty nut had less rust than the lever. I also put some chromed items that were heavily rusty so much so that the chrome was cracking and peeling. The rust looks neutralized but the cracking and peeling are still there. My conclusion is that its not a time machine that takes you back to day 1 of the part's life. But take a look at that skewer!

I can vouch for the Niagara wheels. (http://www.amazon.com/SBS-Alloy-Freewheel-Silver-Wheel/dp/B000C14KGC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1236902427&sr=1-1) Heavier than what came on my last bike (arayas) but they're fine for a replacement or getting around town.

On another note, has anyone used either rustoleum paint to paint over rust or taped up the paint around a small surface rust patch and used naval jelly? I'm fixing up my gf's bikes and she's got some minor rust going on .....

I use the stuff sold at Walmart in the auto paint section. It is one of the commercial rust converters, about $6 for a bottle. Just paint it directly over the rust, and it will convert it. Once dry, paint over that. It does nothing for internal rust, and is not useful for larger areas, but small areas, it works well. I got the idea from Robbietunes I think.

how much baking soda do I put in the water if I have 15 gallons of water to work with? like 2 pounds or something?