Northern California - Camino Alto Stoplight Sting

I got my first ticket today for not stopping at the right hand turn off of E. Blithedale onto Camino Alto. I was with the trailing group from the Roaster's ride that got stuck at the previous light and was trying to jump back on.

Just watch out. The cops sat there and issued 6 of us tickets and told us that drivers were complaining about cyclist running reds and that we were proof that they needed to issue tickets so cyclists obey that stoplight and others. :(

Steve

I got my first ticket today for not stopping at the right hand turn off of E. Blithedale onto Camino Alto. I was with the trailing group from the Roaster's ride that got stuck at the previous light and was trying to jump back on.

Just watch out. The cops sat there and issued 6 of us tickets and told us that drivers were complaining about cyclist running reds and that we were proof that they needed to issue tickets so cyclists obey that stoplight and others. :(

Steve
Thanks for the info, sorry to hear you got bagged!:(

I blew that turn yesterday..:p

It's kind of a bad intersection where the road is too narrow for a bunch of bikes to stop.

Thanks for the head up, I won't be giving them any money.

That's a sting? I thought a sting would be, like, "hey, I got your discount right-turn-on-red-without-stopping thing right here. Just fell off the back of a truck, if ya' know what I mean." Gotcha!

A ticket for blowing through a red light? You poor thing. :rolleyes:

A ticket for blowing through a red light? You poor thing. :rolleyes:

So you've never turned right on a red light without stopping?

My girlfriend said she saw a guy on a road bike with handcuffs on this morning. Supposedly there were not one but two cop cars on the scene. This was on Alameda de las Pulgas somewhere between Woodside and Valparaiso. I don't know the story but maybe the dude got pulled over for a stop sign or red light violation and then started getting feisty so they cuffed him?

I must admit that my recent commuting by bike has made me ... more willing to "go when it's clear". Guess I might want to abide more closely to the letter of the law now.

I must admit that my recent commuting by bike has made me ... more willing to "go when it's clear". Guess I might want to abide more closely to the letter of the law now.

+1 yeah, since commuting, I've developed the same habits.

+1 yeah, since commuting, I've developed the same habits.

Seriously. I just don't care. Most people who whine and moan are just so unhappy with their miserable lives that they just have to complain about what others do. The vast majority of the time they're just mad that the cyclist in question is breaking an arbitrary law, rather than actually inconveniencing them. Or they remember the ONE time a cyclist blew a stop sign and made them jam on their brakes, so every time they see anyone doing anything illegal they ASSUME that cyclist would be just as likely to run a stop sign if a car was coming.

The laws are there to regulate traffic and keep people safe from a heavy car smashing into another one. The consequences of inattentive driving are much worse than the consequences of inattentive cycling, which is why they force red lights and stop signs on drivers rather than just saying 'be careful'.

As far as I'm concerned, nothing wrong with jaywalking or running lights/stop signs on your bike, if you don't cause anyone any inconvenience.

I am similarly angry as a driver if a pedestrian or cyclist does something illegal that makes me stop/slow down for them, but if I'm a block away, I could care less what they do. Then again, I'm pretty courteous and also strive to drive in a manner that doesn't make people stand on their brakes for me.. even when I'm in a crosswalk if a car is coming I jog slightly so they don't have to wait too long.

A ticket for blowing through a red light? You poor thing. :rolleyes:

There is a HUGE safety difference between:

1) "Blowing through a red light", which I take to mean risking life and limb going through an intersection where cars are flowing from both sides - which is extremely dangerous!
and
2) Slowly making a right turn on red, where you remain within a foot or 2 of the curb and hence no car can possibly hit you and you are going slow enough and have a clear enough view that if there was a pedestrian trying to cross, it would be easy to either stop in time or swerve around him - which is not at all dangerous.
or
3) Slowing to a track stand at a red light, looking both ways, realizing that there are no cars or pedestrians around crossing and that the stupid stoplight is just f'd up and is either on a timer, or has a sensor that does not pick up bicycles, so it is safe to proceed through.

I frequently do 2 and 3, but would never do #1. Unfortunately, the fine for all 3 is the same and all 3 are referred to by people who hate cyclists as "BLOWING THROUGH a red light" when clearly only number 1 really is.

There is a HUGE safety difference between:

1) "Blowing through a red light", which I take to mean risking life and limb going through an intersection where cars are flowing from both sides - which is extremely dangerous!
and
2) Slowly making a right turn on red, where you remain within a foot or 2 of the curb and hence no car can possibly hit you and you are going slow enough and have a clear enough view that if there was a pedestrian trying to cross, it would be easy to either stop in time or swerve around him - which is not at all dangerous.
or
3) Slowing to a track stand at a red light, looking both ways, realizing that there are no cars or pedestrians around crossing and that the stupid stoplight is just f'd up and is either on a timer, or has a sensor that does not pick up bicycles, so it is safe to proceed through.

I frequently do 2 and 3, but would never do #1. Unfortunately, the fine for all 3 is the same and all 3 are referred to by people who hate cyclists as "BLOWING THROUGH a red light" when clearly only number 1 really is.

CA should look to Idaho for some bike laws that make sense:):

"A cyclist approaching a stop sign must “slow down” and “if required for safety, stop before entering the intersection.” The law continues:

After slowing to a reasonable speed or stopping, the person shall yield the right-of-way to any vehicle in the intersection or approaching on another highway so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard during the time the person is moving across or within the intersection or junction of highways, except that a person after slowing to a reasonable speed and yielding the right-of-way if required, may cautiously make a turn or proceed through the intersection without stopping.

This portion of the Idaho law is sometimes referred to as “Stop as yield,” meaning that cyclists may treat stop signs as yield signs. The Idaho law also allows “red as stop,” meaning that cyclists may treat red lights as stop signs:

A person operating a bicycle or human-powered vehicle approaching a steady red traffic control light shall stop before entering the intersection and shall yield to all other traffic. Once the person has yielded, he may proceed through the steady red light with caution."

After stopping for a red light, I will often jump the red light to get a head start (if safe). The timings are so short on some of the lights that I think it's more dangerous to wait for them to turn green as you will get caught in the middle of the intersection when they go red.

I figure if people want to start complaining about bicycles running stop signs, turning right without stopping, etc and cops are going to ticket cyclist and treat us like cars under CVC, then I'll start abiding by the law to the full extent.

I'm starting to use the entire lane when passing slower cyclist, stopping at lights and stop signs and taking my time crossing the intersection. I'm not going to try to be as accomodating by helping to keep the flow of traffic moving. I'll start impeding it. My actions will be within the law.

Not exactly related, but this thread reminded of a co-worker that got a ticket for running a red light in a car, after slowing and looking both ways, at 3 AM. He went to court to fight the ticket with his defense being that that traffic signals should be considered "general guidelines" and not "strictly enforced" between the hours of 1:00 and 5:00 AM due to lack of traffic. The judge told him that sounded like a good idea and let him off, providing he didn't do it again until he got the law officially changed.

Here we go again!!

Today they got the whole Roasters group at the same spot (E. Blythedale and Camino Alto). I'm guessing around 30 riders at once this time. This intersection is turning into a regular goldmine for the city of Mill Valley.

Here we go again!!

Today they got the whole Roasters group at the same spot (E. Blythedale and Camino Alto). I'm guessing around 30 riders at once this time. This intersection is turning into a regular goldmine for the city of Mill Valley.

That was such a waste of my time / ridiculous. If I was doing something egregiously dangerous or blatantly illegal I wouldn't complain but rolling a right-hand turn in a group on a supposedly red light (I didn't actually see the light) at 5-10 mph is about the stupidest excuse for "justice" that I've ever heard of. As one guy said, there's probably a house getting burglarized right now. Took them probably an hour to issue those tickets. A stern group warning would have had the same effect to make us make sure to be careful at that intersection.

As far as I'm concerned, nothing wrong with jaywalking or running lights/stop signs on your bike, if you don't cause anyone any inconvenience.Agreed. People don't think twice about running across the street at whatever place, time, and speed they wish, but throw a bicycle into the equation, and suddenly it's a shameful, appalling act. At worst, the cyclist is putting his/herself in danger. If they're okay with that, oh well.


Today they got the whole Roasters group at the same spot (E. Blythedale and Camino Alto). I'm guessing around 30 riders at once this time.Wow, that officer must've filled his quota for the month in one day.

I'd just like to see CARS stop at reds before turning right through the cross walk close by the school where I live.
Maybe they could start by just slowing down a bit, and develop into a full stop after some practice.

burn me once, shame on you. burn me twice...

this one hurts. first thing officer mclovin says to me, was didn't i get you last week?!

yes, try telling 30 guys, that you are the only one that wants to stop at this intersection. it was safer rolling through and not causing a crash on E. Blithedale that it was to just move with the pack (red or not).

i propose a course change: make a left at the school onto sycamore, then a right on to camino alto. this way, we're only stuck at one light and we can avoid officer mclovin's donut spot.

I wish they would spend that sort of energy around here on frivolous enforcement like sound ordinance (car stereo and motorcycle), truency, 3ft rule...

Is that officer also ticketing motor vehicles that don't stop for the light at that intersection?
I heard that someone didn't stop for a right turn on red at the intersection by Logan High School in Union City, and the fine was $900.

How much is the fine for that particular Blythdale/Camino Alto rt. turn ticket?

burn me once, shame on you. burn me twice...

this one hurts. first thing officer mclovin says to me, was didn't i get you last week?!

yes, try telling 30 guys, that you are the only one that wants to stop at this intersection. it was safer rolling through and not causing a crash on E. Blithedale that it was to just move with the pack (red or not).

i propose a course change: make a left at the school onto sycamore, then a right on to camino alto. this way, we're only stuck at one light and we can avoid officer mclovin's donut spot.

That totally sucks!! Lucky for me I wasn't there this week.

I agree with the route change and will go that way from now on.

Or how about cutting through the parking lot of the gym at the corner there?


How much is the fine for that particular Blythdale/Camino Alto rt. turn ticket?


I sure it's not the same fine as flying through a red light at 50mph in a car, though it might be even though one is obviously much less dangerous to the public than the other.

I got a ticket from a photo redlight camera for coming to a literally like 0.5 mph rolling stop before making my right turn into Millbrae BART (in my car). Mind you it was like 7am on a weekend (thus no traffic).

The fine was the same as if I blew threw an intersection without slowing down. :eek:

I went to court and it was reduced to around slightly more than 1/2 the original fine.

i thought about doing that on saturday, but in retrospect, realized that i would have intersected the group right as he was yelling on his bullhorn and would have been roped in as it would have seemed like one big pack to officer mclovin. it wouldn't have made a difference.

I got a ticket from a photo redlight camera for coming to a literally like 0.5 mph rolling stop before making my right turn into Millbrae BART. Mind you it was like 7am on a weekend (thus no traffic).

The fine was the same as if I blew threw an intersection without slowing down. :eek:

I went to court and it was reduced to around slightly more than 1/2 the original fine.

I hope it doesn't get like what the ALC (Aids Life Cycle) riders do, come to a complete stop and put one foot down. :eek:

The more I think about this, the angrier I get.
If you think of a peloton as a bus, there is 1 driver and everyone else is a passenger. If the bus runs a red light, only the driver gets a ticket, not all the passengers.

If you're in the middle of a peloton running a red light, you can't very well stop, it would be very dangerous!

If I were one of those ticketed, I would try to argue that in court that only the guy leading should get the ticket. (everyone else should chip in and pay for it of course :D)

Likewise, if the guy leading stops (and the group stops as a whole), then everyone should be able to roll through, even though the guys at the back don't stop at the actual line, but several yards back, rather than every person stopping individually at the line.

I think there needs to be some peloton language written into the CVC.

If you're in the middle of a peloton running a red light, you can't very well stop, it would be very dangerous!

If I were one of those ticketed, I would try to argue that in court that only the guy leading should get the ticket. (everyone else should chip in and pay for it of course :D)


I think there needs to be some peloton language written into the CVC.

This is what I plan on arguing when I get to court. I'll roll with the pack every time.

The officer said he was doing this for our safety. The Roasters is a pack of very experienced cyclists who, to my knowledge, have never had an issue with accidents vs. cars. I'm pretty sure this was targeted for the Roasters. If they had been out there citing every group to roll through that light, they probably would have been busy citing somebody else when we came by. We were an easy target and a big juicy pack of revenue. Very efficient of them.

According to daxiang28, the bail for his first citation was around $400

I'm pretty sure that there are other States that have some sort of peloton rules written in to their laws. I plan on researching this a bit.

