Advocacy & Safety - Choker vs Speed Table

Curb extensions are these at the crosswalks? I think they are intended for pedestrians to cross the street.
http://www.tfhrc.gov/safety/pedbike/pubs/05085/images/fig205.jpg
Pedestrian facilities however annoying should not be looked down upon.

I also found the US gove traffic calming page.
http://www.tfhrc.gov/safety/pedbike/pubs/05085/chapt20.htm


Pedestrian facilities that negatively impact cylists should not be built in the first place. I have heard my share of stories from cyclists that ran into curb extensions, not expecting them to be there. Rule number one - do no harm.

We should not have to choose between hardscape that benefits pedestrians vs. benefits cyclists, if it doesn't benefit both, it should not be built.

They could paint those curb extensions in instead of pouring them in concrete, if they really wanted to.


Thats ridiculous.

So you are not in favor of building sidewalks because they don't benefit the cyclist? I really question how hard it is to see hazards in the road way much like this. Maybe painting the curb would be benefit both the cyclist and the pedestrian.

So you are not in favor of building sidewalks because they don't benefit the cyclist? I really question how hard it is to see hazards in the road way much like this. Maybe painting the curb would be benefit both the cyclist and the pedestrian.

first of all that picture shows a curb extension/choker and a speed table, IMO that's overkill. And the only reason the curb extension stands out is because there are no sidewalks and it's fresh white concrete.

Second of all, who said anything about opposing construction of sidewalks? I think that basic sidewalks should be a feature of every road or street, please don't put words in my mouth.

:notamused:

A sidewalk doesn't encroach on the ROW in the same way a curb extension does, if it doesn't encroach in the ROW I'm not opposed to it.

I don't see anything wrong with overkill. I don't think it makes sense to force cyclists to stop or merge when motorized traffic does not have to do so. Any traffic device that does that would meet resistance from me. That's the problem with our bike paths and routes around here, many of them put an unreasonable burden on the cyclist to yield. Every time I drive, I see motorists that are deathly afraid to merge or change lanes. It's not that easy to do safely.

I was thinking about the sidewalk extension, and I think it would work great on a road near here. It is one-way and has parking on both sides. There are no stop signs, so it's used as a "short cut." (quotes because it's not a short cut). There is no reason that this small street has been made into a high speed arterial. If the sidewalks extended into the roadway to the extent of the door zone at the end of the parking spaces, the road would probably look a lot less wide than it does now.

first of all that picture shows a curb extension/choker and a speed table, IMO that's overkill. And the only reason the curb extension stands out is because there are no sidewalks and it's fresh white concrete.

Second of all, who said anything about opposing construction of sidewalks? I think that basic sidewalks should be a feature of every road or street, please don't put words in my mouth.

:notamused:

A sidewalk doesn't encroach on the ROW in the same way a curb extension does, if it doesn't encroach in the ROW I'm not opposed to it.
I will just walk away, over there on that extended sidewalk known as a curb extension.
http://www.tfhrc.gov/safety/pedbike/pubs/05085/images/fig205.jpg

I was thinking about the sidewalk extension, and I think it would work great on a road near here. It is one-way and has parking on both sides. There are no stop signs, so it's used as a "short cut." (quotes because it's not a short cut). There is no reason that this small street has been made into a high speed arterial. If the sidewalks extended into the roadway to the extent of the door zone at the end of the parking spaces, the road would probably look a lot less wide than it does now.

please tell us exactly how curb extensions would do anything to slow traffic down in this situation?

:rolleyes:

I will just walk away, over there on that extended sidewalk known as a curb extension.
http://www.tfhrc.gov/safety/pedbike/pubs/05085/images/fig205.jpg

all those curb extensions do is force cyclists to merge into traffic when they otherwise wouldn't have to.

In my experience, speed tables pose no problem for cyclists. We don't even have to slow for them, but motorists do. I love them.

Chokers work on low volume side streets, but those are generally not the streets that need calming in the first place. If they're landscaped, they look pretty, and that's the only good thing I have to say about chokers.

Roundabouts are great for cyclists and motorists, but hell on pedestrians. Blind pedestrians in particular are up in arms about them. The only way to make them safe for pedestrians is to put crosswalks with stop signs ahead of the roundabout--and that defeats their purpose for smotther traffic flow.

please tell us exactly how curb extensions would do anything to slow traffic down in this situation?

:rolleyes:

FWIW In my experience they help slow down turning traffic and help keep the side streets calm.

Curb extensions are especially hazardous at night and in the rain.

I like the calming strategy in which barriers turn residential streets into a series of dead ends for motor vehicles but allow walkers and riders to pass through unimpeded. This forces through traffic onto through streets.

I like the calming strategy in which barriers turn residential streets into a series of dead ends for motor vehicles but allow walkers and riders to pass through unimpeded. This forces through traffic onto through streets.We have a neighborhood like that here. What happened was that there was a road that was used as an arterial to get to the Penn State Campus, and had been for 50 years. The residents paid off the city council, and that road was dead ended. This is somewhat like the residents of a downtown closing off main street, and I don't think it should have been done. Some people got a big windfall in property values at the expense of everyone else in town. The traffic patterns in town were a disaster, it threw all that traffic back on the major arterial and a smaller side street that bordered the campus. So people were driving through the other parts of the same residential neighborhood as the now closed off arterial. They went back in and turned the neighborhood into a maze of closed-off streets and barriers. The thing that annoys me is that they also seem to be favored with traffic lights, so that messes up the few remaining arterials surrounding that neighborhood.

There are a couple of neighborhoods that I ride through that would probably be much better served by this approach, but I guess they aren't as blessed with powerful, rich residents.

What about zero tolerance speed enforcement on (even possibly designated) 25mph residential streets. Same concept as is applied to 15/35mph school zones.

Al

The chokers are no more effective, and no less hazzardous than a line of parked cars. Except of course they don't have doors...

I have seen some truly stupid traffic calming measures, including speed "cushions" - small raised squares that were designed so a car could pass over them, with wheels either side, thus avoiding the bump. However.... there was a wide bike lane to the left of the cushions (this was in the UK) so motorists would swing left into the bike lane to avoid the calming measure, with predictable results. This problem was "fixed" by placement of low dividers every 20 feet or so to delineate the bike lane, and cause cyclists to be unseated should they unwittingly stray from the path at the wrong moment. The dividers were black rubber half rounds, (imagine a partially submerged submarine) and invisible at night. Later, because cars also hit the dividers inadvertantly, they became unfixed and would swing loose into the road or bike lane... I levered at least one out of the road, placing it safely on the sidewalk out of harm's way.
Oh, I forgot to mention the brick speed tables, which began to crumble under the weight of traffic after a few weeks, and whoose surface was lethally slippery in wet weather.

The whole thing was truly, truly hopeless.

Prior to the calming applied to this particular stretch of road, it was a simple 2 lane road with a dashed bike lane, and a joy to use.

Ed

I'm trying to recall how many chokers I have seen with reflective treatment, and my memory is drawing a blank. Bulb outs that I have seen for sure don't have reflectors, so IMHO without reflectors these things are more hazardous then a parked car, at least at night.

I'm trying to recall how many chokers I have seen with reflective treatment, and my memory is drawing a blank. Bulb outs that I have seen for sure don't have reflectors, so IMHO without reflectors these things are more hazardous then a parked car, at least at night.

exactly!

:eek: