Road Cycling - Body position/High speed turns

Does anyone have any links to pictures showing racers in fast, tight downhill turns? I'm interested in body posturing, specifically hip position on saddle, shoulder to bar orientation, and torso lean etc..
Thanks...

Control your turn with the inside knee. Stick it out farther the faster you are going. Look where you want to go, not where you don't! Stay in the drops for more control, fingers on the brakes to modulate (not in the turn, before and after the turn).
The rest will happen automatically.

I agree with RacerX. If it helps to visualize this, imagine pointing your inside knee in the direction you want your bike to go.

Yeah, I was already aware of using my knees from riding motorcycles, but last night when I extended my knee out, I allowed my hips to roll over the saddle slightly to the outside, and I'm not sure, but it seemed to turn a little tighter. Or am I wrong on this? Do you guys keep your hips centered on the saddle or roll them?

Uh, someone else posted this, I don't know if it's real or not but here's an extreme case of cornering, note the body positions.

it might be real, but they're not moving.

Yeah, I was already aware of using my knees from riding motorcycles, but last night when I extended my knee out, I allowed my hips to roll over the saddle slightly to the outside, and I'm not sure, but it seemed to turn a little tighter. Or am I wrong on this? Do you guys keep your hips centered on the saddle or roll them?

Wouldn't that have changed the lean of the bike a little?

Seems like it was Davis Phinney that recommended keeping your inside knee tight against the top tube and actually rotating your hips a little toward the outside of the turn. However, watching pros do their crazy-fast descents, their inside knee is always pointing out.

Here's a pretty good online article: http://www.coachcarl.com/training_articles/cornering.htm

Wouldn't that have changed the lean of the bike a little?

Seems like it was Davis Phinney that recommended keeping your inside knee tight against the top tube and actually rotating your hips a little toward the outside of the turn. However, watching pros do their crazy-fast descents, their inside knee is always pointing out.

Here's a pretty good online article: http://www.coachcarl.com/training_articles/cornering.htm

Yup, I've actually read that article before. Like you state, most riders seem to point the knee, as I do. However, I've also tried resting my inside knee against the top tube per the article, and it seems to work. It's just too natural for me to point the knee, though. If I worked @ it, I'm sure I could get over this habit, but I just wonder which form is really better??????

Anyone????

I feel like there's a huge amount of mythology about turning.

All that matters is the relationship between your center of mass (COM) and the contact patch of the tires. You constantly turn the handlebars tiny amounts to keep your COM over the line between your contact patches. When you turn, your COM has to move inward to balance between centrifugal force and gravity.

When people talk about putting weight on an outside pedal, or pointing their knee, or holding their hips some certain way, or putting their weight on one side of the bars, I have to think these are at most learning tools. The only way to move your COM around is by driving the contact patches off to one side. This then causes a turn.

Of course how you hold your head may have some effect because you do have to be able to see where you are going.

:D Slvoid, I don't think I'll be trying the "rub knee on pavement" technique anytime soon (knock on wood).

I'm definately not a physicist, but after pondering a bit about shifting my hip bones toward the outside of the curve, I came up with a theory. Being the face of the tire is round, the contact patch is always facing down, up to a point right? So it doesn't really matter what angle the bike is at right? But to maintain enough friction on the tire to keep it from sliding out, the actual angle of your COM in relation to your contact patch needs to remain as vertical to the contact patch as physics allow. So, by shifting your hips toward the outside, you're actually maintaining a more vertical force to the contact patch.

Zat make sense? Anybody good with a slide rule? The only thing I'm good at sliding is my butt.

Anyway, I'm outta here. Clear skys, hardly a breeze...gee, I wonder what I could do this afternoon....Seeya

Jumping in here...

I keep my knee against the top tube when turning fast and tight. I was taught that way. For thought... the knee is going to have a limited range of motion. If you depend on the knee to change the COM and get into a increasingly tightening turn you might run out of range of motion.

I like to move my hips towards the inside of the turn laterally and fore and sometimes with a slight rotation of pelvis toward the turn and a lead with the chin if very aggressive. Most often, I do nothing more than just keep the knee on the TT and turn.

I feel like there's a huge amount of mythology about turning.

All that matters is the relationship between your center of mass (COM) and the contact patch of the tires. You constantly turn the handlebars tiny amounts to keep your COM over the line between your contact patches. When you turn, your COM has to move inward to balance between centrifugal force and gravity.

When people talk about putting weight on an outside pedal, or pointing their knee, or holding their hips some certain way, or putting their weight on one side of the bars, I have to think these are at most learning tools. The only way to move your COM around is by driving the contact patches off to one side. This then causes a turn.

Of course how you hold your head may have some effect because you do have to be able to see where you are going.

I like this point a lot. I find a lot of similarity between this point and the mechanics of turning a ski. I've earned a level III in nordic downhill (telemark) and have disected the mechanics of COM, principles of turning and their dynamic nature. They really seem to jive together and I do certainly apply my knowledge of skiing to cycling.

I've always read to keep the inside knee against the top tube in turns... its kind of a new school idea from what I understand but seems to be used by a lot of pros, for what its worth.