On the bright side, Steve and I had a great ride after we took our lumps. Since the Roasters was pretty much neutralized, we went up to Marshall and had a great workout battling the wind the whole way. It worked off some of the frustration.

According to daxiang28, the bail for his first citation was around $400

I'm pretty sure that there are other States that have some sort of peloton rules written in to their laws. I plan on researching this a bit.



:eek:

I would definitely argue that fine in court. At the very least, you should be able to get it reduced. I'd be very humble and apologetic and try not to come off as arrogant and self righteous.

Think about it, a pack of 30 cyclists is fined $12,000 for making a right turn on red. How dangerous is that compared to a car going straight through a red and paying a much lower fine.


I guess it will all come down to whether or not the judge likes or hates cyclists.

Ok headed up to Marin to deal with these tickets this AM. I'll let you know how it goes.

Ok, so this is how it works. So for those of you that just received one of those tickets, the bottom line is it's $50 after "bike safety school." It's a 2 hr free class held in Novato once a month. You pay the initial fine of $469 and then mail in proof of attendance and then you get reimbursed your fine minus $50.

For me (with two identical tickets), I am going to contest it. I can only get one of the tickets discounted and have nothing to lose contesting it. Hope this helps alleviate some anxiety over the ridiculous high "bail amount" notice that we'll all get in the mail soon.

Steve

Ok, so this is how it works. So for those of you that just received one of those tickets, the bottom line is it's $50 after "bike safety school." It's a 2 hr free class held in Novato once a month. You pay the initial fine of $469 and then mail in proof of attendance and then you get reimbursed your fine minus $50.

For me (with two identical tickets), I am going to contest it. I can only get one of the tickets discounted and have nothing to lose contesting it. Hope this helps alleviate some anxiety over the ridiculous high "bail amount" notice that we'll all get in the mail soon.

Steve

Good luck to you and all who got ticketed, it sounds like a big hassle to say the least.

Thanks Steve.

Good luck with contesting this. I've been doing a little research and have become less optimistic about the outcome.



Will we get upgrade points for attending the "safety school"? :)

I sure hope there is a lawyer around that can do some pro bono for the lot of ya', and don't forget some bike advocacy people that could argue against the targeted ticketing,

Good Luck

I don't know the area very well, but the group (Roasters?) can go to the other extreme and have everyone stop one at a time at the stop sign before turning right. Make all the cars back up and I'm sure that will cause irate drivers. The cop will probably wave you guys through the next time:lol:

yeah yeah I was thinking that too, and hasn't someone else also mentioned that?

I also like the thought of a group, a tight group, representing a large vehicle.

Looks like it's not just cyclists. (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/02/BAJE166JS2.DTL&feed=rss.matierandross) Maybe a plan to recoop for the dwindling economy? better watch our driving. :mad:

Is there anybody I can maybe hitch a ride with to the courthouse on April 6th? I'm down by Lake Merced (SFSU student) and have only my bike to get from place to place ... I'm willing to pitch in for gas money / GG toll if you'd like.

this might prove useful:

http://www.ticketassassin.com/index.html

Some excerpts:

There are many advantages to contesting by written declaration. The most obvious advantage: the officer gets paid $200-300 to show up in person at a court trial but gets paid NOTHING to complete this declaration paperwork. In my experience, about 30% of police officers fail to submit a response to the court by the deadline. If the officer does not turn in his declaration on time, your case is DISMISSED and your bail is returned. By simply contesting by written declaration, you stand a decent chance of dismissal regardless of your argument.


The legal right to a new trial has a host of advantages. If the officer does not show up at the new trial, your case is dismissed. By the time you get to a trial de novo, three to six months after you were cited, the officer may no longer remember significant facts of your case, leading to a dismissal. If the new judge at your second trial is fairer than the first judge and accepts your argument, he can dismiss the case or find you not guilty. Even if you are found guilty at your second trial, the judge can still reduce your bail and assign you to traffic school.

I contested my last ticket (speeding) by written declaration and it was dismissed.

Our group ride, on Sat, might need to pay attention here. We roll through this intersection, no?

Our group ride, on Sat, might need to pay attention here. We roll through this intersection, no?

I think someone mentioned it, you can go left at the water fountain by the school on the bikepath then right on Camino Alto, that way you approach the sting intersection stop light from across the street.